"Doctor's Wife" label - Offensive or Makin' Momma Proud?

[novacek88]

What would YOU rather be? Becoming a doc in the US is one of the most competitive career choices. Yes, lawyers and MBA's can make more $$, but these guys are a dime a dozen. There is not anything special about their accomplishment... getting the MD..now that takes some smarts and a little luck. yes, the doc wife title is from an era gone by, when only men went to medical school, but dont be so offended. Society for some reason treats us different, I haven't even started residency yet, all I have is a contract, but I already bought a house and a new car, just because I'm a doctor! Do you think the shoe salesman or insurance salesman will get that special treatment when he applies for these things...NO! I did not make the rules, I worked hard to get here and I will be the best doctor I can be (and enjoy those little perks that seem to come with the job.) My wife the PHd will enjoy the ride too!! I dont agree with some of the above post that MD has lost its luster. In some places of the country it still has great prestige. Ok, if anybody needs me I'll be at the driving range at the CC my program has a membership at! see ya!

Well said, there is a lot of fakeness associated with downplaying the fruits of becoming a physician. It reminds me of a guy who just won Wimbledon and in his congratulatory speech, he spends 15 minutes saying only nice things about his opponent. Likewise, it's vogue for physicians to say great things about other peoples' careers and trash their own. However, medical school admissions are more competitive than they have ever been. The physician who supposedly hates his job rarely quits and goes to grad school in the same numbers as lawyers and other MBA's who flock to medical school. And most of the people complaing are old guys who were raking it in the 1980's and had ultimate power and say over their patients. They could order any test or procedure they wanted and insurance companies would reimburse them with no questions asked. And patients didn't sue in droves like they do now so they didn't have to worry about malpractice and pay these ridiculous rates they are paying now. Yeah, if I was one of these guys, I might think medicine sucks too these days. Physician salaries may not have increased when adjusted for inflation but they have steadily increased over time. And what if physicians' salaries were adjusted for inflation, do you realize how much money we would be making? It would be sick!

Likewise, doctors are still highly sought after. Women know J.D.'s and MBA are a dime a dozen. Most importantly, medicine is a very tangible field in which you can understand what physicians do for a living. Nobody knows what the heck a corporate attorney or an MBA grad does sitting in his office or cubicle all day. That's not glamorous. You will just look like every other out-of shape guy with a blue oxford shirt and tie coming off a Southwest Airlines flight on Thursday evening. People can rag on doctors and try to rationalize that it isn't an exciting field but I know they don't believe that deep down.

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[tlew12778]

There are many low-level, low-paying jobs out there that require transfers (or you're out of a job) and the spouse just has to deal with it. In the match, at least the spouse can have a say in where the doctor narrows down his or her choices. I just feel like this thread is sort of dedicated to showing how doctors are so different and special. It's just a job.

Yeah, you're right -- it is just a job. I think the reason why a lot of women say "we" when referring to med school days or residency days is simply bc this forum is dedicated to medical spouses, therefore we've all been in the same boat. Drs are different in that their work-related transfers are more structured by the NRMP -- there's an actual process that they all have to go through, and the spouses who have gone through the match here are simply offering their own first-hand experiences with it. I'm sure it'd be great if say, Morgan Stanley or some other i-bank set up a forum where spouses could talk about work-transfers or being work-widows. So it's not that the job in and of itself is that special, so much as the specific issues that the spouses face. Otherwise, why does this forum even exist?

Oh and FWIW, I do identify myself through my own career. In fact, I earn more than he does. While he was in med school, I was doing my MBA. The fact of the matter is that in this forum, the common thread connecting the participants is that they are married to medical professionals.

 

[Skills]

It is because generally people think of doctors as these glamorous white coat wearing clooney look alikes who save lives, are compassionate, interesting and know the workings of the body well..

 

[Do.the.DO]

I think some of the women here are being less than earnest. Women do view physicians differently. I have been on both sides of the issue. I worked in finance prior to starting medical school and although I earned a lot of money (6 figures), I was never hit on like I am now, and I'm just a lowly resident. I was in much better shape then too. I get hit on by nurses and PA's all the time. If I'm a social function and I'm talking to a woman, her eyes suddenly light up when she learns I'm a physician. I think it's superficial and it doesn't impress me at all. There are a lot of women that want to be the doctor's wife; people are just better about hiding it now or are not upfront about it the way they were in the past because it's not PC to be a golddigger.

Likewise, I dare the women who supposedly have it so hard being the housewife to take these exams particularly the boards and work on the floors, etc. Sorry but I don't think raising children and keeping a house clean is anywhere close to being as hard as taking exams and working on the wards; the pressure and nervousness alone makes this very difficult. I wouldn't mind staying at home and watching ESPN, playing video games and changing little Johnnie's diaper and teaching him how to read. Doesn't sound so bad to me. The doctors' spouse has it pretty darn good in my opinion. I think men are programmed to say: "Wow, you stayed home and raised the kids, your job is so much harder than my 100 hour weeks as a neurosurgeon. How did you do it. You're job is so much harder than mine." Seriously, if you were a neurosurgeon that said that, you would be invited to be a guest on Oprah and the View.

And what bothers me more than anything else is when these wives feel like they went to medical school and accomplished something. I hear doctors wives put down people in other jobs as if they went to medical school too. Most of these women are just golddiggers. Now, I'm not talking about the PhD's, MBA's and other women who had jobs that financially supported their husbands. Those women are heros as far as I'm concerned. I'm talking about the golddiggers who worked so "hard' supporting their husbands by staying at home. Or you gotta love the nurses who quit their jobs upon marrying their physician husbands; those women are golddiggers too.

Okay, I agree with quite a bit of what you've posted and disagree with probably nearly as much.

First, not all spouses of doc's are gold diggers. Yes, I'm sure there are quite a few, but certainly not all. Heck, from my own experiences, I'd say not even a quarter.

My husband is a MSIII and I'm at home with the kids. His work is INFINITELY tougher than what I'm doing and I've never even given it a second thought as to which of us has the shorter end of that stick. We're both doing what we have to do to acheive what we want in our lives and that of our children. Any spouses who even remotely think that their work is anywhere near as difficult is utterly deluded. It's no less necessary, but not even close to being as tough. (And yes, I supported my husband through his undergrad by working 60+ hrs a week.)

What I think the OP was originally asking about was if any other spouses or S/O's of doctor's had experience with the "Oh-you're-a-"Doctor's-Wife" phenomenon. Where suddenly people treat you differently when they discover your S/O's profession and bestow instant respect onto your family. It's really odd when this happens and is a bit disconcerting. I'd rather my neighbors like us because we're goofy, fun people, not because they look at us as free medical advice.

Granted, our family situation might be different than most. My husband and I have been together since LONG before he was ever accepted into medical school so thinking of him in hushed and awed tones as a healther of the masses isn't really something I do. Don't get me wrong, I love him dearly and respect him a great deal, but to me, he'll always be the same dork who still can't figure out that our kids need to wear socks AND shoes in the wintertime. Not something to be in awe of. Hell, I wash his dirty drawers. Nothing to be in awe of there.

The spouses on the other side of the equation see their physican S/O's as the fallable humans that they are. Not the godlike George Clooney-esque heros portrayed on TV or in movies.

And yes, it's TOTALLY shallow for women to suddenly become interested only because you're a doc. That's something I agree with you about.

 

[LiveLoveFartRepeat]

I think some of the women here are being less than earnest. Women do view physicians differently. I have been on both sides of the issue. I worked in finance prior to starting medical school and although I earned a lot of money (6 figures), I was never hit on like I am now, and I'm just a lowly resident. I was in much better shape then too. I get hit on by nurses and PA's all the time. If I'm a social function and I'm talking to a woman, her eyes suddenly light up when she learns I'm a physician. I think it's superficial and it doesn't impress me at all. There are a lot of women that want to be the doctor's wife; people are just better about hiding it now or are not upfront about it the way they were in the past because it's not PC to be a golddigger.

.......
And what bothers me more than anything else is when these wives feel like they went to medical school and accomplished something. I hear doctors wives put down people in other jobs as if they went to medical school too. Most of these women are just golddiggers. Now, I'm not talking about the PhD's, MBA's and other women who had jobs that financially supported their husbands. Those women are heros as far as I'm concerned. I'm talking about the golddiggers who worked so "hard' supporting their husbands by staying at home. Or you gotta love the nurses who quit their jobs upon marrying their physician husbands; those women are golddiggers too.

I could not have , with my limited English , put it in better words.... all you said in this post is just the way i had it in my mind.... Nova.

I don't expect my husband to be Mr the husband of a pharmacist but to be himself...even if he is the one raising our baby while i am at school he never implied that his job was harder than mine..he is looking forward to leave his own print in this world...

our deal is to pursue my dream now and when i graduate we will work as hard to make his dream come true..

One dream at a time..we will both hopefully down the road feel like winners...

PS: one explanation why women were not hitting on you as "finance guy" as much they do now that you are a MD..is that they could not really tell how much you were making then as a businessman or in Finance...if you were an establish millionnaire, the story would have been different!!
but everybody knows or assumes that MDs make a lot of money..so when you say physician...they have an idea of the size of the house they can afford

 

[f_w]

they have an idea of the size of the house they afford

'doctors wife' doesn't afford a house, she just decorates it.

 

[LiveLoveFartRepeat]

'doctors wife' doesn't afford a house, she just decorates it.

don't you know that most of a couple spendings in a marriage are decided by women? including the house size?..yep...we are the one making the decisions..and if i were a doctor's wife....why bother with decoration...i will hire a pro in decoration to make sure to have the cuttest house around

 

[Smilemaker100]

don't you know that most of a couple spendings in a marriage are decided by women? including the house size?..yep...we are the one making the decisions..and if i were a doctor's wife....why bother with decoration...i will hire a pro in decoration to make sure to have the cuttest house around

I normally have very little interest in this forum as I am pretty preoccupied by my creative and intellectual pursuits at the moment but I felt like I REALLY had to comment.

This morning, just before I left to work, I ate breakfast with my mother and we had this brief discussion on this couple my parents used to be friends with. My mom spoke about how, individually, they were such nice people but as a couple they were a failure and their marriage fell apart. About 30 years ago, this couple owned an estate and had a young child. My parents were living in an apartment with a toddler (me). Life wasn't easy for my parents but my mom said, "Your dad and I, despite some financial difficulties, were more happy than that couple with their loads of money." Although my mom may like some luxury, her happiness has stemmed from simple pleasures in life not from having the nicest house in the neighborhood or the most expensive cars. My dad was so lucky in meeting and marrying my mother despite many odds.

My parents constantly surprise me with their daily flirting and affection. I am so amazed at how they survived so many hardships together after 34 years. Money may make some aspects of life easier but it doesn't buy love and happiness. My parents are shining examples of what a happy marriage is all about. They are nothing short of amazing.

 

[zenman]

My wife told me about a woman she knows who married a physician and now calls herself, "Mrs. Doctor so and so!" Gotta love it!

 

[Squad51]

My wife told me about a woman she knows who married a physician and now calls herself, "Mrs. Doctor so and so!" Gotta love it!

In extremely formal settings (e.g., dinner at the White House), this is the correct lexicon. At formal introductions at a small reception at the home of the President of my University after I was awarded my Ph.D., this is how my wife was introduced (as were all others). Husbands were called "Mr." if their wife had been hooded. The fun one was my good friend's wife, an ordained minister, introduced as "The Reverend, Mrs. Dr. John Doe"

 

[LADoc00]

Anyone else do the play doctor thing: dress up in scrubs and white coat and pretend to do exams on your GF/SO....fun times! They even sell toy speculums with lights at sex shops now.

 

[SaraL124]

Any spouses who even remotely think that their work is anywhere near as difficult is utterly deluded.[/I] It's no less necessary, but not even close to being as tough. (And yes, I supported my husband through his undergrad by working 60+ hrs a week.)

I honestly, can't believe that I am reading this quote! Yes, my husband is a medical student and he has a hard and meaningful job. I am not sure if you are making this comment based on the original poster's (to whom you were replying) comment about the stay at home moms saying their jobs are harder, but I mean, NOT ALL DOCTOR'S SPOUSES ARE STAY AT HOME WIVES AND MOTHERS! A lot of the rest of us have hard jobs too! I just can't believe that you would subvert all women to their doctor husband's like that.

 

[Do.the.DO]

I honestly, can't believe that I am reading this quote! Yes, my husband is a medical student and he has a hard and meaningful job. I am not sure if you are making this comment based on the original poster's (to whom you were replying) comment about the stay at home moms saying their jobs are harder, but I mean, NOT ALL DOCTOR'S SPOUSES ARE STAY AT HOME WIVES AND MOTHERS! A lot of the rest of us have hard jobs too! I just can't believe that you would subvert all women to their doctor husband's like that.

I'm in no way trying to denigrate someone else's job or their efforts. (And yes, I was actually responding to the OP's comments about the wives thinking their jobs were toughest.) But I still stand by my OPINION.

Lots of people have tough jobs. I've had tough jobs. Being an at-home mom is the easiest one I've EVER had. But that doesn't change my opinion. I've gone through my husband's books and study materials. I'm the one he vents to when he doesn't score as well as he wanted. I'm the one who can't sleep until he's home from his 16-20 hour days of studying during finals, (which is only a couple hours more than his normal non-final studying), I know what he's doing and how much work he puts into it. And it's still tougher than ANY job either he or I have ever had. (Which is saying quite a bit...we've both had some stinker jobs while we worked through our own schooling.)

I'm certainly not "subverting all women to their doctor husbands", since not all spouses of physicans are WOMEN. Sheesh. (I thought all good feminists knew that women could be and were doctors, too.) What I'm saying is that these spouses who are pissing and moaning about how difficult their own lives are sound like self-absorbed idiots. It's like someone complaining how much their ingrown hair on their ass hurts while sitting next to an amputee. While everyone within earshot wants to scream, "Just get over yourself already."

 

[LiveLoveFartRepeat]

I normally have very little interest in this forum as I am pretty preoccupied by my creative and intellectual pursuits at the moment but I felt like I REALLY had to comment.

this couple owned an estate and had a young child. My parents were living............
My parents constantly surprise me with their daily flirting and affection. I am so amazed at how they survived so many hardships together after 34 years. Money may make some aspects of life easier but it doesn't buy love and happiness. My parents are shining examples of what a happy marriage is all about. They are nothing short of amazing.

Nice story, but i don't see the connection with my post? to what are u responding?...My post was making fun of some stay at home wives.

Ps: my answer to your post is: as your post is from your personal experience....my personal experience tells me that yes happiness in a marriage is not about the things you have.....but the lack of money.. the things you can't have can affect a marriage too....in my country we have a quote saying that" when poverty knocks at the door...love flies by the window".

The Money factor is a big part of marriages..nobody lives off fresh water and bread

 

[SaraL124]

I'm in no way trying to denigrate someone else's job or their efforts. (And yes, I was actually responding to the OP's comments about the wives thinking their jobs were toughest.) But I still stand by my OPINION.

Lots of people have tough jobs. I've had tough jobs. Being an at-home mom is the easiest one I've EVER had. But that doesn't change my opinion. I've gone through my husband's books and study materials. I'm the one he vents to when he doesn't score as well as he wanted. I'm the one who can't sleep until he's home from his 16-20 hour days of studying during finals, (which is only a couple hours more than his normal non-final studying), I know what he's doing and how much work he puts into it. And it's still tougher than ANY job either he or I have ever had. (Which is saying quite a bit...we've both had some stinker jobs while we worked through our own schooling.)

I'm certainly not "subverting all women to their doctor husbands", since not all spouses of physicans are WOMEN. Sheesh. (I thought all good feminists knew that women could be and were doctors, too.) What I'm saying is that these spouses who are pissing and moaning about how difficult their own lives are sound like self-absorbed idiots. It's like someone complaining how much their ingrown hair on their ass hurts while sitting next to an amputee. While everyone within earshot wants to scream, "Just get over yourself already."

1. I still don't understand if you are saying that doctor's jobs are harder than everyone else's jobs or just the job you yourself hold currently (stay at home mom). Yes you are entitled to your OPINION that your husband's job (med student) is harder than your job as a stay at home mom, but I am also entitled to say that the job of a medical student or doctor is not as difficult as some other jobs out there (that you may not know about). Obvioulsy a stay at home mom complaining about how tough her life is may want to re-examine her ideals and values about hard work, but not all doctor's spouses are stay-at-home moms!
(Then again, if the stay-at-home mom has like 4 kids under the age of 5, her job may be extremely difficult, coupled with the fact that she is expected to run all the errands, cook, clean, deal with all those kids and have minimal time for grown-up interaction...I'd say that would be pretty difficult for me to deal with; it may be different for a stay-at-home mom of one or two).

2. To address your other comment about women being able to be doctors, well obviously women can be doctors, but it seems like this thread has evolved into the debate about doctor's WIVES being so spoiled and self-important.

 

[Do.the.DO]

1. I still don't understand if you are saying that doctor's jobs are harder than everyone else's jobs ...

No, not doctor's jobs that are harder...being a med student is tougher than MOST of their spouses jobs. Certainly not all. There are always exceptions and some jobs are more difficult for different reasons. But rarely will you find a job that is as time consuming, mentally draining, AND physically exhausting, (due to lack of sleep), as that of a med student.

Was my job working with my grandfather's logging company more PHYSICALLY tough than my husband being a med student? Definitely. But I didn't have 20 hour days or have to cram as much info into my noggin as humanly possible to do it.

Was working in R&D at an industrial coatings company as mentally draining as his medical school? Maybe...probably not, but for these purposes we'll assume it is. But again, I still didn't have the endless hours and lack of sleep issue to deal with.

Each job has it's "hard" parts. But VERY few entail the combined elements of the stresses of medical school. That is my point. Not just that my husband's schoolling is harder than my days filled with chasing around our 3 kids, cleaning the house, cooking the meals, paying the bills, etc. That one's a no-brainer.

Are you trying to imply that medical school is equal to or EASIER than most other jobs?

 

[SaraL124]

.

 

[medoc]

...it seems like this thread has evolved into the debate about doctor's WIVES being so spoiled and self-important...

Hello Sara124. By my cursory review, I lament that this thread does appear to have shifted in the direction you described. I am a physician at a teaching hospital, and my wife has had to endure a lot during my training. Indeed, the experience has been involved enough for both of us that we consider having gone through it TOGETHER. Even still, with our busy lives, it is no small feat to find time for a "date night", and then to be paged away on an emergency. Which role is more frustrating? Being the one rushing off to the hospital or being the one left at the table?

To me, it appears that the "doctor's wife" social phenomenon is much more prominent in non-caucasian ethnic groups (as we are) when compared with current mainstream culture. My wife has spent considerable time and effort with her career in a relatively erudite scientific field, and people don't seem to pay much attention to her graduate degree from Harvard. Most attention appears to be focused on her "doctor husband", irrespective of the fact that she makes almost twice as much money as I do. To add insult to injury, a lot of conversations with extended and immediate family tend to be directed towards home-making abilities or "when are you going to have a baby?" Socially, I am somewhat embarassed to bring my wife to events hosted by my clinical department. Doctors, when gathered together, are really a self-congratulatory bunch with a strong sense of entitlement. If our roles were reversed, I'd literally burst with frustration.

It is my strongest sentiment that our spouses deserve the utmost of our respect in addition to affection, and equitable portion of credit in our endeavors. I entered into a lifelong covenant, and it appears in this light, pointless to entertain which spouse has the harder job. Granted, the "doctor" label does have its social perks, but it also means that we have to be sensitive to its impact on our partners.

 

[NDMD]

My wife is a MS-IV and we're expecting our first child in August. I'm going to be a stay-at-home dad and am very excited about it. I get a lot of crap from my friends but I'm pretty sure they're just jealous. It isn't that easy being a doctor's husband either. I get the same stereotypical responses that the doctor's wives get.

 

[Blake]

My wife is a MS-IV and we're expecting our first child in August. I'm going to be a stay-at-home dad and am very excited about it. I get a lot of crap from my friends but I'm pretty sure they're just jealous. It isn't that easy being a doctor's husband either. I get the same stereotypical responses that the doctor's wives get.

Sounds like great friends

 

[Khenon]

I don't get it.

What's the big effing deal about "landing a doc"?

I'm coming from a working- to lower-middle-class background, and the whole "landing a doc" thing is new to me.

Is landing a doctor somehow harder than landing a city planner (just to throw that out there as an example of an upper middle class profession) or engineer, so that landing a doctor is somehow a badge of female status? Are doctors somehow construed as more "desirable"?

I somehow missed the boat on this one, because I just DON'T get it. Call me naive.

Personally, I'm always scoping out the hot Paramedics in those cargo pants, not the docs, who mostly just seem like any other flabby middle aged guys to me.

Can a medic and a female doc work out?

I take you don't know, either, that there are women out there that will take out a small personal loan just to buy an extremely expensive gown to show up to fancy-pants parties. Why do they do this, you ask? Because they're trying to pick up the "money" . . . ie doctors, lawyers, entertainers . . . who ever has money. And I'm not kidding about this. I saw some stupid documentary thing on it several years ago. Granted, these types of women are clearly gold-diggers, but they are very specifically targeting men with "prestigious" titles, as well as money. The stigma is out there, and though many of us ignore it and just go about our days, there are many that still live by it and foster the stereotype.

 

[CatinaOU]

I am coming from a diff angle. I too am married to a doctor very soon to be. SHE graduates in May. I stay at home and take care of the house and our daughter. I do most of the chores, cleaning, and have had several people question my decision like I should be offended that my wife will more money than I. Hmmm lets see, I take my daughter to school, and pick her up, take her to after school activities, do house chores, watch sports, play golf at least once a week. And this is bad HOW??

Back to the original question, I in no way think that being married to a doctor is in any way an offensive term. You make the choice to be offended by someone else's ignorance. Our spouses have worked EXTREMELY hard to get that title and we should be very proud of them. Further, to stay at home, and make sure the children are raised in a proper manner and the house is clean is by no means a small task. Just ask anyone who does it everyday.

Just my .02

I couldn't agree more! To all of those whaaa whaaaing out there shame on you! I can't believe that compliments have become such a stigma these days. I am proud to one day be a doctors wife (hubby just starting med school) not only because of the power/money/prestige crap but also I know just how much work both he and I have put into his education. It takes a damn lot of work to become a doctor and a hell of a support system to make it through it emotionally. So docs good job for being sucessful and docs spouses congrats on being the support they needed to become the men and women they desired to be. And to all those that can find nothing better to do than complain..... Get a damn hobby.

 

[CatinaOU]

Actually my wife is an administrator at the hospital I am training at (she moved here with me). She has her MBA and MPH and is wildly successful at what she does (JCAHO compliance officer and QI/QA director). She is on a first name basis with all of my attendings. But she still sees it as "we" are going through medical school and far be it from me to tell her otherwise... (see full post above)

I guess it just depends on if you consider it a joint life or two people coexhisting and making their own ways. I wouldn't be married if I didn't care to share in his life and he in mine. Good grief maybe I am stuck in the 80's and still a hopeless romantic.

 

[medoc]

I couldn't agree more! To all of those whaaa whaaaing out there shame on you! I can't believe that compliments have become such a stigma these days. I am proud to one day be a doctors wife (hubby just starting med school) not only because of the power/money/prestige crap but also I know just how much work both he and I have put into his education. It takes a damn lot of work to become a doctor and a hell of a support system to make it through it emotionally. So docs good job for being sucessful and docs spouses congrats on being the support they needed to become the men and women they desired to be. And to all those that can find nothing better to do than complain..... Get a damn hobby.

You speak pretty loudly and carry a hefty stick for someone who has no personal experience living the life associated with the medical profession. Your spouse has yet to even begin his training, so I do not understand from what perspective you have the right to be so sanctimonius and insulting. I am familiar with the hard work involved, having personally gone through medical school, internship, residency, and fellowship. My wife has a firm knowledge of the process as well. Spouses of medical professionals have unique needs, and I assume that is why this thread was started. When you are finished patting yourself on the back, I am confident that you will in time come to an understanding about this. Do you think it is random chance that physician marriages suffer higher rates of divorce? As for the "power/money/prestige crap", it is not an entitlement with the medical degree, but it is earned as is the case with most things in life. However, humility, patience, and generosity are traits that appear to be more resistant to be acquired with the "M.D." degree. I am glad you are a romantic. So am I. My wife and I are more in love with each other today than the day we got married. I sincerely wish you and yours the best of luck in your journey through the medical profession together because it is a rough ride. It is adviseable along the way to have more compassion for those who are not bearing it well or for those who are looking for advise.

 

[CatinaOU]

I do not mean to offend but I too came to this area for advise/support and all I seemed to have read so far was disgruntledness and discussions on cheating and leaving. It's sad to me that so many would dwell so deeply on the negitive side of life instead of appreciating what they and theirs have achieved or have the opportunity to achieve. I know that it will not be easy and I am sure that it is worse than I can imagine but I would rather support and lift each other up than gossip and stoke the fires of unhappiness. It's wonderful that you have a good support system I just hope that I can be the same for my husband and not get caught up in the drama that seems to be occuring with so many others.

 

[piercj2]

This is my first day at this websit and I have already made a couple posts. It is amazing that people cannot understand why people still complement spouses on landing a doctor. Do you think that there are no more women in the world who marry for money. Almost sixty percent of female doctors are married to other male doctors, while less than a quarter of male doctors are married to female doctors. Of course women still marry for money and status, and half of them cannot even distinguish that trait in themselves. Women tend to drop out of the workforce, make less money, and are not represented at the highest levels of thier professions usually, so of course men are still going to be seen as better, or more profession when they are doctors and wives are going to be seen as secoundary. Frankly, until women start backing up thier naive expectations tha tthey have when they are young and, "want to support themselves" steryotyping and addressing men as the more important acheiver will always exist. There are so many young women who think they are so independent and don't need a husband until they finish thier education and meet the realities of the work world that they some how stayed blind to for so many years. I have known and seen so many women who thnk they are going to do this, or do that, and end up chaning thier minds instantly becuas thier lack of self autonomy and independent thinking. And we do still live in a world where women want to marry, other wise they would not be bitter when they turn out single or childless. Of course women still want to be supported and cared after. Therefore people will alwyas complement then on landing a doctor when thier actions, and thier very nature look to be supported. IN my opinion women have a inate ability to say they want or have to do something, and then somehow chaning thier mind or not know why they wanted or had to do whatever they need to do in the first place. That is percisely why you see so many women drop out of the workforce, and then use the excuse, "Well, I have the choice to be supported or not be supported." This is persisely the reason there is a shortage of doctors now and frankly, if you work that hard to get into med school or spend so much of your life wanting something so bad it is just ludicrous not to do it when given the chance. Women use that above phrase as an excuse in not being able to handle a job that they aspired to.

 

[DrCandyBarr]

This is my first day at this websit and I have already made a couple posts. It is amazing that people cannot understand why people still complement spouses on landing a doctor. Do you think that there are no more women in the world who marry for money. Almost sixty percent of female doctors are married to other male doctors, while less than a quarter of male doctors are married to female doctors. Of course women still marry for money and status, and half of them cannot even distinguish that trait in themselves. Women tend to drop out of the workforce, make less money, and are not represented at the highest levels of thier professions usually, so of course men are still going to be seen as better, or more profession when they are doctors and wives are going to be seen as secoundary. Frankly, until women start backing up thier naive expectations tha tthey have when they are young and, "want to support themselves" steryotyping and addressing men as the more important acheiver will always exist. There are so many young women who think they are so independent and don't need a husband until they finish thier education and meet the realities of the work world that they some how stayed blind to for so many years. I have known and seen so many women who thnk they are going to do this, or do that, and end up chaning thier minds instantly becuas thier lack of self autonomy and independent thinking. And we do still live in a world where women want to marry, other wise they would not be bitter when they turn out single or childless. Of course women still want to be supported and cared after. Therefore people will alwyas complement then on landing a doctor when thier actions, and thier very nature look to be supported. IN my opinion women have a inate ability to say they want or have to do something, and then somehow chaning thier mind or not know why they wanted or had to do whatever they need to do in the first place. That is percisely why you see so many women drop out of the workforce, and then use the excuse, "Well, I have the choice to be supported or not be supported." This is persisely the reason there is a shortage of doctors now and frankly, if you work that hard to get into med school or spend so much of your life wanting something so bad it is just ludicrous not to do it when given the chance. Women use that above phrase as an excuse in not being able to handle a job that they aspired to.

I agree with the reference of women not being able to be as successful career wise once they raise families. I have discussed this at length with my fiancé. He is a doctor and will the main breadwinner while I, a dentist, will work part time so I can stay with the kids. I am so sick of women I know who think they can be successful at being a wife, mother and career woman. I rather be less ambitious career wise than be a lousy wife and mother. Forget all the feminist bulls**t. Children need their mothers to be at home especially in those formative years.

 

[DrCandyBarr]

This is my first day at this websit and I have already made a couple posts. It is amazing that people cannot understand why people still complement spouses on landing a doctor. Do you think that there are no more women in the world who marry for money. Almost sixty percent of female doctors are married to other male doctors, while less than a quarter of male doctors are married to female doctors. Of course women still marry for money and status, and half of them cannot even distinguish that trait in themselves. Women tend to drop out of the workforce, make less money, and are not represented at the highest levels of thier professions usually, so of course men are still going to be seen as better, or more profession when they are doctors and wives are going to be seen as secoundary. Frankly, until women start backing up thier naive expectations tha tthey have when they are young and, "want to support themselves" steryotyping and addressing men as the more important acheiver will always exist. There are so many young women who think they are so independent and don't need a husband until they finish thier education and meet the realities of the work world that they some how stayed blind to for so many years. I have known and seen so many women who thnk they are going to do this, or do that, and end up chaning thier minds instantly becuas thier lack of self autonomy and independent thinking. And we do still live in a world where women want to marry, other wise they would not be bitter when they turn out single or childless. Of course women still want to be supported and cared after. Therefore people will alwyas complement then on landing a doctor when thier actions, and thier very nature look to be supported. IN my opinion women have a inate ability to say they want or have to do something, and then somehow chaning thier mind or not know why they wanted or had to do whatever they need to do in the first place. That is percisely why you see so many women drop out of the workforce, and then use the excuse, "Well, I have the choice to be supported or not be supported." This is persisely the reason there is a shortage of doctors now and frankly, if you work that hard to get into med school or spend so much of your life wanting something so bad it is just ludicrous not to do it when given the chance. Women use that above phrase as an excuse in not being able to handle a job that they aspired to.

I agree with the reference of women not being able to be as successful career wise once they raise families. I have discussed this at length with my fiancé. He is a doctor and will the main breadwinner while I, a dentist, will work part time so I can stay with the kids. I am so sick of women I know who think they can be successful at being a wife, mother and career woman. I rather be less ambitious career wise than be a lousy wife and mother. Forget all the feminist bulls**t. Children need their mothers to be at home especially in those formative years.

 

[BPlato]

Though I originally started this post, I haven't been on this website in quite a while. And Wow!!! Argue much? I was surprised to see the turn the post had taken. I was more surprised to discover how narrow minded a lot of the posts had been. I think we all should keep in mind that this comparison between ourselves regarding occupation or education or gender (and on and on) is futile. No one is better than anyone else. No one has it harder than anyone else. No job is the most difficult. No one is more important because of their degree. Listen to one another and look outside of your own little foxhole. I live in one of the nation's biggest cities. There are individuals standing on the side of the road, begging to wash my car window or sell me tube socks every day when I exit the expressway. And in the same city where that occurs, I see limo after limo after limo each day. All peoples have their problems, hurdles, struggles, sorrows. It doesn't matter who they are. The man who knocks on my window to try to sell me men's socks in the middle of summer, well now, he has troubles. He is poor. He probably has to rely on public aid. He might even be mentally challenged. But I guarantee you that the man in the suit in the back of the limo that his company paid for on the way to the airport has troubles too. Maybe his son committed suicide because he wasn't present and the goodbye letter haunts him daily. Maybe he will never really know himself at all. Maybe his wife left him because money really wasn't enough. It is all relative. We all have things we go through that the world doesn't see, that title or salary or marital status can't protect us against. That's why I become frustrated with how impressed people become when they learn my fiance is going to be a doctor. A common frustration, a shared disgust for people's lack of breadth in vision is what I hoped this thread would become. Not a forum for competition. I will leave you to your clambering upon each other's shoulders.

 

[BPlato]

Just a note...

I was signed in on my fiance's name accidentally. I originally posted as Plato's wife.

 

[piercj2]

To Mrs. Plato, of course every body has harsh circumstances in which they live. Death of a loved one, loss of a job, hearbreak, divorce, not getting along eith loved ones ect, ect, ect. However my sympathy for alot of situations like this has left my soul completely. I am a 22 year old college student and what I have seen in college and in the rest of soceity is ridiculous. In college alone, the amount of girls that date a guy for what faternity he is in, how much money he has, who he knows, if he is a bad boy, if he is country, or any othe ridculous and arbitrary reasons women date men. I have know sympathy any more regarding the divorce rate, and the terrible consequences of divorc now that I have seen the circumstances people constantly but themselves in. IN my opinion we live in a caring and passionless soceity in which people live above all else for thier own needs and well being, and this is literally proven in the divorce rate in out country. I used an example of women because I do not beleive women care, nor do they know who they are at all. Women still, yes still, date guys for any and every reaons for what kind of person he is. Tell me, how many guys have you seen that are dating old wrinkled up men for thier money, exactly. In retrospect, have you seen donald trumps wives, all three of them have been super- models- it must be the slick hair do. Yeah right, women have no regards for self identity and independent thinking and marry men for means of support, do get out of a situation, to hire thier own self asteem, and bring kids into the world now days for the same reasons. I have seen and gotten to know alot of girls in college and thow I still treat them well, they are completely fickle at heart, loving things and existing primnarily based on tiher own needs and insecurities, almost coexisting off other people. Before feminism in the first half of the twentieth century did you have the divorce rate you do now, what about the number of single parent families, what about the well being of kids and how they are disciplined, what aboutt the rate of marriage and the rate of kids who are brought into the world, or the amount of people who are single, and the amount of cohabition and uncommited relationships. Feminism did not single handedly creat this, but it did help create everything I just mentioned. WOmen as a whole have changed, not just because they are doctors or lawyers but deepers aspects of thier charcater and identity. They non- ideologically walk through life looking for the next person, thing or situation they can pursue to help fullfill themsleves and make fullfill thier own selfish ideas and agendas. Our whole soceity has changed and most of the women who have helped change this dont even pursue careers whole heartedly, and really dont even take pride in motherhood. What the hell on the earth for if they fet no fullfillment in either of the two. Its called lack of self identity and automous self worth in a world that needs it more than ever

 

[FutureTeacher]

To Mrs. Plato, of course every body has harsh circumstances in which they live. Death of a loved one, loss of a job, hearbreak, divorce, not getting along eith loved ones ect, ect, ect. However my sympathy for alot of situations like this has left my soul completely. I am a 22 year old college student and what I have seen in college and in the rest of soceity is ridiculous. In college alone, the amount of girls that date a guy for what faternity he is in, how much money he has, who he knows, if he is a bad boy, if he is country, or any othe ridculous and arbitrary reasons women date men. I have know sympathy any more regarding the divorce rate, and the terrible consequences of divorc now that I have seen the circumstances people constantly but themselves in. IN my opinion we live in a caring and passionless soceity in which people live above all else for thier own needs and well being, and this is literally proven in the divorce rate in out country. I used an example of women because I do not beleive women care, nor do they know who they are at all. Women still, yes still, date guys for any and every reaons for what kind of person he is. Tell me, how many guys have you seen that are dating old wrinkled up men for thier money, exactly. In retrospect, have you seen donald trumps wives, all three of them have been super- models- it must be the slick hair do. Yeah right, women have no regards for self identity and independent thinking and marry men for means of support, do get out of a situation, to hire thier own self asteem, and bring kids into the world now days for the same reasons. I have seen and gotten to know alot of girls in college and thow I still treat them well, they are completely fickle at heart, loving things and existing primnarily based on tiher own needs and insecurities, almost coexisting off other people. Before feminism in the first half of the twentieth century did you have the divorce rate you do now, what about the number of single parent families, what about the well being of kids and how they are disciplined, what aboutt the rate of marriage and the rate of kids who are brought into the world, or the amount of people who are single, and the amount of cohabition and uncommited relationships. Feminism did not single handedly creat this, but it did help create everything I just mentioned. WOmen as a whole have changed, not just because they are doctors or lawyers but deepers aspects of thier charcater and identity. They non- ideologically walk through life looking for the next person, thing or situation they can pursue to help fullfill themsleves and make fullfill thier own selfish ideas and agendas. Our whole soceity has changed and most of the women who have helped change this dont even pursue careers whole heartedly, and really dont even take pride in motherhood. What the hell on the earth for if they fet no fullfillment in either of the two. Its called lack of self identity and automous self worth in a world that needs it more than ever

I do agree with some of your posts. Although women do not earn the same amount of money in their professions, it is not because of incompetence or laziness. Usually, it's because companies are opposed to promoting women or because women take time off in the beginning of their career to raise their families.

The females in your classes are NOT women- they are girls that are very immature. They are living in a culture where it is glamorous to be a *****. What do you expect? At some point, they will grow up and will be humiliated by their past acts.

I have been married for a little over a year now. I work to support myself and my husband so that he can go to pharmacy school. Any decisions that need to be made are made together. When we have children, I will stay home with them until kindergarten and then hopefully teach at the school they attend.

You can't make blanket statements about all women because not all women are the same. I believe in a very traditional lifestyle. My husband, family, and children are most important to me. I know that I cannot be a great mother/wife if I am working 80+ hours a week. For that reason, I chose to stop my education (temporarily) at my Bach degree so my husband can go to Pharm school. When he graduates, I will go back for my masters but my family will ALWAYS be most important.

 

[piercj2]

that makes one out of a couple billion

 

[tr]

I am a 22 year old college student...

That's not much life experience by which to judge 3 billion people you haven't met...

Tell me, how many guys have you seen that are dating old wrinkled up men for thier money, exactly.

Sure; shallow men date women for their looks, and shallow women date men for their power and authority. You see some sort of moral distinction here?

They non- ideologically walk through life looking for the next person, thing or situation they can pursue to help fullfill themsleves and make fullfill thier own selfish ideas and agendas.

And this makes them different from men how exactly? We live in a society that glorifies the individual; welcome to the developed West.

Our whole soceity has changed and most of the women who have helped change this dont even pursue careers whole heartedly, and really dont even take pride in motherhood.

How could you possibly know this, since as a college student most of the women you know have neither careers nor children yet?

(Edit: By the way, you wouldn't happen to know a Russian Jewish college student with a physicist fetish, would you? You remind me of someone else on the board...)

 

[piercj2]

There is a moral difference between a women dating a man for money, and a man dating a women for looks. You know this. Everyone wants to date someone whom they are physically attracted to. However dating someone for his money is just dating someone to fullfill your own selfish ambition of being rich or important. Also, women have equal oppurtunity now, so they have no excuse. Sexual attraction is natural, to a person, not a house or a car.

 

[DrCandyBarr]

There is a moral difference between a women dating a man for money, and a man dating a women for looks. You know this. Everyone wants to date someone whom they are physically attracted to. However dating someone for his money is just dating someone to fullfill your own selfish ambition of being rich or important. Also, women have equal oppurtunity now, so they have no excuse. Sexual attraction is natural, to a person, not a house or a car.

Agreed, there is a great difference in between a woman dating a man for money and a man dating a woman for looks. My parents are an excellent example of an ideal relationship. My dad not only saw a gorgeous Italian woman when he met my mother, but a giving person who was there to morally support him for richer or poorer when his own family betrayed him. He saw in my mother, not only his future spouse, but a potentially great mother and a best friend. My father suffered from some hard economic blows over the years and my mother never left him. After 27 years of marriage, they are still in love and one of the few couples in their circle of friends who have not divorced ( some of those couples were pretty well off financially).

My mother is the most selfless person I know. She gave up material wealth to be a stay-at-home mom. How many women out there can say the same in these modern times ? How many women out there couldn't do with the extra car, extra trips, extra fancy trade name clothes, jewelry and other luxuries in exchange for being a traditional family woman?

Once my fiancé finishes his pediatrics residency and I am more or less stable financially, I know where my place is and women, no offense, but my place is at home with my future babies and my career ambitions will rank in second (part time worker). We'll never be equal in that sense. Motherhood is very special. We can't have it all. Somewhere down the line, one aspect of your life will suffer if you try to be a full time career woman, wife and mother - will that be your career, marriage or children ? Take your pick. Unless you live in some third world country with a live-in-maid and cook, I wish you luck in balancing it all.

 

[tr]

There is a moral difference between a women dating a man for money, and a man dating a women for looks. You know this. Everyone wants to date someone whom they are physically attracted to.

What you don't understand is that for many women, actual sexual attraction depends more on social attributes than on physical ones. They're not necessarily dating a man because they want his money; it's that his high social status makes him sexually attractive to them. That's no different than a woman's physical appearance making her sexually attractive to a man.

You don't understand this because you are locked into your adolescent-male perspective, and you can't imagine being sexually attracted to someone for reasons unrelated to appearance.

Sexual attraction is natural, to a person, not a house or a car.

Again, it's not necessarily the house or the car; it's the high social status that these things imply. As Henry Kissinger astutely observed, power is the greatest aphrodisiac. (Obviously some women really are gold-diggers; but it's a far smaller fraction than you seem to imagine.)

 

[piercj2]

Sexual attraction to, "social status" is not natural. No man is attracted to a women for this reason, and it does not make sense for a women to be attracted to a man for this reason. Yes, it is different to be attracted to a women for her looks, than for a women to be attracted to a man for social status. thus, "sex" implies physical attributes in a person, not social. Someones sex is determined physically, in other words, not socially. A girl is a girl and a guy is a guy, no matter how they view the world because it is physical characteristics that determine that. Therefore sesual attraction is a physical term, meaning attraction to physical qualities, not social qualities. That is just a lame excuse women use for being gold diggers

 

[piercj2]

Forgot to mention- the reaons women are attracted to men because of social status is because they want to be tied into that social status- it will make them look important in other peoples eyes, they can buy more things, they can have more respect and be envied by other women, ect- these things have NOTHING to do with "sexual" attraction

 

[OzDDS]

What you don't understand is that for many women, actual sexual attraction depends more on social attributes than on physical ones. They're not necessarily dating a man because they want his money; it's that his high social status makes him sexually attractive to them. That's no different than a woman's physical appearance making her sexually attractive to a man.

Again, it's not necessarily the house or the car; it's the high social status that these things imply. As Henry Kissinger astutely observed, power is the greatest aphrodisiac. (Obviously some women really are gold-diggers; but it's a far smaller fraction than you seem to imagine.)

That's right.. men and women are different. Men are attracted to beauty.. and women are attracted to power.

Men want to be able to spread their seed around as much as possible with the most beautiful females. (only natural) cause they can.

And women since they are the ones who carry the children and usually have to end up raising them.. they want to seek out a mate who is powerful enough to support and protect her and her future children.

This is the same across all of the animal kingdom.

Men: Want to increase your options and pull among the ladies?
*focus on your career and don't ever get married.
Earn as much money as possible and move up the corporoate ladder as high as you can get.
*Exercise and workout and get in as best physical shape as you can.

Women: Want to increase your options of men around?
*Spend your days dieting and exercising at the gym..
If you can afford plastic surgery.. get it. Spend your money on clothes that show off your breasts and legs, wear high heels and learn to walk in a way that shows off your ass.. oh and twirl your hair and flirt.


I though this was common sense by now..

 

[cowbell]

I am engaged to a 3rd year and while making wedding plans, I continue to receive a plethora of comments about my upcoming role as "The Doctor's Wife". I am interested to know what others' thoughts are on this term. Is it offensive? Is it an aspiration by some? Is it a way of referencing a bygone era when domesticity governed women? What is it?...

Though I originally started this post, I haven't been on this website in quite a while. And Wow!!! Argue much? I was surprised to see the turn the post had taken... I live in one of the nation's biggest cities. There are individuals standing on the side of the road, begging to wash my car window or sell me tube socks every day when I exit the expressway. And in the same city where that occurs, I see limo after limo after limo each day. All peoples have their problems, hurdles, struggles, sorrows. It doesn't matter who they are... It is all relative. We all have things we go through that the world doesn't see, that title or salary or marital status can't protect us against. That's why I become frustrated with how impressed people become when they learn my fiance is going to be a doctor. A common frustration, a shared disgust for people's lack of breadth in vision is what I hoped this thread would become. Not a forum for competition. I will leave you to your clambering upon each other's shoulders.

Plato's wife, are you kidding me?

how on earth did you expect a forum questioning the social significance of the "doctor's wife" to lead to a unified vision about the commonality of the human condition across socioeconomic boundries? read your own question, and see if your heated retort makes any sense.

piercj2,
what's a college kid doing waxing about female psychology on a forum dedicated to spouses of medical professionals? you clearly have no real life experience to participate meaningfully (you're not a doctor, nor are you married to one), you don't know what you are talking about, and overall, you need to grow up.

 

[piercj2]

yes, I will admit that, but don't we all in one way or another

 

[Immuno-guy]

Why do so many people keep saying that being an MD does not mean you are well off anymore? I know the salary is not what it was, but it is still about 5 times the national average family income. Thats all doctors. Perhaps 10% of MBA's earn more than a MD. Perhaps. An MD is the best career for someone who is smart and wants to be rich. No other profession creates such a reliable source of income.

I hear this talk by people justifying their MD. "If I was into money, I'd have done an MBA". I don't believe 99% of them. They are just trying to lend a sense of nobility back to the noble profession.

I love how asian and arab people are more honest. They outright say they want a lot of money. That is why there are so very many asians in MD programs. 30% asian is it? They really are the best ethnic group, by any measure.

Us WASPs have become so good at shrouding our real thoughts in politically correct euphanisms we have fooled ourselves.

 

[ComfortableWolf]

So, nobody in medicine wants to make contributions to science or academia and lives off "soft" grant money anymore, huh? And way to assume that all of us on this board are "WASPs"...I would be that most asian or arab medical students you talk to would be very offended by your statement about their so-called honesty.

 

[Qtip96]

I love how asian and arab people are more honest. They outright say they want a lot of money. That is why there are so very many asians in MD programs. 30% asian is it? They really are the best ethnic group, by any measure.

so... asians are in medical schools because they are more money-hungry? you are a racist POS.

 

[Immuno-guy]

Goodness, calm down!

I admire asians, don't you see that?!

I'm not assuming this avarice of all asians by any means. Just those I'm close to and those who speak candidly with me. And, furthermore, I'm not assuming people are of any any race on the forum; when I said 'us WASPs' I was, as implied, simply refering to the WASPS on the fourm. I was not suggesting that everyone is... how did you manage to be insulted by this?

Importantly, my wife is asian for goodness sake! Most of her friends are asian, several of my friends are asian or middle eastern. I'm in research; again look at the ethnic profiles of researchers... unless we are not allowed to admire the many ethnic groups in research either.

Why can't we just be honest and a little less sensitive? If someone makes a joke about British people having bad teeth, I laugh and agree. It is a stereotype that is generally true. That is why it is a stereotype. I'm not going to get insulted and annoyed with you about it and start throwing around accuastions such as 'xenophobic!' or 'racist!' (if it were appropriate).

If you knew me, or my wife, you know how your insults were not only inappropriate but misdirected. Having said that, I'm sorry if I insulted anyone here. No insult whatsoever was intended.

 

[f_w]

Anytime you have to use 'some of my best friends are _____', hence I can't be a _____' it is a secure sign that you got caught in some sort of sweeping usually false generalization.

 

[Qtip96]

I love how asian and arab people are more honest. They outright say they want a lot of money. That is why there are so very many asians in MD programs...

so... asians are in medical schools because they are more money-hungry? you are a racist POS.

Why can't we just be honest and a little less sensitive? If someone makes a joke about British people having bad teeth, I laugh and agree. It is a stereotype that is generally true. That is why it is a stereotype...

so... the stereotype of certain ethnic minorities "wanting more money" is "generally true", and that's the reason why they pursue a career in medicine, is it?

if THAT's the basis of your admiration, no asians i know would care for it.

i feel sorry for your wife.

my insults were RIGHT ON TARGET. thanks for proving my point...

 

[Sweenracer]

What about Doctor's Husband??? I'm an Engineer making twice as much as my Resident wife and she still gets all the recogition... It's not all it's cracked up to be.

 

[Sweenracer]

Just a little input on the little argument above regarding minorities in medicine... At my wife's hospital in Philadelphia, most of her peers are of a minorty ethnicity. They are from all over the world... so few of them are the typical caucasian white males that used to dominate the field. I think that that shows that things are changing.