DO disadvantages

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Dr Dazzle

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Hi guys,

I wanted to get more insight regarding the disadvantages of going to DO school in terms of getting a residency/fellowship. Many DOs have stated that your options are definitely more limited. Is that true? If so, I would like to know how much limited based on your experience.

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The disadvantages I've seen have been related to 3rd/4th year rotations. DO rotations are not in academic settings. DO clinical experience often comes through mentorship one on one with an attending. If you go into an ACGME residency, you may lack experience in working in an academic environment. Also, our rotation experiences aren't always stadardized. There are some rotation sites that are, but some DO students rotate at very small hospitals that lack adequate pathology. Definitely not universal. You can overcome these disadvantages if you're conscious about it and plan.
 
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Do a search. Tons of threads on this already.... and they nearly always blow up into shenanigans.
In a nutshell - Matching in the ACGME is harder for a DO vs an MD as a general rule. But matching is a very subjective process so this isn't going to be true for all programs and tends to be less true in primary care or less competitive fields.

That's about it. If you have your heart set on academic cardiothoracic surgery you are better off going MD. If you want to match into basically anything clinical that isn't crazy competitive being a DO will limit your options a little but you should be able to find placement without too much trouble.
 
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The disadvantages I've seen have been related to 3rd/4th year rotations. DO rotations are not in academic settings. DO clinical experience often comes through mentorship one on one with an attending. If you go into an ACGME residency, you may lack experience in working in an academic environment. Also, our rotation experiences aren't always stadardized. There are some rotation sites that are, but some DO students rotate at very small hospitals that lack adequate pathology. Definitely not universal. You can overcome these disadvantages if you're conscious about it and plan.

How would you suggest planning for it? In my experience, this is highly dependent on the DO school you go to. I guess away rotations to academic hospitals could be one way. Are there other ways to maximize opportunities?
 
How would you suggest planning for it? In my experience, this is highly dependent on the DO school you go to. I guess away rotations to academic hospitals could be one way. Are there other ways to maximize opportunities?

go to CCOM/PCOM/NSU/COMP.
 
go to CCOM/PCOM/NSU/COMP.

I'd also add NYCOM to the list... St. Barnabas healthcare system in NJ, St. Barnabas Hospital in the Bronx, Lutheran Medical Center, Maimonides Medical Center, etc... The above schools also have great reputations.... bottomline is do a little homework on the clinical opportunities that are available to you and choose where to apply (or at least the school's you'd LIKE to pursue the most) because many DO schools do have very respectable clinical opportunities.
 
I'd also add NYCOM to the list... St. Barnabas healthcare system in NJ, St. Barnabas Hospital in the Bronx, Lutheran Medical Center, Maimonides Medical Center, etc... The above schools also have great reputations.... bottomline is do a little homework on the clinical opportunities that are available to you and choose where to apply (or at least the school's you'd LIKE to pursue the most) because many DO schools do have very respectable clinical opportunities.

I completely disagree. NYCOM has no electives in the third year, only cores at there selected from their hospital (not a great list of hospitals to choose from). And they will not budge from their policies in order to help the student, they only care about their own rules since they have so many students.

Fourth year, however, you do get to choose but what is the point if you can't rotate through electives in third year to get a flavor of what you want to do for the rest of your career.

Again, I cannot reiterate, do not go to NYCOM if you want flexibility in your scheduling.
 
What about WVSOM? I've seen match lists with competitive specialty matches from them and several other DO schools. Does that mean that it comes down to the student to make it happen despite the non ideal setup? What about the upcoming AOA and ACGME match combination.
 
How would you suggest planning for it? In my experience, this is highly dependent on the DO school you go to. I guess away rotations to academic hospitals could be one way. Are there other ways to maximize opportunities?

You're right. It's absolutely dependent on the school you go to. Here in KC, there are some rotation sites that are great. Some, well, benefit a very specific interest. ;-) I guess it really depends on what your interests are. If rural medicine is your interest, it's advantageous to get in a rural setting and get your hands dirty early. However, I think that these people need that academic experience. .

Externships are a great opportunity to supplement your core rotations. I'd say seek out electives during the fourth year that are a challenge and you should be well prepared for residency.
 
What about WVSOM? I've seen match lists with competitive specialty matches from them and several other DO schools. Does that mean that it comes down to the student to make it happen despite the non ideal setup? What about the upcoming AOA and ACGME match combination.

So.... the biggest issue you are having (and most people have, in this discussion in general) is an inability to understand people talking about odds. Sure, DO schools have good match lists. Your odds of being seen as competitive at more programs increases by going MD. It is as simple as that. Depending on the field you want, the odds may be unnoticeably higher or so high that you either have to go AOA (for the few more years that this is an option for competitive specialties) or choose something different.
 
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Oh my word quit whining and do something good.
 
And then get screwed later, when you can't practice what you want in medicine.

You may also have to weigh that against the odds of not being able to do medicine at all for being too picky. Just like your odds shift when attending Hopkins vs SIU, being a DO vs MD changes the way you are perceived at a noteworthy number of programs. It doesn't make it impossible to match (most of the time), but all else being equal you will likely find yourself lower on a rank list than you would if you were MD (or again, MD to MD+Hopkins).

Given that you are pre-med and you therefore likely have little to no idea what it is you really want to do, simply getting in and getting a medical degree is the biggest goal. There are a number of different things to do even within non-competitive fields that most people should be able to find some satisfaction in.
 
You may also have to weigh that against the odds of not being able to do medicine at all for being too picky. Just like your odds shift when attending Hopkins vs SIU, being a DO vs MD changes the way you are perceived at a noteworthy number of programs. It doesn't make it impossible to match (most of the time), but all else being equal you will likely find yourself lower on a rank list than you would if you were MD (or again, MD to MD+Hopkins).

Given that you are pre-med and you therefore likely have little to no idea what it is you really want to do, simply getting in and getting a medical degree is the biggest goal. There are a number of different things to do even within non-competitive fields that most people should be able to find some satisfaction in.

Great insight. I have been accepted to DO schools. However, no love from MD. Therefore, it's a matter of banging head against the wall and reapplying for MD or taking the DO acceptance and hoping that I can still do what I want to do in medicine. Which could be something competitive since I'm looking at 250k+ debt and primary care reimbursement sucks.
 
I completely disagree. NYCOM has no electives in the third year, only cores at there selected from their hospital (not a great list of hospitals to choose from). And they will not budge from their policies in order to help the student, they only care about their own rules since they have so many students.

Fourth year, however, you do get to choose but what is the point if you can't rotate through electives in third year to get a flavor of what you want to do for the rest of your career.

Again, I cannot reiterate, do not go to NYCOM if you want flexibility in your scheduling.

NYCOM has one elective in the third year, and all of the the hospitals I listed above are core hospitals affiliated with the school. You're entitled to your opinion, I just wanted to set the record straight.
 
I completely disagree. NYCOM has no electives in the third year, only cores at there selected from their hospital (not a great list of hospitals to choose from). And they will not budge from their policies in order to help the student, they only care about their own rules since they have so many students.

Fourth year, however, you do get to choose but what is the point if you can't rotate through electives in third year to get a flavor of what you want to do for the rest of your career.

Again, I cannot reiterate, do not go to NYCOM if you want flexibility in your scheduling.

I am a NYCOM grad and soon to be IM attending. While I have no love lost for NYCOM, I would not recommend against them. I agree with jump, if you want flexibility they are not forgiving. they WANT you to rotate at their core sites. They WANT you to stay in NYC-SI-LI-bronx. They have a few satellite programs. A few of us spent alot of time in bingampton as we are from upstate. They also let me do almost my entire fourth year in the central NY-SYR-Albany area. I did 1/2 my third year in albany and 1/2 in NJ. However. MOST students dont have the family and financial restrictions I had and they can rotate anywhere. The NYCOM core sites are very good and most of them have residency programs. Barnabus NYC and NJ, Maimo, Lutheran, Coney, LIJ, NUMC...all these places have like 10 different residencies and many fellowships and they al prefer NYCOM grads. rotating there helps alot and inner NYC is a great training experience. SPend some time in the 130,000 yearly visit ED at barnabus in the bronx and you will get your mind blown.

ALso, I did have a third year elective at the end of the year. But personally, I dont think you need them. You need to do core IM, Surg, Peds, FP and OB before you start doing other stuff. I have worked with MS3s who want to do rads and he was on my service doing third year medicine near the end of the year and he was an idiot, clearly had not done the core fundamentals yet. You need to do the required stuff first. electives are for fourth year.

Now, to answer the OP......going to a DO school will limit you in difficult residencys (rads, Ortho, ENT, etc) Now I have friends in all of those, but they are rockstars. However, the ACGME-AOA match process and accreditation is all going to change in the next few years so dont hang your head on that. The bottom line is if you go to a US school and you work hard, get good grades, ABSOLUTELY take the USMLE and the COMLEX, and do well, your doors will remain open 95% of the time. I had friends match allo GS, Rads, ER, gas. If you get a 240 on the USMLE they dont care if you are a DO or an MD. that is my biggest advice. Take the USMLE even as a DO. Anyone who tells you you dont need it to match a competitive ACGME slot is misguided. There may be a few who slide by with good letters and a 700 on the COMLEX, but most will weed you out without the USMLE scores to compare to the MD applicants.

I do not regret going to NYCOM. The debt sucks, LI is expensive to live. but I got good training and I went to a newer AOA IM program and have done quite well and have a great Critical care hospitalist job lined up to start. Its much more about YOU and what YOU are willing to do to succeed then where you went to school.
 
Great insight. I have been accepted to DO schools. However, no love from MD. Therefore, it's a matter of banging head against the wall and reapplying for MD or taking the DO acceptance and hoping that I can still do what I want to do in medicine. Which could be something competitive since I'm looking at 250k+ debt and primary care reimbursement sucks.

You sir are either 1) a troll or b) an idiot.

You can match into any specialty you want to if you're a gunner (neurosurgery or derm is going to be difficult anywhere). Looks like you're out for the money and maybe you should study finance instead.
 
You sir are either 1) a troll or b) an idiot.

You can match into any specialty you want to if you're a gunner (neurosurgery or derm is going to be difficult anywhere). Looks like you're out for the money and maybe you should study finance instead.

Thanks for your judgement. Obviously, what you are saying is contrary to what others have said. I'm simply trying to maximize the opportunity to practice what I want. Keep options open.
 
Thanks for your judgement. Obviously, what you are saying is contrary to what others have said. I'm simply trying to maximize the opportunity to practice what I want. Keep options open.

yet listen to people who have been through it because half way through your first year you will likely realize that worrying about this is futile. you, along with every other student in med school says, "i'm going to be top 25% and get the super competitive specialty," and the reality is that 75% of those people are wrong. and you, along with every other student in med school says, "not me, I'm gonna be different." Catch my drift?

If you go to an MD school and graduate middle of your class, you aren't better off than DO school at the top of your class. If you go to CCOM and graduate in the bottom half, you aren't better than someone who graduated top at KYCOM. Largely, it doesn't matter which school you go to simply because you need to focus on where you would succeed better vs. the name of the institution. DMU is in my hometown with my wife and kids and I would succeed better there than if I went to Harvard. Your options will be open. If you turn down an acceptance to try again, it would be a stupid move but that is your choice. Just go to whatever school you love and do your best.
 
yet listen to people who have been through it because half way through your first year you will likely realize that worrying about this is futile. you, along with every other student in med school says, "i'm going to be top 25% and get the super competitive specialty," and the reality is that 75% of those people are wrong. and you, along with every other student in med school says, "not me, I'm gonna be different." Catch my drift?

If you go to an MD school and graduate middle of your class, you aren't better off than DO school at the top of your class. If you go to CCOM and graduate in the bottom half, you aren't better than someone who graduated top at KYCOM. Largely, it doesn't matter which school you go to simply because you need to focus on where you would succeed better vs. the name of the institution. DMU is in my hometown with my wife and kids and I would succeed better there than if I went to Harvard. Your options will be open. If you turn down an acceptance to try again, it would be a stupid move but that is your choice. Just go to whatever school you love and do your best.

Thanks! I agree that at the end of the day this is what it comes down to.
 
I am a NYCOM grad and soon to be IM attending. While I have no love lost for NYCOM, I would not recommend against them. I agree with jump, if you want flexibility they are not forgiving. they WANT you to rotate at their core sites. They WANT you to stay in NYC-SI-LI-bronx. They have a few satellite programs. A few of us spent alot of time in bingampton as we are from upstate. They also let me do almost my entire fourth year in the central NY-SYR-Albany area. I did 1/2 my third year in albany and 1/2 in NJ. However. MOST students dont have the family and financial restrictions I had and they can rotate anywhere. The NYCOM core sites are very good and most of them have residency programs. Barnabus NYC and NJ, Maimo, Lutheran, Coney, LIJ, NUMC...all these places have like 10 different residencies and many fellowships and they al prefer NYCOM grads. rotating there helps alot and inner NYC is a great training experience. SPend some time in the 130,000 yearly visit ED at barnabus in the bronx and you will get your mind blown.

ALso, I did have a third year elective at the end of the year. But personally, I dont think you need them. You need to do core IM, Surg, Peds, FP and OB before you start doing other stuff. I have worked with MS3s who want to do rads and he was on my service doing third year medicine near the end of the year and he was an idiot, clearly had not done the core fundamentals yet. You need to do the required stuff first. electives are for fourth year.

Now, to answer the OP......going to a DO school will limit you in difficult residencys (rads, Ortho, ENT, etc) Now I have friends in all of those, but they are rockstars. However, the ACGME-AOA match process and accreditation is all going to change in the next few years so dont hang your head on that. The bottom line is if you go to a US school and you work hard, get good grades, ABSOLUTELY take the USMLE and the COMLEX, and do well, your doors will remain open 95% of the time. I had friends match allo GS, Rads, ER, gas. If you get a 240 on the USMLE they dont care if you are a DO or an MD. that is my biggest advice. Take the USMLE even as a DO. Anyone who tells you you dont need it to match a competitive ACGME slot is misguided. There may be a few who slide by with good letters and a 700 on the COMLEX, but most will weed you out without the USMLE scores to compare to the MD applicants.

I do not regret going to NYCOM. The debt sucks, LI is expensive to live. but I got good training and I went to a newer AOA IM program and have done quite well and have a great Critical care hospitalist job lined up to start. Its much more about YOU and what YOU are willing to do to succeed then where you went to school.

Thanks for your response. Great insight.
 
I'd like to add that, usually, applying the second time is harder than the first time.

This is usually the case because admissions' committees will want to know how you improved during the last year and why you should be accepted now even though you have been denied once. You also lose one year of physician salary which seems a great concern for you. My bottom line is, unless you are gunning for one of the very top residencies I wouldn't be worried. Just look at the match list of the schools who accepted you and you will see what will be realistic for you.
 
You sir are either 1) a troll or b) an idiot.

You can match into any specialty you want to if you're a gunner (neurosurgery or derm is going to be difficult anywhere). Looks like you're out for the money and maybe you should study finance instead.

The point I was making to him with regards to odds reflects the mach statistics over the last several years. Not including the AOA which isn't exactly an even playing field, since 2007 there have been somewhere around 10 DOs to match ACGME derm, n.surg, plastics, and ortho anywhere . This isn't harvard derm we are talking about, this is the totality of these programs anywhere in the US across 6ish years. That is a gross under-representation. True, those programs are hard to get regardless of your situation, but stats like that can only arise in 1 of 2 conditions: Either a bias exists which makes matching harder or DO students simply are not capable of performing as well as MDs are on average across a very large sample size. Take your pick. I'm pretty sure it is the former. And per the PD survey (in which they comment on this subject specifically) there is no specialty, even FM, that is free of it. It is much less of an issue with primary care and IM, but even in those fields you will likely encounter programs that will not interview or rank you specifically because of the initials behind your name. Every match season numerous posters here make threads of similar accounts. I am not trying to overstate its prevalence, but calling someone else a troll or an idiot on the basis of sham-ass logic like "because plastics is hard for everyone" demonstrates an embarrassingly low level of understanding on the issue.

This is what I was conveying to the OP along with the message of "there are many more options to the less competitive fields than you are aware so don't think you need to go super competitive or bust".
 
The point I was making to him with regards to odds reflects the mach statistics over the last several years. Not including the AOA which isn't exactly an even playing field, since 2007 there have been somewhere around 10 DOs to match ACGME derm, n.surg, plastics, and ortho anywhere . This isn't harvard derm we are talking about, this is the totality of these programs anywhere in the US across 6ish years. That is a gross under-representation. True, those programs are hard to get regardless of your situation, but stats like that can only arise in 1 of 2 conditions: Either a bias exists which makes matching harder or DO students simply are not capable of performing as well as MDs are on average across a very large sample size. Take your pick. I'm pretty sure it is the former. And per the PD survey (in which they comment on this subject specifically) there is no specialty, even FM, that is free of it. It is much less of an issue with primary care and IM, but even in those fields you will likely encounter programs that will not interview or rank you specifically because of the initials behind your name. Every match season numerous posters here make threads of similar accounts. I am not trying to overstate its prevalence, but calling someone else a troll or an idiot on the basis of sham-ass logic like "because plastics is hard for everyone" demonstrates an embarrassingly low level of understanding on the issue.

This is what I was conveying to the OP along with the message of "there are many more options to the less competitive fields than you are aware so don't think you need to go super competitive or bust".

I'd really like to see the source for the above. I know it's not true for Orthopedics, in fact I want to say around 6-10 matched ACGME this year (when VERY few have the balls to skip AOA match in the first place). Plastics I believe, but I seriously doubt many even try to match this. MD schools usually have 1-2 Derm matches a year so with a probable lack of MD Derm apps from the DO side (once again, who has the balls to skip the AOA match?) I'd say around 10 matches isn't too terrible, especially when you look at the quality of some of the matches (Derm @ Mayo a few years ago). Fact is that every year some of the bias goes away and more and more PDs are becoming more accepting. I really believe that with the upcoming merger, you will see a much larger influx of DOs into those specialties simply bc there will be many more applying.
 
as stated in the post itself, it was in the match stats data put out by the NRMP every year. I am going off of my last readthrough so if they had a good year this time around... :shrug:
 
http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf

Keep in mind, there are roughly 20k MD grads and 5k DO grads every year, about half of which go AOA, so 22500 grads needing placed yearly. Ish. I'm just pulling from what I remember last time this came up. This goes back 5 years from 2012 meaning there are over 100,000 graduates accounted for.

Of these

4 DOs matched derm
3 matched n.surg
16 matched ortho *over 5 years* (so ~3/year)
0 matched ophtho
1 matched plastics.

So fine, double my number, ish. From 10ish, to 20ish, but that is out of about 100,000 total grads in the match which is why I said previously "either go AOA or choose something else". By the time the OP gets there, the AOA match may have reduced programs of these types or have MD availability as well.

You can rationalize it away however you would like, but the argument that "because these specialties are a minority among MDs it doesn't matter if DOs don't match well" is completely insane. DOs are minority-er :shrug:, and the point is made to demonstrate the bias that exists. Also, the only thing stopping DOs from applying to the ACGME is cost of applying. That will still be there post "merger". They don't have to decide which to stay in until after the interview trail. If you get a ton of interviews you are more likely to stay in it. If not you are more likely to pull out to the AOA.

I've been fair in my statements all along the way stating that there are those who don't experience it at all, and there are those who do. I am not saying it is a metaphysical certainty that you will experience discrimination based on your degree. But (also in the post you quoted), if you were to familiarize yourself with the PD survey you would know that the PDs themselves cite "US Allopathic graduate" as factoring into their decision and in many cases it ranks well above things like didactic grades. The fact that a single DO matched mayo a few years back and that it is still being touted somehow as the sole example of how bias doesnt exist does more to prove the point than to disprove it. That guy was a rockstar. If you can say with 100% certainty that you will also be a rockstar then no, there will be no bias against you (except for those PDs who openly admit they will not rank DOs....).

I can tell you this, as an MD graduate, the OP will never face discrimination for being a DO :shrug:. It is as simple as that. The honest answer to the OPs question is that it exists, and sometimes it is a hassle for people, and the hassle increases as you try to get into more and more competitive fields. I just can't tell you how irritating it is to see countless pre and current students spin their neural hamster wheels trying to rationalize this thing away when the simplest and truest answer is "stop worrying about a slight decrease in chance to match in something you very well likely won't want to do with your life anyways" :rolleyes: Family docs make plenty to pay off their debt. So what if you can't do it as fast as the beverly hills plastic surgeon or Oprah's next pet project? If you aren't convinced that you can dramatically improve your app and get into the MD school next year or convinced that you would rather not do medicine at all if you can't go to the MD Anderson neurosurgery program (if the even have one....) then take the DO acceptance because even though the figure for matching as a % of grads produced is lower, the vast majority of them still find jobs without issue.
 
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http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf

Keep in mind, there are roughly 20k MD grads and 5k DO grads every year, about half of which go AOA, so 22500 grads needing placed yearly. Ish. I'm just pulling from what I remember last time this came up. This goes back 5 years from 2012 meaning there are over 100,000 graduates accounted for.

Of these

4 DOs matched derm
3 matched n.surg
16 matched ortho *over 5 years* (so ~3/year)
0 matched ophtho
1 matched plastics.

So fine, double my number, ish. From 10ish, to 20ish, but that is out of about 100,000 total grads in the match which is why I said previously "either go AOA or choose something else". By the time the OP gets there, the AOA match may have reduced programs of these types or have MD availability as well.

You can rationalize it away however you would like, but the argument that "because these specialties are a minority among MDs it doesn't matter if DOs don't match well" is completely insane. DOs are minority-er :shrug:, and the point is made to demonstrate the bias that exists. Also, the only thing stopping DOs from applying to the ACGME is cost of applying. That will still be there post "merger". They don't have to decide which to stay in until after the interview trail. If you get a ton of interviews you are more likely to stay in it. If not you are more likely to pull out to the AOA.

I've been fair in my statements all along the way stating that there are those who don't experience it at all, and there are those who do. I am not saying it is a metaphysical certainty that you will experience discrimination based on your degree. But (also in the post you quoted), if you were to familiarize yourself with the PD survey you would know that the PDs themselves cite "US Allopathic graduate" as factoring into their decision and in many cases it ranks well above things like didactic grades. The fact that a single DO mathed mayo a few years back and that it is still being touted somehow as the sole example of how bias doesnt exist does more to prove the point than to disprove it. That guy was a rockstar. If you can say with 100% certainty that you will also be a rockstar then no, there will be no bias against you (except for those PDs who openly admit they will not rank DOs....).

I can tell you this, as an MD graduate, the OP will never face discrimination for being a DO :shrug:. It is as simple as that. The honest answer to the OPs question is that it exists, and sometimes it is a hassle for people, and the hassle increases as you try to get into more and more competitive fields. I just can't tell you how irritating it is to see countless pre and current students spin their neural hamster wheels trying to rationalize this thing away when the simplest and truest answer is "stop worrying about a slight decrease in chance to match in something you very well likely won't want to do with your life anyways" :rolleyes: Family docs make plenty to pay off their debt. So what if you can't do it as fast as the beverly hills plastic surgeon or Oprah's next pet project? If you aren't convinced that you can dramatically improve your app and get into the MD school next year or convinced that you would rather not do medicine at all if you can't go to the MD Anderson neurosurgery program (if the even have one....) then take the DO acceptance because even though the figure for matching as a % of grads produced is lower, the vast majority of them still find jobs without issue.

Wow! one of the most sensible responses I have read on sdn.
 
http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf

Keep in mind, there are roughly 20k MD grads and 5k DO grads every year, about half of which go AOA, so 22500 grads needing placed yearly. Ish. I'm just pulling from what I remember last time this came up. This goes back 5 years from 2012 meaning there are over 100,000 graduates accounted for.

Of these

4 DOs matched derm
3 matched n.surg
16 matched ortho *over 5 years* (so ~3/year)
0 matched ophtho
1 matched plastics.

So fine, double my number, ish. From 10ish, to 20ish, but that is out of about 100,000 total grads in the match which is why I said previously "either go AOA or choose something else". By the time the OP gets there, the AOA match may have reduced programs of these types or have MD availability as well.

You can rationalize it away however you would like, but the argument that "because these specialties are a minority among MDs it doesn't matter if DOs don't match well" is completely insane. DOs are minority-er :shrug:, and the point is made to demonstrate the bias that exists. Also, the only thing stopping DOs from applying to the ACGME is cost of applying. That will still be there post "merger". They don't have to decide which to stay in until after the interview trail. If you get a ton of interviews you are more likely to stay in it. If not you are more likely to pull out to the AOA.

I've been fair in my statements all along the way stating that there are those who don't experience it at all, and there are those who do. I am not saying it is a metaphysical certainty that you will experience discrimination based on your degree. But (also in the post you quoted), if you were to familiarize yourself with the PD survey you would know that the PDs themselves cite "US Allopathic graduate" as factoring into their decision and in many cases it ranks well above things like didactic grades. The fact that a single DO matched mayo a few years back and that it is still being touted somehow as the sole example of how bias doesnt exist does more to prove the point than to disprove it. That guy was a rockstar. If you can say with 100% certainty that you will also be a rockstar then no, there will be no bias against you (except for those PDs who openly admit they will not rank DOs....).

I can tell you this, as an MD graduate, the OP will never face discrimination for being a DO :shrug:. It is as simple as that. The honest answer to the OPs question is that it exists, and sometimes it is a hassle for people, and the hassle increases as you try to get into more and more competitive fields. I just can't tell you how irritating it is to see countless pre and current students spin their neural hamster wheels trying to rationalize this thing away when the simplest and truest answer is "stop worrying about a slight decrease in chance to match in something you very well likely won't want to do with your life anyways" :rolleyes: Family docs make plenty to pay off their debt. So what if you can't do it as fast as the beverly hills plastic surgeon or Oprah's next pet project? If you aren't convinced that you can dramatically improve your app and get into the MD school next year or convinced that you would rather not do medicine at all if you can't go to the MD Anderson neurosurgery program (if the even have one....) then take the DO acceptance because even though the figure for matching as a % of grads produced is lower, the vast majority of them still find jobs without issue.


So you're saying there's a chance!
 
Basically, it seems if you want a competitive specialty, you have to match it with the AOA. However, the AOA doesn't have very many of these compared to ACGME, so it's very competitive.

That's not to say a vast majority of MDs don't have trouble matching the competitive specialties. However, relatively, they have less trouble than DOs. However, DOs have AOA to have a shot. If not, they can go for non competitive specialties with ACGME and can find a place if they have decent stats.
 
I'd like to add that, usually, applying the second time is harder than the first time.

This is usually the case because admissions' committees will want to know how you improved during the last year and why you should be accepted now even though you have been denied once. You also lose one year of physician salary which seems a great concern for you. My bottom line is, unless you are gunning for one of the very top residencies I wouldn't be worried. Just look at the match list of the schools who accepted you and you will see what will be realistic for you.
100% agreed here.. Let's see how many times did I apply to MD school and not get in -- 3 (talk about opportunity cost!)

Its because I was a total ***** and thought I was hot stuff, applying to big name schools - where in reality I could have gone to my local state MD school (a 31 MCAT and 3.7 sGPA not too bad). I was such a pathetic loser. It took 3 rejections, 6 years of working in the "real world" to humble myself.

So yes you could say I wasnt "smart" enough to get into MD school, no problem there. I had to learn some hard lessons. I'm honest and realistic enough to know my own stupid mistakes.

Now i've matched ortho. Life turned out well. I'll be honest with myself, not sure that at a younger age my attitude would have let me excel like I did these last four years. Maybe even being in an allopathic program would have hampered me. I for one am so glad I went osteopathic.

Take the DO spot!!! start moving forward, work hard and doors will open. Yes some doors will automatically be closed as sylvanthus said.. accept and move on. You will have a good solid job in high demand.. Just find something you love during your third year and work your arse off to get it. Most people switch their though process during clincals anyway, maybe you wont want a "highly competitive" spot.

Just so you guys don't rag on me too hard : )
usmle step 1 249
usmle step 2 253

I guess I turned out ok
 
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100% agreed here.. Let's see how many times did I apply to MD school and not get in -- 3 (talk about opportunity cost!)

Its because I was a total ***** and thought I was hot stuff, applying to big name schools - where in reality I could have gone to my local state MD school (a 31 MCAT and 3.7 sGPA not too bad). I was such a pathetic loser. It took 3 rejections, 6 years of working in the "real world" to humble myself.

So yes you could say I wasnt "smart" enough to get into MD school, no problem there. I had to learn some hard lessons. I'm honest and realistic enough to know my own stupid mistakes.

Now i've matched ortho. Life turned out well. I'll be honest with myself, not sure that at a younger age my attitude would have let me excel like I did these last four years. Maybe even being in an allopathic program would have hampered me. I for one am so glad I went osteopathic.

Take the DO spot!!! start moving forward, work hard and doors will open. Yes some doors will automatically be closed as sylvanthus said.. accept and move on. You will have a good solid job in high demand.. Just find something you love during your third year and work your arse off to get it. Most people switch their though process during clincals anyway, maybe you wont want a "highly competitive" spot.

Just so you guys don't rag on me too hard : )
usmle step 1 249
usmle step 2 253

I guess I turned out ok

Nice!
 
...
Now i've matched ortho.
I guess I turned out ok

I'll go with yes, with the numbers to prove it :)

Clinical Practice
Low(25th Percentile) Median High (75th Percentile)

Starting Salaries $378,000 $412,544 $500,000
1 - 2 Years in Specialty N/A $408,878 N/A
All Physicians $400,389 $520,119 $682,541
 
http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf

Keep in mind, there are roughly 20k MD grads and 5k DO grads every year, about half of which go AOA, so 22500 grads needing placed yearly. Ish. I'm just pulling from what I remember last time this came up. This goes back 5 years from 2012 meaning there are over 100,000 graduates accounted for.

Of these

4 DOs matched derm
3 matched n.surg
16 matched ortho *over 5 years* (so ~3/year)
0 matched ophtho
1 matched plastics.

So fine, double my number, ish. From 10ish, to 20ish, but that is out of about 100,000 total grads in the match which is why I said previously "either go AOA or choose something else". By the time the OP gets there, the AOA match may have reduced programs of these types or have MD availability as well.

You can rationalize it away however you would like, but the argument that "because these specialties are a minority among MDs it doesn't matter if DOs don't match well" is completely insane. DOs are minority-er :shrug:, and the point is made to demonstrate the bias that exists. Also, the only thing stopping DOs from applying to the ACGME is cost of applying. That will still be there post "merger". They don't have to decide which to stay in until after the interview trail. If you get a ton of interviews you are more likely to stay in it. If not you are more likely to pull out to the AOA.

I've been fair in my statements all along the way stating that there are those who don't experience it at all, and there are those who do. I am not saying it is a metaphysical certainty that you will experience discrimination based on your degree. But (also in the post you quoted), if you were to familiarize yourself with the PD survey you would know that the PDs themselves cite "US Allopathic graduate" as factoring into their decision and in many cases it ranks well above things like didactic grades. The fact that a single DO matched mayo a few years back and that it is still being touted somehow as the sole example of how bias doesnt exist does more to prove the point than to disprove it. That guy was a rockstar. If you can say with 100% certainty that you will also be a rockstar then no, there will be no bias against you (except for those PDs who openly admit they will not rank DOs....).

I can tell you this, as an MD graduate, the OP will never face discrimination for being a DO :shrug:. It is as simple as that. The honest answer to the OPs question is that it exists, and sometimes it is a hassle for people, and the hassle increases as you try to get into more and more competitive fields. I just can't tell you how irritating it is to see countless pre and current students spin their neural hamster wheels trying to rationalize this thing away when the simplest and truest answer is "stop worrying about a slight decrease in chance to match in something you very well likely won't want to do with your life anyways" :rolleyes: Family docs make plenty to pay off their debt. So what if you can't do it as fast as the beverly hills plastic surgeon or Oprah's next pet project? If you aren't convinced that you can dramatically improve your app and get into the MD school next year or convinced that you would rather not do medicine at all if you can't go to the MD Anderson neurosurgery program (if the even have one....) then take the DO acceptance because even though the figure for matching as a % of grads produced is lower, the vast majority of them still find jobs without issue.

Well said, I definitely wasn't trying to say that their isn't bias. I was just saying that I think your facts weren't 100% correct. I'm still confused about some of them, as I know they aren't true. There have been several ophtho's that have matched in the last 5 years, definitely more than the Ortho matches so idk where the zero comes from (apologize if I'm being ******ed). Also unless I'm mistaken, that data doesn't account for this years match correct? I do agree with your post that some bias does exist; personally i liken it to the bias exists against a low tier MD school (admittedly, DO bias is probably worse). Definitely catch your drift though. Like a previous poster said, I don't think it matters. If you work your butt off you can GT where you want to be no matter what- some of it might be harder though.
 
No doubt in my mind there is still bias toward DO's in the upper echelons of medicine. It is slowly eroding but it is still there. By the time the OP graduates we are going to have one match. Theoretically it won't matter which school you graduate from but I believe in practice we will still see MD friendly programs and DO friendly programs. It's not like there is going to be any forced integration or anything.

In the end. Go where you will be happy and where you will get in. If you can only be happy being an MD but can't get into anything but DO then I suggest you re-examine your priorities. I went to a DO school mostly because of proximity to my friends and family. Bias or not, this was the right choice for me. YOU (and only you) need to determine what is the right choice for you.

Survivor DO
 
Well said, I definitely wasn't trying to say that their isn't bias. I was just saying that I think your facts weren't 100% correct. I'm still confused about some of them, as I know they aren't true. There have been several ophtho's that have matched in the last 5 years, definitely more than the Ortho matches so idk where the zero comes from (apologize if I'm being ******ed). Also unless I'm mistaken, that data doesn't account for this years match correct? I do agree with your post that some bias does exist; personally i liken it to the bias exists against a low tier MD school (admittedly, DO bias is probably worse). Definitely catch your drift though. Like a previous poster said, I don't think it matters. If you work your butt off you can GT where you want to be no matter what- some of it might be harder though.

unless optho has a secondary match system (and it might... like urology, but I'm not sure) then you are probably thinking AOA matches. That document is produced by the NRMP on the ACGME match. So it is accurate with regards to the ACGME, but does not report on other matches like the one out in cali or the urology match (I don't know the specifics about the minor match services). And no, this has up to 2012. The 2013 data will be released shortly. This document is mostly good for trends.
 
NYCOM has one elective in the third year, and all of the the hospitals I listed above are core hospitals affiliated with the school. You're entitled to your opinion, I just wanted to set the record straight.

I completely disagree. NYCOM has no electives in the third year, only cores at there selected from their hospital (not a great list of hospitals to choose from). And they will not budge from their policies in order to help the student, they only care about their own rules since they have so many students.

Fourth year, however, you do get to choose but what is the point if you can't rotate through electives in third year to get a flavor of what you want to do for the rest of your career.

Again, I cannot reiterate, do not go to NYCOM if you want flexibility in your scheduling.

I have a third year elective scheduled for this upcoming June as a matter of fact. No barriers whatsoever, and its at an academic institution outside of NYCOMEC. Get your facts straight before posting such baloney.
 
Ya San Francisco Match or whatever the heck its called.

That would make sense, I know for a fact that ophtho matches several DOs a year. They even had a thread with 3 DOs talking about there experienced when they matched (I believe it was 2010).
 
That would make sense, I know for a fact that ophtho matches several DOs a year. They even had a thread with 3 DOs talking about there experienced when they matched (I believe it was 2010).

Two of my classmates matched MD ophtho this year and we are a new, relatively non-respected DO school.
 
100% agreed here.. Let's see how many times did I apply to MD school and not get in -- 3 (talk about opportunity cost!)

Its because I was a total ***** and thought I was hot stuff, applying to big name schools - where in reality I could have gone to my local state MD school (a 31 MCAT and 3.7 sGPA not too bad). I was such a pathetic loser. It took 3 rejections, 6 years of working in the "real world" to humble myself.

So yes you could say I wasnt "smart" enough to get into MD school, no problem there. I had to learn some hard lessons. I'm honest and realistic enough to know my own stupid mistakes.

Now i've matched ortho. Life turned out well. I'll be honest with myself, not sure that at a younger age my attitude would have let me excel like I did these last four years. Maybe even being in an allopathic program would have hampered me. I for one am so glad I went osteopathic.

Take the DO spot!!! start moving forward, work hard and doors will open. Yes some doors will automatically be closed as sylvanthus said.. accept and move on. You will have a good solid job in high demand.. Just find something you love during your third year and work your arse off to get it. Most people switch their though process during clincals anyway, maybe you wont want a "highly competitive" spot.

Just so you guys don't rag on me too hard : )
usmle step 1 249
usmle step 2 253

I guess I turned out ok

Wow, quite a testimony here! Thanks for your honesty! I, too had a 31R on the MCAT but accepted a DO school offer. I'm happy I did!
 
rotated with a few yakima guys gunning for ortho.. good guys and bright. I guess one decided to go OB/gyn after his audition rotations (still dont quite understand what happened) and the other matched henry ford I think. They had good things to say about Yakima, hope its true???
 
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