Doctors underpaid

[Law2Doc]

4 years x $60,000 + 8 years housing price increase $500,000 + debt to medical school $150,000 = $890,000 LESS than a person of equivalent academic worth. We're not even talking iBanker money, or even if the engineer/consultant properly invested his money.

The calculation is actually even worse than you have indicated, because of the time value of money aka the annuity value (getting $60k now is worth more than earning $60k 4 years from now), and the fact that interest keeps compounding on educational debt -- the $150k borrowed is going to be a lot bigger than $150k by the time you pay it down.
As I have said before, medicine will let you live comfortably, but not like a rock star.

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[pyrois]

But I assure you if somebody changed the rules and I only had a slight improvement in my current craptacular resident's salary to look forward to after eight (count 'em) eight years of hard work...well...I'd quit now and go back to engineering.

Regardless of how much pay increases after residency, VERY few doctors understand how economically disadvantaged they are for having taken up medicine.

You talk about going back to engineering as if you'd be taking a financial hit (which may be true depending on the type of engineering you're talking about), but any job that pays $60k/year will easily overtake somebody entering the medical profession for about 20 years. After 20 years, a medical doctor's higher salary will overtake an engineer's extra time and reduced cost of being in engineering, but it's really not until you're in your late 40's that you really feel the power of a doctor's income.

And that's assuming you never make it into management as an engineer.

I think you mentioned in another post that most doctors would have resigned if altruism was their only motivation. That's absolutely true, because there are many motivational factors necessary to bring someone through medical training successfully. On the other hand, if you claim money is a strong enough incentive, that is also far from the truth.

The true list is so long and complex to write out in a single post, but I think many people are oversimplifying it to 'money or altruism' when those are just two tiny elements in the ultimate process.

 

[pyrois]

The calculation is actually even worse than you have indicated, because of the time value of money aka the annuity value (getting $60k now is worth more than earning $60k 4 years from now), and the fact that interest keeps compounding on educational debt -- the $150k borrowed is going to be a lot bigger than $150k by the time you pay it down.
As I have said before, medicine will let you live comfortably, but not like a rock star.

Agreed. I mean if you really wanted to, you could take into account that throughout this entire period of time (including residency) you are likely going to be paying rent while an engineer or a businessman would be paying off a mortgage.

Additionally you might consider that a businessman or an engineer would properly invest their $60k (I didn't account for the actual inflation of money because I made the assumption that all of it would be stored in a shoebox under the bed). Popping it in the bank or a savings account would give the money a boost, let alone investing in property etc.

In fact, one of the main reasons why a doctor's quality of life has such great potential in later years is that the high income allows for proper investment. Making 50k/year is MUCH different than making 60k/year since at 50k you might just be able to make ends meet for your family with no money to invest, while an extra 10k could be put to rather good use.

 

[Law2Doc]

In fact, one of the main reasons why a doctor's quality of life has such great potential in later years is that the high income allows for proper investment. Making 50k/year is MUCH different than making 60k/year since at 50k you might just be able to make ends meet for your family with no money to invest, while an extra 10k could be put to rather good use.

Up to a certain point, peoples' expenses will rise to match their incomes, though. If you couldn't save anything at $50k, you probably can't at $60k either, as you will get a slightly nicer living arrangement, a slightly nicer car, take a slightly better vacation and eat out a bit more, and then wonder why despite your quality of life barely changing, you have nothing left in the bank. The really frugal people manage better, but relatively few people are that frugal. Most other people have to work a long time, or stay single, to get to the point where savings and investment are effortless. 401k plans are popular because the money gets taken out and invested before you have a chance to waste it.

 

[pyrois]

Up to a certain point, peoples' expenses will rise to match their incomes, though. If you couldn't save anything at $50k, you probably can't at $60k either, as you will get a slightly nicer living arrangement, a slightly nicer car, take a slightly better vacation and eat out a bit more, and then wonder why despite your quality of life barely changing, you have nothing left in the bank. The really frugal people manage better, but relatively few people are that frugal. Most other people have to work a long time, or stay single, to get to the point where savings and investment are effortless. 401k plans are popular because the money gets taken out and invested before you have a chance to waste it.

Absolutely true, but I didn't want to write all that out

 

[8744]

Regardless of how much pay increases after residency, VERY few doctors understand how economically disadvantaged they are for having taken up medicine.

You talk about going back to engineering as if you'd be taking a financial hit (which may be true depending on the type of engineering you're talking about), but any job that pays $60k/year will easily overtake somebody entering the medical profession for about 20 years. After 20 years, a medical doctor's higher salary will overtake an engineer's extra time and reduced cost of being in engineering, but it's really not until you're in your late 40's that you really feel the power of a doctor's income.

And that's assuming you never make it into management as an engineer.

I think you mentioned in another post that most doctors would have resigned if altruism was their only motivation. That's absolutely true, because there are many motivational factors necessary to bring someone through medical training successfully. On the other hand, if you claim money is a strong enough incentive, that is also far from the truth.

The true list is so long and complex to write out in a single post, but I think many people are oversimplifying it to 'money or altruism' when those are just two tiny elements in the ultimate process.

My opportunity cost for quitting engineering has been four years of lost income (and I was making 70K per year) and four years of reduced income where I am losing 30K per year off of my previou salary.

Thats 400K, not even taking into account the time value of money. Add this to the quarter-million of debt and I am about half a million bucks plus behind where I would have been. people scoff but this is real money that I have lost, as surely as if somebody held me for ransom and I had to give them the money in a briefcase.

We liveda lot better on 70K than we have for the past six years, at least from a material point of view.

That's why I was mortified to find myself in family medicine which is the lowest paid branch of medicine last year. Emergency Medicine pays much better and I will "catch up" quicker. My wife cried when I had to scramble into FM. Did I mention her physics degree? She can do the math. And that's why she gave me the green light to ditch FM last year.

Then numbers are better if you never had a very high earning potential like most people right out of college so money is more of an incentive. On the other hand it won't take too many years of making triple what I made as an engineer to make up the difference.

Something for all of you non-traditional students with good jobs to think about. And no, medicine is not as much fun as you think and large portions of it suck.

 

[Law2Doc]

Something for all of you non-traditional students with good jobs to think about.

Yes, this is why nontrads are often living proof that many people actually aren't going into medicine for the money. There are other things that do and should drive your career choice. (And I am not talking about altruism).

 

[LifetimeDoc]

You mean we're gonna be poor?



Panda Bear: Do as all a favor and leave medicine. You obviously don't want to be here, despise medicine, and generally hate your future as a doctor. You'll just end up being bad for patients and your fellow physicians.

 

[Law2Doc]

Panda Bear: Do as all a favor and leave medicine. You obviously don't want to be here, despise medicine, and generally hate your future as a doctor. You'll just end up being bad for patients and your fellow physicians.

Read between the lines. Nobody who posts frequently on SDN and maintains a blog about his career path is not into it. While he seems to enjoy dishing out the dark, harsh, reality, he's clearly immersing himself in educating the premed/med school community on the issues/hurdles they will face even during his "spare" time. So the way I see it, he appears to love the field, warts and all. Most people who truly hate their job don't spend as much time during residency sharing that wisdom.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

Read between the lines. Nobody who posts frequently on SDN and maintains a blog about his career path is not into it. While he seems to enjoy dishing out the dark, harsh, reality, he's clearly immersing himself in educating the premed/med school community on the issues/hurdles they will face even during his "spare" time. So the way I see it, he appears to love the field, warts and all. Most people who truly hate their job don't spend as much time during residency sharing that wisdom.

True; a healthy-dose of reality about the negatives about medicine are a good thing for the old and the young pre-med. That's why everyone involved in the pre-med process always repeats "Don't go into it for the money". Medicine can suck at times from what I can see, but I still want to do it because it's my passion, my dream about my future.

I first read Panda Bears's blog with great interest, hearing about the thrill and the major negatives of being in medicine. It was a great read but after awhile I realized that I never ran across any positives. It's all negative from an extremely bitter person who also enjoys coming into the pre-allo forums telling everyone that medicine sucks. This person takes it to the bitter extreme because they are stuck in medicine due to the high cost of attending school. Once you get into medicine, it's hard to get out because of the debt.

We'll I'm sorry Panda Bear is stuck in medicine, that he isn't making the millions of dollars he wanted, that he's stuck in Family Practice not because it's not a specialty that he likes but because it doesn't bring in the $$$, and that he's trying to rebuild his life (aka make the maximal $$$). But coming into the pre-allo forum and telling hopeful pre-meds that you should rethink medicine isn't helpful at all. He doesn't inject a healthy dose of reality: he pines on about how he dislikes medicine so you should too. It sucks to be in a career that doesn't fulfill your life-long dreams and aspirations: I've been there; that's why I'm pre-med now.

P.S. The reason this struck a chord with me is because I WANT to go into emergency medicine or family practice because it interests me, not because of how much I can bank. When I hear people in family practice who are in that specialty because they couldn't get into a higher paying one, I'm not kind because they shouldn't be in medicine if they aren't intent on being the best physician they can be. Patients and those people who work in the various medical fields deserve better.

 

[pyrois]

True; a healthy-dose of reality about the negatives about medicine are a good thing for the old and the young pre-med.

I first read Panda Bears's blog with great interest, hearing about the thrill and the major negatives of being in medicine. It was a great read but after awhile I realized that I never ran across any positives. It's all negative from an extremely bitter person who also enjoys coming into the pre-allo forums telling everyone that medicine sucks. This person takes it to the bitter extreme because they are stuck in medicine due to the high cost of attending school. Once you get into medicine, it's hard to get out because of the debt.

Well, it could also be because bitterness and anguish are more entertaining reads than "happy happy, my life is awesome" reads. Even healthy medium levels of each don't get that much readership. Gotta take it to extremes to have a popular blog (see tucker max/maddox/fake doctor/etc.).

 

[Eric Lindros]

True; a healthy-dose of reality about the negatives about medicine are a good thing for the old and the young pre-med. That's why everyone involved in the pre-med process always repeats "Don't go into it for the money". Medicine can suck at times from what I can see, but I still want to do it because it's my passion, my dream about my future.

I first read Panda Bears's blog with great interest, hearing about the thrill and the major negatives of being in medicine. It was a great read but after awhile I realized that I never ran across any positives. It's all negative from an extremely bitter person who also enjoys coming into the pre-allo forums telling everyone that medicine sucks. This person takes it to the bitter extreme because they are stuck in medicine due to the high cost of attending school. Once you get into medicine, it's hard to get out because of the debt.

We'll I'm sorry Panda Bear is stuck in medicine, that he isn't making the millions of dollars he wanted, that he's stuck in Family Practice not because it's not a specialty that he likes but because it doesn't bring in the $$$, and that he's trying to rebuild his life (aka make the maximal $$$). But coming into the pre-allo forum and telling hopeful pre-meds that you should rethink medicine isn't helpful at all. He doesn't inject a healthy dose of reality: he pines on about how he dislikes medicine so you should too. It sucks to be in a career that doesn't fulfill your life-long dreams and aspirations: I've been there; that's why I'm pre-med now.

P.S. The reason this struck a chord with me is because I WANT to go into emergency medicine or family practice because it interests me, not because of how much I can bank. When I hear people in family practice who are in that specialty because they couldn't get into a higher paying one, I'm not kind because they shouldn't be in medicine if they aren't intent on being the best physician they can be. Patients and those people who work in the various medical fields deserve better.

I have been around these forums for a while (although I am new as a poster) and read a lot of Pandas posts. My opinion is this: the only reason that Panda seems bitter about medicine is because he had an established family life before it and medicine has "messed" with that. Anyone who has his family compromised in any way is going to be pissed off and switching from a soild paying engineering job with little debt to a career that sucks out hundreds of thousands of dollars from you without much return is going to put major strain on your family life. I'm sure if Panda never had a family his views would be a little different.

I think when I get older, family will be most important to me. In this aspect I don't think I could ever be a non trad student with a family and a steady job and ditch it to go into medicine because its just too much of a burden on the family. However, I really have no obligations right now so what does it matter if I am poor? I don't know what family strain is and I would rather not until I am in residency because that way, I will at least not have seen the greener side and therefore not know the difference.

 

[8744]

You mean we're gonna be poor?



Panda Bear: Do as all a favor and leave medicine. You obviously don't want to be here, despise medicine, and generally hate your future as a doctor. You'll just end up being bad for patients and your fellow physicians.

Hey, if you can't handle the bad as well as the good, please visit the companion blog to Panda Bear, MD, "Panda Loves Chachi." You'll find the link below. Enjoy.

http://pandaloveschaci.blogspot.com/

 

[8744]

Well, it could also be because bitterness and anguish are more entertaining reads than "happy happy, my life is awesome" reads. Even healthy medium levels of each don't get that much readership. Gotta take it to extremes to have a popular blog (see tucker max/maddox/fake doctor/etc.).

I'd hardly say that my blog is extreme in either direction. I think it's pretty balanced and I believe that anybody who has started residency would say so. The fact is that there is a lot wrong with medicine, medical training, and most of your patients. I guess I could be a Polyanna and just relate how wonderful everything is and how much I crave every single richly rewarding minute of my training but then, as you point out, who would read it? If you want that all you have to do is read SDN.

If you want an extreme view then I'd encourage you to read Brother Stox's blog, Med School Hell, the link to which can be found on my blog. I'm Little Mary Sunshine by comparrison.

 

[8744]

True; a healthy-dose of reality about the negatives about medicine are a good thing for the old and the young pre-med. That's why everyone involved in the pre-med process always repeats "Don't go into it for the money". Medicine can suck at times from what I can see, but I still want to do it because it's my passion, my dream about my future.

I first read Panda Bears's blog with great interest, hearing about the thrill and the major negatives of being in medicine. It was a great read but after awhile I realized that I never ran across any positives. It's all negative from an extremely bitter person who also enjoys coming into the pre-allo forums telling everyone that medicine sucks. This person takes it to the bitter extreme because they are stuck in medicine due to the high cost of attending school. Once you get into medicine, it's hard to get out because of the debt.

We'll I'm sorry Panda Bear is stuck in medicine, that he isn't making the millions of dollars he wanted, that he's stuck in Family Practice not because it's not a specialty that he likes but because it doesn't bring in the $$$, and that he's trying to rebuild his life (aka make the maximal $$$). But coming into the pre-allo forum and telling hopeful pre-meds that you should rethink medicine isn't helpful at all. He doesn't inject a healthy dose of reality: he pines on about how he dislikes medicine so you should too. It sucks to be in a career that doesn't fulfill your life-long dreams and aspirations: I've been there; that's why I'm pre-med now.

P.S. The reason this struck a chord with me is because I WANT to go into emergency medicine or family practice because it interests me, not because of how much I can bank. When I hear people in family practice who are in that specialty because they couldn't get into a higher paying one, I'm not kind because they shouldn't be in medicine if they aren't intent on being the best physician they can be. Patients and those people who work in the various medical fields deserve better.

I am not stuck in family practice. I matched out of it into Emergency Medicine last March and am currently a full-fledged Emergency Medicine resident at an undisclosed location in the Midwest. I don't know how anybody could get the idea from my blog that I dislike Emergency Medicine. Now, it's true that, as Law2doc points out, I present the field warts and all but that's only because it has so many warts. You either like the warts or you don't but many on SDN think they don't exist.

Oh, and I'm currently working on an article tentatively titled "Gatekeeper" about a day in a family practice clinic. I apologize in advance because it is very realistic and may talk you out of family practice. You will at least gulp and say, "Golly, I'd better look into this some more."

Again, my apologies for not sugar-coating things.

 

[dutchman]

True; a healthy-dose of reality about the negatives about medicine are a good thing for the old and the young pre-med. That's why everyone involved in the pre-med process always repeats "Don't go into it for the money". Medicine can suck at times from what I can see, but I still want to do it because it's my passion, my dream about my future.

I first read Panda Bears's blog with great interest, hearing about the thrill and the major negatives of being in medicine. It was a great read but after awhile I realized that I never ran across any positives. It's all negative from an extremely bitter person who also enjoys coming into the pre-allo forums telling everyone that medicine sucks. This person takes it to the bitter extreme because they are stuck in medicine due to the high cost of attending school. Once you get into medicine, it's hard to get out because of the debt.

We'll I'm sorry Panda Bear is stuck in medicine, that he isn't making the millions of dollars he wanted, that he's stuck in Family Practice not because it's not a specialty that he likes but because it doesn't bring in the $$$, and that he's trying to rebuild his life (aka make the maximal $$$). But coming into the pre-allo forum and telling hopeful pre-meds that you should rethink medicine isn't helpful at all. He doesn't inject a healthy dose of reality: he pines on about how he dislikes medicine so you should too. It sucks to be in a career that doesn't fulfill your life-long dreams and aspirations: I've been there; that's why I'm pre-med now.

P.S. The reason this struck a chord with me is because I WANT to go into emergency medicine or family practice because it interests me, not because of how much I can bank. When I hear people in family practice who are in that specialty because they couldn't get into a higher paying one, I'm not kind because they shouldn't be in medicine if they aren't intent on being the best physician they can be. Patients and those people who work in the various medical fields deserve better.

With all the competition to get into medschool you best believe people already know the positives and probably don't know enough of the negatives. Personally, I would rather hear the negatives so I can align myself with reality as opposed to the unhealthy dreamland most premeds live in.

 

[45408]

Panda Bear: Do as all a favor and leave medicine. You obviously don't want to be here, despise medicine, and generally hate your future as a doctor. You'll just end up being bad for patients and your fellow physicians.

Open mouth. Insert foot.

 

[tncekm]

Again, my apologies for not sugar-coating things.

Ignore the whiners...I love your blogs. I crack-up when I read them. As was said earlier, a heatlhy dose of reality is a great thing.

I know I'm going to hate life when I get into medical school, and I know there is a distinct chance I won't match into the residency of my choice (and that would suck), but its still what I want to do.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

Open mouth. Insert foot.

Not really; just fighting back against hyper-negativity.

I know that Panda Bear is trying to be anti touchy-feely, but it goes too far. Medicine shouldn't be sugar coated, but medicine isn't all that bad.

 

[pyrois]

I'd hardly say that my blog is extreme in either direction. I think it's pretty balanced and I believe that anybody who has started residency would say so. The fact is that there is a lot wrong with medicine, medical training, and most of your patients. I guess I could be a Polyanna and just relate how wonderful everything is and how much I crave every single richly rewarding minute of my training but then, as you point out, who would read it? If you want that all you have to do is read SDN.

If you want an extreme view then I'd encourage you to read Brother Stox's blog, Med School Hell, the link to which can be found on my blog. I'm Little Mary Sunshine by comparrison.

I've never read your blog before. I don't really have time to read about other people's problems if I can't do anything about them I was just making a general statement.

 

[Law2Doc]

Not really; just fighting back against hyper-negativity.

Hyper-negativity (translated, cold hard reality) is very much a minority on these boards and more should be encouraged, not fought against. People come here for advice, and sometimes good advice isn't always pleasant. If not for the few posters who speak out about various hurdles, folks on here would be thinking they had a shot with a 2.8/20, that things like interviews don't really matter, that med school would be easier than undergrad, that everyone matches into their desired field, that they will be able to work 40 hours a week during residency, and then be living like a rockstar until they retire at age 35. Too many cheerleaders, not enough realists, exist on these boards. Balance is better. Face it, there are positives AND negatives to every major decision. It is naive to think this one is any different. Best to let the PBs of the world weigh in.

 

[DoctorPardi]

Hyper-negativity (translated, cold hard reality) is very much a minority on these boards and more should be encouraged, not fought against. People come here for advice, and sometimes good advice isn't always pleasant. If not for the few posters who speak out about various hurdles, folks on here would be thinking they had a shot with a 2.8/20, that things like interviews don't really matter, that med school would be easier than undergrad, that everyone matches into their desired field, that they will be able to work 40 hours a week during residency, and then be living like a rockstar until they retire at age 35. Too many cheerleaders, not enough realists, exist on these boards. Balance is better. Face it, there are positives AND negatives to every major decision. It is naive to think this one is any different. Best to let the PBs of the world weigh in.

L2D and PB sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G .

Anyway, I agree. Medicine isn't all saving lives and raking in millions of dollars. SDN shouldn't just be about helping people get into medical school. It should help people understand if medical school (ie being a doctor) is even right for them.

 

[aliziry]

Law2Doc are you in med school right now or what? I have never been really sure abou that. But anywho yes being a doctor is not all jolly but it sure beats other professions. Perhaps if every bird and bloke did not expect to become a millionare out of med school, there would not be so many unhappy docs as we speak.

 

[Law2Doc]

Perhaps if every bird and bloke did not expect to become a millionare out of med school, there would not be so many unhappy docs as we speak.

Clearly.

 

[Towelie]

Hyper-negativity (translated, cold hard reality) is very much a minority on these boards and more should be encouraged, not fought against. People come here for advice, and sometimes good advice isn't always pleasant. If not for the few posters who speak out about various hurdles, folks on here would be thinking they had a shot with a 2.8/20, that things like interviews don't really matter, that med school would be easier than undergrad, that everyone matches into their desired field, that they will be able to work 40 hours a week during residency, and then be living like a rockstar until they retire at age 35. Too many cheerleaders, not enough realists, exist on these boards. Balance is better. Face it, there are positives AND negatives to every major decision. It is naive to think this one is any different. Best to let the PBs of the world weigh in.

You can work 40 hours a week during residency. Just be a dermatologist or a pathologist That's my plan

http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/spcindx/0,,TR,00.html

 

[Law2Doc]

You can work 40 hours a week during residency. Just be a dermatologist or a pathologist That's my plan

http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/spcindx/0,,TR,00.html

If you read your link you will see that both those fields average at 45 hours/wk or higher. Those are probably skewed because the newer residents tend to work more and it goes down with seniority. And you can't really "plan" to be a derm resident -- you have to do a lot to put yourself in that position.

 

[aliziry]

Clearly.

U didnt answer my question though mate.

 

[Sarg's kid]

whereas the highest paid Doctor profession get a maximum of 1m per year ( now remember it ranges from 300k-600k usually, so 1m is very rare)

Wow. Hate tu burst your bubble, but doctors don't make 300k a year.

http://chc.ucsf.edu/archives/physiciansnotleaving.htm

"The tenor of media and trade publication articles suggest a high level of
anxiety among California doctors in a managed care environment where some
perceive physicians to be working more and making less," said O'Neil. "Althoughmanaged care may be dampening the rate of increase of physician incomes, especially for specialists, California physicians have median incomes ranging from $120,000 to $250,000. These are comparable to those reported for physicians nationwide and well above $33,000, the mean income for California."

Just one example. Doctors don't make gangsta money. They make enough to live comfortably, as previously stated, but don't have any ideas about clearing 300k.

 

[Towelie]

If you read your link you will see that both those fields average at 45 hours/wk or higher. Those are probably skewed because the newer residents tend to work more and it goes down with seniority. And you can't really "plan" to be a derm resident -- you have to do a lot to put yourself in that position.

It's about 50 hours per week for a first year path resident (my best friend is one). That's not bad. Especially considering that a surgical intern works 80+.

You can absolutely plan to be a derm resident. You have to do really well to be one, but there's nothing wrong with planning to do so. If you go to a top school, get a strong board score (easier said than done), and get your name on a pub or 2, then getting a derm match shouldn't be a problem.

That said, I have absolutely no interest in derm. I don't want to be pimple-popper, MD.

 

[Towelie]

Wow. Hate tu burst your bubble, but doctors don't make 300k a year.

http://chc.ucsf.edu/archives/physiciansnotleaving.htm

"The tenor of media and trade publication articles suggest a high level of
anxiety among California doctors in a managed care environment where some
perceive physicians to be working more and making less," said O'Neil. "Althoughmanaged care may be dampening the rate of increase of physician incomes, especially for specialists, California physicians have median incomes ranging from $120,000 to $250,000. These are comparable to those reported for physicians nationwide and well above $33,000, the mean income for California."

Just one example. Doctors don't make gangsta money. They make enough to live comfortably, as previously stated, but don't have any ideas about clearing 300k.

Depends entirely on your specialty. Check www.salary.com

The average radiologist, otolaryngologist, etc in the United States makes over 300K per year.

 

[Law2Doc]

It's about 50 hours per week for a first year path resident (my best friend is one). That's not bad. Especially considering that a surgical intern works 80+.

You can absolutely plan to be a derm resident. You have to do really well to be one, but there's nothing wrong with planning to do so. If you go to a top school, get a strong board score (easier said than done), and get your name on a pub or 2, then getting a derm match shouldn't be a problem.

That said, I have absolutely no interest in derm. I don't want to be pimple-popper, MD.

I think the "easier said than done" part of your post is the most important.

 

[Towelie]

I think the "easier said than done" part of your post is the most important.

Depends on who you are I guess. Some people would have no trouble getting a derm residency. For others, it would be impossible. Depends on whether you're smart enough and have the motivation.

 

[Law2Doc]

Depends entirely on your specialty. Check www.salary.com

The average radiologist, otolaryngologist, etc in the United States makes over 300K per year.

Your site is not accurate. Here is the JAMA averages from a few years ago. (Salaries have on average gone slightly down, not up since then). According to this, neither specialty averages over 300k per year, I'm afraid.
http://www.medfriends.org/specialty_hours_worked.htm

While Salary.com is a nice place to look, it's data is not really industry specific and is based on factors which skew things upwards.

 

[Law2Doc]

Depends on who you are I guess. Some people would have no trouble getting a derm residency. For others, it would be impossible. Depends on whether you're smart enough and have the motivation.

You will see in med school that everyone you are competing with is smart and motivated too. Hard work and desire does not always win out. About half of med school students, most of whom got A's in college, get shocked to learn they are below average after the first couple of tests. It is the great awakening. Some people get knocked down a peg and are much quieter in class after that.

 

[Towelie]

Your site is not accurate. Here is the JAMA averages from a few years ago. (Salaries have on average gone slightly down, not up since then). According to this, neither specialty averages over 300k per year, I'm afraid.
http://www.medfriends.org/specialty_hours_worked.htm

While Salary.com is a nice place to look, it's data is not really industry specific and is based on factors which skew things upwards.

How do you know which one is accurate? Maybe the JAMA stats skew things downwards. There is absolutely no way that you could know, unless you are an expert in this area.

 

[DrMom]

There can be significant salary variation depending on what part of the country you're in, too.

 

[Towelie]

You will see in med school that everyone you are competing with is smart and motivated too. Hard work and desire does not always win out. About half of med school students, most of whom got A's in college, get shocked to learn they are below average after the first couple of tests. It is the great awakening. Some people get knocked down a peg and are much quieter in class after that.

I don't buy this for a second. Sure, everyone in med school is smart and motivated. But some people are much smarter than others. That's just a fact. It's not like everyone in medical school is equal. So, like I said, a derm residency won't be a problem if you're smart and motivated enough.

 

[Towelie]

There can be significant salary variation depending on what part of the country you're in, too.

True.

Law2Doc, look at this website: http://www.cejkasearch.com/compensation/amga_physician_compensation_survey.htm

It's actually a link from the website you posted above. Talk about skewed upwards...

 

[Arc]

With all the competition to get into medschool you best believe people already know the positives and probably don't know enough of the negatives. Personally, I would rather hear the negatives so I can align myself with reality as opposed to the unhealthy dreamland most premeds live in.

I think that's the purpose of getting as many job shadows as possible. So that you can see both the "rosy" days and the "rainy" days of the profession

 

[Law2Doc]

How do you know which one is accurate? Maybe the JAMA stats skew things downwards. There is absolutely no way that you could know, unless you are an expert in this area.

Maybe not with certainty. But when you start noting that salary.com it is out of whack with the UCSF data and the JAMA data on this thread page, along with lower average physician salary figures cited in articles in the NY Times, AMSA's The New Physician (discussing the 7% drop in salaries discussed earlier in this thread), etc. you probably should have a sense that those numbers do not appear to be quite in line. Plus the fact that JAMA is one of main the industry specific journals, and salary.com isn't.
So no, I don't know which is accurate. But don't rely on such figures as gospel, as there are credible suggestions to the contrary.

 

[Towelie]

Maybe not with certainty. But when you start noting that salary.com it is out of whack with the UCSF data and the JAMA data on this thread page, along with lower average physician salary figures cited in articles in the NY Times, AMSA's The New Physician (discussing the 7% drop in salaries discussed earlier in this thread), etc. you probably should have a sense that those numbers do not appear to be quite in line. Plus the fact that JAMA is one of main the industry specific journals, and salary.com isn't.
So no, I don't know which is accurate. But don't rely on such figures as gospel, as there are credible suggestions to the contrary.

Again, look at this site: http://www.cejkasearch.com/compensation/amga_physician_compensation_survey.htm

It has averages even above those of www.salary.com

 

[MinnyGophers]

Oh comon surely your not telling me money isnt a factor for u? you know theres ALOT more jobs out there where u get to help people and get paid nothing so why not do that instead?

im sick of people who say money isnt an issue for them to look good here but it is whether they wanna admit it or not..

i just find it unfair when HARD WORKING surgeons WORK THEIR **** OFF TO GET IN MED SCHOOL and become surgeons and have AN 18 OR EVEN YOUNGER ACT IN A MOVIE AND EARN MORE THAN THEY DOCTOR WILL IN HIS LIFETIME.

a reasonable society we live in huh?

You must be very young and naive or you simply do not understand the simplest law in economics: supply and demand....

-First of all, where in the world are you going to find enough money to pay all physicians upward of millions of dollars? Do you even KNOW what a salary is and how it works?
-Second of all, if the types of Lindsay Lohan get paid 20 millions/ movie (and there is no way she gets that much per movie, I do not have that huge of a knowledge of the cinematic industry, but I believe Oscar winners don't even get paid that much) that is because there is an audience out there who DIRECTLY PAYS to go see her movies. The money paid by the audience doesn't go through a long chain of paperwork and insurance files before handing up in her pocket.

-Third of all, a lot of docs do their job because they enjoy their work. It may be true that money is probably a good reason for a lot of them to keep doing it ( obviously, after what we go through in med school and afterward and all the debts we accumulate over these 8+ years, you ought to pay it back somehow), but I'd think most people are happy enough with how much money they already earn, especially compared to the rest of the normal population
-Fourth, why don;t you just go try your luck being an actor? After all, since we don't get paid "that much", it's not worth it, right?

 

[Law2Doc]

True.

Law2Doc, look at this website: http://www.cejkasearch.com/compensation/amga_physician_compensation_survey.htm

It's actually a link from the website you posted above. Talk about skewed upwards...

In another thread I already indicated why this one is not comprehensive, by admission of its own footnote. It does not purport to cover the national average. It covers only large group practitioners in a majority of states. The average AMGA member group has 272 physicians. If it covered all physicians, the numbers could be very different (and in fact are). I would rely on salary.com before this one, but I would rely on JAMA over salary.com. Consider them all, but some merit more caution than others.

 

[45408]

I don't buy this for a second. Sure, everyone in med school is smart and motivated. But some people are much smarter than others. That's just a fact. It's not like everyone in medical school is equal. So, like I said, a derm residency won't be a problem if you're smart and motivated enough.

are you in med school yet? L2D is right on the money. It's a slap in the face when you realize you're a lot dumber than you might have thought. EVERYONE in your class is used to being the A student in undergrad, and only a few of them get to stay there. Your undergrad/MCAT performance isn't going to be very indicative of where you will stand 4 years later.

 

[DoctorPardi]

How do you know which one is accurate? Maybe the JAMA stats skew things downwards. There is absolutely no way that you could know, unless you are an expert in this area.

You don't know anything for sure, but you take the credibility of the source into account. I would put my money on JAMA being more correct than salary.com because they are more credible, to me at least.

 

[DoctorPardi]

are you in med school yet? L2D is right on the money. It's a slap in the face when you realize you're a lot dumber than you might have thought. EVERYONE in your class is used to being the A student in undergrad, and only a few of them get to stay there. Your undergrad/MCAT performance isn't going to be very indicative of where you will stand 4 years later.

Yeah, think about the two or three people in each of your classes who are always getting A's. You might be one of them. Then think about having a class that is full of those people.

You know everyone in medical school isn't making all A's. So what must be going on? Some of those people who used to be all "A" students are making C's.

I know I am not going to be the class genius, and to be honest sometimes I can be pretty lazy. So I am planning on going into medical school with some apprehension towards how well I will do. Right now I think being an orthopod would be a great specialty, but I also have enough humility to realize, if I don't do really well, that may not be a possibility. Of course, I don't think I'll fail out or anything, and the vast majority of people in medical school do make it to MD, but what percentage of them made Honors, or High Pass all the way through?

 

[dutchman]

I don't buy this for a second. Sure, everyone in med school is smart and motivated. But some people are much smarter than others. That's just a fact. It's not like everyone in medical school is equal. So, like I said, a derm residency won't be a problem if you're smart and motivated enough.

Yes sir it will

 

[Towelie]

are you in med school yet? L2D is right on the money. It's a slap in the face when you realize you're a lot dumber than you might have thought. EVERYONE in your class is used to being the A student in undergrad, and only a few of them get to stay there. Your undergrad/MCAT performance isn't going to be very indicative of where you will stand 4 years later.

Not yet. But I still don't buy this. GPA and MCAT have both been shown to be pretty strong predictors of USMLE performance and residency placement. I have confidence in my ability to succeed in medical school and on the boards, and to go where I want for residency. I'm not saying that it won't take a ton of work and motivation. But I have confidence in my ability to do it.

There are differences between medical students in their abilities. Not everyone has the same undergrad GPA, the same MCAT, the same talent for research, the same IQ, etc. There are ranges for these things, and my guess is that they are very good predictors of medical school success.

 

[Towelie]

Yes sir it will

Maybe for you. Not for everyone.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

It's about 50 hours per week for a first year path resident (my best friend is one). That's not bad. Especially considering that a surgical intern works 80+.

It's not bad seeing as I work 60+ hrs a week as an RT. I love around a site frequented mostly by kids whom most have never had to completely support themselves before.