Do you wanna know why they're opening more schools?

[nampa1]

I think the surplus is a great thing. The army of unemployed pharmacists outside my supermarket will make me be thankful of my job more and work harder. I'm sure if I sacrifice all my time off, work off the clock and grovel in front of my boss he will reward me with keeping me on the job, even when it becomes more profitable to hire a new pharmacist or if my position becomes unprofitable; at which point I will obligingly leave. Pharmacists unwilling to work in conditions akin to the bag boy at the front do not have the passion to work in the field .

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[docss26]

I love how you people think that if there is a crunch, grades will be the first assessment for a job. Trust me when I say company and your work experience will be way more important.

I never said it was solely grades.I clearly said hard work in general which can mean different things, including what you said about work experience.

 

[atticus27]

I love how you people ......

What do you mean, "you people?"

 

[MrMeowphers]

dual major FTW!

 

[OutCast]

I think the surplus is a great thing. The army of unemployed pharmacists outside my supermarket will make me be thankful of my job more and work harder. I'm sure if I sacrifice all my time off, work off the clock and grovel in front of my boss he will reward me with keeping me on the job, even when it becomes more profitable to hire a new pharmacist or if my position becomes unprofitable; at which point I will obligingly leave. Pharmacists unwilling to work in conditions akin to the bag boy at the front do not have the passion to work in the field .

LOL, this whole thread has somehow made me feel partially thankful I am pursuing a field with moderate demand(ultrasound technology) that's my passion.




To THINK I was considering pharmacy just because it pays 6 figures and WAS in high demand makes me laugh.



This thread has taught me that your chosen career path can change rapidly. Therefore, pursue your passion and just hope for the best!!!


Don't worry about the worldly problems(economy,rapid decrease of finite resources, starvation in third world countries) which INCLUDES worrying about the demand for your chosen profession because your not in any leadership position to deal with them. Therefore, what does worrying about it do?


Do you really think the human race is stupid(as a whole) enough not to plan for such problems? In the future the water shortage problem will be solved by nano-technology

http://www.zyvex.com/nano/

"In the future, nanotechnology will let us take off the boxing gloves. We'll be able to snap together the fundamental building blocks of nature easily, inexpensively and in most of the ways permitted by the laws of physics. This will be essential if we are to continue the revolution in computer hardware beyond about the next decade, and will also let us fabricate an entire new generation of products that are cleaner, stronger, lighter, and more precise."









Cliffs:

Stop worrying about employment and just pursue your passion in peace people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[pharmwannebe2]

What do you mean, "you people?"

i don't get the reference???!

 

[pharmwannebe2]

I never said it was solely grades.I clearly said hard work in general which can mean different things, including what you said about work experience.

i meant themorphinerules. i thought quoting your statement would quote his because you quoted it.

 

[pharmwannebe2]

I like seeing this competition for jobs, because employers can choose more. Warm bodies won't suffice as much in this market as they used to.

I haven't really seen many decreases in permanent position salaries yet, although seeing it in the temporary assignment/contract work side of things because there are many pharmacists looking for work right now. Clinical specialist & pharmacy director (especially hospital) positions are still in high demand and I have not seen salary decreases there. Of course, I see companies that are in a budget crunch to save money and cannot pay additional relocation money, etc. Definitely in this time, see how you can be as valuable as possible as a pharmacist.

I think we will see salary hold steady (rather than increases we may have expected to continually see before).

really? clinical positions are in high demand. Everyone i seem to talk to says how they are really hard to get.

 

[KARM12]

really? clinical positions are in high demand. Everyone i seem to talk to says how they are really hard to get.

Clinical positions are in high demand for properly qualified candidates. The chances of getting a clinical specialist position without residency training are slim. We have 2 specialist positions open in my hospital that they can't fill.

 

[uicgrad]

Which hospital is that?

 

[714mdh77]

True, some can't do math. Or worse yet, they go off of one person's opinion and go ranting on here about it. No way will there be over 100,000 new pharmacists in 10 years. Maybe 25,000 at most. There just aren't and will not be that many pharmacy schools around to pump out that many pharmacists. So, doing the math, ~40,000 new jobs (based on the 17% growth rate in the next decade) - 25,000 new pharmacists (based on the link below) = 15,000 new jobs still available. So based on these numbers, the demand won't be met for quite some time.

http://www.hhs.gov/pharmacy/phpharm/howmany.html

To the critics, this data is kind of old, but it's not that far off on the projections up to this point.

Really, I wish people on here would stop trying to create fear. Stop trying to dishearten those that are in pharmacy school/ those that are looking forward to getting into pharmacy school.

Milly, Thanks for the info. If the a person has a passion in this field, doesn't matter what may happen in the future the person is still pursuing this career and I am the one, doesn't matter what the consequences are going to be. I like a career in pharmacy, I have strong passion in this field, I am still pursuing in this career.

 

[pharmwannebe2]

Clinical positions are in high demand for properly qualified candidates. The chances of getting a clinical specialist position without residency training are slim. We have 2 specialist positions open in my hospital that they can't fill.

wow in chicago...everyone on this forum keeps saying how chicago is oversaturated.

 

[type b pharmD]

wow in chicago...everyone on this forum keeps saying how chicago is oversaturated.

A lot of people on this forum are whiners and need to man up and do what they need to do. Thats the cold truth.

In every other field, applicants must compete for jobs.

 

[rebith75]

Doesnt the medical school "body" regulate the number of schools, to sort of control the demand of its students that work so hard to get into a school, and put off making money for 8+ years in order to earn the degree....why is it that Pharmacy cannot do the same?? The law school model obviously being the other way to go. Who do we complain to?

 

[EddieL]

Doesnt the medical school "body" regulate the number of schools, to sort of control the demand of its students that work so hard to get into a school, and put off making money for 8+ years in order to earn the degree....why is it that Pharmacy cannot do the same?? The law school model obviously being the other way to go. Who do we complain to?

Medical schools are having a remotely similar problem. Several schools are opening, but there are no new residency slots, so it just defers problems.

If you want to complain, here's the culprit.

 

[homeslice]

A lot of people on this forum are whiners and need to man up and do what they need to do. Thats the cold truth.

In every other field, applicants must compete for jobs.

I hear you here.

"I can't get a job handed to me in downtown (insert big city) working 9-5 and making 6 figures. Wahhhhh!!"

 

[type b pharmD]

.

 

[rxforlife2004]

A lot of people on this forum are whiners and need to man up and do what they need to do. Thats the cold truth.

In every other field, applicants must compete for jobs.

This is true, except for the last part. What if there is no job out there to compete?

 

[type b pharmD]

This is true, except for the last part. What if there is no job out there to compete?

Ever noticed all the people out there taking drugs?

 

[EddieL]

Ever noticed all the people out there taking drugs?

It's also worth noting the number of pharmacy schools has increased by nearly 50%, with most of these news schools yet to produce a graduating class. When these schools start pumping out graduates, the surplus will continue to rise drastically. CVS/Walgreens have been cutting back on staff every way possible. Walgreen's POWER seems like it will soon become the standard, allowing more cuts. Mail order is becoming more popular, and this will have an effect similar to POWER.

There are many people taking drugs, but that doesn't automatically guarantee you a job. The number of graduates is causing much saturation. It's already very difficult to get a job in city areas, simply check the thread posted recently about jobs in Columbus, Ohio if you don't believe me. A surplus is never good in any profession

Is pharmacy doomed? No, but these new schools are not helping anything.

 

[type b pharmD]

It's also worth noting the number of pharmacy schools has increased by nearly 50%, with most of these news schools yet to produce a graduating class. When these schools start pumping out graduates, the surplus will continue to rise drastically. CVS/Walgreens have been cutting back on staff every way possible. Walgreen's POWER seems like it will soon become the standard, allowing more cuts. Mail order is becoming more popular, and this will have an effect similar to POWER.

There are many people taking drugs, but that doesn't automatically guarantee you a job. The number of graduates is causing much saturation. It's already very difficult to get a job in city areas, simply check the thread posted recently about jobs in Columbus, Ohio if you don't believe me. A surplus is never good in any profession

Is pharmacy doomed? No, but these new schools are not helping anything.

But even in big cities in saturated markets you see routinely, if you work hard for a chain and are one of their better workers, you'll still have a decent shot of getting a job. Hell NYC cvs hired half of their interns, that's a pretty nice deal for a major metro area with what 4 schools?

 

[EddieL]

But even in big cities in saturated markets you see routinely, if you work hard for a chain and are one of their better workers, you'll still have a decent shot of getting a job. Hell NYC cvs hired half of their interns, that's a pretty nice deal for a major metro area with what 4 schools?

The key word is half. Half is not a lot in comparison to the past years where almost all interns who did a good job got one. If your pharmacy manager is a jerk and doesn't like you for whatever reason, you're out of a job. If your pharmacy manager loves you, but they decide all the interns are awesome and just randomly take half, then you're out of a job. Since few chains are hiring from outside of their interns and you have little experience, where are you going to go? Additionally, it's getting increasingly competitive to just get an intern position. Everyone will be just as motivated as you as they will know how tough it was to get the position, let alone what the job market looks like.

Saying the pharmacist market is not saturated at this point is just denial. People can go claim there are plenty of jobs out there (there aren't) until they are blue, it is not going to change anything.

 

[rxforlife2004]

Ever noticed all the people out there taking drugs?

Well, yes...people always take drugs, but that doesn't give u a job! Get it straight, would you? It's part of me...who already has been a pharmacist for years...and not going anywhere...that make YOU, a future pharmacist out of job. WHy? because i don't wanna leave my job, and too bad my company/hospital doesn't have extra opening!!!!!

ANyway, either you're very naive or never been out there in the pharmacy workforce. If you're naive...time for you to learn. If you have never been in the workforce, too bad...

 

[Old]

Just curious as to the positions offered to interns after they graduate. Are they for existing empty positions in stores? Have these stores been operating with only one pharmacist?

You should become familiar with Jack Welch's(former GE chairman) 20-70-10 employee evaluation policy. Every year 10% of the employees/pharmacists are to be let go and new ones hired. The "bottom" 10% are determined by DM's and Psup. Are they terrible pharms? Most are over 50 but that is just a coincIdence I am sure. Most have been and still are great pharms. In my area interns are being hired for stores where there are no openings.....yet. If they decide they don't like you- you will be the next target.

The amazing part of students that I have found is that you never did the job but yet you have it all figured out. You may intern somewhere and be the extra person and think its easy. Wait until you are the only pharmacist there, work 14 hour days, limited tech help etc etc. You just have to work hard, stand out and they will love you. right? At least until you numbers/ metrics aren't good or a couple of customers complain or they find someone they think might be better. there is NO job security since there are so many people wanting your job.

Every year the chains hire some graduates/interns. They want to have a presence at the pharm schools. They aren't hiring for empty positions for the most part but are just going to replace someone else who was perceived to be great just a year ago. Fame is fleeting and learn Jack Welch's employee evaluation program- Its used by all the chains now. You'll love it.

 

[MountainPharmD]

ANyway, either you're very naive or never been out there in the pharmacy workforce. If you're naive...time for you to learn. If you have never been in the workforce, too bad...

Gotta love students! They know all the answers and have it all figured out. All without ever working one day as a Pharmacist. Wow I wish I were that smart when I was in school.

 

[type b pharmD]

Well, yes...people always take drugs, but that doesn't give u a job! Get it straight, would you? It's part of me...who already has been a pharmacist for years...and not going anywhere...that make YOU, a future pharmacist out of job. WHy? because i don't wanna leave my job, and too bad my company/hospital doesn't have extra opening!!!!!

ANyway, either you're very naive or never been out there in the pharmacy workforce. If you're naive...time for you to learn. If you have never been in the workforce, too bad...

6000 pharmacists retire every year. Just gotta be a better candidate than the next 2 or three people. You must be pretty insecure about your own work skills if you're that worried.

And for your information, I am not naive, I have held down full time work since I graduated high school, paid taxes, supported myself, and have years of pharmacy experience in hospital and nuclear settings. Guess what -- to be hired at my facility for my current intern job, I had to be the best candidate out of TWENTY motivated pharmacy student applicants... I expect it will be the same when i graduate. But across the nation there is never going to be 20 applicants competing for one job. In order for that to happen, we'd have to at least double or triple the current number of pharmacy schools. So to all you pissed off people in the retail world, I feel somewhat sorry for you that you chose what you did, but really, I cant feel sorry for anyone who keeps working in a job they hate. You always have options. Either kiss some ass and move up, kiss some ass and do a lateral transfer to a rural area, polish up your skills and beg for a non retail job, save money and open your own shop, or get out of the field and move on to something else. There's nothing we can do about the number of schools, and there's nothing any of us can do to change the retail chains corporate strategies.

People always take drugs, and yes, that doesnt guarantee you a job. But people will still need pharmacists, and guess who is going to be hired? People who have their **** together. All i'm saying is, if you dont, then you better freakin get started. And if you can't cut it then move to a different field.

I would make the argument that you rxforlife2004 and mountainpharmD are the real naive ones for taking jobs in retail. Did you not expect it to end up like this? How you guys could sell out and then complain about selling out is beyond me.

I will however take your advice and never set foot in retail as long as i live. But then again, that was never my plan anyway. Retail pharmacy is a joke as far as i'm concerned, and anyone who pays a hundred grand in order to work in that environment must either have a screw loose or have a much much higher tolerance for pain than I do.

And to respond to "Old" - working in a non retail setting will avoid all of that customer compliance bull****, also, with regard to workload of a pharmacist being different than that of an intern, maybe that's how it works where you're from, but in my pharmacy intern experience, I have had to take the full workload of a technician in ADDITION to intern duties, and it is nowhere near what i would call stressful. I dont know where you all hang out , but I havent met a pharmacist yet that doesnt at least enjoy their job. Most of them I have worked with look forward to coming into work every day and love what they do. Dont take your own bad experience (which, i at least hope you walked into with your eyes open) and generalize it towards everyone else.

And to mountain, and anyone else who is a chronic whiner, just a little tip, your attitude in life goes a long way towards determining your happiness. Because regardless of my "experience" level in life (some) , retail pharmacy (none) or just working in general, there has not been a single day in a pharmacy that I havent enjoyed. Personally I wouldnt even take a job at a facility where pharmacists had attitudes like yours. I wonder how your techs feel working for someone who is so angry all the time.

I suspect you wont even be able to understand that given your bitter, burnt out attitude. But, i guess that's to be expected given that you work retail for a chain in a metro area.

 

[Old]

Your correct in saying that not areas will have 5 applicants for a job. In my area Kmart had an opening for a 30 hour / week pharm. They definitely did not get 5 applicants--they got 16 of them. We are rural. Some areas of the country i am sure have somewhat of a shortage but I don't think you will find many areas that have less than 5 applicants. If all those Kroger pharms in columbus got laid off I would be willing to bet they are applying everywhere to get a job to support their family and pay off the school loans.

Haven't really seen many of the reitred pharms in my area(although some are unwillingly retired). Pharmacy is usually not the kind of job that you retire early from although the wages are light years ahead of what they were 10 years ago when there was a real shortage.

as far as kissing a**, good luck with that. Fame is fleeting and you may be good at that today but tomorrow there is someone younger, cuter and better that does the same thing only better than you. There is no job security in pharmacy anymore. Maybe in some really rural areas down south but I am not sure where else.

also, one of the points always made is the ageing of the population requires many more drugs/prescriptions in the future. i don't think there is any denying that. Retail volume will increase. but here is a quiz:

Store A does 1200 rx per week, Store B does 2800 per week. Both are open the same number of hours.How many more pharmacist hours does Store B have than Store A.

The answer is-------zero. A few more tech hours but very doubtful there will be any overlap whatsoever. so I don't see the ageing of the population increasing pharm jobs unless there new stores open. Maybe once you get over 3000 rxs per week you will see some overlap. but the central fill or walgreens program will limit the increase. There are stores in my area that do 2500-2600 per week. originally budgeted for 12 hr/wk(not day) overlap, which was cut to 4 hours which has now gone away completely.

There will always be pharms and jobs but not as rosy as colleges/profs tell you it is. Of course most of the profs never worked retail but do get taken out to dinner by the recruiters so maybe that counts for experience.

 

[type b pharmD]

Your correct in saying that not areas will have 5 applicants for a job. In my area Kmart had an opening for a 30 hour / week pharm. They definitely did not get 5 applicants--they got 16 of them. We are rural. Some areas of the country i am sure have somewhat of a shortage but I don't think you will find many areas that have less than 5 applicants. If all those Kroger pharms in columbus got laid off I would be willing to bet they are applying everywhere to get a job to support their family and pay off the school loans.

Haven't really seen many of the reitred pharms in my area(although some are unwillingly retired). Pharmacy is usually not the kind of job that you retire early from although the wages are light years ahead of what they were 10 years ago when there was a real shortage.

as far as kissing a**, good luck with that. Fame is fleeting and you may be good at that today but tomorrow there is someone younger, cuter and better that does the same thing only better than you. There is no job security in pharmacy anymore. Maybe in some really rural areas down south but I am not sure where else.

also, one of the points always made is the ageing of the population requires many more drugs/prescriptions in the future. i don't think there is any denying that. Retail volume will increase. but here is a quiz:

Store A does 1200 rx per week, Store B does 2800 per week. Both are open the same number of hours.How many more pharmacist hours does Store B have than Store A.

The answer is-------zero. A few more tech hours but very doubtful there will be any overlap whatsoever. so I don't see the ageing of the population increasing pharm jobs unless there new stores open. Maybe once you get over 3000 rxs per week you will see some overlap. but the central fill or walgreens program will limit the increase. There are stores in my area that do 2500-2600 per week. originally budgeted for 12 hr/wk(not day) overlap, which was cut to 4 hours which has now gone away completely.

There will always be pharms and jobs but not as rosy as colleges/profs tell you it is. Of course most of the profs never worked retail but do get taken out to dinner by the recruiters so maybe that counts for experience.

Just because there are 5 applicants for a job doesnt mean there are 5 people competing with you for a job. Like i said before, mathematically I had to be in the top 5% of applicants to get my current job, but in actuality, maybe only 5-6 people were actually seriously considered (i think only about 7 people were interviewed). And yeah, i agree, retail pharmacy is not going to expand as fast as some people think it will. It's like the pharmcas situation -- applying to more jobs costs only a minimal amount of additional time and effort. If each person applies to 50 jobs, are they really competing for 50 jobs? No, more likely than not their resume will get tossed out of the pool in early rounds of decision making.

But as far as being replaceable? In good jobs, the company pays for you to train for several weeks to months before starting full time on your own. Why would a company lose a month to multiple months of salary training a replacement candidate if you were already doing a great job? Doesnt make much sense economically. Instead, they could just deny you COL raises, and keep you at the "newbie" salary indefinitely. That would cost them nothing, whereas firing and rehiring could cost them plenty.

Also i'm not sure about what you say about the shortage being over in all parts of the country. Can you prove it with more than anecdotes ? Because I have plenty of anecdotes that would suggest the opposite of what you're saying. My pharmacy has out of state students rotating through every month from metro areas all over the country. Everyone I have talked to since I have been hired has either already had a contract signed last fall, or is facing the choice of two to three or more job offers. That doesnt sound like a surplus to me. I do admit it's possible my sample is biased. It could be that only motivated and enthusiastic students pick my site for their out of state rotation

PS: Two of my old intern buddies at the hospital both took jobs in a major metro area (northern chicagoland aka milwaukee suburbs) for signing bonuses of 15k and 20k respectively. Again, great for them, but retail just isnt my bag, regardless of the money. Working conditions are just ridiculous.

 

[Old]

Just because there are 5 applicants for a job doesnt mean there are 5 people competing with you for a job. Like i said before, mathematically I had to be in the top 5% of applicants to get my current job, but in actuality, maybe only 5-6 people were actually seriously considered (i think only about 7 people were interviewed). And yeah, i agree, retail pharmacy is not going to expand as fast as some people think it will. It's like the pharmcas situation. If each person applies to 50 jobs, are they really competing for 50 jobs? No, more likely than not their resume will get tossed out of the pool in early rounds of decision making.

But as far as being replaceable? In good jobs, the company pays for you to train for several weeks to months before starting full time on your own. Why would a company lose a month to multiple months of salary training a replacement candidate if you were already doing a great job? Doesnt make much sense economically. Instead, they could just deny you COL raises, and keep you at the "newbie" salary indefinitely. That would cost them nothing, whereas firing and rehiring could cost them plenty.

As far as training costs- what you are saying seems logical. Problem is how many new grads get hired to float? They are being trained and filling in for vacations etc. so you have a dual purpose or role. So when the next class comes out they have to hire some of them so they will move a floater into a store if there is an opening there or if they let someone go. as far as the job at Kmart- there were 16 applicants for THAT job. Not nationwide or statewide but soley for that job. as far as doing a "Great Job" . Its very much unlike school where if you know the correct answer you could get a 4.00 and be one of the "best". Now it will be if "they" like you. Entirely subjective. Their opinion, their list of the bottom 10%(somebody makes the list every year). Maybe you don't go to the golf outing with them. Maybe you don't get drunk at the bar. maybe you don't swear but they do. Its one persons opinion of you. Metrics / corportate numbers can be fabricated. I have seen stores with better scores that has the pharm fired than stores with rock bottom scores. Make sense to you? doesn't to me. Why do you think you were in the top 5%. what got you there? Someones perception? Will that ever change?

 

[type b pharmD]

As far as training costs- what you are saying seems logical. Problem is how many new grads get hired to float? They are being trained and filling in for vacations etc. so you have a dual purpose or role. So when the next class comes out they have to hire some of them so they will move a floater into a store if there is an opening there or if they let someone go. as far as the job at Kmart- there were 16 applicants for THAT job. Not nationwide or statewide but soley for that job. as far as doing a "Great Job" . Its very much unlike school where if you know the correct answer you could get a 4.00 and be one of the "best". Now it will be if "they" like you. Entirely subjective. Their opinion, their list of the bottom 10%(somebody makes the list every year). Maybe you don't go to the golf outing with them. Maybe you don't get drunk at the bar. maybe you don't swear but they do. Its one persons opinion of you. Metrics / corportate numbers can be fabricated. I have seen stores with better scores that has the pharm fired than stores with rock bottom scores. Make sense to you? doesn't to me. Why do you think you were in the top 5%. what got you there? Someones perception? Will that ever change?

If you dont know how to schmooze with people correctly and understand how important it is to constantly be making a great impression, you wont survive long in the world of work. You're right, it isnt much like school. However they do have some similarity in that both test you on meaningless bull****. Personally, I'm that person who goes to the golf outing, gets drunk at the bar, and works hard on giving the impression to bosses that I'm the likeable hardworking guy that is very similar to them. How do you think people get jobs and move up the corporate ladder in other professions? This is nothing new.

And again, "corporate metrics" "PCI" "CSI" etc initiatives only apply to retail.

Also thanks for ignoring my point about retraining costs.

I'd like to believe that what got me my jobs has been my great work experience, being well respected by directors and managers at past jobs, a resume filled with relevant projects, name dropping, networking (ie inside contacts), interviewing skills, and, whether you like it or not, good looks. Hopefully I will be able to keep my job by impressing everyone around me, keeping my head down, staying out of trouble, and attending the company events, corporate schmoozing, etc. I'm personally not going to be satisfied with myself when pharmacy school ends if I dont end up being the very best graduate applicant to any job I apply for. The fact is, a LOT of people DONT have that mindset. And they are the ones who are going to get competed out of a job. The person who slacks at work, complains a lot, disrespects the DM (like one person on this board who wouldnt give the DM the time of day when they visited his store) or doesnt fit into the 'up or out' corporate culture is the person who wont have a job.

With the current state of pharmacy school admissions and schools opening up, the quality of the people we will be competing with for jobs is going to make a drastic decline. Nearly 50% of my class do not have intern jobs or have never even held a tech job. Come graduation time, they will be ten of those twenty applicants competing with you or me for a job. Guess what? Wont have to worry about them!!

 

[StallionRx]

If you dont know how to schmooze with people correctly and understand how important it is to constantly be making a great impression, you wont survive long in the world of work. You're right, it isnt much like school. However they do have some similarity in that both test you on meaningless bull****. Personally, I'm that person who goes to the golf outing, gets drunk at the bar, and works hard on giving the impression to bosses that I'm the likeable hardworking guy that is very similar to them. How do you think people get jobs and move up the corporate ladder in other professions? This is nothing new.

And again, "corporate metrics" "PCI" "CSI" etc initiatives only apply to retail.

Also thanks for ignoring my point about retraining costs.

I'd like to believe that what got me my jobs has been my great work experience, letters of rec from directors/managers (aka networking/name dropping), interviewing skills, and, whether you like it or not, good looks. Hopefully I will be able to keep my job by impressing everyone around me, keeping my head down, staying out of trouble, and attending the company events, corporate schmoozing, etc.

This is a good post, seriously. A lot of people never get this. Might be sad to some, but true. It is reality and its a game you must learn how to play.

 

[rxforlife2004]

6000 pharmacists retire every year. Just gotta be a better candidate than the next 2 or three people. You must be pretty insecure about your own work skills if you're that worried.

And for your information, I am not naive, I have held down full time work since I graduated high school, paid taxes, supported myself, and have years of pharmacy experience in hospital and nuclear settings. Guess what -- to be hired at my facility for my current intern job, I had to be the best candidate out of TWENTY motivated pharmacy student applicants... I expect it will be the same when i graduate. But across the nation there is never going to be 20 applicants competing for one job. In order for that to happen, we'd have to at least double or triple the current number of pharmacy schools. So to all you pissed off people in the retail world, I feel somewhat sorry for you that you chose what you did, but really, I cant feel sorry for anyone who keeps working in a job they hate. You always have options. Either kiss some ass and move up, kiss some ass and do a lateral transfer to a rural area, polish up your skills and beg for a non retail job, save money and open your own shop, or get out of the field and move on to something else. There's nothing we can do about the number of schools, and there's nothing any of us can do to change the retail chains corporate strategies.

People always take drugs, and yes, that doesnt guarantee you a job. But people will still need pharmacists, and guess who is going to be hired? People who have their **** together. All i'm saying is, if you dont, then you better freakin get started. And if you can't cut it then move to a different field.

I would make the argument that you rxforlife2004 and mountainpharmD are the real naive ones for taking jobs in retail. Did you not expect it to end up like this? How you guys could sell out and then complain about selling out is beyond me.

I will however take your advice and never set foot in retail as long as i live. But then again, that was never my plan anyway. Retail pharmacy is a joke as far as i'm concerned, and anyone who pays a hundred grand in order to work in that environment must either have a screw loose or have a much much higher tolerance for pain than I do.

And to respond to "Old" - working in a non retail setting will avoid all of that customer compliance bull****, also, with regard to workload of a pharmacist being different than that of an intern, maybe that's how it works where you're from, but in my pharmacy intern experience, I have had to take the full workload of a technician in ADDITION to intern duties, and it is nowhere near what i would call stressful. I dont know where you all hang out , but I havent met a pharmacist yet that doesnt at least enjoy their job. Most of them I have worked with look forward to coming into work every day and love what they do. Dont take your own bad experience (which, i at least hope you walked into with your eyes open) and generalize it towards everyone else.

And to mountain, and anyone else who is a chronic whiner, just a little tip, your attitude in life goes a long way towards determining your happiness. Because regardless of my "experience" level in life (some) , retail pharmacy (none) or just working in general, there has not been a single day in a pharmacy that I havent enjoyed. Personally I wouldnt even take a job at a facility where pharmacists had attitudes like yours. I wonder how your techs feel working for someone who is so angry all the time.

I suspect you wont even be able to understand that given your bitter, burnt out attitude. But, i guess that's to be expected given that you work retail for a chain in a metro area.

I have no idea why you started bashing retail pharmacists when in future you're probably gonna end up to be one of them...lol...seriously... wait until you are able to land a job in a hospital, then we can start talking. Most hospitals still have hiring freeze and will continue to do so from now on and people who already in (like me) will NOT leave their jobs. I have all respect to retail pharmacists because to me, they can do what i can't. Btw, since i can't take and deal with public so i hid myself in a hospital since graduation til now...so yeah, your assumption of me working in retail was wrong in the first place.

Anyway, enough talking....if you have that much experiences, ya da ya da,...and everyone loves you and that you're so much smarter than any other pharmacist competing the job for you then...congrats! i feel really happy for you. At least u don't have to be one of the student worrying about how to pay back loan when done with school and no job offerring yet...

Alrite...good luck.

 

[type b pharmD]

I have no idea why you started bashing retail pharmacists when in future you're probably gonna end up to be one of them...lol...seriously... wait until you are able to land a job in a hospital, then we can start talking. Most hospitals still have hiring freeze and will continue to do so from now on and people who already in (like me) will NOT leave their jobs. I have all respect to retail pharmacists because to me, they can do what i can't. Btw, since i can't take and deal with public so i hid myself in a hospital since graduation til now...so yeah, your assumption of me working in retail was wrong in the first place.

Anyway, enough talking....if you have that much experiences, ya da ya da,...and everyone loves you and that you're so much smarter than any other pharmacist competing the job for you then...congrats! i feel really happy for you. At least u don't have to be one of the student worrying about how to pay back loan when done with school and no job offerring yet...

Alrite...good luck.

No offense man, forgot you worked at a hospital too. Although my hospital jobs have been enjoyable learning experiences, I have other post graduation plans.

I wasnt intending to come across as conceited, merely to give an example of the fact that if you put in effort at getting connections and getting your ducks in a row experience wise, retail hell does not have to be a person's ultimate post graduation fate.

Thanks, I'll take all the luck I can get!

Jobs are out there and will be out there. People will get jobs. Some people wont get them. Thats the bottom line in any profession.

 

[thedrunkenpharm]

The deans and faculty at my school have been subtly hinting at what the job market is like. For example, a couple preceptors mentioned how difficult it was for the class of 2009 to find jobs and they stressed the importance of developing and maintaining a diverse and strong CV (since that discussion, I've heard from different classes that some students are turning into gunners and becoming uber competitive). The deans mentioned that even though they are planning a sattelite campus to boost enrollment size (!!), they do not want to create a glut of pharms. The associate dean mentioned that when they graduated from Rx school decades ago, there was a surplus of pharmacists and many of their colleagues had severe difficulty finding jobs. The deans mentioned that the job market isn't particularly good in the urban areas of the state.

You might find this post interesting http://www.pharmacytimes.com/editors-note/pharmacy/Eckelblog-111809

Some of the comments on that post are particularly sobering.

 

[willrocks]

Lets be real guys. Despite the current lackluster job market, which has been hard hit by the economy like every field other than medicine, the reason more schools are opening is because the latest BLS report on the supply of pharmacists states "only under an optimistic supply scenario and a conservative demand scenario will supply be sufficient to meet demand." Thus, more pharmacists will be needed, the new schools are justified, and AACP has no reason to decline a new school opening. Despite the quality of their work, the BLS is the ultimate say on the labor market in the United States and the AACP follows their reports.

 

[StaviZFingerZ]

A handful of educators motivated by greed will destroy our profession. Sure, there will be niches for competitive pharmacists to not only survive but thrive and achieve success. When the floodgate of newly minted Pharm.Ds opens in next 3 years, you will see the job market dry up like you've never seen before. The supply of pharmacist has definitely supassed the demand today while the supply pipeline keeps growing.

I feel for those who are taking out $200K student loans.

Then again, you only need to follow the money. Who's funding all these new pharmacy schools? I don't have an answer. But I do know the beneficiaries.. those handful of educators with ownership in pharmacy school and retail chains.

We're still looking for quality hospital pharmacists.. and it's not hard to pick them up as their CV/resume stick out in a pile filled with resume from retail pharmacists wanting to get out. It's not impossible to transition out of retail. But it aint easy. I just helped my classmate get out of retail..he was a DM for a chain and has been in retail since graduation. Now he's picking up prn shift at a hospital...

 

[VCU2011]

There are a lot of people on here saying "I dont fear the surpluss...i'm a good student graduating from a good school so of course they will pick me!!"

I hate to point it out, but while our profession has striking similarities to the Law and MBA degree (as far as the market being flooded), there is one very distinct difference. All of the law schools that opened up did not hinder top lawyers and top business people from getting jobs, because they were the best at what they did and as such offered much more income potential for their company or firm.

This isn't the case with retail pharmacy. The ONLY reason walgreens or CVS is paying their pharmacists $100,000 a year is because they cant find someone who is willing to do it for $95,000. We all know that our knowledge base FAR exceeds our job as retail pharmacists, so as long as we are simply verifying prescriptions, walgreens doesn't want the top candidates from the top pharmacy schools demanding $100,000/yr. They want the crappy pharmacist from the crappy pharmacy school who is willing to take $60,000 because they know they wont get a job anywhere else! In a retail setting, the top pharmacist from UCSF will bring in no more income than the bottom student from (insert puppy mill pharmacy).

This is the main difference between the Law and MBA degree which will inevitably drive DOWN wages and lead to all of you "top candidates" to be out of jobs and unable to re-pay their loans.

 

[StaviZFingerZ]

There are a lot of people on here saying "I dont fear the surpluss...i'm a good student graduating from a good school so of course they will pick me!!"

I was a good student with 4 years of extensive inpatient experience and graduated from a good school but couldn't even get an interview with Savon or Walmart. Long's turned me down and there were no hospital jobs available. Of course this was before the retail boom and we only had 70 pharmacy schools in the country.

So I moved out of state to take an evening staff pharmacist job at a county hospital.

The best thing that happened for me as a pharmacist is that no retail pharmacy hired me. I would have been a miserable retail pharmacist in Orange County, CA today.

 

[Argentium]

There are a lot of people on here saying "I dont fear the surpluss...i'm a good student graduating from a good school so of course they will pick me!!"

I hate to point it out, but while our profession has striking similarities to the Law and MBA degree (as far as the market being flooded), there is one very distinct difference. All of the law schools that opened up did not hinder top lawyers and top business people from getting jobs, because they were the best at what they did and as such offered much more income potential for their company or firm.

This isn't the case with retail pharmacy. The ONLY reason walgreens or CVS is paying their pharmacists $100,000 a year is because they cant find someone who is willing to do it for $95,000. We all know that our knowledge base FAR exceeds our job as retail pharmacists, so as long as we are simply verifying prescriptions, walgreens doesn't want the top candidates from the top pharmacy schools demanding $100,000/yr. They want the crappy pharmacist from the crappy pharmacy school who is willing to take $60,000 because they know they wont get a job anywhere else! In a retail setting, the top pharmacist from UCSF will bring in no more income than the bottom student from (insert puppy mill pharmacy).

This is the main difference between the Law and MBA degree which will inevitably drive DOWN wages and lead to all of you "top candidates" to be out of jobs and unable to re-pay their loans.

Retail will be a string of lawsuits waiting to happen

 

[StaviZFingerZ]

Retail will be a string of lawsuits waiting to happen

? why?

 

[Silvermist]

? why?

I believe he's referring to instances where mistakes are made, like the $33M Walgreens lawsuit in another thread. I've heard people say that before: that as quality control is stressed in the name of efficiency, and as pharmacists are overworked, that mistakes are inevitable. Since we are a litigious society, megabuck lawsuits are a probable consequence. Hey, all those unemployed lawyers we keep hearing about from the glut of law schools might find a new niche!

General comment: in all seriousness, what profession is not going through a period of uncertainty? Even MDs aren't immune, with new schools popping up, residency slots staying static, and a trend towards PAs and nurses not only in primary care, but in specialist offices as well. More than one MD friend of mine has had to go back to school to get a second degree (MPH) for their job of choice. Yes pharmacy is facing some challenges, but what profession isn't facing layoffs and hiring freezes?

 

[StaviZFingerZ]

General comment: in all seriousness, what profession is not going through a period of uncertainty? Even MDs aren't immune, with new schools popping up, residency slots staying static, and a trend towards PAs and nurses not only in primary care, but in specialist offices as well. More than one MD friend of mine has had to go back to school to get a second degree (MPH) for their job of choice. Yes pharmacy is facing some challenges, but what profession isn't facing layoffs and hiring freezes?

Your premise is that due to the current recession, our profession is affected greatly. But that doesn't paint an accurate picture. There have been recessions past 15 years, of course not as extreme as what we're facing today. Despite the recession, pharmacy was hailed as "recession proof profession" where pharmacists were able to find a job anywhere in the US with a full moving package and sign on bonuses.

There are 2 reasons why we don't see that anymore.

1. Retail expansion of Wags and CVS is over.
2. There are too many new pharmacy schools.

Today, we're at an equilibrium of supply and demand of pharmacists. The equilibrium is about to tilt in a very malicious way in next few years.

Recession proof pharmacy is no more.

 

[Silvermist]

Your premise is that due to the current recession, our profession is affected greatly. But that doesn't paint an accurate picture. There have been recessions past 15 years, of course not as extreme as what we're facing today. Despite the recession, pharmacy was hailed as "recession proof profession" where pharmacists were able to find a job anywhere in the US with a full moving package and sign on bonuses.

There are 2 reasons why we don't see that anymore.

1. Retail expansion of Wags and CVS is over.
2. There are too many new pharmacy schools.

Today, we're at an equilibrium of supply and demand of pharmacists. The equilibrium is about to tilt in a very malicious way in next few years.

Recession proof pharmacy is no more.

That's my point though: nothing is recession-proof, and I don't believe it ever was. Not teachers, not nurses, not pharmacists, not anyone. I never understood why it was called "recession-proof" in the first place - to me, that indicated a lack of understanding of how every cog in the marketplace wheel comes together and is interrelated to form a dependable give-and-take economy. (E.g. - more factory layoffs, fewer factory workers getting scrips filled, less work for pharmacists, less need for pharmacists, layoffs at the pharmacy, unemployed factory worker and pharmacist sitting side by side at the bar).

I don't disagree there are a LOT of schools, and I don't disagree that retail expansion has ground to a halt (although given the crisis in pretty much all commercial real estate, I believe the reasons for that are both multiple and debatable). My point is though: this doesn't make pharmacy different from any other profession in terms of being in a crisis at this time. Nobody is immune to the recession - not even MDs - because everything is interrelated, and every industry is facing tremendous financial pressure. If anything, I still think pharmacy is better off than some other white-collar professions - we are much less likely to be offshored. I know many software and electrical engineers, radiologists, lawyers and accountants who wish they could say the same thing.

 

[StaviZFingerZ]

That's my point though: nothing is recession-proof, and I don't believe it ever was. Not teachers, not nurses, not pharmacists, not anyone. I never understood why it was called "recession-proof" in the first place - to me, that indicated a lack of understanding of how every cog in the marketplace wheel comes together and is interrelated to form a dependable give-and-take economy. (E.g. - more factory layoffs, fewer factory workers getting scrips filled, less work for pharmacists, less need for pharmacists, layoffs at the pharmacy, unemployed factory worker and pharmacist sitting side by side at the bar).

Pharmacy was recession proof. You weren't around when we went through that phase. We would have been recession proof if there were only 70 pharmacy schools today.

I don't disagree that retail expansion has ground to a halt

Wags set out to have 7,000 pharmacies throughout the country. They're there today.

(although given the crisis in pretty much all commercial real estate, I believe the reasons for that are both multiple and debatable).

No it's not debatable. Pharmacy's downfall is not because of current recession.

My point is though: this doesn't make pharmacy different from any other profession in terms of being in a crisis at this time. Nobody is immune to the recession - not even MDs - because everything is interrelated, and every industry is facing tremendous financial pressure. If anything, I still think pharmacy is better off than some other white-collar professions - we are much less likely to be offshored. I know many software and electrical engineers, radiologists, lawyers and accountants who wish they could say the same thing.

So is pharmacy no different or better than other professions?

 

[Silvermist]

Pharmacy was recession p

So is pharmacy no different or better than other professions?

No different in terms of being impacted badly by the recession and scaring people who have invested years of their life and much of their money. Different (and better) only in that when the economic crisis eventually abates, we will be better positioned than occupations which can be offshored to cheaper countries and therefore might be decimated more permanently (e.g. software engineering).

 

[willrocks]

The BLS report takes into account the rapid expansion of pharmacy schools and the toned down demand for pharmacists, yet still projects a solid job future. The market stinks right now in most areas, true. To all the naysayers, what specifically in the report do you disagree with that you believe makes it inaccurate long-term?

 

[StaviZFingerZ]

The BLS report takes into account the rapid expansion of pharmacy schools and the toned down demand for pharmacists, yet still projects a solid job future. The market stinks right now in most areas, true. To all the naysayers, what specifically in the report do you disagree with that you believe makes it inaccurate long-term?

Attach the BLS report. I'll tell you where they are inaccurate as how previous pharmacy labor projections were inaccurate as well.

 

[StaviZFingerZ]

Pharmacy was recession p


No different in terms of being impacted badly by the recession and scaring people who have invested years of their life and much of their money. Different (and better) only in that when the economic crisis eventually abates, we will be better positioned than occupations which can be offshored to cheaper countries and therefore might be decimated more permanently (e.g. software engineering).

have you heard of ROE? Remote order entry and verification? It could be done Oversees... except for Louisiana where the board requires pharmacist be present in the state when order processing is done.

 

[VCU2011]

No different in terms of being impacted badly by the recession and scaring people who have invested years of their life and much of their money. Different (and better) only in that when the economic crisis eventually abates, we will be better positioned than occupations which can be offshored to cheaper countries and therefore might be decimated more permanently (e.g. software engineering).

But we are unique in the fact that every retail pharmacist is overqualified for the job they do. As long as that is the case, corporations will seek to obtain the less overqualified candidates who are willing to do the same job for a lower salary. Your other examples are not like this. Better physicians bring in more money, better lawyers bring in more money, better businessmen bring in more money. Better retail pharmacists have no impact on the companies bottom line, so the ONLY thing retail pharmacists have to compete on is what they will accept as a salary....and someone is ALWAYS willing to go lower if the options are work or don't work...

 

[rxforlife2004]

Okay...so i did a physical count today and we totally have 120 pharmacy schools. Wow...back to 2004 when i first started pharm school, we had around 80+ to 90. So 30 more of pharm schools have been added...seriously, wtf?...

Let's do a simple math: some school has class size of 200 (USC, Nevada (both campuses)), some has around 70, 80. Let's meet at an low average, say 130 students per schools.

# students produced each year = 130 students/class x 120 schools = 15,600 students roughly 16,000 students produced each year looking for a full time job.

According to BLS, in 2008 we have 269,900 pharmacists employed, and the projected # of employment is 315,800 by 2018.

So we need 45,900 pharmacists in 10 yrs.


Okay, so every year we produced 16,000 students...and we need 45,900 pharmacists in 10 yrs period...something is f* up here...so 45,900/16,000 = 2.8 yrs we meet the demand....???So by 2011, no graduating pharmacist can get a job....

Oh well...the supply already>demand now...blame on the economy?