Dropping out

[thecgrblue]

What do you suggest for the pre-opts on the board?

Those suggestions seem fitting for those that are in school already. As you have stated you are trying to steer pre-opts away from even matriculating...so what would you say to go in to?

Unfortunately for many (myself certainly included) they educate themselves out of options. By this I mean by spending 4 years and generally earning a science degree that inherently has little real world value they (like many college degrees) are unable to find other paths than, in our context, optometry school. If OD is such a bad route then what are the options to head towards?

Your concern and points are appreciated and considered, but lack any further guidance which would surely be welcomed by any pre-opts that heed your advice. While you suggest to close a door on this future career you don't seem to point out any other doors to open.

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[q1we3]

What do you suggest for the pre-opts on the board?

Those suggestions seem fitting for those that are in school already. As you have stated you are trying to steer pre-opts away from even matriculating...so what would you say to go in to?

Unfortunately for many (myself certainly included) they educate themselves out of options. By this I mean by spending 4 years and generally earning a science degree that inherently has little real world value they (like many college degrees) are unable to find other paths than, in our context, optometry school. If OD is such a bad route then what are the options to head towards?

Your concern and points are appreciated and considered, but lack any further guidance which would surely be welcomed by any pre-opts that heed your advice. While you suggest to close a door on this future career you don't seem to point out any other doors to open.

Maybe do dentistry or go to DO school if you have given up on optometry. I am still going with optometry, a year ago I might have tried dentistry but it is too late for me. Don't have the energy or will to flush everything I did to get into optometry school down the toilet. I know there is shortage of optometrists in Canada in several undesirable provinces so I will get by. But honestly you will still make above avg. income even if it is commercial. Life is a bitch

 

[thecgrblue]

Maybe do dentistry or go to DO school if you have given up on optometry. I am still going with optometry, a year ago I might have tried dentistry but it is too late for me. Don't have the energy or will to flush everything I did to get into optometry school down the toilet. I know there is shortage of optometrists in Canada in several undesirable provinces so I will get by. But honestly you will still make above avg. income even if it is commercial. Life is a bitch

Lets not consider DO or dentistry. Those are cop out responses. In most cases DO is a route to GP or IM which donn't have the greatest outlooks either (NPs and PAs moving in on their territory). Dentistry...personally, dentistry wouldn't get me up in the morning and I will assume most SDN frequenters have made a similar decision.

I'm looking for Jason K to explain where the place to go is and why.

In your case, if you want to do something else take the extra year to do something you really want to do for the next 30-40.

 

[Jason K]

I'm looking for Jason K to explain where the place to go is and why.

What is this? Why am I supposed to be a career consultant? I'm a flashing neon sign that says "You don't know where you're going - this road does not lead to the place you think it does. Travelers, beware." That sign doesn't have directions on it to the nearest resort hotel. That's up to you to find for yourself because everyone's different.

My message is not to tell people to stay out of optometry or to leave an OD program if they're already in one. I've never once said that. For some people, the optometry that exists in reality might be just what they want - I'm not that person, but for some, that might be the case. If you're after a career that will likely have you sitting in a room somewhere doing refractions all day and not really offering anything other than the appearance of healthcare, then maybe optometry will be perfect for you. If you want to drop a couple of hundred K on an OD and end up performing the duties of a refracting tech, while you occasionally point people to the big screen TV department, be my guest. Most preoptometry students don't want that. They want what they see in today's high-momentum private offices. They're not going to get that, but they think they will. A few of them might, but most will end up in a box. What I'm saying is that most preoptometry students have no idea what optometry is going to be like for them. They're buying an optometry that is portrayed to them by those who will benefit from their entry into the profession. What you see in the window is not what you're going to get. That's what my message is. It's up to the individual to make their own decision regarding what's right for themselves.

It's like someone saying "That car you're about to buy is a lemon. It looks great from the outside and the sales team did a great job telling you how wonderful it is, but it used to be mine. The insides are old and rusted and the engine doesn't run well." Would you expect that buyer to turn around and say "Oh yeah, well then tell me, sir what car am I supposed to buy?"

 

[Jason K]

I don't think thecgrblue is asking what EXACTLY to pursue...he I think means what other ALTERNATIVES are there...

I guess there are no good alternatives, because if there were you would have easily said this.

There are plenty of alternatives. If you want to stay in healthcare, you can turn in just about any direction and find a career that’s plagued with fewer problems than optometry is right now. I’ve said before that in a theoretical world, for me personally, I’d do dentistry. Is dentistry perfect? No. Is any career perfect? No. Does that mean it makes sense to say, “Oh well, I guess since no career is perfect, I’ll just take this one that’s sinking under its own weight.” Be a smart consumer. Look at what you’re buying and stack it up against other options. Don’t just pick something because it’s in front of you and you think the cover looks nice. There are other healthcare professions that are getting even more pummeled than optometry. I’m not out here saying that optometry is crap and everything else is perfect. As I’ve said over and over - I’m not here to tell people where to go or not to go. I’m here to tell them they’re heading down a path that will very likely end in a place they don’t want to be. If the end of the path is where they want to be, then go for it.

Who knows, maybe you're just looking out for yourself by not welcoming optometrists??? A bit greedy?

I don't see khe preaching the same message as you...why is that? I mean if what you say is true, then shouldn't every OD be in agreement?

Seriously? You think I’m the only OD out there who thinks this way? You’re kidding yourself if you believe that. KHE was me 5 or 6 years ago. His posts were even more “shrill” than mine in many cases. Why the changed attitude? Did optometry change for the better? No, optometry has gotten even worse. He’s changed his mind since he was one of the lucky few that got through the cracks, the cracks that are fewer and smaller today than they were even just a few years ago. He's in a good spot now. People in good spots are more positive than those who are on a pile of crap. If most of the ODs coming out of school were heading for "good spots," I wouldn't be on here. Most of them are heading for crap, they just don't know it yet.

Thought experiment: KHE, do you think you’d be on here with your current attitude toward optometry if you had not ended up in the practice you’re in now? You wrote a while back that it was a “chance encounter” with someone that, in part, led you to your current prized OD spot. Had you never found your way into your current practice, do you really think you’d be suggesting optometry is a good bet for the future?


The odds of finding your way into a spot like that are shrinking every year at a faster rate. Make no mistake, there are plenty of ODs out there who would warn against pursuing a career in optometry. They might not be willing to actually say it to anyone other than other practicing ODs, but they’re in no short numbers. There's a lot more copies of me out there than there are KHE.

 

[Tippytoe]

I don't see khe preaching the same message as you...why is that? I mean if what you say is true, then shouldn't every OD be in agreement?

I'd say on here, there is probably a 5:1 ratio of ODs that dislike what the future holds for optometry. This is probably equal to the general OD population. Search the forums. You'll find plenty.

There are always some people in every group that are either: 'happy-go-lucky' types that would be happy working in a coal mine. Then there are the plain dumb-asses that can't read the future that is right in front of them. Then there are the straight up liars. And of course I'm sure there are some ODs that truely feel the future of optometry is super bright. They are mostly in the American Optometric Association, living off the dues of members, staying in 5-star hotels while making sweetheart deals with VSP and padding their retirement.

But most of us 'in the trenches' ODs feel the profession has been sold-out--- to vision plans, to warehouse stores, to for-profit schools, etc....... The result is obvious to anyone with a brain. Even when students visit me, I try to give them an honest assessment. But most just hear what they want to hear. And it's hard to downplay the profession in your own office. It's sort of a pride thing. It's something you've built from scratch. It's like one of your kids. You don't talk bad about your kids no matter how dumb or sorry they are.

But then again, some people still plan to vote for Obama again so.........there is no explaining ignorance.

 

[CL Doc]

I've only been in practice 20 years so I guess I don't know anything about the profession or running a business.

You see what you want to see. You have already made up your mind and you think optometry is the perfect profession for you...great, congratulations!

So why spend so much time on this forum?

 

[Jason K]

Curious as to what you think students want from Optometry?

I think you mean to say that most will end up working commercial or in a "box" (walmart?)....but, take a look at pharmacists...almost 90% of the profession is commercial!

ODs are allied health professionals...it is stupid to expect the same benefits as medical professionals...I definitely believe most pre-opts know this, so I presume they know what their getting themselves into by being an OD.

ODs are doctors. You go to school for four years, plus residency in some cases, and you spend upwards of 200K on just the doctorate, not to mention the undergraduate schooling. If you want to go through that and think of yourself on the same level as an RN or an OT, then you're right, you probably will be happy in a box acting as a spectacle prescription printer for an optical company who needs an OD in the chair to make it legal. There's nothing wrong with getting an RN. They've gat one of the toughest and most important jobs in health care, but RNs don't make the decisions, the doctor does.

Most preops envision themselves in private practice. I can say this because I've interviewed countless OD hopefuls and I asked every last one of them what they hope to do with an OD. If you think your peers are eagerly awaiting Walmart careers, you don't know them very well.

Maybe your personal situation is altering your opinion about Optometry??

My personal situation, as I've said many times, is what triggered my desire to really look into and understand the inner workings of the profession, something I don't think you can do thoroughly until you've been an OD for a while. I'm looking at the profession as objectively as possible. If it were just "me," there wouldn't be so many older, very successful ODs out there saying "Yeah, optometry was great for me, but with everything that's happened to it, I don't think new grads have a decent shot at what I have been able to achieve in my practice."

Also, dentists are surgeons...they are superior to OD's in terms of specialized skills, as such they will have less problems due to supply/demand....

They are superior in terms of doing procedures that pay well and haven't been hijacked by cheap insurances yet. They are not superior in terms of offering specialized skills. Dental school and optometry school are both 4 year programs and you'd be pissing off a lot of OD students if you said to one of them that their ride through grad school was easier than their DDS counterparts. Their position on the health professions ladder, well above optometry, has nothing to do with them having more skills than ODs, it's that they have skills that are not being undermined by their professional organizations (the AOA), crappy corporate-disguised insurance plans (VSP, Optum, EyeMed, etc), and massive infestation by corporations (Walmart, Sam's, Americas Worst, Sterling, etc). For now, you can't go into a Costco and get a crown for $100.00. That's what we do as ODs in those places. We give our services away, practically free, so a corporation can pull the "cha-ching" bar on the register a few more times a day. The profession has been commandeered by corporations that have no interest in providing healthcare, they just want to sell materials and they always need a warm OD body to do it. Given the massive oversupply of ODs and the impending increase in the rate of OD production due to the new schools, there will be no difficulty in finding warm bodies to run their script factories. That's where the profession is heading, ODs as spectacle Rx printers. If that's what you want, then an OD will be a marvelous fit for you.

 

[CL Doc]

That's understandable, but most other professions have their problems too....personally, I feel optometry is better for certain reasons. You may not agree with this, but isn't that YOUR problem and not representative of the entire profession?

Once again, a student is validating my earlier post...if you are not happy with optometry, it's YOUR problem. YOU are at fault.


The biggest cheerleaders for this profession are either:

1. Those who stand to gain from more ODs, the schools, the AOA

2. Those who seem to have little understanding of the inner workings of the profession

 

[Jason K]

That's understandable, but most other professions have their problems too....personally, I feel optometry is better for certain reasons.

Ok, I'll bite. What reasons lead you to believe that optometry is "better" than other professions. I'm actually curious because many times, the reasons people choose optometry are not founded in reality. The reasons I chose optometry seemed like logical ones:

Stable future (I read that one in the BLS.)
Good professional outlook (I read that in a few fantasy surveys put out by US News and the like.)
Good pay (I got that from the AOA and by looking at practicing ODs with established offices.)
Balanced schedule (Again, I looked at established ODs and assumed I could duplicate what they've done.)
Freedom to live in many different places in the US (I don't even know where I got this from, but it's totally ridiculous.)

All of my reasoning was founded in nonsense and thus, here I am.

So, what reasons do you think optometry is better than other options out there? I'm actually curious.

Please, for my sake, don't include one of your reasons as "I get the chance to help people." All health professions allow you to help people. Really think here. Why is optometry better?

 

[Shnurek]

Freedom to live in many different places in the US (I don't even know where I got this from, but it's totally ridiculous.)

Can you take many state tests after you get out of school? Especially the ones that say you have to have taken the boards within the last 5 years. That's what I plan on doing.

 

[CL Doc]

Can you take many state tests after you get out of school? Especially the ones that say you have to have taken the boards within the last 5 years. That's what I plan on doing.

You can take as many as you can afford.

 

[KHE]

Thought experiment: KHE, do you think you’d be on here with your current attitude toward optometry if you had not ended up in the practice you’re in now? You wrote a while back that it was a “chance encounter” with someone that, in part, led you to your current prized OD spot. Had you never found your way into your current practice, do you really think you’d be suggesting optometry is a good bet for the future?

It was a chance encounter that lead me to this particular practice. Had I not found my way into this practice, I imagine I would have found my way into a different one. For me, the issue was always about access to medical insurance plans. I was discriminated against in the early part of my career. That was enormously frustrating. That situation changed and I was able to credential myself. Once that occured, I was happy with optometry. I would have ended up either buying another practice or starting one cold.

The odds of finding your way into a spot like that are shrinking every year at a faster rate. Make no mistake, there are plenty of ODs out there who would warn against pursuing a career in optometry. They might not be willing to actually say it to anyone other than other practicing ODs, but they’re in no short numbers. There's a lot more copies of me out there than there are KHE.

You're good at making big, bold, definititve statements like that but you've got no evidence of that other than your own experience and your own bias generated by that experience.

 

[dinkus]

It was a chance encounter that lead me to this particular practice. Had I not found my way into this practice, I imagine I would have found my way into a different one. For me, the issue was always about access to medical insurance plans. I was discriminated against in the early part of my career. That was enormously frustrating. That situation changed and I was able to credential myself. Once that occured, I was happy with optometry. I would have ended up either buying another practice or starting one cold.



You're good at making big, bold, definititve statements like that but you've got no evidence of that other than your own experience and your own bias generated by that experience.

Can you talk about this? How do you get these credentials and how does it help you get access to medical insurance plans?

 

[Tippytoe]

That's understandable, but most other professions have their problems too....personally, I feel optometry is better for certain reasons. You may not agree with this, but isn't that YOUR problem and not representative of the entire profession?

My problem? That's cute. That's a Fail in many regards.

What would you say if I told you that I was financially set for life with a successful practice, real estate holdings, retirement and a fat savings account? AND I will probably be retired by the time most of the pre-opts on this site graduate from OD school.

And I still would not recommend optometry for my own kids.

So, the surplus of ODs graduating in the future doesn't affect me in the least. But I STILL think optometry is a losing endeavor for most people today because it has changed 180 degrees in the last 20 years. It's simply not what it was: A nice career where you have your own free-standing private office where you saw nice patients, got to know them and their family, treated their eye problems and sold them glasses and CLs.

Today's optometry (and certainly tomorrows even more so) is an OD sitting all day long in a 10 x 10 cubicle in Walmart, Sam's, or Target playing on the internet while waiting for a walk-in patient to come in, with a shopping car and 3 snotty kids in for a 10 minute refraction to get an spec Rx to take to the optician outside. Vision insurance will pay about $30 because they don't need to pay any more than that because there are plenty of 'workers' that will take it. Boredom and burnout result within 2 years.

There will still be a few free-standing private OD practices in the future..........but they will be rare. Much like seeing a private pharmacy today.

Family docs is what we are going to need in the future. MANY of them.

 

[Shnurek]

Can you talk about this? How do you get these credentials and how does it help you get access to medical insurance plans?

I'm just guessing, but probably moving out of New York State will help you enormously. Like I said a million times if you want to practice in highly populated areas you WILL be discriminated against.

Just as a side question KHE, did you ever do any lacrimal canaliculi cauterizations? My professor said he taught that in Connecticuit when the law passed.

 

[KHE]

Can you talk about this? How do you get these credentials and how does it help you get access to medical insurance plans?

Being credentialled onto medical plans allows you to bill medical plans for diagnosis and treatment of disease instead of just doing "routine" eye exams and hoping everyone needs glasses.

 

[KHE]

Just as a side question KHE, did you ever do any lacrimal canaliculi cauterizations? My professor said he taught that in Connecticuit when the law passed.

No. I do the silicone plugs. The number of patients that I see who would truly benefit from permanent cauterization is vanishingly small so it doesn't even make sense to have the equipment in the office.

 

[thecgrblue]

Family docs is what we are going to need in the future. MANY of them.

Yet family docs (mine and others I have shadowed) say, "Specialize specialize specialize!"

On a side note, I am noticing a number of corporations beginning to employ in-house GPs. I work for a company (that has nothing to do with the healthcare field) that employs around 3k and our GP is right down the hall from my office.

 

[dinkus]

Being credentialled onto medical plans allows you to bill medical plans for diagnosis and treatment of disease instead of just doing "routine" eye exams and hoping everyone needs glasses.

How do you become credentialled?

 

[KHE]

How do you become credentialled?

If the plan is accepting new providers, it's as simple as filling out some paperwork.

Some plans however may not accept your application because.....

1) They have too many providers of a certain specialty on the plan already.
2) They don't allow optometrists on the plan.

 

[dinkus]

If the plan is accepting new providers, it's as simple as filling out some paperwork.

Some plans however may not accept your application because.....

1) They have too many providers of a certain specialty on the plan already.
2) They don't allow optometrists on the plan.

Ah, ok. Thanks!

 

[Jason K]

It was a chance encounter that lead me to this particular practice. Had I not found my way into this practice, I imagine I would have found my way into a different one.

You can imagine it, but that doesn't make it true. Some runway model who was discovered in a shopping mall might imagine that she'd have made into the Ford modelling agency even if she hadn't been discovered, but that doesn't mean it's true. You're in a very unusual situation, not unique, but unusual. That situation, in my opinion, influences your outlook. Yes, my situation is influenced by my own situation as well. When one looks at optometry through less tinted glasses, such as those provided through the workforce studies, it becomes a little more clear who's being more influenced by their situation. As you've stated before, those studies underestimated the oversupply issue and they were still forecasting problems. It's very easy for someone who lives at the top of a giant mountain in a sprawling mansion to look down on everyone in the slums below and say "Hey, what's everyone complaining about? Life is great here on this mountain and people can move in any time!"

I would have ended up either buying another practice or starting one cold.

I can absoutely guarantee you that you would not be singing the same tune today if you had started cold. We both know that. I'm not saying you'd be living in a homeless shelter, but let's be realistic here. You know you would not be doing as well as you are today if you had to start from scratch.

You're good at making big, bold, definititve statements like that but you've got no evidence of that other than your own experience and your own bias generated by that experience.

Dude, you're starting to sound like Dori Carlson. Are you going to tell me that the ODs who have serious concerns over the future of optometry are really making a big deal over nothing and are "influenced by their own situations?" I have two studies backing up what I'm saying. You've posted some pretty aggressive statements indicating that those studies were more than adequate to describe the problems ahead and that we don't need another one to reiterate what's already known. Please don't act like I'm some weirdo in a back room making up stories that are completely unfounded. The problems I discuss are the same ones echoed by thousands of ODs across the US. There are a lot more data out there that support serious problems ahead for optometry than there are numbers to support the claim that optometry is alive and well for new grads.

 

[hello07]

"Optometry offers more." In what way? A physician is alot more marketable than an optometrist.
Tons of more opportunities than being an OD. Optometry offers flexibility to work when you want PT and how often and having alot of free time for family if you can affors to. Medicine from what I know is grueling. The work, hrs, etc..................... GL!

 

[Shnurek]

Optometry allows more free time in your schedule...that's about it when compared to an MD. MD's have A LOT more latitude with what to do with their degrees. Also only 2.7% of US Med graduates match ophthalmology. Just a tidbit if you are set on eyes.

 

[Shnurek]

If Optometry is right for you then go for it. I love it so far and I just started school this year.

 

[pinipig523]

jk you are way too negative for your own good!....


I am still waiting on what other health professions that you think are better than optometry...I am considering medicine but feel optometry offers more (besides the income, initially).

Optometry allows more free time in your schedule...that's about it when compared to an MD. MD's have A LOT more latitude with what to do with their degrees. Also only 2.7% of US Med graduates match ophthalmology. Just a tidbit if you are set on eyes.

How's that even remotely true??

I just received my contract to work in an ER (as an emergency medicine physician) and I work 40 hours a week and my yearly salary is nearly $400K a year.

If I chose to work only 20hours a week, I'd still make $200K a year.

If I chose to work 10 hours a week, I'd still make $100K a year... which is approximately a full time salary for a retail OD.

So you see, there are some cases where MD can afford more time than OD. You can work less and make similar.

I was very intrigued by optometry before I went to medical school and actively advocated it for others including my brother and my friends... so I am not a hater. I just don't get some of the comments I read on this thread.

 

[Shnurek]

1) Hmm let's see...first off I am generalizing as I am not a lawyer nor am I writing a law paper but most OD jobs are part time and most MD jobs are full-time or more, many times with hours that do not make your circadian rhythm happy, call and as in your case, EM, night shift work and being around death as well. Sure if you land a cush residency (ROAD[rad onc]) you will have a great balance of lifestyle and reimbursement but these are highly competitive and only something like 10% of US MD grads end up in them. Correct me if I'm wrong.

2) OD: 4 years of less grueling school followed by optional residency vs. MD/DO: 4 years of extremely grueling school followed by 3-7 year 60-80+ (as in neurosurg) hour residencies.

3) Your reimbursements will get shafted soon, prepare.

 

[pinipig523]

Hey pinpig, congrats on the new job/graduating

The one thing I mentioned that medicine offers more than optometry is income...that is initially. You are right in that.

But,if you make 400k, you don't really get to take home 400k. Most ods who own their own offices make more than 400k...in fact, it isn't too difficult to hit 7 figures if you put in the time etc.

All of these factors come into play when assessing optometry. I have a good idea of the issues in optometry, but I think its overly inflated by some practitioners here.

Hey GM!

Thanks!

Yeah, $400K is gross but keep in mind that I don't have the overhead that private offices/OD do. I am basically gross - income tax. Private OD are gross - overhead - income tax. Not to mention the time it takes to build a practice and the capital required to purchase the space and equipment. And the responsibility/headache of paying for staff, their benefits, etc.

So even if a private office/OD makes 7 figures, it's unlikely they take home much more than I do (I think, I could be wrong). BTW, what is the net off a 7 figure private OD gross?

Though I do agree that you guys don't have to do residency so that's an opportunity cost that I had to go through. You are very correct.

 

[KHE]

He
But,if you make 400k, you don't really get to take home 400k. Most ods who own their own offices make more than 400k...in fact, it isn't too difficult to hit 7 figures if you put in the time etc.

.

Where is that coming from? The AOAs own statistics do not bear that out. Most ODs who own their own practices do NOT make more than $400k and it is incredibly difficult to hit 7 figures unless you have a multiple location scenario with a bunch of doctors working close to full schedules for you.

 

[KHE]

You can imagine it, but that doesn't make it true. Some runway model who was discovered in a shopping mall might imagine that she'd have made into the Ford modelling agency even if she hadn't been discovered, but that doesn't mean it's true. You're in a very unusual situation, not unique, but unusual. That situation, in my opinion, influences your outlook. Yes, my situation is influenced by my own situation as well. When one looks at optometry through less tinted glasses, such as those provided through the workforce studies, it becomes a little more clear who's being more influenced by their situation. As you've stated before, those studies underestimated the oversupply issue and they were still forecasting problems. It's very easy for someone who lives at the top of a giant mountain in a sprawling mansion to look down on everyone in the slums below and say "Hey, what's everyone complaining about? Life is great here on this mountain and people can move in any time!"

.

Jason,

I'm going to have to stop reading and responding to your posts. They literally make me want to slit my own throat.

TO ALL STUDENTS AND PRE-OPT STUDENTS:

Go ahead and read what Jason posts. If you want the counterpoint, send me a PM.

 

[Jason K]

I am still waiting on what other health professions that you think are better than optometry...I am considering medicine but feel optometry offers more (besides the income, initially).

If you ask questions that have no possible answer, you may have a long time waiting. I can only answer what’s better FOR ME. For me, a far better option, in theory, would be dentistry. The profession is not perfect, but it is far less plagued by the issues that are sinking optometry. For starters, they are not being undermined by their own professional association - being sold out to corporations and their horrific insurance plans. The ADA, unlike our mighty AOA, actually acts in the best interest of the profession. The result is a profession that will be much more capable of fending for itself and maintaining its structural integrity. Corporate interests have tried to invade dentistry for years and they’ve been denied entry. Optometry said “Welcome, crappy vision plans - bring all your friends!” “Hey, while we’re at it, let’s take money from all the major optical corporations and their disguised vision plans. All we have to do is plaster their logos all over the AOA website so everyone will know just how wonderful they are for optometry’s future! Oh, and we also have to act in their best interest instead of that of private ODs, but who cares, we got cash, baby - we’re staying in 5 star hotels from now on!”

As screwed up as it is, medicine would also be a better option FOR ME. The career option are infinitely greater and you’re much more likely to avoid getting pigeon-holed into something you don’t like. Is it perfect? No, but we’re talking about what’s better than optometry. That’s like asking what cars are more reliable than a Ford Pinto. It’s not a demanding set of criteria.

Now, maybe you have an irrational fear of teeth. Maybe you’re not a person who can be around exposed blood. Maybe you don’t like the idea of a few more years of training beyond the 4-year doctorate or maybe your gpa never broke the 3.0 barrier. In that case, dentistry and medicine would not likely be better options for you.

I’ll say agin - for the LAST TIME. I’m not here to tell you what’s right for you. That’s your decision that only you can make. I’m not even telling you that optometry is wrong for you. Maybe it’s the perfect fit if you’re after what it offers these days. What I am saying is that optometry is very likely NOT WHAT YOU THINK IT IS. For that reason, many of you will be buying a profession that is very different inside than you see on its cover, and the differences are not pleasant.

 

[Jason K]

Jason,

I'm going to have to stop reading and responding to your posts. They literally make me want to slit my own throat.

TO ALL STUDENTS AND PRE-OPT STUDENTS:

Go ahead and read what Jason posts. If you want the counterpoint, send me a PM.

The truth hurts. That's not my fault. If comparing your statement about "individual situations" to Dori Carlson's claims ruffled your feathers, you walked into that one. No worries - my release from prison......I mean optometry, is approaching. I'm leaving, just like you did.

If you want to take the easy road and go into silent mode when arguing against my statements, that's your right. Just know that by presenting hopes that are unduly optimistic, you're breeding a large population of future ODs who will be returning one day - asking why they ended up right where Jason said they would. There will be a few who step into the few, precious good opportunities and take advantage of whatever it is they can provide in optometry's future. The thousands of others will end up in a box. If that's what they wanted - good for them, but most of them don't want a box. They want a practice, and they won't get it - not in optometry's future.

But,if you make 400k, you don't really get to take home 400k. Most ods who own their own offices make more than 400k...in fact, it isn't too difficult to hit 7 figures if you put in the time etc.

Moreover, as an OD you can work for yourself, whereas most mds who specialize will be working for hospitals...not bad, but there is more pride in working for your self...you've got no bosses

If there were ever two sequential statements that better illustrate my claim that most preops have a false impression of what optometry offers these days, I have yet to see them. Live the dream, GM.

 

[Tippytoe]

Damn. Students, quit throwing out stupid nonsense information.

$400,000 salary does not equal $400,000 net of a practice. The doc in private practice will only get about 30% of that $400,000 ($120,000) for his true net (take home) income.

The person getting a $400,000 salary will be paying maybe 30% in taxes which will leave them with $280,000 in NET salary to take home.

See the BIG difference.

Optometry is a red-headed step-child in the health care arena. We will NEVER have the respect, make the amount of money or have the opportunities and lattitude that MDs have. It's just a fact.

But really-- Just because you have a computer and the ability to type doesn't mean you have to wax poetic about things you know little about. Really makes you look like an idiot. Remember the two ears and one mouth thing your grandmother taught you as a kid. Apply that to the internet.

 

[Shnurek]

do you find it redundant though?

I noticed when I was shadowing there was A LOT of repetition....I got a bit frustrated at times and I wasn't even doing the exams!

Shadowing is boring as hell. Unless there's a huge screen up that shows what the doctor sees through the biomicroscope... its fun when you diagnose diseases, prescribe and explain things to patients. Unless of course you are JasonK and hate being a Doctor because "you will be explaining cataracts in your sleep."

 

[Jason K]

Unless of course you are JasonK and hate being a Doctor because "you will be explaining cataracts in your sleep."

Are you taking after netmag now, making up false claims about other posters' previous statements? I've never once talked down of repetition of health explanations in optometry. Quite the contrary - I've said repeatedly that virtually ALL doctors, except maybe pathologists and radiologists, will find themselves repeating the same thing over and over to patients. It's part of the job. Perhaps you could find where I said anything about optometry being horrible because you'll be "explaining cataracts in your sleep." Where exactly was that? Oh, that's right, I never said such a thing so basically, you're lying.

If you have to fabricate false info about others to elevate yourself because you have no other legs to stand on, though, be my guest. Just don't expect me not to call you on it. Lame, dude. Very lame.

 

[Shnurek]

Do you enjoy being a Doctor?

 

[Jason K]

Do you enjoy being a Doctor?

I enjoyed practicing full-scope optometry for the time I was able to do so. I've said repeatedly that optometry WAS a great profession when it could be practiced as such by the majority of grads. What I am doing in a corporate setting is not optometry - it's disguised as such, but it's nothing of the sort. It's script-writing for the "mothership" so the parent corporation can make money selling glasses and CLs. That's where most grads are going and that is what optometry is becoming, whether you like it or not. That goes to the core of everything I'm saying on here. Optometry is fast becoming a profession that exists primarily for the purpose of creating profit for corporations. The roles of ODs in the future will gravitate towards script-writing in large volume for lower income - the more ODs there are, the less their scripts are worth. That's what the corporations want and the AOA is basically supporting them in their drive to take over the profession. The health side of the profession is shrinking as the corporate side grows. It will probably never die out completely, but will dim to the point that it's smothered by the commercial side. The best thing you can do for yourself is to try to find a way to avoid the trap that most of your classmates will fall victim to. You've got 3.5 years to do it so I'd start hopping to it.

BTW, if you're going to quote me, have the gonads to find what I said and use the quote function. Don't just pull things out of your bung.

 

[Shnurek]

My mistake, it was Tippytoe that said that. I'm applying to military HPSP's and also I plan to go rural. I hope that it will be enough.

 

[Jason K]

My mistake, it was Tippytoe that said that. I'm applying to military HPSP's and also I plan to go rural. I hope that it will be enough.

Well, I'll give you a gold star for owning up to the misquote - more than I can say for some other posters.

 

[CL Doc]

I haven't looked at what the AOA says, but 3 of the 4 docs who I shadowed were grossing more than 500k. I don't know this for sure, but after getting detailed numbers from one practice I was able to extrapolate that to the others based on how busy the office was etc.

Once again a post by a student who doesn't know what gross income is. When you say a doctor "makes" $400,000, it is implied that you are talking about net income, not gross income.

 

[pinipig523]

Not sure what you are trying to prove....I said most of them gross over 500k. They net 35% of that (more or less depending on the dynamics of the practice)

When *normal* people say they make xx amount they are talking about gross....as taxes/overhead is variable.

Most of the private practices are like that, I have a friend who is an endodontist and his overhead is approx 65%. So his take home is approx 35%.

Now... I don't know if you still have to take out taxes from that. I'm not sure if he means take home gross or take home net.

I won't be surprised if it's take home gross, however.

Any private ODs here care to comment on that?

 

[pinipig523]

Ah those points I forgot about. Clearly, medicine is pretty much more lucrative than Optometry but there is opportunity in optometry to make a lot, or so my optometrist tells me.

I think most ods take home 35% give or take a few...but creative accounting can change how much taxes you have to pay. One of the ODs who I shadowed bought an exotic and writes of payments on that as part of a business expense

Also, I thought that physicians had to be responsible for office overhead in an hospital?

So an OD that takes home 35% (say that truly is take home gross) of $500K makes $175K.

An employee who makes $500K takes home approx $350K (married).

There's a BIG difference between running a private practice and being an employee. You cannot look at the gross revenue as the same... that's a mistake.

I think most ods take home 35% give or take a few...but creative accounting can change how much taxes you have to pay. One of the ODs who I shadowed bought an exotic and writes of payments on that as part of a business expense

Also, I thought that physicians had to be responsible for office overhead in an hospital?

Creative accounting can get you in trouble. If history has taught us anything, the only 2 sure things in life are death and taxes. Even Al Capone couldn't escape the IRS.

Your friend who writes off his exotic... wait until he gets audited.

And physicians who are employees have zero overhead (aside from malpractice, but this is usually built into the salary structure).

 

[KHE]

I haven't looked at what the AOA says, but 3 of the 4 docs who I shadowed were grossing more than 500k. I don't know this for sure, but after getting detailed numbers from one practice I was able to extrapolate that to the others based on how busy the office was etc.

If their PRACTICE was grossing $500,000, that is not a big deal. Many private optometric practices generate $500,000 in revenue.

You said in an earlier posting "most ODs who own their own office make more than 400k."

The implication of that statement is those ODs are taking $400,000 out of the practice as a salary or as personal income.

I can assure you that "most ODs" are not paying themselves $400,000.

Everyone needs to be more clear when they talk about "gross" or "net" or what OD "makes" whether they are talking about the revenue generated by a practice or what the ODs actual take home pay is.

 

[CL Doc]

Not sure what you are trying to prove....I said most of them gross over 500k. They net 35% of that (more or less depending on the dynamics of the practice)

When *normal* people say they make xx amount they are talking about gross....as taxes/overhead is variable.

What is being proven here is that you don't have a clue. You are posting all over this forum like some kind of expert, yet it seems to me you know very little about this profession.

As KHE points out, when someone says they make $400,000, that means their net income is $400,000.

The average decent solo practice grosses over $600,000. So $500k is no big deal.But the average net is only about 33% of gross.

As for your statement about buying exotic automobiles with business income, this person is asking for trouble. There are specific IRS requirements about autos for business purposes.

I know ODs who lie to the naive and gullible (yes I'm using the g word again) pre opt student who shadow them to make themselves feel better about their practices and this profession. It's already been pointed out here that many students don't know what they are getting into and posts like yours only "prove" this.

 

[pinipig523]

What is being proven here is that you don't have a clue. You are posting all over this forum like some kind of expert, yet it seems to me you know very little about this profession.

As KHE points out, when someone says they make $400,000, that means their net income is $400,000.

The average decent solo practice grosses over $600,000. So $500k is no big deal.But the average net is only about 33% of gross.

As for your statement about buying exotic automobiles with business income, this person is asking for trouble. There are specific IRS requirements about autos for business purposes.

I know ODs who lie to the naive and gullible (yes I'm using the g word again) pre opt student who shadow them to make themselves feel better about their practices and this profession. It's already been pointed out here that many students don't know what they are getting into and posts like yours only "prove" this.

Does the 33% net mean post tax or post overhead but pre tax?

 

[CL Doc]

Does the 33% net mean post tax or post overhead but pre tax?

After overhead but before personal income tax.

 

[pinipig523]

After overhead but before personal income tax.

Holy moly...

So you're telling me that if you have $500K worth of gross yearly revenue - you're looking at approx $160K that goes to the optometrist, then you take out the income tax for that bracket (add in some deductions).

You're looking at $120K if you're lucky!

You reading this Gregor Mendel? You better learn from these attendings. That's a huge learning point.

You can't even compare a private OD having a yearly revenue of $1million to an employee making $400K (post tax approx $270K). Even with $1million, the OD sees only $333K... and then subtract personal income tax and you're at $220K.

These are details that you guys need to grasp before leaping into any particular field.

 

[pinipig523]

I will say that I have noticed that the profession of Optometry is well suited for me. Indeed medicine might be lucrative initially, I feel that it can be more lucrative in the long run. The only problem I see with it are those practicing optometry who are unfit to do so. The ones who are constantly torching optometry are really bad for the profession and should just do something else....

Believe me, I'm not trying to fight.

What makes optometry better than medicine in the long run? Not necessarily for you, but in general?

 

[Tippytoe]

It's not that simple...there are many things an OD can do to make his income higher. The od who deducts lease payments for his f-car as a business expense also pays his wife an annual salary of $60k for being an office manager Mind you, his wife rarely does anything (I've been working at this practice for a year and a half and she doesn't do much) I haven't completely grasped the concept of expenses/interest and how that can increase your salary but its pretty cool how you can appear to make less but you actually end up making more. The doc who i shadowed/work for has emphasized this a lot...having a business is pretty much wonderful..it's way better than working for someone else/hospital. Also, ods arent in the same income brackets as employees...they have their own bracket as they operate a business for which they deduct taxes and are granted large exemptions...though I'm not clear about this just yet.

Truly, I may learn a couple of things here and there, and that is my intention on sdn to maybe learn more about optometry and medicine, but I doubt any of the ods who are torching optometry are willing to share the awesome dynamics of optometry with pre-opts...thats alright though, as I've shadowed well and have a good idea on what optometry entails. It's just that medicine has been on the back of my mind since forever...

Are you kidding? You've worked as a trash collector in an OD office and you think you have it all figured out. You've been embarrsed now about 5 times now with your complete lack of understanding of Gross vs Net. You blow it off as 'nit-picking' when it's one of the most imporatant concepts you need to understand. It doesn't matter how much ANYONE makes......it only matter what they bring home.

And I can almost guarantee you the wife at the office you work at does alot more than you think as an office manager. And you've seen her paychecks to know she's making $60k a year? I seriously doubt that! You don't see all the after-hours work that goes into running a private practice. And if he didn't pay his wife as an office manager, don't you think he'd have to hire another person to do the job? Do you know how much good employees are? Not the Burker King jobs you've had for minimum wage. I mean real, experienced, skilled workers?

I'm becomming more and more convinced that you are the same imeily/opt123 that was kicked off before. I just can't believe we have another ignorant student spouting the same nonsense crap over and over.

P.S. Saying you know about running an optometry office because you worked in one for a few months is like saying you can fly a airliner because you've flown across the country a few times as a passenger.

P.S.S. You only get paid a small amount for mileage ( currently $0.55/mile) for a car that you use specifically for work (ie. running between 2 office, delivering glasses). You can't bill it for driving to and from work or taking a trip to grandmas. So your exotic car theory is a FAIL too. A little easy reading so you don't go to jail one day: http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc510.html

I'm just wondering-----HOW DOES IT FEEL TO BE WRONG ABOUT 99% OF EVERYTHING YOU SAY? Are you this annoying to your family?