DO vs. MD

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delchrys

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This is not intended to start a pissing contest. I am curious what MDs learn that DOs do not. I already know that DOs learn OMM, but I have yet to find a person who can explain what MDs learn that DOs don't. Absent a solid answer (not just in this forum, but in general), I guess I don't understand what point there is to getting an MD over a DO.

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MDs go through longer residency training so in theory they have more experience before being left on their own. Having said that, I know NP's who are better in every respect than some fellows.
 
MDs DO NOT go though longer residency training. MDs and DOs all do 3-7 year residencies depending on the field. A DO program in general surg is 5 years just as an MD gen surg program. Come on, this is already turning into a DO v. MD thread. MDs and DOs get the same training. DOs also learn OMM. PERIOD. There are no other diffs.
 
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Fair enough, I'm ignorant and I shall now bow out. :)
 
I too applaud the honesty and owning up....KooDoos....
 
Actually, many DO programs require longer post-grad training (not bashing on Mumpu, here) which can be a turn off. An intern year followed by a three year residency (ER, IM, etc.) is not out of the ordinary.
 
would it also be true to say that GENERALLY M.D.s have more of a research background that the average D.O.?
 
Generally speaking, MD's have an easier time getting into competitive residency specialties than similarly qualified DO's. Good or Bad, it's reality.
 
really? i thought that residency slots were bifurcated so that there are X number of allopathic derm spots in a given state, and Y number of osteopathic derm spots in that same state. in fact i'm sure of that. are you talking fellowships?
 
MDs are more prestigious as it is harder to get into a US MD program than a DO school. The match rate and USMLE pass rate is higher for MDs. But to be fair DOs only take this if they want to. Their test is the COMLEX and many also take USMLE so that they can apply to Allopathic residency programs. DOs have certain spots reserved for them but they can apply to MD slots if they fulfill certain requirements. That being said I dont know what MDs learn that DOs dont.
 
EctopicFetus said:
MDs are more prestigious as it is harder to get into a US MD program than a DO school. The match rate and USMLE pass rate is higher for MDs. But to be fair DOs only take this if they want to. Their test is the COMLEX and many also take USMLE so that they can apply to Allopathic residency programs. DOs have certain spots reserved for them but they can apply to MD slots if they fulfill certain requirements. That being said I dont know what MDs learn that DOs dont.

Most MD GME programs DO NOT require DO's to take the USMLE.
 
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delchrys said:
would it also be true to say that GENERALLY M.D.s have more of a research background that the average D.O.?

It would certainly be accurate to say that MD schools offer more opportunity for research--bigger projects with better funding. Not to say that DO schools offer no opportunity for research, but not to the extent of most MD schools.

The only other differences that I can think of that haven't been mentioned are that in the first two years, MD students (at most schools that I know of) are taught more epidemiology, and that Biochem/Cell/Molecular Bio tend to be hit a little harder, or in a different depth.
 
it has more to do with opportunities down the road. since this country and the world is md dominated, the md will have much more opportunities for development down the road. i am spending a year in a research lab, and i had to explain to some of my european lab partners what an osteopathic medical school was.

that being said, one of my former primary care providers was a do doc, and he was very good and very nice. my only beef was that he conducted too many tests, and didn't trust the information i gave him, but i think it has to do more with his inexperience than his degree. i remember on my first visit, he disappeared for almost 45 minutes. ya knew he was doing some reading in harrison's. haha
 
delchrys said:
This is not intended to start a pissing contest. I am curious what MDs learn that DOs do not. I already know that DOs learn OMM, but I have yet to find a person who can explain what MDs learn that DOs don't. Absent a solid answer (not just in this forum, but in general), I guess I don't understand what point there is to getting an MD over a DO.


Oh, very smooth, excellent way to massage the DO student ego, well done, delchrys. This post would not go over well in the allopathic forum.

This thread should be shut down just for including the words MD, DO, and versus together.
Come on, we need to be more intelligent and tactful when asking questions of this nature. Everyone has seen how hard it is to get useful info along these lines with out turning it into a battle between whose philosophy is better.

Alas, I'm taking the bait - MDs don't really learn anything more than DOs. However, as far as what "point" there is to getting an MD...many MD programs I know of offer/require time in the summer after first year to become involved in research, and many MD students take advantage of this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but DO schools don't really do the same. I know of one case where a DO student who scored in the 99th percentile in the COMLEX, and also took the USMLE and scored well, was kept out of a competitive neurosurgery residency because he didn't get research experience at the osteopathic medical school he went to. DO schools aren't as research driven (overall), also becoming a DO student may make it harder to get into some more obscure/competetive residencies.
I think many pre-meds who are more into research or competetive specializations realize that DO schools aren't the most assured way of getting to where they want to go (still possible, but more challenging).
 
Unless DO's are spending significantly more time in class than their MD counterparts, then the MD's must be learning something that the DO's aren't (since part of DO's time is taken up learning OMM).
 
Seaglass said:
Unless DO's are spending significantly more time in class than their MD counterparts, then the MD's must be learning something that the DO's aren't (since part of DO's time is taken up learning OMM).

ouch
 
In-class hours for 1st/2nd year at DO school are generally longer (given the time for OMM lab). I want to say our's averaged 30-35 hrs a week of scheduled lecture time (not that I would know--since I usually studied on my own instead of going to lecture.....sorry 'nother topic)
 
btw, this is kinda a stupid point to make, as time in class doesn't really equate to how much you're "learning"....
 
Boomer said:
btw, this is kinda a stupid point to make, as time in class doesn't really equate to how much you're "learning"....

True, Boomer.
 
someone posted a comparison a while back of credit hrs for ms1 at harvard vs ms1 at kcom and the kcom program had a lot more......so omm is in addition to the md curriculum, not instead of some of it.....well except for the secret md handshake lecture of course
 
This is such a dumb topic. I think we should concede to the DOs. We should also tell US News that KCOM is a better institution than Harvard cause they spend more hours in class. Come on people. We all learn the same crap, but the biggest difference is that MDs are a more prestigious degree and it doesnt close doors on you. Also DOs tend to be more primary care focused.
 
The biggest difference in the MD and DO education can be found primarily :


1. the clinical years, MD students rotate an larger university based hospitals while DO students (more often than not) rotate at smaller community hospitals (this was true for me)
2. During the clinical years, because MD students are at university hospitals at a base institution, didactic education is generally superior (tend to be more organized in approach, dedicated faculty as opposed to volunteer faculty) to that of DO hospital institutions.
3. Residency training incoroporates many of the same aspects as stated above.

The first 2 years of medical school is the exact same with the inclusion of OMT for Osteopathic students.
 
first, this really hasn't BEEN a pissing contest on this thread thus far, so i don't see what the objection is (this directed to yposhelly).

as to the comments everyone has made, thank you very much. my girlfriend is in her allopathic training, and my sister, my best friend, and his wife, are all training in osteopathic medicine. every one of these folks is excellent and well above 'compotent'. i'm wondering, should i ever choose to devote the huge block of my life to medicine, which i would find best for me.

i've talked to M.D.s who were idiots, and to D.O.s who were idiots. I've talked to M.D.s who were great, and the same for some D.O.s. I think the "prestige" thing is largely the result of one thing: M.D.s currently dominate the medical field in terms of numbers and time they've been around and, in many large ways, control. as a result, the 'common belief' as to what degree is 'better' is pretty much dictated by M.D.s

one thing i find interesting is the lack of integration of OMM training in the education of the MD. is this because of some 'competitive' us and them thing, or is it based on the ostensible lack of scientific evidence supporting OMM, or what?
 
the 'common belief' as to what degree is 'better' is pretty much dictated by M.D.s

I would actually argue that this is actually dictated by the fact that it is more difficult to get into MD school than DO school. Additionally, once these students are there MD students do better on Step I than do DO students. These are more objective criteria and not some subjective BS. I agree than DOs and MDs can be both idiots or very smart. I actually worked with a DO ER Resident and he was head and shoulders better than the MD residents because of his breadth of knowledge.

[/QUOTE]'compotent'.
Spell check something if you want to make a point.

Also this is not to flame but I dont think you are qualified to judge the competency of your GF, BF, his wife or your sister. Patients have some say as to the level of care. I dont see how you could tell their ability.

In the end we (DO and MDs) will be given the honor of treating people. Our training is only dependent on the effort we put forth not where we go to school or other BS like that.
 
"Additionally, once these students are there MD students do better on Step I than do DO students."

MIGHT THIS BE BECAUSE D.O. STUDENTS STUDY FOR COMLEX, NOT USMLE....
I'M GUESSING MD STUDENTS WOULD DO POORLY ON COMLEX 1 IF THEY TOOK IT.....
 
emtp2pac said:
"Additionally, once these students are there MD students do better on Step I than do DO students."

MIGHT THIS BE BECAUSE D.O. STUDENTS STUDY FOR COMLEX, NOT USMLE....
I'M GUESSING MD STUDENTS WOULD DO POORLY ON COMLEX 1 IF THEY TOOK IT.....

Hi there,
Contrary to popular opinion, the allopathic medical school does not teach you to pass USMLE and osteopathic medical school does not teach you to pass COMLEX. Both school prepare students to practice medicine.

I have no doubts that as an MD, I would be able to study for and do well on COMLEX and no doubt, many DOs study for and do well on USMLE. The ability to review for and do well on standardized board exams is largely personal and not related to degree. Standardized exams are not the object of medical study, allopathic or osteopathic.

In 2004, there is very little difference in the practice of osteopathic and allopathic medicine and thus, little differences exist beteen allopathic and osteopathic medical school. Graduates of both are physicians and both can be excellent practictioners of medicine.

Prestige is pretty much crap once you are a practicing physician. Either you can do your job or your can't. As for sheer numbers, I undoubtedly encounter more incomptent MDs than DOs but I don't make generalizations based on degree. I suspect that if the MDs were DOs they would still be incompetent.

As an MD, I can learn osteopathic manipulations and incorporate them into my practice if I have the desire just as a DO may opt not to incorporate them. It is largely a matter of style of practice.

In 2004, you have two options to the practice of medicine in the United States. It is totally up to you which option you take. Sure, many allopathic residency programs will not take osteopathic students and osteopathic residencies are not open to MDs but there are enough programs out there for everyone to have a great career. DO vs MD makes little difference to the general public.

njbmd
 
delchrys said:
one thing i find interesting is the lack of integration of OMM training in the education of the MD. is this because of some 'competitive' us and them thing, or is it based on the ostensible lack of scientific evidence supporting OMM, or what?
Yeah, how come MD schools haven't incorporated the idea of OMM? Anyone know?
 
EctopicFetus said:
I would actually argue that this is actually dictated by the fact that it is more difficult to get into MD school than DO school. Additionally, once these students are there MD students do better on Step I than do DO students. These are more objective criteria and not some subjective BS. I agree than DOs and MDs can be both idiots or very smart. I actually worked with a DO ER Resident and he was head and shoulders better than the MD residents because of his breadth of knowledge.
'compotent'.
Spell check something if you want to make a point.

Also this is not to flame but I dont think you are qualified to judge the competency of your GF, BF, his wife or your sister. Patients have some say as to the level of care. I dont see how you could tell their ability.

In the end we (DO and MDs) will be given the honor of treating people. Our training is only dependent on the effort we put forth not where we go to school or other BS like that.

wow. "spell check something if you want to make a point." hmm..i was at work, typing between work-related crap, and lucky to pound out a sensible sentence or three let alone spellcheck? pricks who attack spelling like you crack me up, since apparently this became a 'war' to you rather than an intelligent discussion. when your girlfriend (when you finally get rich and get a gold-digger, since assuredly that's all you'll get) tells you that "it's okay, it's not the size that matters," don't believe her--size does matter. the only point behind that last comment is to demonstrate how pathetic and juvenile your spelling flame was. thankfully, at least now those of us in this forum know what kind of sensitive guy you are when you're looking at a patient from an inner city with difficulty speaking in the manner deemed appropriate by you in your little self-styled intellectual universe. let me guess, your daddy went to med school, too? anyways, enough of the personal attacks, kid.

hmm..why is it more difficult to get into an MD school than a DO school? let's see...general perception of wanna-bes is that MDs are better. so more people apply to be MDs, since they think it will make them better. so there are more MD applicants, so MD schools can be and are more selective. simple. further, i challenge you to cite reliable studies that show a solid correlation between the institution at which one learned their basic sciences and the quality of the doc once that's over. in other words, selective or not, higher MCATs and GPA or lower, it doesn't determine what quality doc one becomes, so that point is wasted words.

lastly, i do think i'm as equipped to judge my friends and family's compotency in several ways--first, from the scores on the objective tests to which you referred, second, from my experiences with them with medical issues, their evaluations from their rotations, and lastly, from the reports i've gotten from close friends who've worked with them in a clinical setting.

i'd write more, but my spell check is broked and i are not smart any mores.
 
Osteopaths specialize in bone diseases and voodoo bone medicine.

Our "residencies" are all located in a large enclosed base in North Carolina. There we are cleansed of body thetans learn holistic bone healing methods.
 
EctopicFetus said:
the biggest difference is that MDs are a more prestigious degree QUOTE]

Debatable, but I conceed this is one of the reasons many people choose to go MD...name recognition, automatic respect. People with huge egos don't want to spend their time explaining what they do.
 
delchrys said:
first, this really hasn't BEEN a pissing contest on this thread thus far, so i don't see what the objection is (this directed to yposhelly).

The objection was made due to similar threads that have been shut down. I have no objection to discussing the differences and benefits of each school, but using the word "versus" was not a good idea. Check out the threads that have been closed in the pre-osteo forum.

your quote-"Absent a solid answer (not just in this forum, but in general), I guess I don't understand what point there is to getting an MD over a DO." was sure to incite some contest of pissing-and it has. You really need to be tactful, especially since people can't hear your tone, they can only read your words, and tend to interpret them based on what mood they are in-or what point they want to make. As a lawyer-to-be, I'm sure you understand this.
 
yposhelley said:
I know of one case where a DO student who scored in the 99th percentile in the COMLEX, and also took the USMLE and scored well, was kept out of a competitive neurosurgery residency because he didn't get research experience at the osteopathic medical school he went to.

Stop it, you are scaring me.
 
delchrys said:
I think the "prestige" thing is largely the result of one thing: M.D.s currently dominate the medical field in terms of numbers and time they've been around and, in many large ways, control. as a result, the 'common belief' as to what degree is 'better' is pretty much dictated by M.D.s

As one of my professors would say, " He who holds the gold makes the rules."
 
Idiopathic said:
Stop it, you are scaring me.

I'm really sorry - its very rare. :oops:
 
Love it... I just ask that when you make a point it helps to spell something properly when it is in quotes and it is a key part of what you are trying to say. Of course at that point your little brain goes and attacks me personally that makes you quite a brave little man.. BTW FYI I am already married and my wife makes more $$$ than I probably ever will. Also, I grew up in the "Inner City" but it never prevented me from learning how to spell. I can also say that I love working with the inner city population and they enjoy working with me because we can relate.

As far as my mom or dad being MDs ahh they arent. Your comments completely reek of jealousy. :laugh:

Your point about DOs and their performance on the USMLE doesnt work because you fail to consider the fact that the DOs that take it are a self selected group since it is not a requirement. Therefore, an argument can be made that these students should do better on average than MD students if they were all equally knowledgeable. That being said doing a little search on this website can show that a decent number of DOs absolutely rock Step I. But the key is not to pick out individuals but look at the group.

Lastly, as far as arrogance and ego in the MD field I think many physicians (DOs and MDs) have these attributes. I would also say that as you get into the more competetive fields (Derm, Radio, Surg specialties like ENT Ortho Optho) those Drs tend to be more arrogant and have larger egos. For whatever reason, DOs do not make up a large number of these doctors.

Please save the personal slander for now and tell it to me if we ever meet. Then it would show you actually have a pair down. Personal bad mouthing on an website is as childish as giggling after a girl kisses you on your cheek. I dont go after individuals on websites as this is anonymous and comments like yours make you look foolish.
 
EctopicFetus said:
Your point about DOs and their performance on the USMLE doesnt work because you fail to consider the fact that the DOs that take it are a self selected group since it is not a requirement. Therefore, an argument can be made that these students should do better on average than MD students if they were all equally knowledgeable.


Yes, there is self-selection, but this doesn't mean that the DO students taking the USMLE are at the top. Around 1/2 of my class took the USMLE. Yes, this included some of the top students, but it also included some of the bottom (including the very bottom person in our class).
 
I think the "prestige" thing is largely the result of one thing: M.D.s currently dominate the medical field in terms of numbers and time they've been around and, in many large ways, control. as a result, the 'common belief' as to what degree is 'better' is pretty much dictated by M.D.s

I would say that the "prestige" thing is largely the result of two things.
1) it is harder to get into MD school than DO school and while I am sure some people do the DO thing because they wanted to but the majority go because they didnt get in to medical school. I can only speak about the people I know but if this is not a true generalization please let me know.

2) the numbers (USMLE and then the Match) bear out that MD students do better when they look for residency opportunities. I would guess many DOs are locked out of positions because MDs dont want to work with them for whatever reason.

Obviously the majority of DOs are competent and very good docs like MDs are but there is a stigma about getting the DO due to point # 1 &2 .
 
The Fetus makes a good point though. DO's choose to take the USMLE, and still underperform, as a whole. Now, our school is an exception (in many ways), but what he says is, for the most part, very accurate.
 
Here in Kansas you get a BMW and a pretty nurse whether you're an MD or DO.
 
Dr. Mom,

Out of curiosity do you think the people that took the test were representative of your class as a whole or above or below average.
 
Idiopathic said:
The Fetus makes a good point though. DO's choose to take the USMLE, and still underperform, as a whole. Now, our school is an exception (in many ways), but what he says is, for the most part, very accurate.


True, I just wanted to point out that it isn't always the case. 'Course, we also managed to do well as a group on the USMLE (I use "we" loosely here, since I'm not one) even with a broad range of students taking it.
 
EctopicFetus said:
Dr. Mom,

Out of curiosity do you think the people that took the test were representative of your class as a whole or above or below average.


I'd say it was a pretty good cross section, although I imagine it was weighted a bit to the high end. I haven't heard of anyone who didn't pass, although Idio would know better than I.
 
I want to be clear in saying that it is my personal belief that we are all equal and stoic makes the most important point of all. The only thing missing is that we also all have the priviledge to serve humanity. For myself and I would guess most people on here thats the main reason why we went into the health professions.
 
stoic said:
Did you guys see? I just wrote my name in the snow with urine!

This in nonsence.. where did you find snow at this time of year.
I have been meaning to go snowboarding.

My Spelling sucks.. is that going to make me a bad doctor?

I believe that when I was reading "the DO", this morning... they did mention the need for more science to back OMM or OMT.. (is there really a difference.. or same thing.. treatment and manipulation...)

Yes more research chances for MD students... compared to DO students..
But I think more DO students applying have a graduate degree. Prob to make up for lower grades...

Also I noticed .. maybe I am wrong.. but DO applicants/students seem to be very defensive... maybe we should just concentrate more on doing better and better till we get the credit we deserve! We all knew going into this prof we would be dealing with this stereotype... did you not.. we all new we would be dealing with sick people...

But then again.. what do I know.. I am just one person and can't change the world.
 
Wow...an MD vs DO thread that hasn't degenerated into a flame-fest. We're truly all professionals (group hug!).

Yesterday we had Dr. Norman Gevitz (PhD) talk to us, the Class of 2008, about the profession of osteopathic medicine. What an awesome speech that was. It was good because Dr. Gevitz really knows the history of osteopathic medicine, and it was good because he only spoke for 20 minutes, and the rest of the hour was devoted to questions and answers.

The take home message was basically that the battle for equality has already been won. The challenge now is for this generation of DOs to work on the issue of distinctiveness. Do we really have something unique to offer health care or are we just MDs with a different title? (he left that as an open-ended question with no answer...the answer is up to us).

When he was asked about why DO schools have lower entrance stats than MD schools, he simply replied "We fish from a different stream." He gave the example of his years at the U. of Illinois (Chicago) med school, where some students would be admitted without an interview, simply because they had very high stats. He mentioned that situations like that would never happen in DO schools, because DO schools want to talk to applicants and see how they are as persons beyond the numbers ("A high MCAT doesn't make you talk better with patients" was how he put it).

There were some challenges to the profession that he mentioned. Obviously, the lack of quality residencies spread all over the US. Right now, if you want quality osteopathic residencies, you're pretty much limited to the Midwest primarily. Another challenge was to prove/disprove osteopathic manipulative treatments with well-controlled studies.

Anyway, just wanted to share some of his points with you. I always thought Dr. Gevitz's interest in the profession was simply academic, but he really believes in the uniqueness of DOs and wants us to remember the "social movement" aspect of osteopathic medicine, and stressed the need to offer something different and distinctive to health care.
 
Shinken said:
The take home message was basically that the battle for equality has already been won. The challenge now is for this generation of DOs to work on the issue of distinctiveness. Do we really have something unique to offer health care or are we just MDs with a different title? (he left that as an open-ended question with no answer...the answer is up to us).


There were some challenges to the profession that he mentioned. Obviously, the lack of quality residencies spread all over the US. Right now, if you want quality osteopathic residencies, you're pretty much limited to the Midwest primarily. Another challenge was to prove/disprove osteopathic manipulative treatments with well-controlled studies.

These two issues are very much related (at least in my eyes). The energy of osteopathic students/practitioners needs to be spent on planning and ensuring the future, no bickering about which degree holds more presitge. The latter issue is one that will always exist in a field such as medicine where competition is the name of the game.

I really think that the osteopathic profession is at a crucial time in it's existance. It will either work hard to define itself and provide for the continued growth and evolution of the profession as a distinct field of health care, or it will become absorbed into the allopathic world. DO's and MD's have, ironically, become equal enough to question the need for separate degrees.
 
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