Dropping out

[Jason K]

That's his problem. He does NOT make arguments with articles and researched points. He makes them entirely based on his own personal opinion which he projects into every conceivable scenario.

Fail! That is NOT the problem - the problem is with optometry as a profession with a poor outlook for the majority of its professionals. Don't blame the messenger. Your arguments don't come with piles of research either. I've got inarguable, hard numbers behind me. Please don't try emily's tactics.

35K practicing ODs
20+ OD schools
400ish ODs retiring each year
2000+ entering the workforce each year, heading right for commercial

How, on Earth, does that add up to anything but other than what I've been saying?

You can claim positivity about optometry until you're "blue in the face," but it doesn't change the numbers above.

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[physicslover]

ok. im going to drop out of opt school now and sign up for a job at sears. thanks fir the advice!!! i'll let you know when im making 80,000 /yr.

 

[optom123]

Fail! That is NOT the problem - the problem is with optometry as a profession with a poor outlook for the majority of its professionals. Don't blame the messenger. Your arguments don't come with piles of research either. I've got inarguable, hard numbers behind me. Please don't try emily's tactics.

35K practicing ODs
20+ new schools
400ish ODs retiring each year
2000+ entering the workforce heading right for commercial

How, on Earth, does that add up to anything but other than what I've been saying?

You can claim positivity about optometry until you're "blue in the face," but it doesn't change the numbers above.

Do you even have any data that supports your claims?

I think KHE is right. You are merely presenting your situation as the norm.

 

[Jason K]

Do you even have any data that supports your claims?

I think KHE is right. You are merely presenting your situation as the norm.

Those numbers are hard data. There are about 35K ODs in the US. There are 20+ OD programs. There are 300-400 ODs retiring each year. There are roughly 2000 ODs slated to enter the workforce every year after the new schools start graduating students. Add that to the current oversupply problem and if you don't see the problem, you're blind to what's staring you right in the face. That's not even mentioning all of the other problems facing the profession - that's only mentioning the oversupply issue.

My situation has nothing to do with my views - that's just it, I don't allow my situation to influence my view of optometry's future. I don't project my position on what others will experience. I look at the numbers, the state of optometry, and where the profession is heading, and then I make up my mind about what's likely to come. Look at the profession, not as a hopeful optometrist, but as an objective observer, and you'll see what's right in front of you.

ok. im going to drop out of opt school now and sign up for a job at sears. thanks fir the advice!!! i'll let you know when im making 80,000 /yr.

If that's what you get from my posts, that you should "go get a job at Sears," then great, go get a job at Sears and make your 80K. If you don't realize that you deserve to get a solid profession when you pay 200K and invest 8-10 years of strenuous education, then you might as well go get that Sears job because you'll be living the same lifestyle.

You're falling right into the trap that the schools want you to fall into. Enjoy the ride.

 

[optom123]

You're falling right into the trap that the schools want you to fall into. Enjoy the ride.

You've got to be kidding me. What is this trap you are speaking of?

 

[Jason K]

You've got to be kidding me. What is this trap you are speaking of?

I've got to be kidding you? Which part of the equation do you not get - the "Optometry school costs way too much money for its return?" or "The vast majority of ODs who graduate from now on will be working in a commercial glasses mill?" Or is the "New schools are opening like Subway franchises in the mid 90s?" If that combo isn't a trap, then I don't know what is.

When you get out with massive educational debt and you find yourself envious of your friends who land a 75K FT income at Lenscrappers as you piece together 3 PT gigs at Walmart, Sam's, and VisionWorld, you'll understand exactly what the "trap" is.

Commercial dumps like AB and Sterling Optical have historically offered high starting salaries to new grads because they needed to attract them to undesirable positions. With thousands of new additions to an already jam-packed profession, the need for incentives is drying up. It's bad enough right now, I can't wait to see it in 4-6 years when people who are considering the profession now will be graduating.

 

[pinipig523]

Crap this is depressing...

 

[q1we3]

Crap this is depressing...

Yes it is for us especially pre-optometry students. But, why are you concerned about optometry. Just curious

 

[pinipig523]

Yes it is for us especially pre-optometry students. But, why are you concerned about optometry. Just curious

Family member is looking into it and I was looking into it several years ago.

 

[Meibomian SxN]

Family member is looking into it and I was looking into it several years ago.

I would not recommend Optometry to any of my family members at this stage of the game. Same goes for family medicine. Just being realistic.

 

[thecgrblue]

Would you chose any healthcare field?

P.S.-Meibomian your avatar has always given me the creeps. Haha.

 

[Jason K]

That's his problem. He does NOT make arguments with articles and researched points. He makes them entirely based on his own personal opinion which he projects into every conceivable scenario.

You confuse me, KHE. I don't understand how on ODWire, your posts are very much in line with my sentiments. You acknowledge the oversupply issue and how it's affecting the profession, the new schools and how they're affecting the profession, the dimming prospects for new grads, etc, etc. Your posts on ODwire are often very much in line with people who express extreme caution with someone considering a career in optometry. But on SDN, it's "come on in, the water's great - all you have to do is have a plan." I don't get it. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I don't understand the difference in attitude on the two sites.

As I've said before, I feel strongly that part of the reason that people considering optometry never get the "full story" is because the opinions expressed by many practicing ODs differ greatly depending on the audience.

 

[KHE]

You confuse me, KHE. I don't understand how, on ODWire, your posts are very much in line with my sentiments. You acknowledge the oversupply issue and how it's affecting the profession, the new schools and how they're affecting the profession, the dimming prospects for new grads, etc, etc. You posts on ODwire are often very much in line with people who express extreme caution with someone considering a career in optometry. But on SDN, it's "come on in, the water's great - all you have to do is have a plan." I don't get it. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I don't understand the difference in attitude on the two sites.

As I've said before, I feel strongly that part of the reason that people considering optometry never get the "full story" is because the opinions expressed by many practicing ODs differ greatly depending on the audience.

I guess I'm just bipolar. Or I have narcissistic personality disorder.

No wait.....it's bipolar. I don't have narcissistic personality disorder. But if I did, I'd have it way better than you.

 

[Jason K]

I guess I'm just bipolar. Or I have narcissistic personality disorder.

No wait.....it's bipolar. I don't have narcissistic personality disorder. But if I did, I'd have it way better than you.

So your manic side is on SDN and your depressive side is on ODWire? I'm asking a serious question. It's just an observation I've made looking at your posts on both sites. You make compelling arguments on both sides, I'm just asking .....why the difference?

 

[pinipig523]

Would you chose any healthcare field?

Is this question to the OP or in general?

For me, I'd still choose a healthcare field.

 

[KHE]

So your manic side is on SDN and your depressive side is on ODWire? I'm asking a serious question. It's just an observation I've made looking at your posts on both sites. You make compelling arguments on both sides, I'm just asking .....why the difference?

There is no difference.

Nowhere on here or odwire have I ever claimed there is no oversupply.

Nowhere on here or odwire have I ever claimed that the new schools are needed or are good for the profession.

I continue to maintain that MOST students graduating today COULD have the career of their choice IN SPITE OF THEIR DEBT LOAD if they would just get beyond their fear and have a plan. You disagree. That's fine.

 

[Jason K]

There is no difference.

Nowhere on here or odwire have I ever claimed there is no oversupply.

Nowhere on here or odwire have I ever claimed that the new schools are needed or are good for the profession.

I continue to maintain that MOST students graduating today COULD have the career of their choice IN SPITE OF THEIR DEBT LOAD if they would just get beyond their fear and have a plan. You disagree. That's fine.

There's a difference, dude. Take an objective look at some of your posts and you'll see. I'm not saying you're completely contradictory, but there's definitely a different tone. Less positive/optomistic on ODWire, more postive/optomistic on SDN. You'd never initiate a thread called "No Wonder We're Screwed" on SDN.

 

[KHE]

There's a difference, dude. Take an objective look at some of your posts and you'll see. I'm not saying you're completely contradictory, but there's definitely a different tone. Less positive/optomistic on ODWire, more postive/optomistic on SDN. You'd never initiate a thread called "No Wonder We're Screwed" on SDN.

That thread is about a young doctor making a grossly inappropriate referal so it completely backs up my argument that if young doctors actually had plan and thought about the way they practice, they could make a lot more money and be a lot more professionally satisfied instead of working in some optical shop.

Jason, instead of stalking my postings on multiple forums, why don't you just put on your big boy pants and come out of the closet?

 

[Jason K]

That thread is about a young doctor making a grossly inappropriate referal so it completely backs up my argument that if young doctors actually had plan and thought about the way they practice, they could make a lot more money and be a lot more professionally satisfied instead of working in some optical shop.

Jason, instead of stalking my postings on multiple forums, why don't you just put on your big boy pants and come out of the closet?

I'm hardly stalking - just reading.....and noticing the differences between your posting styles on the two forums. You post on a lot of the threads which I find interesting on ODWire. You also post on other threads that I never read since I have no interest in them. I have no reason to "come out of the closet." If it would benefit me in some way, I would.

On the ODWire site, you're quick to point out the flaws from anyone who posts information that suggests anything in the way of optometry being on the way up. On SDN, it's the complete opposite. If you don't see it, take a closer look at your posting styles and I think you might be surprised what you see. Half of the posts you've written addressing the optometric oversupply issue, new school issues, and other problems facing the profession, I could have written myself. The overall tone of many of your posts over there is definitely in the "optometry is screwed" mindset. There's very little of that on SDN and you tend to take the opposite "side of the plate." Again, I'm not saying that you're saying one thing on ODWire and a completely different thing on SDN, but your tone and perceived outlook is very different. Just an observation.

 

[thecgrblue]

Is this question to the OP or in general?

For me, I'd still choose a healthcare field.

It was little of both, mainly directed at Meibomian. I've shadowed the entire spectrum of healthcare providers and literally almost every single one of them would ask me, "Why on earth would you want to do this?"

Even the filthy-rich derm said he was getting pretty sick of healthcare.

I've had to take a year off from starting school and have been doing a lot of soul-searching to decide if this is really the direction I want and have just been curious what actual professionals have had to say.

 

[KHE]

On the ODWire site, you're quick to point out the flaws from anyone who posts information that suggests anything in the way of optometry being on the way up. On SDN, it's the complete opposite. If you don't see it, take a closer look at your posting styles and I think you might be surprised what you see. Half of the posts you've written addressing the optometric oversupply issue, new school issues, and other problems facing the profession, I could have written myself. The overall tone of many of your posts over there is definitely in the "optometry is screwed" mindset. There's very little of that on SDN and you tend to take the opposite "side of the plate." Again, I'm not saying that you're saying one thing on ODWire and a completely different thing on SDN, but your tone and perceived outlook is very different. Just an observation.

ODwire is a website for practicing doctors so it's a place to bitch and moan and commiserate about the hassles of practice and being an OD. Just because I bitch to other doctors on odwire about pain in the ass insurance companies or new schools doesn't mean I think "optometry is screwed" even if I write a thread titled "no wonder we're screwed."

I sometimes complain about my wife but that doesn't mean I want to divorce her or that I think my marriage is screwed or that I wouldn't marry her again.

 

[q1we3]

ODwire is a website for practicing doctors so it's a place to bitch and moan and commiserate about the hassles of practice and being an OD. Just because I bitch to other doctors on odwire about pain in the ass insurance companies or new schools doesn't mean I think "optometry is screwed" even if I write a thread titled "no wonder we're screwed."

I sometimes complain about my wife but that doesn't mean I want to divorce her or that I think my marriage is screwed or that I wouldn't marry her again.

I completely understand where KHE coming from. These forums have mostly pre-optometry students who have their heart set on being an Optometrist. Therefore, he doesn't want to be overly negative so he shares the positive of Optometry instead of trying to shatter their dreams. We need both ends of the perspective, its good to have both Jason and KHE

 

[Meibomian SxN]

Would you chose any healthcare field?

P.S.-Meibomian your avatar has always given me the creeps. Haha.

Haha, yeah I like how the optic nerve is still attached LOL.

I had a family member recently tell me they were interested in optometry or dentistry. Primarily because of their experience with getting contacts, glasses and braces.

I explained to them (in a way they could understand) that the profession is a good one and you can help a lot of people with their vision, etc. But its not a good time to become an eye doctor nowadays.

I steered them towards nursing and physician assistant, but more so nursing. I explained that nursing school is much shorter, less expensive, non-retail, non-commercial, varying hour shifts, a lot more in demand than most other health careers, very nice pay with benefits, loan forgiveness programs, expanding scope, varying scopes, etc etc.

Its just a hard reality that many pre-optometry students need to understand NOW, BEFORE they sign away for $150-$200K in loans.

Again, this forum is an excellent resource for pre-med/opt/pod/dentistry/etc students because many of us did not have this when we signed the bottom line. The glossy folders and the excitement of studying for exams/practicals can be very blinding to the hard realities facing many of these professions. I just hope some people make a better choice given the real facts.

 

[Meibomian SxN]

It was little of both, mainly directed at Meibomian. I've shadowed the entire spectrum of healthcare providers and literally almost every single one of them would ask me, "Why on earth would you want to do this?"

Even the filthy-rich derm said he was getting pretty sick of healthcare.

I've had to take a year off from starting school and have been doing a lot of soul-searching to decide if this is really the direction I want and have just been curious what actual professionals have had to say.

Its true. I have a buddy who is an orthopedic surgeon who says the same thing. The difference is that ortho surgeons are not facing the same issues as optometrists. They may be fighting with reimbursements etc, but in no way are they facing an over supply or commercialization of their profession.

The filthy rich derm may be competing with everyone and their assistant for cosmetic procedures, but certainly are not working the SAME hours as car salesman, Saturday/Sunday "gigs" and Walmart closets, just to make ends meet.

Do I love optometry? Yes, by all means. I NEVER intended to perform surgery nor work in a refracting closet with a previous McDonalds manager standing over me telling me how to practice. But this profession is not a promising one for new graduates. Not in income and not in opportunities.

You taking the year off was a very mature and sound move to make. Take the time and ask yourself which mode of optometry you see yourself working in: hospital, private practice, retail, etc. Then visit those doctors and "try" to have a real talk with them. Not many will tell you both sides. Many will sugar coat it just because "that's what you do". I remember answering this high school student "no, I don't recommend this profession". She looked at me and said then why are you working? Smh. Its hard to answer someone in that type of setting.

We really are not doom & gloom people, but when you see the state of affairs from the inside, it is what it is

 

[Tippytoe]

Its true.
We really are not doom & gloom people, but when you see the state of affairs from the inside, it is what it is

BRAVO. This might be the best, most honest post I've ever seen on this forum.
Unfortunately, some pre-opt students will call you, too, a loser. If they only knew....

 

[Meibomian SxN]

BRAVO. This might be the best, most honest post I've ever seen on this forum.
Unfortunately, some pre-opt students will call you, too, a loser. If they only knew....

I feel you. But at least they can never say 2 weeks after graduation "Hey, what's going on here?"

I'm just doing for them what I wish I had when I was making career choices, keeping it real.

 

[CL Doc]

I feel you. But at least they can never say 2 weeks after graduation "Hey, what's going on here?"

I'm just doing for them what I wish I had when I was making career choices, keeping it real.

I think is the nature of health care in general, it's a burnout field. I know people in lots of different specialties that all have lost interest in their professions. I think it takes an exceptional situation to allow you to go back to school and try something else.

Add to that the over supply, high debt, and commercialization of optometry and it doesn't look all that attractive anymore.

Also we are in serious danger of have medicare reimbursements cut because of the need to reduce the country's debt.

But here I am being too negative...

 

[Tippytoe]

I feel you. But at least they can never say 2 weeks after graduation "Hey, what's going on here?"

I'm just doing for them what I wish I had when I was making career choices, keeping it real.

Yes. Yes. Gotta wonder what I would have done if I had all these internet sites to look at back in the mid '90's.

 

[Jason K]

ODwire is a website for practicing doctors so it's a place to bitch and moan and commiserate about the hassles of practice and being an OD. Just because I bitch to other doctors on odwire about pain in the ass insurance companies or new schools doesn't mean I think "optometry is screwed" even if I write a thread titled "no wonder we're screwed."

I sometimes complain about my wife but that doesn't mean I want to divorce her or that I think my marriage is screwed or that I wouldn't marry her again.

Deleted

I really don't think ODWire is a site for ODs to come and bitch and moan about optometry, it just has turned into that because of all the problems that the profession is facing. It was not started as a complaint box for ODs.

The quote above illustrates my point. You will take the offensive stance against the few clueless posters on ODWire who come on and post ridiculous ideas like the concept that there is no oversupply of ODs in the US right now. If I read many of your posts out of context, I'd never believe the same person wrote many of the posts you make on SDN. Again, it's attitude, not necessarily written words that make the difference. I'd never claim that you don't admit to the oversupply issue or that new schools are a problem, but you still hold onto the notion that optometry is a great prospect for people right now. I don't think I'd ever see you make that claim on ODWire. It just goes to prove my point that preoptometry students are rarely given the "raw" truth by practicing ODs. It's often softened up and a little sugar-coated because people sometimes just don't want to be the bearer of bad news, especially when there's a wide-eyed, excited pre-OD asking questions about the great profession of optometry.

In your case, I don't think the "softening" is really sugar-coating as much as it is wishful thinking. You're thinking that there are a few people out there who will have the right "stuff" to get an OD and somehow find their way into a successful practice. I'm not going to disagree that there might be one or two in each class who will do just that, but the rest will only meet the inevitable end that is a commercial box somewhere. You can say "Well, that's not my problem, that's the fault of the people who enter without a plan..." but really, you're inviting them in whether you know it or not. The "excess" that spills over the already full bowl of optometrists will only serve to further sink the profession.

People can argue, scream, yell, and complain all they want about the pop-up OD programs starting up all over the US, but the fact is, if there are students getting suckered into paying the tuition, the schools will remain. The only thing that can reverse the process is to educate students about the realities of the profession BEFORE they choose the path.

I'll stand by my claim that your posts on ODWire are very different in tone than those on SDN. On ODWire, you speak out against those who would talk down about the many issues facing optometry. On SDN, you pick apart those who come to point out the weaknesses of the profession and its very grim future. It just goes to show how practicing ODs will almost always hide the real truth to some extent, from those who would show interest in the profession. Until practicing ODs become comfortable exposing the problems to the public and making it known that the career prospects are not what the AOA and the schools would appear to be, the unstoppable corporate machine will continue to feed on new grads, growing ever larger.

Whether you realize it or not, you're influencing a lot of pre-ODs and I'd bet a lot of them are choosing to pursue a career in optometry based partially on the positivity you're putting out there. You may think it's being interpreted with a balanced perspective, but all they're hearing is the part they want to hear, "Optometry is an awesome career with an awesome future for all who enter, as long as you have a plan." It isn't.

I just don't understand how someone can be so vehement in acknowledging the oversupply issues and the problems created by even more programs starting up, and at the same time, open the "welcome mat" for all who would be interested in the profession. Right now, one of the things that could save the profession, in addition to several other steps, would be to stop the constant flow of thousands of excess ODs into the already heavily saturated market. That will never happen unless optometry, as a profession, wakes up and starts to "air out" its problems. It won't happen until large groups of us stand up and say:

"Hey, optometry is a great profession, but we just don't need any more ODs for a while. We need to let things stabilize, regroup, and then maybe in the future, we'll need more practitioners. Until then, we're full."

On ODWire, you have asked why the AOA couldn't make a statement such as the one I just wrote, in order to lessen the heavy flow of OD students into the system and increase public awareness that optometry is "full." Why would you want the AOA to post that information, but you're not willing to say it yourself on SDN?

We're all entitled to our own views and I get that, but I don't see how it's possible to be so encouraging of new prospects and so against more ODs at the same time. One thing I think nearly all ODs can agree on is that there are too many of us right now. If we continue to add more into the population, the problems we face as a profession will only continue to get worse. I don't think there are many practicing ODs out there who would disagree with me on that point.

 

[KHE]

Jason (or whatever your name is),

I would appreciate it if you would not quote my postings from odwire on here.

Again, odwire is a forum for optometrists. Much of what is on there is not meant for general public consumption. ODwire forums are not picked up by google searches whereas SDN forum postings are. Since I use my actual name on odwire and it's pretty obvious who I am here on SDN since my interview is posted and my initials are right out here in front of God and everyone, my identity is no secret. However, I'd prefer to be able to keep posting on odwire comfortably without having to worry about some mystery man cross posting what I say on there all accross the internet.

The posting you have quoted was in response to another doctor who applauded the current manpower study. My posting was pointing out that we already have that study.

My initial thought was to delete your posting here but I'm going to let this one stand because everything I have said there in the posting you've quoted I have said also on here and I've said it with the same vigor, if you go back and search my postings.

I have never ever claimed that there is not an oversupply of optometrists nor have I ever claimed that the opening of any of the new schools will be a net positive for the profession.

 

[Jason K]

Jason (or whatever your name is),

I would appreciate it if you would not quote my postings from odwire on here.

Again, odwire is a forum for optometrists. Much of what is on there is not meant for general public consumption. ODwire forums are not picked up by google searches whereas SDN forum postings are. Since I use my actual name on odwire and it's pretty obvious who I am here on SDN since my interview is posted and my initials are right out here in front of God and everyone, my identity is no secret. However, I'd prefer to be able to keep posting on odwire comfortably without having to worry about some mystery man cross posting what I say on there all accross the internet.

The posting you have quoted was in response to another doctor who applauded the current manpower study. My posting was pointing out that we already have that study.

My initial thought was to delete your posting here but I'm going to let this one stand because everything I have said there in the posting you've quoted I have said also on here and I've said it with the same vigor, if you go back and search my postings.

I have never ever claimed that there is not an oversupply of optometrists nor have I ever claimed that the opening of any of the new schools will be a net positive for the profession.

I've deleted your post and I'll certainly agree to not posting your quotes from ODWire if that's what you want. My intention was not to somehow try to "expose" you of anything, but rather to make you aware of the differences in your posting styles and attitudes on the two sites. If you don't want your posts quoted on here, I can understand that, although I didn't see anything in there that would be incriminating for any reason. There have been many other postings and even threads that were started on SDN with posts taken directly from ODWire so it didn't seem like an undue stretch to me. Now, if someone were to have, I don't know, posted an entire thread from ODWire.......that might seem like a bit of a stretch.

I'll stand by my claim, though. Your posts differ vastly in attitude on the two sites. As I said before - I've never claimed that you say one thing on ODWire and something completely different on SDN, but the attitude difference shows.

Mostly, I'm confused why you would be so outspoken about the oversupply issue and the opening of new schools on ODWire, and so welcoming to new additions on SDN. It just doesn't make any sense to me. My reason for posting these questions to you is merely to try and gain an understanding of how someone can seemingly argue both sides of the plate saying: "We don't any more ODs and more ODs will certainly hurt the profession, but come on in, it's an awesome profession with great potential."

Maybe if more of the realities of optometry were "picked up by Google," we wouldn't be in the mess we're in. For whatever reason, our profession likes to hide it's garbage from the world. It leaves a giant opportunity for those who would profit from hiding the dark side of the profession. Unfortunately, the people who will pay the biggest price are the ones who are never exposed to the truth. Oh, and the other 35K practicing ODs in the US.

You can say that your standpoints are equivalent on both sites, but they're really not. Take an objective look and I think you'll see what I mean.

 

[q1we3]

Jason you want to know the truth about most optometry students. The truth is most of the optometry students don't mind working for walmart and refracting all day as long as they make 80k-90k. They already are preparing for this. This is their expectation from this profession. So, you saying that there will be no private practice opportunities doesn't affect them one bit. Most of the students know deep down commercial optometry is waiting for them. The student that interviewed me at NECO said he doesn't mind at all to be working in commercial optometry as long it is decent money. The culture has changed since you graduated, students don't expect much from optometry anyways. Sad but true.

 

[q1we3]

You really need to speak for yourself.

Most people, unlike yourself, want to practice in a private practice.

Also, you're reasoning is very flawed and sad. So because a NECO student interviewer said he doesn't mind working commercial you somehow concluded that most students will want to work commercial too?

Check my previous threads/posts, I am probably the only one on this forum who tried to make a informative/ very detailed budget about starting a practice cold. So, it would help fellow students get an idea of how much it takes to start a practice and ask questions. It is called "budget required to start a practice cold". Read that and it might help you. Your welcome!

 

[KHE]

I've deleted your post and I’ll certainly agree to not posting your quotes from ODWire if that’s what you want. My intention was not to somehow try to “expose” you of anything, but rather to make you aware of the differences in your posting styles and attitudes on the two sites. If you don’t want your posts quoted on here, I can understand that, although I didn't see anything in there that would be incriminating for any reason. There have been many other postings and even threads that were started on SDN with posts taken directly from ODWire so it didn’t seem like an undue stretch to me. Now, if someone were to have, I don't know, posted an entire thread from ODWire.......that might seem like a bit of a stretch.

I’ll stand by my claim, though. Your posts differ vastly in attitude on the two sites. As I said before - I’ve never claimed that you say one thing on ODWire and something completely different on SDN, but the attitude difference shows.

Mostly, I’m confused why you would be so outspoken about the oversupply issue and the opening of new schools on ODWire, and so welcoming to new additions on SDN. It just doesn’t make any sense to me. My reason for posting these questions to you is merely to try and gain an understanding of how someone can seemingly argue both sides of the plate saying: “We don’t any more ODs and more ODs will certainly hurt the profession, but come on in, it’s an awesome profession with great potential.”

Maybe if more of the realities of optometry were "picked up by Google," we wouldn't be in the mess we're in. For whatever reason, our profession likes to hide it's garbage from the world. It leaves a giant opportunity for those who would profit from hiding the dark side of the profession. Unfortunately, the people who will pay the biggest price are the ones who are never exposed to the truth. Oh, and the other 35K practicing ODs in the US.

You can say that your standpoints are equivalent on both sites, but they're really not. Take an objective look and I think you'll see what I mean.

I don't know what more you want me to say, Jason. I've said on here repeatedly in many threads that there is an oversupply and the new schools are not needed.

How about this.......

THERE IS A CURRENT OVERSUPPLY OF OPTOMETRISTS AND THERE WILL CONTINUE TO BE FOR THE FAR FORESEEABLE FUTURE AND THE OPENING OF NEW SCHOOLS WILL ONLY MAKE THAT OVERSUPPLY WORSE!

Does that satisfy you?

 

[hello07]

Well said! If any OD in any of the 50 practicing states is a AOA member I suggest you cancel your moembership do not pay 2011 AOA dues. If you have already paid for this year- stop it for next! You want to send out a message clear tot he AOA ? Hit them where it hurts the most. Their pockets. There was absolutley NO REASON to open up another 3 schools and 1 more on its way.
From my understanding, they have lost thousands of AOA members already.

 

[Jason K]

I don't know what more you want me to say, Jason. I've said on here repeatedly in many threads that there is an oversupply and the new schools are not needed.

How about this.......

THERE IS A CURRENT OVERSUPPLY OF OPTOMETRISTS AND THERE WILL CONTINUE TO BE FOR THE FAR FORESEEABLE FUTURE AND THE OPENING OF NEW SCHOOLS WILL ONLY MAKE THAT OVERSUPPLY WORSE!

Does that satisfy you?

Not really. You didn't answer the question I asked. You only pointed out a fact which I already acknowledged that you completely agree with. I asked you how you can state, so emphatically, that there is a serious oversupply problem on ODWire (and now SDN), and yet you still are comfortable welcoming new ODs into the pipeline so warmly on SDN. It just doesn't make sense to talk openly about a serious oversupply problem and then be so encouraging of people entering the profession. What is not puzzling to me is why you don't seem to share the same optimism on ODWire. I'll say it again; I've never said that you are oblivious to the oversupply problem so I'm not sure why you felt the need to go to 50 pt font for that statement, but I'm not complaining. The more the oversupply problem is made known, the better.

 

[KHE]

Not really. You didn't answer the question I asked. You only pointed out a fact which I already acknowledged that you completely agree with. I asked you how you can state, so emphatically, that there is a serious oversupply problem on ODWire (and now SDN), and yet you still are comfortable welcoming new ODs into the pipeline so warmly on SDN. It just doesn't make sense to talk openly about a serious oversupply problem and then be so encouraging of people entering the profession. What is not puzzling to me is why you don't seem to share the same optimism on ODWire. I'll say it again; I've never said that you are oblivious to the oversupply problem so I'm not sure why you felt the need to go to 50 pt font for that statement, but I'm not complaining. The more the oversupply problem is made known, the better.

There is an oversupply of restaurants and you can still make a good living in the restaurant business if you plan well.

There is an oversupply of lawyers and you can still make a good living in the legal profession if you plan well.

There is an oversupply of computer programers and you can still make a good living in the computer field.

My goal is to help people avoid the mistakes that I made so that they can get themselves where they want to go in this profession. In your case, you want to help people avoid making the "mistake" of choosing optometry as a career. Well, if you view that as a mistake then you can keep on preaching, Jason. I don't view it as a mistake personally.

You say that optometry is impossible to succeed at for all but the rarest or the luckiest of graduates. I don't agree with that.

 

[Jason K]

There is an oversupply of restaurants and you can still make a good living in the restaurant business if you plan well.

There is an oversupply of lawyers and you can still make a good living in the legal profession if you plan well.

There is an oversupply of computer programers and you can still make a good living in the computer field.

My goal is to help people avoid the mistakes that I made so that they can get themselves where they want to go in this profession. In your case, you want to help people avoid making the "mistake" of choosing optometry as a career. Well, if you view that as a mistake then you can keep on preaching, Jason. I don't view it as a mistake personally.

You say that optometry is impossible to succeed at for all but the rarest or the luckiest of graduates. I don't agree with that.

If you are so welcoming of large numbers of new graduates, then you can't honestly believe there's an oversupply problem. The definition of an oversupply problem is when you have TOO MUCH of something. That means, it makes no sense to welcome more into the field when there's already too many. Just because there's the possibility that a few lucky souls who "have a plan" can carve out a decent living does not mean it makes sense to flush an entire profession down the toilet simply because it's there and there are people gullible enough to enter it "with a plan."

I'll ask it again. Why do you want the AOA to come out and say "We don't need any more optometrists" when you're on SDN saying "come on in?" It makes absolutely no sense.

You're in a great spot for yourself, but by welcoming in thousands of new practitioners in a time when we need thousands less, I'd argue that you're contributing to the oversupply problem just as much as the AOA who won't admit there's a problem.

We don't need a single additional OD in the US right now. By welcoming the few souls that will make their way through the cracks, you're welcoming in thousands more who won't, and you're only helping to sink the profession beyond the point of no return.

As I've said before and you've agreed, most new grads will end up in the commercial mills getting paid crap for being nothing more than script writers. A few will make it through the gauntlet, most won't, and the ones that don't make it will further sink the profession. There's really no argument against that.

 

[KHE]

If you are so welcoming of large numbers of new graduates, then you can't honestly believe there's an oversupply problem. The definition of an oversupply problem is when you have TOO MUCH of something. That means, it makes no sense to welcome more into the field when there's already too many. Just because there's the possibility that a few lucky souls who "have a plan" can carve out a decent living does not mean it makes sense to flush an entire profession down the toilet simply because it's there and there are people gullible enough to enter it "with a plan."

I'll ask it again. Why do you want the AOA to come out and say "We don't need any more optometrists" when you're on SDN saying "come on in?" It makes absolutely no sense.

You're in a great spot for yourself, but by welcoming in thousands of new practitioners in a time when we need thousands less, I'd argue that you're contributing to the oversupply problem just as much as the AOA who won't admit there's a problem.

We don't need a single additional OD in the US right now. By welcoming the few souls that will make their way through the cracks, you're welcoming in thousands more who won't, and you're only helping to sink the profession beyond the point of no return.

As I've said before and you've agreed, most new grads will end up in the commercial mills getting paid crap for being nothing more than script writers. A few will make it through the gauntlet, most won't, and the ones that don't make it will further sink the profession. There's really no argument against that.

*sigh*

Jason, I"m not "welcoming" anyone. I'm not saying "come in in." I'm certainly not "welcoming large numbers of new graduates."

I would like the AOA to issue that statement because I believe we do not need more optometrists.

But the fact is, we continue and will continue to have large numbers of graduates. Whether they are needed or not is not really relevant once they decide to pursue this profession and are in school, just like an unneeded lawyer enteres law school. They are there. I'm trying to help them get where they want to go once they are done.

You're saying "neener neener, you're screwed."

 

[Jason K]

*sigh*

Jason, I"m not "welcoming" anyone. I'm not saying "come in in." I'm certainly not "welcoming large numbers of new graduates."

I would like the AOA to issue that statement because I believe we do not need more optometrists.

*double sigh*

That's just it - you ARE welcoming in thousands of prospects, you just don't realize it. KHE, OD prospects come on this site without knowing much of anything about optometry. Even the ones that think they "know optometry," don't really know much of the realities. Working in a Lenscrafters or even a private office can give you insight, but it doesn't give you much beyond a cursory glance. Maybe if someone's mother or father owns an office, they might get a little deeper, but the vast majority of these applicants have absolutely no idea what they're getting into. They can't know since the information is not readily available and you really have to live it before you can understand it. As with many things in life, one has to go on the advice given by those who have gone before them.

But the fact is, we continue and will continue to have large numbers of graduates. Whether they are needed or not is not really relevant once they decide to pursue this profession and are in school, just like an unneeded lawyer enteres law school. They are there. I'm trying to help them get where they want to go once they are done.

Most of the preODs on here don't come on to learn about optometry, they come on to justify their decision to pursue it as a profession. They're already biased towards choosing the profession. All they need is one person who says "Optometry is a great bet for the future." It doesn't matter if there are 10 ODs telling them "Don't do it, you'll regret it...." If there's one guy saying "Hey, you can do it, just like I did," that's all it takes. Saying "Oh well, they've already made up their mind so I'm not going to burst their bubble" doesn't seem like the responsible thing to do. After I made my decision to enter optometry, if someone had pulled me aside and told me of all the negatives looming, I would have run the other way - fast. You may think you're message is only being heard and understood by the few that have the proper motivation, business sense, and plain luck that it will take to get out of school with an OD and avoid the commercial trap that is getting larger and larger with each new graduating class.

Several of us have compared the entry into the optometric profession these days as a high school kid who commits to going into the NFL. There are low odds of success, but a few will make it. The difference is, a kid who sets his sights on the NFL has a shot at something else when the football thing doesn't work out. It doesn't cost 200K+ and many years of difficult schooling to "try out." You're not committed to football if it doesn't work out. If you end up with the consolation prize in optometry, it's yours to keep. With education being as expensive as it is these days, career changes, after spending so much time and money, are not going to be easy and many ODs are dealing with the reality today.

All I'm saying is, whether you know it or not and whether you intend it to or not, your message is effectively welcoming thousands upon thousands of new optometrists into a profession that can't support them right now. This is why I keep harping on your previous request for the AOA to make a statement of "fullness." If you want the AOA to tell people we don't need any more optometrists, shouldn't you do the same, not only by a sentence on one or two posts, but by your overall attitude? You can post a one-liner saying "Yeah, we've got too many ODs," but if the rest of your posts and your overall attitude don't reflect that sentiment, people are going to hear what they want to hear.

Few people disagree that one of the best things that can happen to save the profession is for the numbers of new entries to drop dramatically. As a group, if practicing optometrists believe there's an oversupply issue that's hurting the profession, then we should be screaming it from the rooftops instead of bitching to each other on ODWire and in private conversations. As soon as the public is entered into the equation, suddenly we don't want anyone to know about the problems. Until the profession collectively says, in public, "We don't need anymore ODs," the profession is simply going to wander further and further into the commercial abyss. You really can't tell me I'm wrong when I say that most of the people entering the profession these days will be funneled right into commercial. We both know it's true. That a few of them will end up in one of the very limited "good seats," does not justify the destruction of the profession. Every additional OD that enters optometry school is one notch tighter on the noose around the private practice side of the profession. It's disappearing right before our eyes. I understand that your practice and other high-momentum offices will be fine for the foreseeable future, but most OD private offices are not so fortunate. They're vanishing, little by little, and they won't return after they're replaced by the commercial side.

You're saying "neener neener, you're screwed."

I'm absolutely not saying this at all. I'm saying, "Optometry is screwed - and if you enter it right now, you will probably be screwed too because the problems facing the profession are drowning it slowly, but at an ever increasing pace." There's a big difference.

 

[CL Doc]

Most of the preODs on here don’t come on to learn about optometry, they come on to justify their decision to pursue it as a profession. They’re already biased towards choosing the profession. All they need is one person who says “Optometry is a great bet for the future.” It doesn’t matter if there are 10 ODs telling them “Don’t do it, you’ll regret it....” If there’s one guy saying “Hey, you can do it, just like I did,” that’s all it takes.

After several years of watching this forum I have come to the same conclusion. Most of the students posting here have already made up their minds and anything negative about the profession is a trigger for the "your practice must really suck" or "you're a total failure" response.

Tell them what they want to hear and you're a really great doctor. Tell them something else and you're a loser. No one really wants to discuss the problems with the profession honestly.

Also seems the less qualified a student is the more optimistic they are about the profession. Hmmm.

 

[KHE]

*double sigh*

That’s just it - you ARE welcoming in thousands of prospects, you just don’t realize it. KHE, OD prospects come on this site without knowing much of anything about optometry. Even the ones that think they “know optometry,” don’t really know much of the realities. Working in a Lenscrafters or even a private office can give you insight, but it doesn’t give you much beyond a cursory glance. Maybe if someone’s mother or father owns an office, they might get a little deeper, but the vast majority of these applicants have absolutely no idea what they’re getting into. They can’t know since the information is not readily available and you really have to live it before you can understand it. As with many things in life, one has to go on the advice given by those who have gone before them.

So now I'M the cause of the oversupply since I'm welcoming "thousands of new graduates?" I didn't realize I had that kind of power. Don't tell my wife.

Most of the preODs on here don’t come on to learn about optometry, they come on to justify their decision to pursue it as a profession. They’re already biased towards choosing the profession. All they need is one person who says “Optometry is a great bet for the future.” It doesn’t matter if there are 10 ODs telling them “Don’t do it, you’ll regret it....” If there’s one guy saying “Hey, you can do it, just like I did,” that’s all it takes.

If that is true, then those students are simply God damned idiots. Anyone who would seek out information from whatever source, get 10 negatives and one positive and then go through with it is a *****. You generate enough negativity for 20 people so if people read your posts and still decide to go, I can't help them there.

Saying "Oh well, they've already made up their mind so I'm not going to burst their bubble" doesn't seem like the responsible thing to do.

So what is the responsible thing to do then? Harp on them over and over again that they're doomed to a life of Walmart or trying to help them get where they want to go?

Several of us have compared the entry into the optometric profession these days as a high school kid who commits to going into the NFL. There are low odds of success, but a few will make it. The difference is, a kid who sets his sights on the NFL has a shot at something else when the football thing doesn’t work out. It doesn’t cost 200K+ and many years of difficult schooling to “try out.” You’re not committed to football if it doesn’t work out. If you end up with the consolation prize in optometry, it’s yours to keep. With education being as expensive as it is these days, career changes, after spending so much time and money, are not going to be easy and many ODs are dealing with the reality today.

That's a terrible analogy. The odds of making it to the NFL are about 1 in 500,000. The odds of having a professionally satisfying career as an OD are slightly higher than that.

You keep saying how hard it is to be successful in this field Jason yet again....you freely admit that you yourself did just about everything you could possibly do the wrong way. By your own admission, you took out massive loans. You've limited yourself to a very small, saturated market place.

All I’m saying is, whether you know it or not and whether you intend it to or not, your message is effectively welcoming thousands upon thousands of new optometrists into a profession that can’t support them right now.

Again....I think you give me too much power.

This is why I keep harping on your previous request for the AOA to make a statement of “fullness.” If you want the AOA to tell people we don’t need any more optometrists, shouldn’t you do the same, not only by a sentence on one or two posts, but by your overall attitude? You can post a one-liner saying “Yeah, we’ve got too many ODs,” but if the rest of your posts and your overall attitude don’t reflect that sentiment, people are going to hear what they want to hear.

How about this Jason.....I'll make my sig file say "There is a current oversupply of optometrists that is projected to last for the foreseeable future." That way, I'll be effectively saying it with each and every one of my postintgs. Would THAT finally satisfy you?

Or would the only thing that will satisfy you be if I turn into you and post multiple, tortuously long essays about how 99.9% of graduates WILL hate optometry and WILL end up in Walmart and WILL regret their decision and WILL languish in a life of misery forever and ever, amen.

I'm absolutely not saying this at all. I'm saying, "Optometry is screwed - and if you enter it right now, you will probably be screwed too because the problems facing the profession are drowning it slowly, but at an ever increasing pace." There's a big difference.

I fail to see the difference but whatever....you will continue preaching your shrill negativity. That is your perogative. I would only hope that students look at your story as a lesson in what NOT to do.

 

[Tippytoe]

After several years of watching this forum I have come to the same conclusion. Most of the students posting here have already made up their minds and anything negative about the profession is a trigger for the "your practice must really suck" or "you're a total failure" response.

Tell them what they want to hear and you're a really great doctor. Tell them something else and you're a loser. No one really wants to discuss the problems with the profession honestly.

Also seems the less qualified a student is the more optimistic they are about the profession. Hmmm.

Tis true. Most are on here to 'join the club' and chat about who's going to this school and how high was your GPA?'. They ignore the realities we present them. But on the flip side, many are probably thinking "well what else am I supposed to do, work for $7/hr at the car wash or use my biology degree to try to get a $25,000 job at the post office"?

What really disturbs me is the lack of respect many bring to this forum. As a teen or 20-something, I would have never thought to disrepect any authority figure, be in a doctor or teacher or police officer. Maybe it's a generational thing with today's youth growing up with crap like MTV's "The Real World" and Jerry Springer and other crap that makes them think it's not only okay but normal to behave like an idiot.

I see many 16-25 year olds in my practice. I make a habit of asking them what they do. About 30% say they go to school. A few say they work. The rest do absolutely nothing. They, as one 19 year old guy yesterday told me, "I'm just hanging out right now". Mommy and daddy foot the bill for them to 'hang out' in their bedroom and play video games all day. I can't imagine that. I kicked my 18 year old at when he turned 18 and thought he could sit around and do nothing. I started working 2 jobs when I was 15 and never stopped. Worked all the way thorough OD school. It was normal and expected in the early '80's that teens worked. (I'm 'only' 42 now )

There certainly is an entitlement mentality and that's probably where the commercialism in optomety comes into play. They want it and want it NOW. Sad really.

 

[KHE]

Jason.....I want to ask you something. (I'll probably regret this.)

Let's assume that you're dealing with a person who has already completed their first or second year of optometry school.

Would you tell them to drop out?

If not, as someone who is clearly not satisfied with your career, what advice would YOU give them to try to get them where they want to go?

 

[Jason K]

So what is the responsible thing to do then? Harp on them over and over again that they're doomed to a life of Walmart or trying to help them get where they want to go?

Maybe it is just that simple. If all of the ODs who post their negativity (much of which is far worse then mine) on ODWire would post on SDN, maybe that would[u/] be the responsible thing to do. Instead, many ODs admittedly sugar-coat things when they talk to prospective students. I love hearing "Well, I went to observe with this OD who's owns a 35 year old practice that's doing really well....he recommends optometry." How many older, successful ODs out there are quoted on ODWire saying "Optometry was great for me, but I would never do it again." I'd bet when those guys talk to preOD students, they leave that last part off. Of course he does. His office has no bearing on the future of optometry. It's like looking into a time machine from 20 years ago. All I'm saying is, your attitude seems to be one of "Well, there's a few out there that will make out ok. As for the rest of them, if they're dumb enough to go to optometry school, then they get what they deserve. The problem is, they don't get what they deserve. What they deserve is someone telling them that optometry is not the bet that they think it is. If all the practicing ODs out there who feel just like I do would actually speak up and say to prospective applicants what they say to each other over and over, maybe the process would reverse itself.

There are no checks and balances in optometry unlike other health professions - none at all. Virtually the entire profession sits back and says "Well, we got ourselves into a real mess here....there's waaaaaaaay too many of us....hmmmm...what to do? I guess we'll all just sit around and complain on a private OD-only forum that the AOA doesn't do anything, the schools are out for profit, and the students have no idea they're entering a profession that doesn't need them and can't support most of them." But when it comes time to actually try to solve the problem, we say "Whatever, let ‘em come on in" or "What difference does it make, the new schools are coming either way." The problem is, the profession's lack of action is going to lead to its ultimate demise. That's why we are where we are and that's why we're going to transform the profession into something it should never be again - a profession that's almost entirely about materials and not much to do with health care.

That's just the point I'd like to clarify. I don't let my situation dictate my opinion of the profession's outlook. It's what caused me to start looking, in detail, into the real problems that optometry faces, but it's not the reason I feel the way I do. The reason I feel the way I do is a large set of inarguable circumstances that will lead to the downfall of the profession unless we start to get it under control. Please don't act like I'm the only OD out there who thinks the way I do. There are far more copies of me out there than there are you, that's the reason I'm on here. It should[u/] be the other way around if the profession were a solid investment.

The odds of making it to the NFL are about 1 in 500,000. The odds of having a professionally satisfying career as an OD are slightly higher than that.

Now it looks like we're finally in agreement on something.

You keep saying how hard it is to be successful in this field Jason yet again....you freely admit that you yourself did just about everything you could possibly do the wrong way. By your own admission, you took out massive loans. You've limited yourself to a very small, saturated market place.

I did everything wrong? I did everything that most OD students will do; they'll rack up a ton of debt which they really have little control over if they're going to actually pay tuition and live on human food with a roof over their head. Remember my crack ***** neighbor? You don't live next to one of those if you're living above your means as a student. I don't argue that I spent foolishly, but it was the purchase of the OD that was the mistake, not my financial decisions once I chose to get the degree.

How about this Jason.....I'll make my sig file say "There is a current oversupply of optometrists that is projected to last for the foreseeable future." That way, I'll be effectively saying it with each and every one of my postintgs. Would THAT finally satisfy you?

That would be a giant step in the right direction.

Or would the only thing that will satisfy you be if I turn into you and post multiple, tortuously long essays about how 99.9% of graduates WILL hate optometry and WILL end up in Walmart and WILL regret their decision and WILL languish in a life of misery forever and ever, amen.

This would be fantastic, but I'll settle for the previous.

 

[Jason K]

Jason.....I want to ask you something. (I'll probably regret this.)

Let's assume that you're dealing with a person who has already completed their first or second year of optometry school.

Would you tell them to drop out?

If not, as someone who is clearly not satisfied with your career, what advice would YOU give them to try to get them where they want to go?

Why would you regret asking this? It's a good question. I said in one of my first few posts on here that I never intended for optometry students to read the information I'm putting out there. It was preoptometry students I was trying to reach. Maybe a little of it would be good to light a fire under their collective butts, but it's the last thing they need during optometry school - I get that. The reason I get so vocal about this stuff is EXACTLY because of the fact that once you start, it's almost too late. Certainly once you pass first year, you're in for the long haul. The time to make the decision is not after you enter optometry school, it's before. That's why I'm here. So no, I would not tell anyone to drop out of optometry school and I've said that numerous times before in older posts. Most ODs who regret their decision (and there's a lot of us out there), didn't come to realize the problems until AFTER we got out of school. It's far too late at that point.

 

[KHE]

Why would you regret asking this? It's a good question. I said in one of my first few posts on here that I never intended for optometry students to read the information I'm putting out there. It was preoptometry students I was trying to reach. Maybe a little of it would be good to light a fire under their collective butts, but it's the last thing they need during optometry school - I get that. The reason I get so vocal about this stuff is EXACTLY because of the fact that once you start, it's almost too late. Certainly once you pass first year, you're in for the long haul. The time to make the decision is not after you enter optometry school, it's before. That's why I'm here. So no, I would not tell anyone to drop out of optometry school and I've said that numerous times before in older posts. Most ODs who regret their decision (and there's a lot of us out there), didn't come to realize the problems until AFTER we got out of school. It's far too late at that point.

Ok....so your advice to optometry students then is........what?

 

[Jason K]

Ok....so your advice to optometry students then is........what?

I'd tell them the same thing I'd tell someone who got herpes from a night out with too much drinking and a lapse in judgment. You made your mistake, now you have to live with it and possibly try to prevent others from doing the same thing. Come to think of it, HSVII and an OD are not really all that different. Once you get one of them, you're stuck with it for life and you'll be paying the price forever.

So, to answer your question, I'd probably tell them a lot of what you tell the pre-ops on here. "Do whatever you can, plan, pray, read, whatever needs to be done in order to increase your odds of avoiding the giant trap door that is commercial optometry." It really doesn't matter, though. They're all going to be entering into a profession that doesn't need them so even the ones who land in a "good" spot, won't really be in a good place at all. They'll be in the best seat in a terrible theater. It's too late for OD students. They're already in the pipeline, just waiting to get spit out into the world that doesn't need them. If that's "shrill," well, then it is what it is. It sounds harsh to say that, but it's the truth. It's not too late for the ones who have yet to choose the path of an OD. What I'd say to committed OD students is really irrelevant since they're already on an irreversible path.

 

[thecgrblue]

What path do you suggest then?

 

[Jason K]

What path do you suggest then?

I guess that depends on the situation. If you're in the first semester or quarter of first year, then I'd say it's time to really think about things if you're having doubts. Only you can make the decision regarding whether or not continue on. I can honestly say that if I knew in 1st year what I know now, I'd have left the program and gone into something with a better future and more professional stability. I know there are many, many ODs who share that feeling. The financial loss would have been well worth it to me, personally. No, I am NOT telling anyone to drop out of school - 1st year, 2nd year, or any year. I'm just saying that for me, if I had found out what I know now by the end of 1st year, I'd have probably sucked it up and left voluntarily. Where I went to school, the halfway point of an OD program would set you back about 90-100K in expenses. If you're in your second or third year, it's too late to do anything but bite the bullet and hope or "plan" for the best. That's the problem with not fully understanding what you're getting before you sign up - there's really no turning back once you get into it so you'd better be sure it's going to be something that will provide a solid foundation for you to build on. Twenty five years ago, if you got an OD, or any other degree, and decided it wasn't for you, you could do something else without too much pain other than lost time. The financial cost was insignificant by today's standards. You can't do that sort of thing these days. Unless you're made of money, you get one shot.

A person considering leaving optometry school would have to carefully think the financial situation through. If you leave any grad program with tens of thousands in debt, you're going to have to pay that back as soon as you leave. If you don't have a better place to set your sights, then it really doesn't make sense to jump ship and remain stagnant.

If you think you can leave optometry, accept the financial loss, and find something that suits your interests, but has a better professional outlook, then maybe consider it. If you don't think that's possible, then it only makes sense to stick it out and do the best you can with what you've got. That's pretty much what I hear from most of the people I went to school with - they're "Doing the best they can with what they have.....and OD." Unfortunately, not many of them are happy with their decision to get one.

Too many people have chosen and will choose optometry because they think it is something completely different than what it actually is. That's why I'm on this site. There are very few ODs out there who are willing to actually talk about the skeletons in the closet. It's unfortunate, but I really think most people in optometry school right now have no idea what they're in for when they graduate.