DO vs. MD

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EctopicFetus said:
I would say that the "prestige" thing is largely the result of two things.
1) it is harder to get into MD school than DO school and while I am sure some people do the DO thing because they wanted to but the majority go because they didnt get in to medical school. I can only speak about the people I know but if this is not a true generalization please let me know.

2) the numbers (USMLE and then the Match) bear out that MD students do better when they look for residency opportunities. I would guess many DOs are locked out of positions because MDs dont want to work with them for whatever reason.

Obviously the majority of DOs are competent and very good docs like MDs are but there is a stigma about getting the DO due to point # 1 &2 .

Well, I agree with your prior statement that DOs tend to underscore on the USMLE. No argument there.

However, I disagree that you can equate prestige of a school with admission difficulty. Its true in some cases, but just because there are a lot of people trying for a school (thus making it difficult to get accepted) does not mean it is prestigious, or better. Besides, being prestigious is only a trend. Its a fad. It changes, it becomes known, unknown.

I also adamantly disagree with point 2. (Maybe its that way in your state, but it hasn't been that way in any of the states I've visited). In the real professional world, two letters don't matter - especially because almost all MDs realize that DOs are their equals educationally, and even if they don't, the law does. It matters much more how you conduct yourself professionally, and how you show others what you have learned (MD or DO).
Also, in response to one of your earlier comments, there aren't as many DOs specializing because there aren't as many DOs, period. DOs do tend to fill a disproportionate amount of slots for primary care-if you think that is less-prestigious, then thats just your opinion.

Well, I'd just like to point out that there is always going to be some kind of pecking order no matter where you are in life. Just because you are an MD doesn't mean you will be exempt from this. FP MDs get looked down on by MD surgeons, for example. But, this won't bother anyone with a healthy attitude.
I think a lot of people do go into medicine for the prestige, but we all have different perceptions of what prestige is and how it is represented. I would rather have my patients feel comfortable with me, than in awe of me. I can't think of anything more prestigious than serving others. And I seriously doubt that if I become a practicing DO, a practicing MD is ever going to make me feel belittled-and if they try-I'm just going to laugh, because it can't affect me -I know the truth, and I know the laws that protect DOs, and I know their education is equal, and I think ignorant people are kind of funny.

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Yesterday we had Dr. Norman Gevitz (PhD) talk to us, the Class of 2008, about the profession of osteopathic medicine. What an awesome speech that was. It was good because Dr. Gevitz really knows the history of osteopathic medicine, and it was good because he only spoke for 20 minutes, and the rest of the hour was devoted to questions and answers.

Wow! You stayed awake through that? LOL Nah...he did give a good little speech, though I thought it was a little redundant after being required to read his book.

That being said, I'm glad ectopic pointed out that he/she thinks we're 'equal' cause those previous posts were full of nice venom.

Harder to get into MD school? Whatever. It's hard to get into medical school. PERIOD. Average statistics can be manipulated any way you want to. Just take a look at the ones used to "justify" such dandies as "Boy, you know he's a 'diversity candidate' cause his 'kind' never score well on the MCAT." We could compare MCAT scores, GPA's, age, height, weight, USMLE, or COMLEX scores and come up with a thousand ways of showing the differences between DO's and MD's.

In the end, the only thing that matters is the patient. A high MCAT score does not make a person a good doctor. And, I'm gonna go waaaaay out on a limb here....a Harvard education does not make a good doctor.

Dr. Gevitz's answer to the differences in MD and DO students was that we "fish from different streams." Gevitz was at Illinois for many years and apparently, they don't interview all of their candidates that are later accepted. (Or at least, they didn't at the time). So you end up with super-geniuses who can't relate to other people. (We all know the type). DO schools are looking for something different.

My husband always says "salesmen are born." You can't teach a person to sell if they don't have the inter-personal skills necessary to sell a product. I feel the same way about teaching--learning to write a lesson plan doesn't make you a teacher. Learning gross anatomy and biochemistry doesn't make you a doctor. Learning how to treat your patient does....and that's about something more than just knowing the science behind the diagnosis and treatment.

Willow~~going back into my hole now
 
listen, the spelling flame had no purpose other than to serve as an arrogant personal attack. you understood the meaning with no effort needed to figure it out. keep the personal attacks to yourself and i'll do the same. simple.

how do M.D.s do on the D.O. exams? they'd do worse than M.D.s, if not for any reason other than the OMM section. D.O.s test for two days for step I and II, whereas M.D.s test for one day each.

again, it's largely irrelevant. the purpose of my question was to find out if there was any specific knowledge or training M.D.s receive that D.O.s do not. the answer, apparently, is no. we are in agreement that both M.D.s and D.O.s can be great, can suck, or can fall in the middle.
 
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I found the following very helpful, educational, and enlightening in regards to DOs (long, but worth the read if you've never heard about this):

The Paradox Of Osteopathy

In the spring of 1864, Andrew Taylor Still, a rural Kansas practitioner, watched helplessly as the best medications then available failed to save his three children from spinal meningitis. Bitterly disappointed, Still set out to devise an alternative healing practice. He eventually based his new system on the idea that manipulation of the spine could improve blood flow and thus improve health by allowing the body to heal itself. His philosophy included a healthy dose of moralism; patients were forbidden to consume any liquor and, as part of the break from existing practices, were also forbidden to take any medicine. Still founded a school to teach his new system of osteopathy in Kirksville, Missouri, in 1892.

Osteopathy was not the only system of spinal manipulation to be created in the late 19th century. Chiropractic, established in 1895 by Daniel David Palmer, aimed to relieve obstruction in the nerves rather than in the blood vessels. Osteopathy and chiropractic initially shared several characteristics. Both were founded when Americans freely chose from many systems of healing. Both were homegrown American systems created at about the same time by messianic Midwesterners. Both systems were seen by many Midwesterners as preferable to the reductionist European model of laboratory-based medicine, which was established most firmly on the eastern seaboard and was fast becoming the standard.

Over the course of the 20th century, medicine as practiced by M.D.'s (sometimes called allopathy) has come to dominate U.S. health care. Chiropractic and osteopathy, initially parts of a pluralistic medical system, have taken very different paths. Chiropractors have generally remained focused on spinal manipulation for a limited set of conditions, particularly those that are often resistant to allopathic therapy, such as back pain. Osteopaths, on the other hand, have worked hard to employ the entire therapeutic armamentarium of the modern physician, and in so doing they have moved closer to allopathy. )

The move toward assimilation became explicit in California in the early 1960s, when the California Medical Association and the California Osteopathic Association merged in what has been called the osteopathic profession's darkest hour. By attending a short seminar and paying $65, a doctor of osteopathy (D.O.) could obtain an M.D. degree; 86 percent of the D.O.'s in the state (out of a total of about 2000) chose to do so. The College of Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons became the University of California College of Medicine, Irvine. Many osteopaths feared that the California merger was the wave of the future and that the profession would not survive. But it did, and in so doing it may have become even stronger. D.O.'s are now licensed in all 50 states to prescribe drugs, deliver babies, and perform surgery -- in short, to do anything that M.D.'s can do. Despite national recognition, osteopathy is still a regional phenomenon in ways that mirror its historical origin. The ratio of D.O.'s to the population varies by a factor of almost 3, from a low of 7.7 per 100,000 population in the West to a high of 20.4 per 100,000 in the Midwest; the number is 8.5 per 100,000 in the South and 18.3 per 100,000 in the Northeast. M.D.'s are far more evenly distributed throughout the country.

Osteopathy was originally created as a radical alternative to what was seen as a failing medical system. Its success at moving into the mainstream may have come at a cost -- the loss of identity. Most people -- including physicians -- know very little about the field (most people know more about chiropractic). Many people -- even osteopaths -- question what osteopathy has to offer that is distinctive.

Those who claim that osteopathy remains a unique system usually base their argument on two tenets. One is the holistic or patient-centered approach, with a focus on preventive care that they say characterizes osteopathy. That claim to uniqueness is hard to defend in the light of the increasing interest paid to this approach within general internal medicine and other areas of allopathic medicine. The other, potentially more robust, claim to uniqueness is the use of osteopathic manipulation as part of the overall therapeutic approach. In osteopathic manipulation, the bones, muscles, and tendons are manipulated to promote blood flow through tissues and thus enhance the body's own healing powers. The technique, based on the idea of a myofascial continuity that links every part of the body with every other part, involves the "skillful and dexterous use of the hands" to treat what was once called the osteopathic lesion but is now referred to as somatic dysfunction. Osteopathic manipulation is not well known (or practiced) by allopathic physicians, but for decades it has stood as the core therapeutic method of osteopathic medicine.

Joel D. Howell, M.D., Ph.D. University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48109-0604

The rest of Howell's essay can be found at: http://www.mercola.com/1999/archive/paradox_of_osteopathy.htm

It seems that many DOs do not really believe or practice osteopathy, but I am biased as many of the DOs I work with are surgeons. Although, I knew a bunch of DO internists, and they didn't really buy into it either - they just wanted to practice medicine. They seemed good at it.

Also, it seems if manipulation really significantly helped people, that could be shown in a randomized clinical trial. I have not actually researched for any trials, though. Anybody know some data?
 
my sister was much the skeptic when she began her osteopathic medical education, but has since found that at least many of the techniques really do work. she occasionally surprises her attendings on her rotations when she reaches conclusions about patients that M.D.s do not reach until later in the patient's care, or that the M.D.s already knew about but only because they had certain information that she did not. most D.O.s that i know do not actively practice any OMM on patients, but apparently some of the techniques have definite value. i would be stepping across the line that marks the edge of my knowledge if i tried to speak to that, but i can say that there are apparently osteopathic techniques that work really well for patients in hospitals that normally develop fluid in their lungs if only treated with allopathic measures. i have personally felt the results of OMM performed on me to alleviate constipation (a few times!), and there is even a technique that can induce labor.

when it comes to OMM, i guess i wonder why the allopathic world doesn't take a closer look at its efficacy, since at least some of the stuff might be valuable in terms of cost control and risk management in that some OMM techniques could take the place of certain medications in certain circumstances.
 
I am curious is there any data out there supporting OMM? If so could someone provide a link to the actual article.
 
most D.O.s that i know do not actively practice any OMM on patients, but apparently some of the techniques have definite value.

Related to my last post I wonder if this means that the DOs dont believe it works? I am interested in alternative medicine so I wonder if there is proof? Or is the reason it isnt used more often due to lack of reimbursement?
 
EctopicFetus said:
Related to my last post I wonder if this means that the DOs dont believe it works? I am interested in alternative medicine so I wonder if there is proof? Or is the reason it isnt used more often due to lack of reimbursement?

The real reasons are that there are not enough residencies that incorporate enough OMT, so doctors don't feel comfortable using it out in practice. There are other reasons, but the great majority of DOs do feel that it is an efficacious treatment for many medical problems.

Read the book by Norman Gevitz, if you are really curious.
 
YPO, I love the smurfs... anyway do you have any scientific articles on the benefits of OMT?
 
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Yes, check out the site that InductionAgent listed and search under Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine-and be sure to display the abstracts. You won't be able to view the full article unless you order it ($10.00)

But its proof that there have been studies on OMT.

One of the best ways to learn about OMT is to shadow a doctor who really knows how to use OMT. Thats my advice.
 
Not the "be all conclusive" proof that people are looking, but its a start. Obviously further research is needed.

N Engl J Med. 1999 Nov 4;341(19):1426-31.

A comparison of osteopathic spinal manipulation with standard care for patients with low back pain.

Andersson GB, Lucente T, Davis AM, Kappler RE, Lipton JA, Leurgans S.

Department of Orthopedic Surgery, Rush-Presbyterian-St. Luke's Medical Center, Chicago, IL 60612, USA. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: The effect of osteopathic manual therapy (i.e., spinal manipulation) in patients with chronic and subchronic back pain is largely unknown, and its use in such patients is controversial. Nevertheless, manual therapy is a frequently used method of treatment in this group of patients. METHODS: We performed a randomized, controlled trial that involved patients who had had back pain for at least three weeks but less than six months. We screened 1193 patients; 178 were found to be eligible and were randomly assigned to treatment groups; 23 of these patients subsequently dropped out of the study. The patients were treated either with one or more standard medical therapies (72 patients) or with osteopathic manual therapy (83 patients). We used a variety of outcome measures, including scores on the Roland-Morris and Oswestry questionnaires, a visual-analogue pain scale, and measurements of range of motion and straight-leg raising, to assess the results of treatment over a 12-week period. RESULTS: Patients in both groups improved during the 12 weeks. There was no statistically significant difference between the two groups in any of the primary outcome measures. The osteopathic-treatment group required significantly less medication (analgesics, antiinflammatory agents, and muscle relaxants) (P< 0.001) and used less physical therapy (0.2 percent vs. 2.6 percent, P<0.05). More than 90 percent of the patients in both groups were satisfied with their care. CONCLUSIONS: Osteopathic manual care and standard medical care had similar clinical results in patients with subacute low back pain. However, the use of medication was greater with standard care.
 
group_theory said:
Not the "be all conclusive" proof that people are looking, but its a start. Obviously further research is needed.

N Engl J Med. 1999 Nov 4;341(19):1426-31.

A comparison of osteopathic spinal manipulation with standard care for patients with low back pain.

Andersson GB, Lucente T, Davis AM, Kappler RE, Lipton JA, Leurgans S.

Department of Orthopedic Surgery, Rush-Presbyterian-St. Luke's Medical Center, Chicago, IL 60612, USA. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: The effect of osteopathic manual therapy (i.e., spinal manipulation) in patients with chronic and subchronic back pain is largely unknown, and its use in such patients is controversial. Nevertheless, manual therapy is a frequently used method of treatment in this group of patients. METHODS: We performed a randomized, controlled trial that involved patients who had had back pain for at least three weeks but less than six months. We screened 1193 patients; 178 were found to be eligible and were randomly assigned to treatment groups; 23 of these patients subsequently dropped out of the study. The patients were treated either with one or more standard medical therapies (72 patients) or with osteopathic manual therapy (83 patients). We used a variety of outcome measures, including scores on the Roland-Morris and Oswestry questionnaires, a visual-analogue pain scale, and measurements of range of motion and straight-leg raising, to assess the results of treatment over a 12-week period. RESULTS: Patients in both groups improved during the 12 weeks. There was no statistically significant difference between the two groups in any of the primary outcome measures. The osteopathic-treatment group required significantly less medication (analgesics, antiinflammatory agents, and muscle relaxants) (P< 0.001) and used less physical therapy (0.2 percent vs. 2.6 percent, P<0.05). More than 90 percent of the patients in both groups were satisfied with their care. CONCLUSIONS: Osteopathic manual care and standard medical care had similar clinical results in patients with subacute low back pain. However, the use of medication was greater with standard care.

chronic back pain... anyone do a search on that with acupuncture because i know that acupuncture is supposed to work well with chronic pain.
 
EctopicFetus said:
I would say that the "prestige" thing is largely the result of two things.
1) it is harder to get into MD school than DO school and while I am sure some people do the DO thing because they wanted to but the majority go because they didnt get in to medical school. I can only speak about the people I know but if this is not a true generalization please let me know.

2) the numbers (USMLE and then the Match) bear out that MD students do better when they look for residency opportunities. I would guess many DOs are locked out of positions because MDs dont want to work with them for whatever reason.

Obviously the majority of DOs are competent and very good docs like MDs are but there is a stigma about getting the DO due to point # 1 &2 .

If you are talking about prestige as defined by M.D.'s then I agree with all of your points. If you are discussing prestige as defined by the general public, I disagree with you. I agree that is more difficult to get accepted to an M.D. school in general than a D.O. school. However, I don't think prestige has to do with the admissions process like you suggest. The only people who really know that it is harder to get into an M.D. school than a D.O. school are medical students and physicians. The general public is unaware of the admissions statistics and the criteria that is involved with that. If the general public consisted mostly of physicians then your argument would make sense but since most people couldn't tell you what the MCAT stood for let alone what a respectable MCAT score is, I doubt John Smith next door thinks less of a DO because it is harder to get into an M.D. school.

Rather, I think the disparity in prestige has more to do with simple population statistics. There are simply far less D.O.'s in practice today than M.D.'s. And any time something is new or in the minority, it is immediately frowned upon due to ignorance or a lack of experience with it. I didn't know what a D.O. was growing up so I immediately looked down upon it because M.D. was the only thing I was familar with. There are nearly 20 times the amount of M.D. in practice today compared to the number of D.O.'s. There are approximately 54,000 D.O.'s in practice today compared to nearly 900,000 M.D.'s so it shouldn't be suprising why the public would see the D.O. as being something foreign and hence looked down upon.

In conclusion, if there were equal numbers of D.O.'s and M.D.'s practicing, I doubt there would be any disparity in prestige in the eyes of the general public even if the admission stats were more competitive for M.D.'s. I base my conclusion on the fact that M.D.'s are treated nearly the same among their own population despite the fact that many medical schools are far more difficult to get into than others. Joe Bob from some state medical in a small state in the midwest isn't perceived with any less prestige by the public than someone who attended an ivy league medical school. Yes, other physicians will note the difference because they are familar with the admissions process but the general public has no clue. If D.O. schools suddenly boasted more competitive entrance statistics than M.D. schools, they would still be viewed with less prestige because there are simply far less D.O. schools and physicians in existance.

Regarding the USMLE stats, I think it is unfair to compare the average USMLE stats considering that DO's take the COMLEX which is a more clinical oriented test than the USMLE. I would like to see how M.D.'s would do on the COMLEX if they spent all year preparing for the USMLE and then spent a matter of days preparing for the COMLEX. That may sound ridiculous but that's exactly the situation that most D.O.'s experience. Most D.O.'s don't spend an adequate amount of time preparing for the USMLE since they devote most of their time to the COMLEX. By the time they are done taking the COMLEX, they are so burned out that they spend very little time preparing for the USMLE which many will take a few days after they have taken the COMLEX. If M.D.'s were to suddenly take the COMLEX just days after taking Step 1, many would fail that as well. A more fair comparison would be to compare the COMLEX pass rates vs. the USMLE pass rates.
 
EctopicFetus said:
I want to be clear in saying that it is my personal belief that we are all equal and stoic makes the most important point of all. The only thing missing is that we also all have the priviledge to serve humanity. For myself and I would guess most people on here thats the main reason why we went into the health professions.

'priviledge' -spell check something if you want to make a point ;)
 
You are only like a week late... :cool:

also you obviously missed my whole point.... the use of privilege in my post wasnt bolded or underlined..anyhow.. thats old old news.. :laugh:
 
Regarding the USMLE stats, I think it is unfair to compare the average USMLE stats considering that DO's take the COMLEX which is a more clinical oriented test than the USMLE. I would like to see how M.D.'s would do on the COMLEX if they spent all year preparing for the USMLE and then spent a matter of days preparing for the COMLEX. That may sound ridiculous but that's exactly the situation that most D.O.'s experience. Most D.O.'s don't spend an adequate amount of time preparing for the USMLE since they devote most of their time to the COMLEX. By the time they are done taking the COMLEX, they are so burned out that they spend very little time preparing for the USMLE which many will take a few days after they have taken the COMLEX. If M.D.'s were to suddenly take the COMLEX just days after taking Step 1, many would fail that as well. A more fair comparison would be to compare the COMLEX pass rates vs. the USMLE pass rates.

Please see the previous posts in this thread regarding the self selection that takes place with DOs taking the USMLE..
 
Prediction of USMLE Scores from COMLEX.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.kcom.edu/academia/ResSch...tations2003.htm

See entry for Slocum PC, Johnson J. I have this paper.

Results: (from their survey group) The mean score on Step I of COMLEX was 549(SD 73), Step I of USMLE was 201(SD 22). The Pearson correlation coefficient of the scores from the Step I exams was 0.83 (p<0.0001). The Step I USMLE score is predicted by the corresponding COMLEX score using the equation yI=67.97+0.24*xI (R2(Prediction)=0.68).

Conclusion: There is a correlation between the scores of COMLEX and the corresponding USMLE exam. USMLE scores can be predicted from COMLEX-USA scores moderately well, indicated by R2(Prediction) values.

The message is quite clear. A passing USMLE score of 182 corresponds to a COMLEX score of 479, which is about the 38th percentile. This means 38% of DO students have not "passed" the USMLE. The USMLE is a minimum competency exam.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=148683

Please NOTE!! This thread is a little venomous and I only want to point out this study not start a debate on the ability of MDs or DOs to practice... as I have stated earlier.. I think most MDs and DOs are capable.. I view DOs as my equals....
 
okay, but find a study that reversed the exams...see how well MDs have done on the COMLEX compared to their USMLE...

the point is that they don't take the COMLEX. and so the USMLE is considered the "baseline" or the "minimum competency" exam. I'm not ripping on MDs here, it's just an unfair comparison to make when the reverse comparison is not made simultaneously.
 
I agree that you cant really compare that being said if DOs learn everything MDs learn PLUS OMM then they should do just as well on the USMLE. The point is that there is some self selection in DOs who take the USMLE and the stats point out that they dont do as well as MD students. I dont know how similar or different the tests are but..... dont you learn the same things we do?
 
We do learn the same things, but the test we prepare for is different than the USMLE. It's all about preparing for the tests, and you end up preparing differently for tests that cover the same info if that info is tested in a different manner.
 
i definitely see your point. i need to clarify, though, i'm not a DO or MD student at the moment :)

the self-selection thing can go both ways, though...they could be the demographic of students who wanted MD, couldn't get in, so went to DO school as a way "around" the difficulties they faced getting into an allopathic program. if that's the case, these self-selected folks are also the discards of the MD programs across the nation, so they should be expected to do worse.

at the same time, i would be willing to bet that they DON"T learn all the same stuff at that point. at the same time, i don't think any rotating student or resident or physician would even think to argue that step one boards have much bearing on the knowledge you need to do the work of a physician...isn't that stuff covered more in step 2? have the USMLE step 2 stats been compared to COMLEX step 2?
 
delchrys said:
at the same time, i don't think any rotating student or resident or physician would even think to argue that step one boards have much bearing on the knowledge you need to do the work of a physician...isn't that stuff covered more in step 2? have the USMLE step 2 stats been compared to COMLEX step 2?

I don't know if USMLE scores for step 2 have been directly compared to COMLEX scores for step 2, but check out the following link. As the steps progress, the percentage of DO students that pass the USMLE creeps up to that of the MD students.

http://www.usmle.org/scores/2003perf.htm

For 2003:
Step 1
MD= 93% pass
DO= 73% pass
Step 2
MD= 94% pass
DO= 88% pass
Step 3
MD= 93% pass
DO= 90% pass
 
not only creeps up, but actually a higher % of DOs passed the USMLE step 3 in 2002 than MDs...

from this data you presented, i think it's fair to conclude that there is something that MDs learn in their first couple of years that DOs do not learn. I can't think of another explanation, unless the way in which DO schools educate is not as good as the way MD schools educate.

thanks for the info!

:)
 
how many of the step 1 folks are taking step 3?

it may just be the elite few who aced the step 1/2 are continuing forth with step 3.
 
DrMom said:
We do learn the same things, but the test we prepare for is different than the USMLE. It's all about preparing for the tests, and you end up preparing differently for tests that cover the same info if that info is tested in a different manner.

That is kind of a weak arguement........
If the tests only test for test specific items as you propose then the test as a global assessment scale is utterly useless. Then why even sit the USMLE if they are only interested in 'testing' on things they want-it is a waste of time and money to sit for an assessment tool that has no bearing on your overall knowledge of medicine.
The test in my opinion allows anyone who has had a medical education or a comparable education to perform well-provided they know their stuff.
If DO's are comparable to MD's then they should do alright on the USMLE.
According to stats for the most part they appear to do so.
The slight disparity may be in the selection/representation of DO students as compared to MD students-overall allopathic schools are harder to get into and therefore there is a bias favoring MD students in either work ethic or intelligence.
 
JattMed said:
That is kind of a weak arguement........
If the tests only test for test specific items as you propose then the test as a global assessment scale is utterly useless. Then why even sit the USMLE if they are only interested in 'testing' on things they want-it is a waste of time and money to sit for an assessment tool that has no bearing on your overall knowledge of medicine.
The test in my opinion allows anyone who has had a medical education or a comparable education to perform well-provided they know their stuff.
If DO's are comparable to MD's then they should do alright on the USMLE.
According to stats for the most part they appear to do so.
The slight disparity may be in the selection/representation of DO students as compared to MD students-overall allopathic schools are harder to get into and therefore there is a bias favoring MD students in either work ethic or intelligence.

It disappoints me that you people would rather believe that underperformance on a test that we dont even get prepared for implies confirmation of your belief that osteopathic schools select poorer students (or the other way around). If you guys really knew how taxing the COMLEX is and how easy it would be to study for just the USMLE, rather than both tests. For instance, I had three pure microbiology questions on USMLE, but no fewer than 75 on COMLEX. So, I studied microbiology for over 80 hours total. How many allopathic students can say that? What about anatomy? Maybe five questions on USMLE, but easilly 125+ on COMLEX, so would you say that takes a little more effort? In the end, there is just less time, and therefore, a disadvantage. People who sit only for the USMLE dont have to cram as much minute information in their head and have a much more 'studiable' test, in my opinion. It has little to do with the inherent difficulty of the test, but it has to do with the fact that each test is its own entity, and preparing for two different tests can be doubly as hard.
 
JattMed said:
That is kind of a weak arguement........
If the tests only test for test specific items as you propose then the test as a global assessment scale is utterly useless. Then why even sit the USMLE if they are only interested in 'testing' on things they want-it is a waste of time and money to sit for an assessment tool that has no bearing on your overall knowledge of medicine.
The test in my opinion allows anyone who has had a medical education or a comparable education to perform well-provided they know their stuff.
If DO's are comparable to MD's then they should do alright on the USMLE.
According to stats for the most part they appear to do so.
The slight disparity may be in the selection/representation of DO students as compared to MD students-overall allopathic schools are harder to get into and therefore there is a bias favoring MD students in either work ethic or intelligence.

Honestly, you have no clue. Take the COMLEX and see how you do. It is a very different test. Many DO's do succeed on the USMLE but they often go out of their way to prepare for two exams. These successfull students don't just walk into the USMLE after they took the COMLEX. They are very different than most DO's and they prepare early knowing they will take both exams. Your average DO student is not sure whether he or she wants to take the USMLE because many allopathic programs accept the COMLEX. What ends up happening is that your average DO student will sign up for the USMLE at the last minute because they were told it was a good idea. However, they fail to adequately prepare for the exam because of the time they devoted to COMLEX.
 
Idiopathic said:
It disappoints me that you people would rather believe that underperformance on a test that we dont even get prepared for implies confirmation of your belief that osteopathic schools select poorer students (or the other way around). If you guys really knew how taxing the COMLEX is and how easy it would be to study for just the USMLE, rather than both tests. For instance, I had three pure microbiology questions on USMLE, but no fewer than 75 on COMLEX. So, I studied microbiology for over 80 hours total. How many allopathic students can say that? What about anatomy? Maybe five questions on USMLE, but easilly 125+ on COMLEX, so would you say that takes a little more effort? In the end, there is just less time, and therefore, a disadvantage. People who sit only for the USMLE dont have to cram as much minute information in their head and have a much more 'studiable' test, in my opinion. It has little to do with the inherent difficulty of the test, but it has to do with the fact that each test is its own entity, and preparing for two different tests can be doubly as hard.


Idiopathic

This is one of those threads in which I don't think you should be humble about your scores. I read in an older post how you crushed a 258 on Step 1 so you of all people know what he is talking about.
 
A while back, I thought SDN had decided to ban any MD vs. DO debates. This thread is a joke. You better start worrying about the hours you are going to put in taking care of people and not what letters come after your name. Believe me that is much more important!!! Think about it this simply:

If you dropped the M on MD and added an O , MD's would be a DO too and Vice versa we would be MD's!!! Then ask yourself, Does that reallly matter? If it does matter to you, I'm sorry but life sucks and then you die. What I am trying to get at is, MD, DO, DAD, MOM, POP, all are freakin letters. If you want to be a Doctor, then take care of your patient's and know you medicine. All this other crap is just that CRAP!!! And you can put that behind my name if you wish--> MD vs. DO is CRAP!!!
 
This thread is straddling the line on the MD vs DO bashing policy.

If this can go on as a reasonable discussion it can stay open, but if the tone continues to be towards the bashing end, then it'll be closed.
 
No matter how many of these threads there are, I still read them. But I do have a question. What do you think about our DO psych residents here? Thanks!
 
"The slight disparity may be in the selection/representation of DO students as compared to MD students-overall allopathic schools are harder to get into and therefore there is a bias favoring MD students in either work ethic or intelligence. "

ONCE AGAIN THE COMLEX 1 IS A MORE CLINICALLY BASED EXAM( MORE LIKE USMLE 2) AND THE USMLE 1 IS ALL ABOUT BASIC SCIENCES SO DO'S ARE STUDYING DISEASE PROCESSES IN ADDITION TO BASIC SCIENCES AND MD'S ARE STUDYING BASIC SCIENCES EXCLUSIVELY IN PREPARATION FOR THEIR EXAMS. I'M GUESSING FEWER MD'S WOULD PASS COMLEX 1( MAYBE AS MANY AS THE DO'S WHO PASS USMLE 1.). THE KNOWLEDGE LEARNED IS THE SAME. THE TESTING PROCESS IS DIFFERENT SO FOLKS FOCUS ON DIFFERENT AREAS.IT'S SIMILAR TO TAKING THE SAME CLASS FROM 2 DIFFERENT PROFESSORS. YOU HAVE TO STUDY WHAT YOU KNOW WILL BE EMPHASIZED ON THE TEST.
 
Thought I'd put my $0.02 in on the USMLE/ Comlex comparison:

I studied very hard for both exams and was surprised that, at least to me, Comlex was more difficult. USMLE may have been easier because the test as a whole is written much more clearly than Comlex.


Carpe
 
I felt comlex 2 was an extremely poorly written exam. On multiple occations there was more then one correct answer and the trying-to-get-in-the-mind-of-the-writter questions. Many questions leave you wondering what is even being asked. I studied bigtime for this test and now feel that I was more prepared for the usmle. A friend just took usmle 2 and said the exam was much more clearly written and therefore much easier. Other comparisons include extra info to sudy (omt) and the fact the exam is 16, yes 16, hours long over two days!
 
my 2 cents: I agree with above posts that I think MD's would have a tough time with the comlex-just as I would probably have had a little harder time with the usmle. example: we learn a v. large amount of OMT and funtional anatomy which we are tested on heavily in COMLEX. On the other hand USMLE tests the basic sciences more rigourously and includes biostats (I learned next to no biostats at my DO school). The usmle is probably better written. I think, in general, MD students spend a bit more time on the basic sciences and research concepts whereas we spend a lot of time with ortho/physical exam/musculoskeletal/OMT dx/tx. DO schools tend to train for Fp/primary care/touchingfeely, MD schools tend to produce more IM/surgeons/specialists/eggheads :laugh: :). There are many exceptions. :luck:
 
Just curious but.. Andrew Still founded DO schools to be different to promote natural healing ability through manipulation ie. "osteopathic medicine". Did graduates of the first DO school do surgery and prescribe all medications.. or was this that DO graduates have since acquired through political ?scope of practice? fights with the AMA? I still don't understand.. esp. when today since most DO's are doing MD residencies proportionally.. Why we even have DO schools if not only insurance companies but DO's too are now claiming that they are the same as MD's. Instead of claiming to be the Same as MD's I would think you would only be fighting yourself out of existence. DO schools were founded to be different than MD's. I think DO graduates should do more OMT related DO residencies. Otherwise what's the point in even having DO schools? This only adds to the DO stigma of being the student who couldn't get accepted to an MD school. If you choose do a DO degree.. then do a DO residency. Be proud of your choice of career. Btw.. what is the percentage of MD grads who choose to do a DO residency? And by DO residency I don?t mean DO general surgery cause they couldn?t get into an allopathic surgery residency. How many MD grads choose to do a DO residency because of the DO OMT incorporated philosophy?
 
Dude, this is the kind of dribble that only *****s, pre-meds and insecure med students hash out. Believe me folks, there are far more important battles in medicine to be fought. Why waste you energy butting heads with other physicians?? MD or DO, we're on the same team here. You should be much more concerned about the advancing scope of practice of CRNP's, CRNA's, OD's, PA's, and psychologists. You should be much more concerned about decreasing medical reimbursements in the face of increasing practice overhead. You should be much more concerned about learning as much as you can about medicine, and all of the issuses surrounding the practice of medicine.

It's pathetic to pick on DO's when there are much more important issues at stake that threathen both MD's and DO's practice. DO's aren't stealing MD's patients, training opportunities, or income. That can't be said about the other issuses I've mentioned here.
 
Seaglass said:
Unless DO's are spending significantly more time in class than their MD counterparts, then the MD's must be learning something that the DO's aren't (since part of DO's time is taken up learning OMM).


I've always wondered about that....OMM is cool stuff, but does it take away from learning more pathology, etc?
 
GeddyLee said:
Dude, this is the kind of dribble that only *****s, pre-meds and insecure med students hash out. Believe me folks, there are far more important battles in medicine to be fought. Why waste you energy butting heads with other physicians?? MD or DO, we're on the same team here. You should be much more concerned about the advancing scope of practice of CRNP's, CRNA's, OD's, PA's, and psychologists. You should be much more concerned about decreasing medical reimbursements in the face of increasing practice overhead. You should be much more concerned about learning as much as you can about medicine, and all of the issuses surrounding the practice of medicine.

It's pathetic to pick on DO's when there are much more important issues at stake that threathen both MD's and DO's practice. DO's aren't stealing MD's patients, training opportunities, or income. That can't be said about the other issuses I've mentioned here.
Good Point.. I know about CRNP, CRNA, and PA, but what procedures are OD's now trying to claim rights to perform?
 
dpw68 said:
I've always wondered about that....OMM is cool stuff, but does it take away from learning more pathology, etc?

yes actually, it was my understanding that on average, DO students do infact spend more time in class....
 
OzDDS said:
Good Point.. I know about CRNP, CRNA, and PA, but what procedures are OD's now trying to claim rights to perform?

take a look at the Ophthalmology forum. In Oklahoma, they just passed a bill through legislature that allows them to perform sugical procedures with scalpels and self-regulate what procedures they can do.
 
OzDDS said:
Just curious but.. Andrew Still founded DO schools to be different to promote natural healing ability through manipulation ie. "osteopathic medicine". Did graduates of the first DO school do surgery and prescribe all medications.. or was this that DO graduates have since acquired through political ?scope of practice? fights with the AMA? I still don't understand.. esp. when today since most DO's are doing MD residencies proportionally.. Why we even have DO schools if not only insurance companies but DO's too are now claiming that they are the same as MD's. Instead of claiming to be the Same as MD's I would think you would only be fighting yourself out of existence. DO schools were founded to be different than MD's. I think DO graduates should do more OMT related DO residencies. Otherwise what's the point in even having DO schools? This only adds to the DO stigma of being the student who couldn't get accepted to an MD school. If you choose do a DO degree.. then do a DO residency. Be proud of your choice of career. Btw.. what is the percentage of MD grads who choose to do a DO residency? And by DO residency I don?t mean DO general surgery cause they couldn?t get into an allopathic surgery residency. How many MD grads choose to do a DO residency because of the DO OMT incorporated philosophy?

1. There are not enough DO residency spots to fill all DO graduates. Thus, a large portion MUST go MD.
2. MDs cannot do DO residencies.
+pity+
3. Do you think that most foriegn grads who are called MDs graduated from schools that match the quality of american schools (MD and DO)?
 
Doc_Thks_JC said:
A while back, I thought SDN had decided to ban any MD vs. DO debates. This thread is a joke. You better start worrying about the hours you are going to put in taking care of people and not what letters come after your name. Believe me that is much more important!!! Think about it this simply:

If you dropped the M on MD and added an O , MD's would be a DO too and Vice versa we would be MD's!!! Then ask yourself, Does that reallly matter? If it does matter to you, I'm sorry but life sucks and then you die. What I am trying to get at is, MD, DO, DAD, MOM, POP, all are freakin letters. If you want to be a Doctor, then take care of your patient's and know you medicine. All this other crap is just that CRAP!!! And you can put that behind my name if you wish--> MD vs. DO is CRAP!!!

LOL! i started this thread for two reasons: 1, to get a feel for the actual differences between the two in practice. the answer: DOs learn OMM and some actually use it in practice, though not most, while MDs learn biostatistics and some use it in research, though not a huge ton doing research past residency. 2, to get a feel for the prevailing attitudes of premeds (future doctors) towards each other. mostly i've found that pre-DOs are respectful and consider both degrees valid, while some MDs are the same and some are less positive than that. on the whole, though, i don't see much "warring" going on here, more just discussion with a few folks who have small penises trying to compensate for that by being jerks.

;)
 
Anyone think there will ever be a DO on the AMA board of trustees?
 
4th year said:
3. Do you think that most foriegn grads who are called MDs graduated from schools that match the quality of american schools (MD and DO)?

Don't really know what you mean by this statement, but those who pass and do well on the USMLE steps by all means graduated from schools that are on par with the american schools. In terms of medical education, the US doesn't necessarily have the absolute best system.

To the OP: I'd agree with that assessment :)
 
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