DO to Ross/SGU

[mcatkitkat]

Can students from Osteopathic schools in the US transfer to Ross or SGU w/o losing any time? According to Ross' website, transfer credit may be granted up to the 4th semester- that means anyone who gets into the 5th semester would have to spend just 9 or so weeks in the dominica? They can then return to the US for clinicals. Is this true? I guess first it depends on if either school accepts DO credits... Anyone familiar w/such a situation?

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[volvulus]

Why would you leave US DO school to go to the carribean?

 

[Skip Intro]

Check with the NY office.

I know some students who've transferred in from other allopathic schools, also off-shore including SGU and AUC - and including some students recently from the only non-accredited Puerto Rican medical school. But, I only know of one U.S. DO student who has come to Ross to begin studying, and that is only because she hated the DO program she was in in the U.S. However, I'm not sure what credits, if any, she was given and whether or not this was really considered a "transfer".

 

[volvulus]

I don't know what country you live in but in the US DO's have an easier time obtaining allopathic residencies than Carribean grads. I think residency directors choose a US med student applicant (MD or DO) over foriegn applicants.

 

[mcatkitkat]

I agree that US DOs make fine doctors and have little trouble getting good residencies but I just think life would be easier with an MD degree when working with patients. 90% of patients don't know what a DO is and that bothers me.

I don't know, I'm still debating this issue.

I also think that Ross or SGU grads with kick @ss USMLE scores shouldn't have trouble getting into some fairly competitive residencies. I don't want to spend all that time in the dominica so I'm considering the transfer option and returning fairly quickly to the US for my clinical years.

 

[DrMom]

Originally posted by mcatkitkat
I agree that US DOs make fine doctors and have little trouble getting good residencies but I just think life would be easier with an MD degree when working with patients. 90% of patients don't know what a DO is and that bothers me.

In dealing with the general public regarding physicians, I have found that a significant # of people have no clue whether their physician is an MD or DO, they just know that they are a physician. It really doesn't seem to matter to most people.

 

[Skip Intro]

I agree 100% with Dr. Mom.

Rarely is this an issue, except for some underconfident medical students and residents who have self-esteem issues. And, patients that demand to be seen only by the best of the best, will refuse to be seen by an MS3 or MS4 student in a teaching hospital, and want to know where you went to school or did your training before they let you examine them likely have a personality disorder.

 

[volvulus]

mcatkitcat. I just want you to understand that going to Dominica and leaving a US SCHOOL is very risky. Even if you crush the step 1's it still doesn't mean too much if you come from the carribean. Trust me, I go to a top 25 med school and I'm telling you the truth about what it's like getting into good residency. I have been hearing some pretty scary stories from some family practice residents who went to school in the carribean. For most of them FP wasn;t their top choice but they were funneled into it beacause they couldn't get into the fields they wanted to. DO stigmata does exist but it's in places where there aren't many DO schools. In the NE where I'm from, most patients are fully aware of what a DO stands for. I hope this helps.

 

[YellowRose]

Hi Mcatkitkat,

I completely agree with Volvulus, but in the end, you've gotta do what makes you happy. I personally don't think you should have applied to DO programs in the first place, but whats done is done.

I'm sure many programs will let you transfer, but first I would try applying to a few US MD programs, and seeing if you can get into there as a transfer. Many US MD programs take DO transfers, but you've gotta call a few programs. When that doesn't work out, then transfer to caribbean programs. Caribbean programs produce great doctors, some of whom teach at my school, which is a DO school by the way. So if you don't mind jumping through a few more hurdles, and i must agree that it is harder for a caribbean grad to get residencies than DO grads, it can be done. You may not end up in the specialty or program you want, but at least you'll be a happier MD, as opposed to a grumpy DO for the rest of your life, which is something my profession can do without. Best of luck.

 

[drusso]

I'm a DO and I'll be at the Mayo Clinic next year for residency. As a medical student I did rotations at several leading allopathic medical centers. My impression is that there is far less stigma associated with being a DO than a Caribbean MD. Also, the only time a patient has ever questioned my medical degree it has been out of genuine curiousity, "What's the difference between an MD and DO?" and not malice. Patients are used to the idea of several different kinds of "doctors": MDs, DOs, DPMs, DCs, ODs, NDs, DDSs, DMDs, PsyDs, PharmDs, PhDs, etc. Patients just assume that the "doctorly" looking person coming into their room to listen to their heart and lungs and write orders is *THE* doctor.

 

[Stephen Ewen]

First off, I am pretty sure this thread is deserving of an SDN Award, something to the tune of "Most Ironic Question," or the like.

Second,

Originally posted by DrMom
In dealing with the general public regarding physicians, I have found that a significant # of people have no clue whether their physician is an MD or DO, they just know that they are a physician. It really doesn't seem to matter to most people.

A big exception to the experience-based finding that "a significant # of people have no clue whether their physician is an MD or DO" is when patients choose their physicians from a book of providers given out to them by their HMO.

These books almost always tend to publish full letters after the ends of the names of listed providers.

The great thing is that most of the books that I have seen have "keys" for subscribers to interpret the varied letters they encounter therein...and the definition of a DO is pretty much like what a straight line couple of sentences from the AOA might be, viz., about DOs being full physicians with additional training in "holistic" approaches, and so forth.

So, though such patients know who and what they are seeing, there is really no cluttering and confusion over what is what, and DOs are in no regards painted in an inferior light to MDs.

 

[Dr. Bones]

Residencies for DOs vs foreign trained MDs

It all depends upon how you perform in clinicals, your letters of recommendations, your USMLE scores, and your personality and career goals.

 

[teres minor]

To address the Original Question: I'm not personally familiar with it, but I'd imagine it's probably possible at one or the other. You should call them up.

To address the Inflammatory Responses:

Well, there any number of reasons, to transfer from school X to Ross/SGU/whatever.

They might be fed up with OMT. (But I just look at it as like going to a religious school. It may require a bit of faith, but as long as the rest of the education is there, it?s usually not harmful. And maybe it helps develop your critical thinking....)

They might not like the school or climate or something personal. There are tiring political issues, too, with more fanatic DOs pushing their agenda, but you have stuff like that everywhere.

And all the DO propaganda, the whole thing about the DO being the premier alternative to a regular US medical school, so good it?s better than a US medical school. Doesn?t wash.

There are drawbacks. There?s the required internship year before you can start a residency, there?s the fact that there are more DO grads than DO residencies, and DO residencies, in general, aren?t considered as good as allopathic residencies. Though there are some very good DO residencies.

As far as getting an allo residency, there are programs that don?t allow DO?s, or have unofficial DO quotas. You never see an allopathic program filling up with DOs. And I've seen or heard of more than a few IMGs (and DOs) doing well in specialties. So I don't think DOs are at some clear mega advantage over people coming from good foreign schools like the two mentioned. It all has much more to do with the individual.

And if you do try for an allopathic residency, and also take the USMLE Step 1, well, DO pass rates on Step 1 are kind of low. Lower than the better foreign schools. I only heard about this recently, so I?m not sure what?s causing it. Yes, we do take the same courses, and no, OMT isn't screwing us up.

And the whole stigma thing is overrated anyways. Beyond a minority of residency programs, very very very few people and doctors care who?s a DO or MD, or IMG for that matter. Only Frasier and Niels Crane . And I'm not sure I'd want them as patients, anyway.

Yak, yak, yak. DO, MD, IMG, RN, PA, it's all BS. Everyone just wants a good D that can keep them healthy.

Bottom line: getting into medical school is basically hard, but getting into a residency is basically easy.

 

[Thewonderer]

Originally posted by teres minor
They might be fed up with OMT. (But I just look at it as like going to a religious school. It may require a bit of faith, but as long as the rest of the education is there, it?s usually not harmful. And maybe it helps develop your critical thinking....)

Interesting way of looking it.....

They might not like the school or climate or something personal. There are tiring political issues, too, with more fanatic DOs pushing their agenda, but you have stuff like that everywhere.

Off-shore med schools also have lots of politics behind it, in trying to lobby for more FMG residency spots....

And all the DO propaganda, the whole thing about the DO being the premier alternative to a regular US medical school, so good it?s better than a US medical school. Doesn?t wash.

If DO's really believe that's true, then so be it. I, as an allopathic med student, have not problem with DO's thinking that their training is MD + more (i.e. OMT and whole patient way of healing). I have my hands full with diagnosis, treatments, drugs, imaging modalities, etc. I don't see how anybody has time to learn OMT on top of all those.

There are drawbacks. There?s the required internship year before you can start a residency,


I don't understand what you mean. Some states don't allow you to switch to DO residency from allopathic residency unless you have done DO "internship." But nobody has a problem with a DO who goes through allopathic internship + residency. Is this what you are referring to?

there?s the fact that there are more DO grads than DO residencies, and DO residencies, in general, aren?t considered as good as allopathic residencies. Though there are some very good DO residencies.

That's alright. Plenty of DO's take allopathic residencies away from FMG MD's from the Carribean. I don't see a problem with that.

As far as getting an allo residency, there are programs that don?t allow DO?s, or have unofficial DO quotas. You never see an allopathic program filling up with DOs. And I've seen or heard of more than a few IMGs (and DOs) doing well in specialties. So I don't think DOs are at some clear mega advantage over people coming from good foreign schools like the two mentioned. It all has much more to do with the individual.

Some programs don't allow Carribean FMG's or have unofficial Carribean FMG quotas. You gotta separate Carribean FMG's who are American citizens from FMG's from other countries who are originical citizens of those countries. In many countries, cream of the crop get into their med schools. However, you will be hard pressed to argue that cream of the American crop go to Carribean MD schools. Several top residency programs might consider FMG's from, say, Pakistan, India, England, etc. but don't even look at FMG's from Ross, SGU, etc.

And if you do try for an allopathic residency, and also take the USMLE Step 1, well, DO pass rates on Step 1 are kind of low. Lower than the better foreign schools. I only heard about this recently, so I?m not sure what?s causing it. Yes, we do take the same courses, and no, OMT isn't screwing us up.

I will be interested to known FMG passing rates from SGU and Ross specifically (including people who fail the first couple times). Plus, in DO schools, EVERYONE eventually gets to take the USMLE, but at SGU and Ross, they weed out 30+% of people, so you won't even get to take USMLE. I think I would prefer not to take that chance and go for the sure thing.

And the whole stigma thing is overrated anyways. Beyond a minority of residency programs, very very very few people and doctors care who?s a DO or MD, or IMG for that matter. Only Frasier and Niels Crane . And I'm not sure I'd want them as patients, anyway.

Agree. that's why I still think that DO is a better deal than Carribean MD.

Bottom line: getting into medical school is basically hard, but getting into a residency is basically easy.

Correction. Going to DO = getting an American residency easily. Going to Carribean MD = trying to pass and not get weeded out.

 

[BellKicker]

Originally posted by teres minor
Only Frasier and Niels Crane . And I'm not sure I'd want them as patients, anyway.

LOL, just the other day I was watching Frazier. He was being treated for his disfunctional realtionship with Niles. It turned out their doctor had graduated from a school in ".......Grenada!!!! (Ho ho ho)" I must have been like the only European to get that joke.

But come on, I don't think many patients know much about anything. They know a few Ivy League schools and maybe their state school. If you said you graduated from, say, Ross University they might think it's some fancy private school out east.

Those of us with accents (remember Hans and Frans from Saturday Night Live?: We're gonna pump YOU up!)....... Now that's a different story.

Imagine being an DO from the Caribbean with an accent? Do they have special quotas for them?


Later.

 

[volvulus]

I think some people are missing the point here. I don't think pts care about where people went to medical school and what kind of degree etc.... The issue is that if your a foriegn trained med grad then it is much harder to obtain residencies in the US. This is more true for the competitive specialties. I have yet to see a carrib grad in derm, optho, plastics, ent, etc residencies. I'm sure they exist but it's a real long shot. Most Carrib trained grads go into FP, and non-university Internal med programs. (From what I've seen on match lists) DO's do have a higher representation in primary care specialties but's definately easier to match into a comp specialty as a DO then a foriegn MD.

 

[Thewonderer]

Originally posted by volvulus
I think some people are missing the point here. I don't think pts care about where people went to medical school and what kind of degree etc.... The issue is that if your a foriegn trained med grad then it is much harder to obtain residencies in the US. This is more true for the competitive specialties. I have yet to see a carrib grad in derm, optho, plastics, ent, etc residencies. I'm sure they exist but it's a real long shot. Most Carrib trained grads go into FP, and non-university Internal med programs. (From what I've seen on match lists) DO's do have a higher representation in primary care specialties but's definately easier to match into a comp specialty as a DO then a foriegn MD.

Do DO's have their own residencies in derm, ophtho, plastics, etc.? If so, then DO grads do have a real option of going into those fields if they choose to.

 

[drusso]

Originally posted by Thewonderer
Do DO's have their own residencies in derm, ophtho, plastics, etc.? If so, then DO grads do have a real option of going into those fields if they choose to.

Yes, there are osteopathic residencies in those fields...You can find info on the speciality college websites and the AOA residency database.

American Osteopathic College of Dermatology

Amercian Osteopathic College of Ophthalmology

American Osteopathic College of Otolaryngology and Head and Neck Surgery

 

[marleybfour]

A friend of mine went to SGU. It took him three years to get a US residency. He ended up going to England and doing an internship over there for a while. He couldn't pass the required test to get into the US until three tries. I think transferring from a US school to SGU is a big mistake.

 

[skypilot]

Anyone who can't pass the boards won't be able to work in the U.S. even if they went to a U.S. school. It doesn't matter whether they went to SGU or not.

SGU has a board pass rate of about 90% which is about the same as U.S. schools. If you are in the 10% that can't pass you won't be able to work in the U.S.

On the other hand if you go to SGU and do pass the boards you will get a residency with no problem and will be able to work in the U.S. So if you are a good student and work hard SGU will give you an opportunity to be a doctor.

 

[volvulus]

Once again the question is not if they'll pass the boards or not....it's what type of residency you'll get out of a carib school. We're talking about US schools vs. Carib schools. You said the pass rate is simmilar so that's not an issue

 

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by marleybfour
A friend of mine went to SGU. It took him three years to get a US residency. He ended up going to England and doing an internship over there for a while. He couldn't pass the required test to get into the US until three tries. I think transferring from a US school to SGU is a big mistake.

This is like saying, "I know a black woman in the city that lives on Home Relief and ADC (welfare to those of you 'out of the loop'). The perception is that there are tons like that, but, in reality, it's a small percentage (for both 'welfare queens' and SGU grads who can't get residencies). Although SGU has a lot of propaganda, there's the one stat that they don't even put a spin on - that 99% of people seeking a residency in the US got one.

Your friend that went to the UK - US citizen? What test couldn't he pass? The CSA? (No, hasn't been given that long) Step II? If he couldn't pass Step II, but could pass the PLAB or GMC exams (which are brutally harder - it is well acclaimed that a med student from the UK would not be able to pass the exams that are given to people who want to be FMG's in the UK), then there is something gravely wrong.

Pass rate on Step I is 94% from SGU - higher than the national average (93%).

My two friends doing anesthesia next year (one at Yale, one at Tufts, after he interviewed at Mass General), the guy doing ophtho in Columbia SC, the gazillion doing EM everywhere, and the 3 people doing ortho would have to laugh at someone who couldn't get into the US.

Does the cream go to the Caribbean? If you are from NY or California, yes (if you can't wait) - simply because the numbers applying for med school in Cali totally outstrip available spots. Did you know that the University of Kansas gets more applications from California, than they do from Kansas?

Oh, and, for an illuminating overview, look at the licensing requirements in the Green Book. In some jurisdictions, flunking any step 3 times permanently bars you from licensure in that state.

 

[skypilot]

Here's this years match list from SGU. There are lots of internal medicine and family practice but does it look all that different from any other U.S. med school? There's definitely lots of surgery from SGU.

2002 Post Graduate Matches St Georges University, Grenada West Indies
>
> PGY1 Hospital
> Michigan State University
> Queen Alexandra Hospital
>
> Anesthesiology
> Detroit Receiving Hospital & University Health Center
> New York Methodist Hospital
> St. Barnabas Medical Center
> University of New Mexico
>
> Radiology-Diagnostic
> Henry Ford Hospital
> New York Medical College
>
> Emergency Medicine
> Albert Einstein College of Medicine
> Albert Einstein Medical Center
> Detroit Receiving Hospital & University Health Center
> Maimonides Medical Center
> Medical Center of Louisiana at New Orleans
> Sinai-Grace Hospital
> Sparrow Hospital
> Spectrum Health-Downtown Campus
> SUNY Health Science Center
> University Hospital-Syracuse
> University of Florida College of Med
> Wayne State University/Detriot Med Center
>
> Family Practice
> Albert Einstein College of Medicine
> Arrowhead Regional Medical Center
> Genesis Medical Center
> Good Samaritan Regional Medical Center
> Hillcrest Medical Center
> JFK Medical Center
> John Peter Smith Hospital
> Kern Medical Center
> Kingston Hospital
> Lancaster General Hospital
> Mayo Clinic (Rochester)
> Medical Center of Central Georgia
> Memorial Health University Med Center
> Memorial Hermann Hospital System
> Moses H Cone Memorial Hospital
> Northwestern University Medical School
> Palmetto Richland Memorial Hospital
> Phoenix Baptist Hospital & Medical Center
> Pitt County Memorial Hospital
> Saginaw Cooperative Hospitals, Inc.
> San Joaquin General Hospital
> Shadyside Hospital/UPMC
> Somerset Medical Center
> St. Elizabeth Medical Center
> St. Joseph's Hospital and Medical Center
> St. Joseph's Hospital Health Center
> St. Luke's Medical Center
> University of Maryland Medical System
> University of Connecticut School of Med
> University of Oklahoma College of Med
> University of Virginia Medical Center
> William Beaumont Hospital-Troy
> Wilson Memorial Medical Center
>
> Neuropathology
> University Hospital of Cleveland
>
> General Surgery
> Albany Medical Center
> Albert Einstein Medical Center
> Beth Israel Medical Center
> Boston Medical Center
> Boston University
> Brooklyn Hospital Center
> Creighton University School of Medicine
> Good Samaritan Regional Medical Center
> Greenville Hospital System
> Jewish Hospital of Cincinnai
> Maimonides Medical Center
> Meridia Huron Hospital
> Miami Valley Hospital
> Monmouth Medical Center
> North Shore Unviersity Hosptial
> Orlando Regional Medical Center
> Princess Royal Hospital
> Rhode Island Hospital
> St. Barnabas Medical Center
> St. Joseph Mercy-Oakland
> St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center
> St. Vincent's Hosp
> SUNY Buffalo Grad Medical-Dental
> SUNY Buffalo School of Medicine
> SUNY Downstate Medical Center
> UMDNJ - Robert Wood Johnson Medical School
> University of Connecticut
> University of Mississippi School of Med
> University of Tennessee Memorial Hosp
> Washington Hospital Center
> Watford General Hospital
>
> Internal Medicine
> Albany Medical Center
> Allegheny General Hospital
> Alton Ochsner Medical Foundation
> Atlantic City Medical Center
> Brooklyn Hospital Center
> Cabrini Medical Center
> Christiana Care Health Services Inc
> Cleveland Clinic
> Erlanger Medical Center
> Finch University Health Science Center
> Franklin Square Hospital
> Graduate Hospital (Tenent Health System)
> Greater Baltimore Medical Center
> Guy's & St. Thomas' Hospital
> Hartford Hospital
> Hennepin County Medical Center
> Highland General Hospital
> Kaiser Permanente Medical Center
> Kern Medical Center
> LAC-King/Drew Medical Center
> Lenox Hill Hospital
> Long Island City Hosp
> Long Island College Hospital
> Los Angeles County-USC Medical Center
> Loyola University Medical Center
> Lutheran Medical Center
> Maimoides Medical Center
> Maricopa Medical Center
> Marshfield Clinic
> MCP Hahnemann University
> Medical College of Georgia Hospital & Clinic
> Medical Center of Central Georgia
> Medical College of Georgia
> Medical College of Wisconsin
> Memorial Health-University Medical Center
> Morristown Memorial Hospital
> Mt. Sinai Cabrini
> Mt. Sinai School of Medicine
> Nassau University Medical Center
> New York Hospital Medical Center of Queens
> New York Hospital of Queens
> New York Methodist Hospital
> New York University
> Norwalk Hospital
> Shands Jacksonville Medical Center
> Sound Shore Medical Center
> St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center
> St. Michaels Medical Center
> SUNY at Brooklyn
> SUNY at Stony Brook
> SUNY Brooklyn Downstate
> SUNY Downstate Medical Center
> Temple University Hospital
> Thomas Jefferson University Hospital
> UMDNJ-Univ Hospital
> UMMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School
> University of Connecticut School of Medicine
> University of Massachusetts Medical School
> University of S California School of Medicine
> University of Texas Medical Branch Hospital
> University of Connecticut
> University of Connecticut School of Medicine.
> University of Kansas Medical Center
> University of Louisville School of Med
> University of Massachusettes Med School
> University of Southern California SOM
> University of Virginia Medical Center
> University of Washington
> VA Greater Los Angeles Healthcare System
> Veterans Affairs Medical Center
> Washington Hospital Center
> Wayne State University/Detroit Med Center
> Winthrop University Hospital
>
> Internship
> Kingston General Hospital
>
> Internal Medicine/Pediatrics
> Maimonides Medical Center
> Staten Island University Hospital
> University of Hawaii
> University of Kentucky
>
> Obstetrics & Gynecology
> Albany Medical Center
> Albert Einstein Medical Center
> Brookdale University Hospital Medical Center
> Brooklyn Hospital Center
> Cabell Huntington Hospital
> Coney Island Hospital
> Danbury Hospital
> Georgetown University Hospital
> Jersey City Medical Center
> Lutheran Medical Center
> Maimonides Medical Center
> New Hanover Regional Health
> Newark Beth Israel Medical Center
> Stamford Hospital
> Staten Island University Hospital
> SUNY at Buffalo School of Medicine
> Tulane University Hospital and Clinics
> University of Connecticut School of Medicibe.
> University of Kansas Medical Center
>
> Neuropathology
> Maricopa Medical Center
> UMDNJ-New Jersey Medical School
>
> Psychiatry
> Case Western Reserve University
> Medical College of Virginia Hospitals
> Pitt County Memorial Hospital
> SUNY at Stony Brook
> University of Tennessee College of Medicine
>
> Pediatrics
> Albany Medical Center
> Brooklyn Hospital Center
> Case Western Reserve University
> Children's Hospital of Illinois
> Harlem Hospital Center
> Kosair Children's Hospital
> Long Island College Hospital
> Maimonides Medical Center
> Miami Children's Hospital
> Nassau University Medical Center
> New York Medical College
> New York Methodist Hospital
> Newark Beth Israel Medical Center
> Shands Jacksonville Medical Center
> St. Joseph's Hospital
> St. Joseph's Hospital & Medical Center
> Strong Memorial Hospital of the University of Rochester
> Sunrise Hospital and Medical Center
> SUNY at Syracuse
> SUNY Downstate Medical Center
> UMDNJ-New Jersey Medical Center
> University of Illinois College of Medicine
> University Medical Center (Las Vegas)
> University of Arkansas College of Medicine
> University of Maryland
> University of Nevada School of Medicine
> University of Oklahoma College of Medicine
> University of Texas Medical Branch
> Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center
> Westchester Medical Center
> Westchester Medical College
> Winthrop University Hospital
>
> Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation
> MetroHealth Medical Center
> St. Barnabas Medical Center
>
> Pathology
> Downstate Medical Center
> George Washington University Hospital
> University of Hawaii John A Burns SOM
>
> Transitional Year
> Harbor Hospital Center
> Hospital of St. Raphael
> Maryland General Hospital
> St. Barnabas Medical Center
> St. Joseph Mercy-Oakland
> St. Luke's Hospital
>
> Urology
> Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center

 

[volvulus]

That match list is not impressive.

1. FP, Int MEd, and gen surg are relatively easy to get. In addition I did not see many top progrmas in that list.

2. I did not see any optho, derm or ent on that list either. Maybe the transitional people are slotted to go into some of these but it's highly unlikely.

I think we shoud compare it to a mid level US med school's list and then start high fiving each other about SGU's list.

 

[metsn02]

Originally posted by Apollyon
This is like saying, "I know a black woman in the city that lives on Home Relief and ADC (welfare to those of you 'out of the loop'). The perception is that there are tons like that, but, in reality, it's a small percentage (for both 'welfare queens' and SGU grads who can't get residencies). Although SGU has a lot of propaganda, there's the one stat that they don't even put a spin on - that 99% of people seeking a residency in the US got one.

Pass rate on Step I is 94% from SGU - higher than the national average (93%).

Where are you getting your stats for SGU pass rates? Everything that I have read about FMG pass rates on the USMLE step I are far below US allopathic and osteopathic medical students. Since people like to seemingly bring in stats without any citations or supporting evidence I will reverse this trend and quote stats that were included in the 2002 edition of "First Aid for the USMLE Step I". Keep in mind these statistics were taken from the National Board of Medical Examiners and not a particular off-shore school that has an agenda.

# Tested / % Passing

Allopathic 1st time takers: 16,412 / 93%
Repeaters: 1,855 / 58%
Allopathic Total: 18,267 / 90%

Osteopathic 1st time takers: 785 / 77%
Repeaters: 38 / 40%
Osteopathic Total: 823 / 75%

Total Allopathic/Osteopathic: 19,090 / 89%


FMG 1st time takers: 8,767 / 65%
FMG Repeaters: 4,688 / 36%
FMG Total: 13,545 / 55%

The most telling statistics of this comparison are the differences between osteopathic student performance vs. FMG performance. Osteopathic students were a full 12% higher in terms of first take USMLE performance and 20% higher with 1st time takers and repeaters factored in. Also check out the number of FMG's who had to take step I a second time, over 50%.

This data is not very encouraging for anyone crazy enough to transfer from a US school (allopathic or osteopathic) to a caribbean school.

 

[skypilot]

The SGU match list is not that impressive. But it is not too bad either is it? I don't think it matters that lots of FMG's don't pass the boards since 93% of SGU grads do pass the boards. Actually I would be happy to have either a DO or a degree from SGU! For the 1 out of 200 patients that ask me I would be happy to explain that I went to medical school on an island and then did my residency at the University of Hawaii. Sounds pretty good right now when it is 20 degrees outside!

 

[skypilot]

Here's Boston University's match list for comparison. Obviously it is a much better list but if you wanted to do Ortho at Hopkins you should have thought about that before you got a C- in Organic Chemistry!


Anesthesiology8
Dermatology4
Emergency Medicine12
Family Practice9
General Surgery13
Internal Medicine31
Internship Deferred 3
Medicine-Preliminary 1
Medicine-Primary 2
Neurology2
Obstetrics-Gynecology4
Ophthalmology 4
Orthopaedic Surgery 5
Otolaryngology4
Pediatrics14
Pediatrics-Primary1
Pediatrics-Primary/BMC 1
Plastic Surgery 1
Psychiatry7
Radiation-Oncology 1
Radiology-Diagnostic 8
Surgery-Preliminary 3
Transitional5
Urology 5

Total Number of Students
148

 

[volvulus]

Skypilot,
Thanks for the BU list. Your right, if you want to do something competitive....it's better to stay in the US.

 

[Apollyon]

1. Granted, the SGU pass rate is now 91% - but still over the national average of 89% (check with the NBME). You are quoting ALL FMG's. They are not the same. Are all foreign cars Mercedes? I'm not saying that SGU grads are the best, but we put about 350 in the match per year, out of about 16000 total that aren't US seniors. To lump us (where, 3 times in the past 10 years, the high scorer on Step I has been from my school, and, one year, the person was from Ross) in with 15.500+ others is ill advised - that's like using Wayne State or the UI that has 300 students as the barometer for the whole country. Believe it or don't, there are different focuses at different schools.

2. 63/148 is not good for primary care; this is the same problem that has been coming up since before virtually any of you were in medicine - too many specialists. As I said above, different schools have different focuses. About half of all specialists in the US are FMGs (US and non US), after the 26% of all docs in the US that are FMG. Take who does surgical specialties (like ENT, derm (well, maybe med), ortho, and ophtho) with a grain of salt; how many would do that if they had to do 3 years of General surgery first? (The Uro's do 2 years, but, now, it's mostly integrated, so it's like the others). Believe it or don't, there's people in medicine that WANT to do FP or peds (granted, not all of these people did, but, not all are failed applicants for more lucrative specialties). Note that the BU list has only 2 for Neuro, and none for PM&R - Neuro Electro Phys is riddled with money, and PM&R is the actuary of medicine. Sure, some of these people like bones and skin, but NONE are in ENT, ophtho, ortho, or derm for the money, hours, and prestige?

The last caveat I have is the flippant "C- in Organic Chemistry" - there are very few (some, but rare) people that had a US acceptance, and came to Grenada. Our board scores are leaps and bounds over the average FMG's, because our student base is from CA, NY, and TX (with a bunch of others) - in California, they've said that they could take the whole applicant base, make a parallel program at all the UC schools, fully stock it with students, and still have an applicant pool of fully qualified people, that they don't have room for. That's who comes to our school.

The bottom line is, you're essentially a fool to leave a US school for a Caribbean school (and I've seen them - and internally stewed about THAT being my competition, and THAT PERSON was better than me? At least I'm reliable, and complete what I start!)...but, no matter where you are, you can get what you want, if you work for it (we had 2 people in Ophtho this year, and I know a guy from Harvard who didn't match - so go figure).

 

[Skip Intro]

Originally posted by metsn02


FMG 1st time takers: 8,767 / 65%
FMG Repeaters: 4,688 / 36%
FMG Total: 13,545 / 55%

The most telling statistics of this comparison are the differences between osteopathic student performance vs. FMG performance.

To echo Apollyon's excellent comments, this includes IMGs (or FMGs) who are doctors in their native countries and, for whatever reason, chose to come to the U.S. to practice medicine likely after having been out of medical school for years.

At Ross, first-time pass rates were about 86% in 2001 and have varied between 86-94% over the past 5 years. (Look on their website.)

Recently, Ross has even made it a lot tougher to get off the island, though. If you currently do not meet the minimum of 2.9 GPA at the end of the first four semesters, you are required to take and pass the NBME comprehensive "shelf" exam before leaving the island. If you cannot do this, you must take an additional Basic Medical Sciences Integration course (a decelerated review course) before sitting again for the "comp shelf" and subsequent Step I exam. I suspect that first-time pass rates will return into the 90-95% range.

Ross (and I'm sure SGU does as well) carefully tracks their students and attempts to use statistics to define what students are likely to succeed and what students are likely to do poorly on Step I, or in their medical education in general. Speaking from personal observation in my class, I can tell you that all of the students who recently left the island with a GPA above the requirement (myself included) have demonstrated a solid knowledge of the pre-clinical science and are generally impressive people. The ones in the group who will remediate, on the other hand, need some more "work", if you will.

That's the way the system is supposed to work. Sending the latter group off now would certainly lead them to failure on Step I. Many who started in my original class have already failed out. They couldn't do the work. Again, there is a weeding-out process that ultimately lets the cream rise in any given class.

The system is tough. But those who can hack it move on. It's not a Sunday stroll, contrary to what a lot of people falsely believe. And, those who are there want to be there or they wouldn't be putting themselves through that sort of hell, trust me. And, even those who fail out had their day in the sun, so to speak. They may not ultimately become doctors (at least from Ross), but at least they got their chance.

 

[Thewonderer]

I did remember that someone (our moderator?) from this website mentioned that SGU's matchlist only includes what people will do during the first year out of residency?! Therefore, if you do neurology or radiology, you will most likely be listed as internal medicine since that will be your preliminary year.

However, ophthal and ortho are all integrated programs nowadays so I will be surprised that SGU will leave them out as those will enhance its matchlist greatly.

 

[youngjock]

Originally posted by marleybfour
A friend of mine went to SGU. It took him three years to get a US residency. He ended up going to England and doing an internship over there for a while. He couldn't pass the required test to get into the US until three tries. I think transferring from a US school to SGU is a big mistake.

so was it because he didn't pass the exams, that is why he had hard time obtaining a residency, or was it because he graduated from a carib. school?

which is correct?

 

[dvdrv31]

Originally posted by marleybfour
A friend of mine went to SGU. It took him three years to get a US residency. He ended up going to England and doing an internship over there for a while. He couldn't pass the required test to get into the US until three tries. I think transferring from a US school to SGU is a big mistake.

I seriously doubt it was because he went to SGU. Some sort of board scores or something of that nature is the culprit here.

 

[sgufmg]

Voluvus,

Where do you get your information? I would advise you to go the sgu.edu website and look at the match list for the past 5 years. In internal medicine, our students have no problem obtaining university programs provided they score 85+ step I/II. Furthermore, in this year's class, we had two students match ENT at LSU-Shrevesport and one Neurosurgery SLU. Also, 3 opthamology residencies in the past 3 years, and 2 ortho residencies.

 

[Reality check]

You all realize the extreme competitiveness of getting into a dermatology / ophthalmology residency spot from a US Med school. Top of your class, AOA , high board scores, research and publications and of course alot of luck as well. Some of the best US med sctudents fail to get accepted into these specialties. Coming from SGU/Ross your chances of getting accepted into these US programs is very slim to zero.
Don't kid yourself.
Carrib. med schools give you a chance of becoming an MD. The majority of them get into peds/inter.med/fam.prac. and as of lately yes gen. surgery.
Don't sugar coat carr.med schools in getting students top notch specialties like derm/ophth/ortho/etc........ You are fooling yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by Reality check
You all realize the extreme competitiveness of getting into a dermatology / ophthalmology residency spot from a US Med school. Top of your class, AOA , high board scores, research and publications and of course alot of luck as well. Some of the best US med sctudents fail to get accepted into these specialties. Coming from SGU/Ross your chances of getting accepted into these US programs is very slim to zero.
Don't kid yourself.
Carrib. med schools give you a chance of becoming an MD. The majority of them get into peds/inter.med/fam.prac. and as of lately yes gen. surgery.
Don't sugar coat carr.med schools in getting students top notch specialties like derm/ophth/ortho/etc........ You are fooling yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You write so much, yet abbreviate 'Caribbean' (ie, "Carrib." and "Carr." are incorrect). Also, you are grouping people as a whole - as is abundantly clear, it's the individual applicant. Ipso facto, if an FMG gets the spot, they have gotten a top-notch specialty residency. Expectations about a 'blank check' from any school are foolish (in that I know a guy from Harvard who didn't match in ophtho), and so, again, it comes back to individual effort.

Also, a little botulinum for the finger can do wonders with those exclamation points.

 

[Reality check]

Nice try but your argument is unconvincing to me. Individual effort huh? How many of your SGU/Ross graduates have been accepted into a dermatology/ ophthalmology residency program during the past 5 years?
Facts are facts. Look at the statistics on how many get into the aforementioned residencies. Very few if none at all. They must be paying you extremely well to defend these profit making institutions in the Caribbean.
Shame on you.

 

[Stephen Ewen]

At the same time, most Carrib (an abbreviation I use routinely) students do not entertain high hopes or expectations of being able to land a derm, ortho, or ENT residency. Hardly. It is more the rather "maverick" individual who will lay down plans for themselves in these regards, or for still less competitive residencies (e.g., ob/gyn, radio), and work their utter little tails off to ensure they have the best possible chance academically and connection-wise (I am reminded of Dr Cut's good example in this of "Radiology or Bust!"--very probably words that help empower, and not necessarily delimit him) to attain it, but who also have sound backup plans and are ready to put their prior-exercised force into those should circumstance beyond their control demand it.

I am always extremely careful about leveling critiques against Carrib student folks. Whatever critiques might be raised against them, they tend to be persons who are very ardent in pursuit of a dream against odds their peers do not face, and who have often developed very enviable qualities in this regard in the end.

At the same time again, I think the point has already been well-substantiated here that if you are in or can enter a DO route...be and feel proud and go/stay there! You have entered a truly text-book example of a movement that has adapted well with the times (yet who has appropriately held on to its roots), and who makes crucial contributions of ideas and physicians to the best of mainstream U.S. medicine, and who vitally converges with it. Nowhere else in the world does such a thing exists on this sort of a level (I am sure the folks on the DO Forums can well help in all these regards, and I can help on specific questions too, if anyone wishes).

 

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by Reality check
Nice try but your argument is unconvincing to me. Individual effort huh? How many of your SGU/Ross graduates have been accepted into a dermatology/ ophthalmology residency program during the past 5 years?
Facts are facts. Look at the statistics on how many get into the aforementioned residencies. Very few if none at all. They must be paying you extremely well to defend these profit making institutions in the Caribbean.
Shame on you.

How old are you? 23? You must be young (or, at least, never had a real job) to think that everyone goes into medicine to do the hard-to-get specialties. You don't know how many people applied, that didn't get it. If only one applied, and one got it, then that's 100%. I'll tell you personally that I only know one guy who applied for ophtho, and he didn't get it. I know of one who did, and so that's 50%.

And, "shame on me"? Where the hell do you get off being so high and mighty? I'm not getting paid anything. You have to have not been in US medicine to realize that it's what you bring to the table. Since you deride "these profit making institutions", what do you say about the people who go there? Will you say, "Sorry, you didn't get in in the US, so you're out of luck"? If so, you are putting your faith in admissions committees...which doesn't make you look too smart.

The ends justify the means, if it means becoming a doctor. Maybe when you get out from under the umbrella of a school where all you see are the same 50 or 100 classmates, will you see that there's more than enough work for everyone.

And the moderator has made the point much more eloquently. An image I often use is, who would you want working on your grandmother - the doctor who has never known rejection, and who has been spoon-fed their whole life, or someone who fights for every patient? You don't have to be a foreign grad to be a fighter, but you won't find too many elitists among the foreign grads, either.

 

[volvulus]

MAybe the reason that so few applied to those residencies is because they knew they were marginal canidates at best. Why apply if you know your not going to be competitive. Second, you asume that those who go to the carribs are "fighters." How are you making that assumption? Can't you argue that people in US schools are even more a fighter because they worked harder to get there? So wouldn't you want a doctor with a good work ethic rather than one that was a slacker. Your statements are just plain ludicrous.

 

[OphthoBean]

Ophtho (and possibly other specialties that match through the SF Match?) requires med school and undergraduate college transcripts as part of the application process. Perhaps many caribbean students don't apply to or match for ophtho (and maybe others) because the less than stellar undergraduate record which may have prompted them to seek schooling abroad in the first place is again showcased for residency programs. Just a thought.

 

[woodzy]

Originally posted by volvulus
MAybe the reason that so few applied to those residencies is because they knew they were marginal canidates at best. Why apply if you know your not going to be competitive. Second, you asume that those who go to the carribs are "fighters." How are you making that assumption? Can't you argue that people in US schools are even more a fighter because they worked harder to get there? So wouldn't you want a doctor with a good work ethic rather than one that was a slacker. Your statements are just plain ludicrous.

Volvulus, the most ludicrous thing on this thread is the assumptions you choose to make time and time again about those going abroad for their education (in past and present posts). Do you honestly think that all of the people in US schools are somehow more deserving of US spots because they worked harder to get there? What a foolish and small minded point of view.
There are a vast amount of reasons why people don't get into US schools: politics, a person's location in a state with limited medical school spots, etc., etc., etc. Believe me, myself and a lot of my classmates worked our a**es off in college and did very well on the MCAT, had good grades, and still didn't get in. So I chose to pack up all my stuff into a couple of suitcases, take my wife, and get on a plane to a third world country I had never been to before because I was willing to do WHATEVER it took to become a doctor. So, yeah, we are fighters when it comes down to doing what we need to do to reach our goals. And to top it all off we have to put up with absolute BS from small minded people like you who haven't got a clue as to what they're talking about.
By the way the real reason that most of us don't apply to derm and optho and ortho spots isn't because we don't have the numbers, it's because we know that the fact that we went abroad matters to a lot of PD's even though it really shouldn't. Just like it shouldn't matter to you or anyone else.

 

[Reality check]

Apollyon,
Who are you? A secretary working for the Dean of Admissions at SGU/Ross? You create statements in your head that were never said to you and inadvertantly become very defensive in expressing your points. All I said was that SGU/Ross med students have virtually no chance of matching into specialties like derm/ophth into US programs. Did I ever mention anything about not able to find work after completing a certain residency? The answer is NO. All kidding aside, after reading your post you have very low self esteem of yourself, insecurities and are delusional in respect to your statements. Get help. Or better yet; start yourself on Haldol I.V. drip you paranoid schiz.
Grow up and learn how to read, interpret and ansewr.
Please tell me you are not an M.D.

 

[Stephen Ewen]

Attack arguments, not persons, please.

 

[volvulus]

Believe me, myself and a lot of my classmates worked our a**es off in college and did very well on the MCAT, had good grades, and still didn't get in.

Well I can almost bet you that the majority of people that go to school in the carribs can't say the same. Why else do so many students fail out or fail the boards? In addition, how can you assume that students in the carribs are "fighters." US students have to work just as hard if not harder to get the grades to be accepted into med school and then work harder once in med school. If you thik carib students are so exceptional...can you please tell me why their match lists are sub-par?

 

[woodzy]

Originally posted by volvulus
Well I can almost bet you that the majority of people that go to school in the carribs can't say the same. Why else do so many students fail out or fail the boards? In addition, how can you assume that students in the carribs are "fighters." US students have to work just as hard if not harder to get the grades to be accepted into med school and then work harder once in med school. If you thik carib students are so exceptional...can you please tell me why their match lists are sub-par?

Once again you respond with sweeping generalizations based on undoubtedly limited information. The pass rate at SGU on usmle step 1 for first time test takers is 91% which is slightly better than the us national average, so unless your willing to make the same generalizations about US students failing the boards or failing out of school, your argument is ridiculous. SGU has a high board pass rate and a very low attrition rate...those are facts.
The rest of your argument is quickly degenerating into something resembling an argument at recess at any given elementary school..."we work harder than you do"...what a load of unsubstantiated crap!!
Also as I said before the reason for our match lists being"sub-par" is because some if not most program directors choose to factor medical school location into their decisions even though it really shouldn't matter at all. Also, how are you making a decision about what constitutes a sub-par match list?? Please back up your arguments with solid facts instead of statements with absolutely no basis in reality.

 

[PediaSure]

Generalizations commonly made on SDN

1. All IMGs are idoits. They were too stupid to get into US schools.

2. All URMs are idiots. They only get into med school because of AA.

3. All Caucasian/Indian/Asians who don't get into med school are idiots. They let some stupid URM take their place.

3. All DOs are idiots. They only go to DO schools because they could not get into Allopathic schools.

4. All second and third tier medical students are stupid. They could not get into Harvard, Yale, etc.

5. All Med/Peds/FP residents are idiots. They could not get into Derm/Optho/ENT/Neuro/Uro.

6. All medical students who graduated after 1995 are lazy. They can't take 150 hr work week.


PS: THIS IS MEANT IN JEST. WE SHOULD NOT TAKE OURSELVES TOO SERIOUSLY. WE SHOULD NOT LUMP PEOPLE INTO GROUPS.
I JUST GET SO TIRED OF HEARING: "I AM BETTER THAN YOU BECAUSE I GO TO XYZ SCHOOL." I DID NOT GET INTO MED SCHOOL B/C OF SOME URM." "MD IS BETTER THAN DO." YOU GET THE PICTURE....

 

[volvulus]

Hmmm, you say the pass rate for SGU is 91%. Well I have heard that a chunk of students fail out even before they get a chance to take the boards. Second, SGU is one school in the carribean. LAst time I checked we were talking about all schools in the carribean. Using your logic I could say since Harvard's pass rate is 100% the US avg is the same. I believe there are over a dozen medical schools in the carribean that accept US citizens. Third, I am not talking about all IMG's. I am talking about carribean students. There are many IMG's (especially those form Europe and Asia that have excellent training from their native countries). Fourth, I will agree that I don't have too much statistics to back up my match list comment, however, by just looking at the list posted in this thread before answers some questions. The list clearly lacks many "competitive" specialties. In addition, the ratio of reputed academic centers to community hospitals is much lower than most mid tier US schools.
Peace

 

[doctim]

for the record:
an IMG = International med grad = US citizen completing their degree outside of the US
an FMG = Foreign med grad = "those form Europe and Asia" = non-US citizens completing degree outside USA

what it all boils down to is getting a residency. why don't IMG's get optho/derm etc??? some of the PD's i met on the trail seem to want US students from big name programs - it's all about reputation (unfortunately).

of course, there were a few PD's that i met that looked past the fact that i went to a foreign med school. (at least i hope so - will find out in about 2 weeks )

 

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by Reality check
Apollyon,
Who are you? All kidding aside, after reading your post you have very low self esteem of yourself, insecurities and are delusional in respect to your statements. Get help. Or better yet; start yourself on Haldol I.V. drip you paranoid schiz.
Grow up and learn how to read, interpret and ansewr.
Please tell me you are not an M.D.

Lern to spel nd tipe. Oh, and use punctuation appropriately.

Kidding? Your post (which got you a warning from the mod...take that to heart) is reminiscent of the blather that clogs the pre-allopathic fora - people who talk first, and don't bother to think much, and who can't or don't modulate what they say. While you were attacking away, I was on call, and, for being an immature paranoid schiz, the attending told me I was "efficient" this morning. Go figure. I guess that's what happens when I have low self esteem of myself.

While I was in hospital, something came to mind - although I'd long held that match lists are only cared about by people who aren't in the system (ie, premeds) or the relatively low number of administrators in med schools (and their PR flacks), I didn't put it together with foreign schools. What I realized is that the match list at St. George's, Ross, or any other non-US school, is irrelevant, since people don't even consider the Caribbean or elsewhere, if being in the US is an option; I further posit that the consideration of DO vs. Caribbean (the original purpose of this thread) does not include a match list as to choose one or the other.

To compare a list of a Caribbean school to a US school is not a parallel, nor is it germane. Once again, as I've said, it is individual effort. Your assertions to the contrary, any and all program directors that have ranked an FMG (and, by extension, matched them), directly contravening your point, consider these FMG's to be worthy - and these people (all of them) are well senior to you. Do you think you are more wise than the very people that make match lists happen?

Oh, and - "IMG/FMG"...I thought that FMG was passé, and IMG was now the politically correct response. The subset was USIMG and IMG (with the local contingent still not clear, vis a vis USMG and AMG). I guess the idea that there even IS a difference, shows that there is a relatively substantial volume of people in the category.