DNP or Resident

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mig26x said:
we will get the shaft but ultimately the patients are the one's that are going to suffer the consequences.

when you have only 50% of the class that represents the DNP movement pass a test that tends to image USMLE step 3, which we all know is the easiest step, its a little bit worrisome.
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Wonder how they would do on step 1 or step 2...:laugh:

foreverLaur said:
It would have made sense if you would have known me back then. I was lazy and unfocused and I didn't care. I made fun of all my friends going to nursing school. I thought it was stupid and a joke. I had zero desire to go into nursing. I was just insanely bored in high school and wanted a way to get out of going. I figured the LPN classes would be as close as I could get to meshing up with my medical school dreams. I have slept through my "LPN" program and didn't retain anything. I had no desire to work as a nurse. None. I was lazy and unfocused when I was younger. I thought I was on top of the world and better than everyone else. Going to a university will shut someone up there really quick. I realized I had a LONG way to go and A LOT to learn.
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What are you talking about?
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People like to accuse me of lying regardless of what I say. I did a LPN program during high school, but don't consider myself as having gone to nursing school (for reasons listed in my previous post).
 
"On Wednesday, the Council for the Advancement of Comprehensive Care (CACC) and the National Board of Medical Examiners (NBME) announced in this press release that they had developed a certification exam for the doctorate of nursing practice. The fact that this test is based on the medical licensing exam has elicited a flurry of responses from NPs, many of whom are concerned that the exam will cause confusion about the difference between NPs and physicians, and potentially cast NPs as "aspiring physicians."

I spoke with Mary Mundinger, who is a member of the CACC and the dean of the Columbia University School of Nursing (which has a DNP program), about the exam. Munginder stressed during our interview that the exam is not meant to make a DNP more like a physician. She said the following:

I don’t think the DNP is a goal to be more like a physician; what we are doing with this exam is testing the medical knowledge that an advanced-practice nurse at the doctoral level has to achieve to give comprehensive care."

http://community.advanceweb.com/blo...the-dnp-exam-talking-with-mary-mundinger.aspx
 
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zenman said:
"On Wednesday, the Council for the Advancement of Comprehensive Care (CACC) and the National Board of Medical Examiners (NBME) announced in this press release that they had developed a certification exam for the doctorate of nursing practice. The fact that this test is based on the medical licensing exam has elicited a flurry of responses from NPs, many of whom are concerned that the exam will cause confusion about the difference between NPs and physicians, and potentially cast NPs as "aspiring physicians."

I spoke with Mary Mundinger, who is a member of the CACC and the dean of the Columbia University School of Nursing (which has a DNP program), about the exam. Munginder stressed during our interview that the exam is not meant to make a DNP more like a physician. She said the following:

I don’t think the DNP is a goal to be more like a physician; what we are doing with this exam is testing the medical knowledge that an advanced-practice nurse at the doctoral level has to achieve to give comprehensive care."

http://community.advanceweb.com/blo...the-dnp-exam-talking-with-mary-mundinger.aspx
Click to expand...


I agree with most of the comments here.

I am currently a PA, and right now am working in a small rural ER here in Minnesota that has made a lot of news lately, as we are solely staffed by PA's with backup physicians on call if we get in over our heads.

I am also completing a Doctoral degree in Organizational Leadership and Health Policy. I have no plans to call myself "doctor" in the clinical setting, I am a PA, NOT an MD. I can safely say that, after 10+ years of doing this, and after being a navy corpsmen back during the first party in the sandbox over there, that I feel like I can see and care for about 85-90% of what presents to an ED on my own. BUT, not 100%. I don't ever support completely independent practice for ANY NP or PA.

From a policy perspective, this whole DNP thing makes little sense. We have the largest generation in the history of our country about to retire, and are facing looming primary care provider shortages. This will decrease enrollment of many potential RN's, and especially those that might be likely to practice in rural and underserved areas, where we have the greatest need. The added expenses of completing a doctoral degree will ensure that DNP graduates will seek out better paying opportunities in more attractive locales in order to pay down student loan debt.

I feel that there are really, at least from a health policy perspective, only two reasons to ever change an entry level degree for a health profession.

A. DOES it increase quality of care provided to patients?

and B. WILL it increase access to care for patients?

In all likelihood, it will decrease access for patients, by decreasing enrollment of RN's, and especially those likely to practice in high "need" areas, like rural and inner city primary care.

There have been no studies done showing any increase in quality of care provided, which leaves us with no credible reason for doing this.

ALSO, I am completely and utterly opposed to any, and I mean, ANY clinical degree completion "online". WHAT A JOKE! It is one thing to complete an academic degree, or a research degree like a PhD online. But to complete a clinical degree online with patients care in the balance is risky, and imho, unacceptable.
 
zenman said:
"On Wednesday, the Council for the Advancement of Comprehensive Care (CACC) and the National Board of Medical Examiners (NBME) announced in this press release that they had developed a certification exam for the doctorate of nursing practice. The fact that this test is based on the medical licensing exam has elicited a flurry of responses from NPs, many of whom are concerned that the exam will cause confusion about the difference between NPs and physicians, and potentially cast NPs as "aspiring physicians."

I spoke with Mary Mundinger, who is a member of the CACC and the dean of the Columbia University School of Nursing (which has a DNP program), about the exam. Munginder stressed during our interview that the exam is not meant to make a DNP more like a physician. She said the following:

I don’t think the DNP is a goal to be more like a physician; what we are doing with this exam is testing the medical knowledge that an advanced-practice nurse at the doctoral level has to achieve to give comprehensive care."

http://community.advanceweb.com/blo...the-dnp-exam-talking-with-mary-mundinger.aspx
Click to expand...

But I thought nursing was a distinct profession from medicine. This seems to say that these advanced-practice nurses are practicing medicine. :confused:
 
I'll make this easy.

I will never hire a DNP and I will go out of my way to make sure other doctors don't hire DNP's. I will only hire NP's and PA's. The DNP is a joke. If you want to be a doctor, apply to medical school. Thanks for your time and cooperation.
 
wire said:
I'll make this easy.

I will never hire a DNP and I will go out of my way to make sure other doctors don't hire DNP's. I will only hire NP's and PA's. The DNP is a joke. If you want to be a doctor, apply to medical school. Thanks for your time and cooperation.
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I second that!!
 
I retract my previous statement. I will only hire PA's.
 
wire said:
I'll make this easy.

I will never hire a DNP and I will go out of my way to make sure other doctors don't hire DNP's. I will only hire PA's. The DNP is a joke. If you want to be a doctor, apply to medical school. Thanks for your time and cooperation.
Click to expand...

I agree. I will only hire PA's.
 
physasst said:
From a policy perspective, this whole DNP thing makes little sense. We have the largest generation in the history of our country about to retire, and are facing looming primary care provider shortages. This will decrease enrollment of many potential RN's, and especially those that might be likely to practice in rural and underserved areas, where we have the greatest need. The added expenses of completing a doctoral degree will ensure that DNP graduates will seek out better paying opportunities in more attractive locales in order to pay down student loan debt.

I feel that there are really, at least from a health policy perspective, only two reasons to ever change an entry level degree for a health profession.

A. DOES it increase quality of care provided to patients?

and B. WILL it increase access to care for patients?

In all likelihood, it will decrease access for patients, by decreasing enrollment of RN's, and especially those likely to practice in high "need" areas, like rural and inner city primary care.
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:thumbup:. Totally agree. We need RN's! Not DNPs!
 
I dont mind if they get a DNP to advance in their nurse profession or to be able to teach more advance nurse classes, but to practice medicine independently w/o supervision? come on!!! We residents cant see pt w/o supervision why would someone who didn't go to medical school should be able to do so?

I wish everyone would take a look at the curriculum for the DNP, its a joke. No clinical classes.

I feel bad for patients already.
 
mig26x said:
I wish everyone would take a look at the curriculum for the DNP, its a joke. No clinical classes.
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No clinical classes? Where do you see that? Are you taking a look at the curriculum?
 
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U-Pitt has a DNP 'with a leadership focus' here is my contribution... (if I didn't know it was a DNP.. I would assume is was a MN in nursing administration... or even a MHA with a nursing focus....).. once again I'm an advocate for the implementation of a DNP just not an advocate for the current implementation... HUGE variance among schools, no outcome based standards..., no method to conduct a true standardized test that validates the clinician.

Fall Semester (Year 1) NURSP 2061 — Organizational & Management Theory
NURSP 2075 — Introduction to Nursing Informatics
NUR 2900 — Translating Knowledge in Action: the Basic Science of Care
NUR 2011 — Applied Statistics for Evidence-Based Practice
Spring Semester (Year 1)
NUR 2010 —Health Promotion and Disease Prevention in Culturally Diverse Populations
NUR 2000 — Research for Evidence Based Practice I
NURSP 2090 — Health Care Outcomes
NURSP 2091 — Financial Management for Health Care Leaders
Summer Semester (Year 1)
NUR 2007 — Research for Evidence Based Practice II
NUR 2092 — Leadership Development
NURSP 2372 —Using Data to Drive Decisions
Fall Semester (Year 2)
HSADM 2135 — Health Policy
HPM 2012 — Financial Management Foundations in Health Care and Public Health
BOAH 2411 — Human Resources Competitive Advantage
NURSP 2373 — Residence (Master's)
Spring Semester (Year 2)
NUR 3092 — Leadership in Complex Systems
NUR 3094 — Evidence Based Management for Quality Improvement
PIA 2170 — Management of Non-Profit organizations
BCHS 2563 — Community Health Assessment
Summer Semester (Year 2)
NUR 2830 —Advanced Leadership in Clinical Practice
NUR 3096 — Clinical Systems Analysis and Design
EPIDEM 2110 — Principles of Epidemiology
Fall Semester (Year 3)
HCPM 2150 — Strategic Management of Health Service Organizations
HPM 2125 — Health Economics
NUR 3050 or NUR 3052 — Grant Writing or Manuscript Development
NURSP XXXX— Residency (Doctoral)
Spring Semester (Year 3)
NURSP XXXX — Residency II (Doctoral)
NUR 3036 — Capstone Project
NUR 3037— Capstone Clinical
TOTAL CREDITS: 81
 
Not surprisingly, the nurses are lying about the DNP exam in their propaganda and once again the ASA is taking the charge to respond:

Just as we feared, ABCC’s statement below equates the DNP exam to Step 3 of the United States Medical Licensing Examination (USMLE), which not only jeopardizes patient safety by misleading patients to believe that DNPs are equivalent to physicians, but it also minimizes the physician-patient relationship.

The ABCC exam was comparable in content, similar in format and measured the same set of competencies and applied similar performance standards as Step 3 of the United States Medical Licensing Examination, which is administered to physicians as one component of qualifying for licensure​

NBME assured the medical community that it would address any instance of misrepresentation to the public of equivalency and that NBME’s contract to supply such questions to ABCC would terminate due to misrepresentation. Moreover, NBME’s rationale for its involvement in the DNP certification as outlined in the white paper, “NBME Development of a Certifying Examination for Doctors of Nursing Practice” supports this commitment made to the medical community. Specifically,

The DNP certifying examination is not designed to replicate the USMLE assessment for medical licensure. It does not include the in-depth assessments of fundamental science, clinical diagnosis, and clinical skills that are provided through USMLE Step 1, Step 2 CK, and Step 2 CS. Similarly, the training leading to the DNP degree is substantially different from the educational experiences that result in the MD or DO degrees. The context and the scope of a DNP certifying examination is materially different from the context and scope of the USMLE.​

You can sample some of the DNP exam questions here. I installed the software and did the questions. It's not even close in difficulty with the USMLE steps.
 
4thelonghaul said:
U-Pitt has a DNP 'with a leadership focus' here is my contribution... (if I didn't know it was a DNP.. I would assume is was a MN in nursing administration... or even a MHA with a nursing focus....).. once again I'm an advocate for the implementation of a DNP just not an advocate for the current implementation... HUGE variance among schools, no outcome based standards..., no method to conduct a true standardized test that validates the clinician.

Fall Semester (Year 1) NURSP 2061 — Organizational & Management Theory
NURSP 2075 — Introduction to Nursing Informatics
NUR 2900 — Translating Knowledge in Action: the Basic Science of Care
NUR 2011 — Applied Statistics for Evidence-Based Practice
Spring Semester (Year 1)
NUR 2010 —Health Promotion and Disease Prevention in Culturally Diverse Populations
NUR 2000 — Research for Evidence Based Practice I
NURSP 2090 — Health Care Outcomes
NURSP 2091 — Financial Management for Health Care Leaders
Summer Semester (Year 1)
NUR 2007 — Research for Evidence Based Practice II
NUR 2092 — Leadership Development
NURSP 2372 —Using Data to Drive Decisions
Fall Semester (Year 2)
HSADM 2135 — Health Policy
HPM 2012 — Financial Management Foundations in Health Care and Public Health
BOAH 2411 — Human Resources Competitive Advantage
NURSP 2373 — Residence (Master's)
Spring Semester (Year 2)
NUR 3092 — Leadership in Complex Systems
NUR 3094 — Evidence Based Management for Quality Improvement
PIA 2170 — Management of Non-Profit organizations
BCHS 2563 — Community Health Assessment
Summer Semester (Year 2)
NUR 2830 —Advanced Leadership in Clinical Practice
NUR 3096 — Clinical Systems Analysis and Design
EPIDEM 2110 — Principles of Epidemiology
Fall Semester (Year 3)
HCPM 2150 — Strategic Management of Health Service Organizations
HPM 2125 — Health Economics
NUR 3050 or NUR 3052 — Grant Writing or Manuscript Development
NURSP XXXX— Residency (Doctoral)
Spring Semester (Year 3)
NURSP XXXX — Residency II (Doctoral)
NUR 3036 — Capstone Project
NUR 3037— Capstone Clinical
TOTAL CREDITS: 81
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I am confused, I thought the DNP was a degree like the MS or PhD. Has something changed and the DNP is now a NP curriculum?
 
Here is another DNP curriculum (from Case Western Reserve University) with no clinical component. Note, this is also the school that has a "direct-entry" DNP program for non-nurses that leads to a DNP in 39 months with more than 50% coursework available online.

REQUIRED

NUND 450
Applied Statistics
3 cr
NUND 504
Nursing Theory
3 cr
NUND 506
Leadership in Organizations & Systems
4 cr
NUND 508
Health Policy Development & Implementation
3 cr
NUND 530
Research Principles & Methods
3 cr
NUND 531
Approach to Practice Focused Res
3 cr
NUND 610
Translating Evidence into Nursing Practice
3 cr
NUND 611
Practicum
2 cr
NUND 619
Proposal Development
2 cr
NUND 620
Scholarly Project
3 cr
EDUCATIONAL LEADERSHIP TRACK

NUND 509
Curriculum and Instruction
3 cr
NUND 609
Theoretical Foundations of Testing & Evaluation
2 cr
PRACTICE LEADERSHIP TRACK

NUND 507
Management for Advance Practice
3 cr
NUND 607
Advanced Leadership & Management
2 cr
 
prairiedog said:
I am confused, I thought the DNP was a degree like the MS or PhD. Has something changed and the DNP is now a NP curriculum?
Click to expand...

The DNP is supposed to be a "practice doctorate" (they are trying to avoid clinical doctorate now) for advanced practice nurses. APNs include CNS, NP, CRNA and CNM. However a number of programs have seized on this to make a "practice doctorate" for managers (why shouldn't they be doctors too?). There is a paralell masters called the clinical nurse leader that does what CNS does in states where its not an APN. Ie excellence in clinical nursing at the bedside. There are now DNP programs that take the CNL to the doctorate. Just to make things more confusing.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
America say hello to your future "doctors", while a medical resident works in avg 70-80 hours per week of continous clinical exposure ( and dont forget those 4 years called medical school) this is the curriculum of the new doctorate that will help nurses practice solo:

say hello!!!!

REQUIRED

NUND 450
Applied Statistics
3 cr
NUND 504
Nursing Theory
3 cr
NUND 506
Leadership in Organizations & Systems
4 cr
NUND 508
Health Policy Development & Implementation
3 cr
NUND 530
Research Principles & Methods
3 cr
NUND 531
Approach to Practice Focused Res
3 cr
NUND 610
Translating Evidence into Nursing Practice
3 cr
NUND 611
Practicum
2 cr
NUND 619
Proposal Development
2 cr
NUND 620
Scholarly Project
3 cr
EDUCATIONAL LEADERSHIP TRACK

NUND 509
Curriculum and Instruction
3 cr
NUND 609
Theoretical Foundations of Testing & Evaluation
2 cr
PRACTICE LEADERSHIP TRACK

NUND 507
Management for Advance Practice
3 cr
NUND 607
Advanced Leadership & Management
2 cr
MathTeacher is offline Report Post Reply With Quote
 
That MIG26 is from U penn - a reputable nursing institution... (sigh). Once again I support the implementation of a DNP just not the current implementation.
I loved the post (i think from David... on a different forum) discussing how the DNP testing agency was actually not very third party but a mundinger derivative/led group.
 
Drexel University in Philadelphia is another college where you can earn the DNP (or DrNP as they call it) with just one 3-credit clinical course in the entire program.

http://www.drexel.edu/cnhp/drnp_program/curriculum.asp

Every random program I'm googling appears to have either zero or 3-6 credits of clinicals and 40-plus credits on online fluff. The question might be, what programs do include a substantial clinical requirement?
 
In all fairness the DrNP is another nursing doctorate - but it is distinctly not a DNP.
There are multiple ways to become a doctor.. doctor nurse.

taken from:
http://www.drexel.edu/cnhp/drnp_program/essential_facts.asp

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]IV. Is the Drexel DrNP like the DNP programs that are forming around the country?.[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
No, the Drexel ‘DrNP' is not a ‘DNP'. The DNP is a professional doctorate and it does not require the dissertation. The Drexel DrNP is a hybrid academic doctorate (instead of a professional doctorate) and we believe the Drexel DrNP degree will give the graduate more career options..


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]IX. What makes the Drexel DrNP unique?.[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
First, while our program is the second DrNP in the country, it is the first clinical research doctor of nursing practice. Our program has a heavy technology focus and all students are supplied with high-tech PDAs for use in their two doctoral practica. Our students will also twice attend an intensive one week residency each summer where a Clinical Scholar-in-Residence will network with DrNP students..
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]X. Why did Drexel decide to develop this unique degree and not the DNP?.[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
At Drexel, we believe in innovation and our faculty is committed to clinical practice excellence. We wanted to create a doctoral degree that would develop clinical scholars who could make a major impact on nursing practice, but who could also contribute to nursing science knowledge development. This program was designed for the working adult who wants a rigorous, reputable doctorate that offers outstanding career advancement and the skills to engage in practical clinical scholarship. While we believe the DNP has value, it is a professional doctorate, and graduates with this degree will likely not be eligible for tenure-track faculty positions in most universities. Drexel wanted to prepare our highly educated doctoral graduates for as many diverse career options as possible..
 
The heck with it. If I finish my degree, it's gonna be on my own dime, and it's gonna be in something that really interests me. Maybe music. Yeah, it will be pretty useless, but it will be mine, and it won't be a joke like this stuff.

:rolleyes: and :confused: at what happened to the nursing profession.
 
Somebody email that bitch Mary Mundinger at columbia and let her know that her little DNPs all choked on the watered down step 3 exam.

I'd love to see her lie and try to spin her way out of that one!
 
I think Mundinger is aware.... since she is is one of the 5 board members that presides over the newly formed American Board of Comprehensive Care which administered the test.... and since she is the Dean of Columbia University which had the first batch of students run through the test... but great input 'engineer'.
 
MathTeacher said:
Drexel University in Philadelphia is another college where you can earn the DNP (or DrNP as they call it) with just one 3-credit clinical course in the entire program.

http://www.drexel.edu/cnhp/drnp_program/curriculum.asp

Every random program I'm googling appears to have either zero or 3-6 credits of clinicals and 40-plus credits on online fluff. The question might be, what programs do include a substantial clinical requirement?
Click to expand...


the answer is nothing and that;s why we as physicians,residents and medical students should fight this, this people want to become "doctors" the easy, very easy way.

how can you compare 4 years of med school and 3-5 of residency working 70-80 hours per week with a nursing degree and this joke of a DNP that doesnt even have 6 credits of clinical experience????
 
Don't forget to include that the person leading the DNP (mundinger) is also a board member of the committee that conducts the test that essentially validates them as competent at whichever level they create/establish for practice and whichever level they create/establish.
 
4thelonghaul said:
Don't forget to include that the person leading the DNP (mundinger) is also a board member of the committee that conducts the test that essentially validates them as competent at whichever level they create/establish for practice and whichever level they create/establish.
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You have to hand it to her, though. She is good; a one woman show pushing her agenda. There aren't a lot of people out there who would have the guts to try and fool the public into thinking that this crap degree would be the equivalent of an MD/DO and possibly be able to pull it off legislatively. She may be the mother of the anti-christ. I'll have to dust off my Bible and read up on this-- is it possible the anti-christ is born of a nurse practitioner with a PhD?
 
core0 said:
The DNP is supposed to be a "practice doctorate" (they are trying to avoid clinical doctorate now) for advanced practice nurses. APNs include CNS, NP, CRNA and CNM. However a number of programs have seized on this to make a "practice doctorate" for managers (why shouldn't they be doctors too?). There is a paralell masters called the clinical nurse leader that does what CNS does in states where its not an APN. Ie excellence in clinical nursing at the bedside. There are now DNP programs that take the CNL to the doctorate. Just to make things more confusing.

David Carpenter, PA-C
Click to expand...

Thus, if I understand you correctly, various nurses are seeking the DNP, (NP, CRNA, CNS). However, only those with an advanced practice degree will be seeing patients. Those managers or clinical nurse leaders with a DNP cannot legally see patients like an advanced practice nurse. Simply having a DNP will not make these graduates eligible to take a NP certification exam. Appears as if many of the posters equate the DNP to the NP, suggesting there will be NPs with 6 or less clinical credits practicing. In reality, the DNP is a degree not a license or certification to see patients.
 
prairiedog said:
Thus, if I understand you correctly, various nurses are seeking the DNP, (NP, CRNA, CNS). However, only those with an advanced practice degree will be seeing patients. Those managers or clinical nurse leaders with a DNP cannot legally see patients like an advanced practice nurse. Simply having a DNP will not make these graduates eligible to take a NP certification exam. Appears as if many of the posters equate the DNP to the NP, suggesting there will be NPs with 6 or less clinical credits practicing. In reality, the DNP is a degree not a license or certification to see patients.
Click to expand...

This is part of the problem. It tries to be too many things, without being one thing at an acceptable level.

Here are two posts I wrote earlier in the thread that address this issue:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not against the DNP if it actually meets the rigors and expectations that go along with doctoral training, though stringing together some online classes that are barely related and are not even remotely clinical....that doesn't pass the smell test. If a university put together a residential based program that focuses on integrating advanced clinical training with classes that reflect a greater depth of applied theory, then I'd be much more apt to give the DNP a chance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------



----------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems like most of the programs I've seen (in addition to the ones posted on here) have quite a bit of "filler". I had an earlier post that broke down my argument, but the gist of it was this:

If you want to do hospital administration, get an MBA/MPH.
If you want to teach, get a Ph.D.
If you want to complete more advanced training, go do more clinical work.

The degree's only purpose is for inflation.

I take offense to a cluster of ill-conceived classes being considered doctoral-level, as it cheapens every other doctoral degree. It is suppose to be the capstone of a person's education....and not something that can be done at a person's leisure, with mostly filler classes. And then there is the whole, "you can do everything online!" Sad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
The Pearson report assumes accurate reporting and integrity of the National Practitioner Data Bank (NPDB) to make its claims

The problem is that NP's are underreporting their adverse events to the NPDB.

The Pearson report uses flawed data to make its case. Yet, that won't stop the nurses from pushing this analysis on lawmakers and the public to advance their agenda. Again, nursing uses propaganda and lies as its tools to get what it wants. When will somebody in medicine stand up to this crap and say enough is enough?!
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
I originally had "Mundinger", but it sounded a bit curt since I don't know her in a personal capacity, so I added the Ms. I didn't think more than that about Ms. v. Dr, etc.
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Now, now. You know the appropriate title is "HRH." Stop playing dumb.
 
fab4fan said:
Now, now. You know the appropriate title is "HRH." Stop playing dumb.
Click to expand...

HRH? What are you talking about? To be honest, I thought it was a little disrespectful as a mod, for you to not put all of Ms. Mundinger's qualifications after her name when mentioning her: Dr. Nurse Mary Mundinger, RN BSN PhD CNA. That should be some name badge. Hey, since we refer to her so often on this site, would it be wrong to refer to her as Mar? You know, pronounced as "Mare" but "Mar."
 
schutzhund said:
Tipps, you are WAY off base. Its insulting actually. I get really tired of the XYZ practitioner is as good as a doctor because of ABC. It's completely and utterly off base.

I think I can speak about this just as much or more than anyone else here. I was (am) an RN with LOTS of experience (including MICU, CVICU and others). I went to an NP program. I am now a physician. I can tell you unequivicaly that the level of understanding is no where near the same between the two. In almost all circumstances, people make similarity claims because they have an inferiority complex and really wanted to be a doctor but either could not or didn't have the fortitude to dedicate so much time to achieve their goal. It's true. People won't admit it but it's the truth. I felt the same way years ago.

Back to your post. Of course a new intern or resident doesn't have the same judgment as a seasoned nurse. They're not supposed to. That's why they are a resident. These arguments demonstrate your lack of understanding of medical education. Medical school teaches you science. It's not meant to prepare to function in a clinical setting by yourself right out of school. That's a major difference between nursing school and medical school. Medical students graduate with a tremendous base of science (anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, etc) but they don't really learn what to do with that until post-graduate training. That's why residency is 3-8 more years and it's required. Nobody can practice medicine straight out of school.

A NP will NEVER be a replacement for a physician. The difference in knowledge is beyond what you could imagine (and as a reminder, I've done both). Sure, an NP can function well in a clinical setting but they lack the depth of understanding and complex decision making that a doctor has. Experience is great but it doesn't replace knowledge. I could give an LPN a chart on JNC7 and they could manage hypertension, but that not mean they understand it.

Knowing what I know now, I am petrified of what I could have missed as an NP. There are whole categories of disease that I didn't even know existed.

Sorry, but your argument is foolish, incorrect, insulting, and quit frankly embarrassing.
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Just read this post. Sorry if it took me so long. Excellent post. You crystalized my thoughts exactly.
 
Originally Posted by schutzhund
Tipps, you are WAY off base. Its insulting actually. I get really tired of the XYZ practitioner is as good as a doctor because of ABC. It's completely and utterly off base.

I think I can speak about this just as much or more than anyone else here. I was (am) an RN with LOTS of experience (including MICU, CVICU and others). I went to an NP program. I am now a physician. I can tell you unequivicaly that the level of understanding is no where near the same between the two. In almost all circumstances, people make similarity claims because they have an inferiority complex and really wanted to be a doctor but either could not or didn't have the fortitude to dedicate so much time to achieve their goal. It's true. People won't admit it but it's the truth. I felt the same way years ago.
Click to expand...

I would not generalize and say that "in almost all circumstances..." I never wanted to be a physician, but I think my parents hoped I would and perhaps the one country general surgeon in my town who taught me as an aide more than he should have. If I had wanted to be a physician, poor as I was, I would have found a way. So no, it's not the truth.
 
No, it isn't true. I have never wanted to be a physician I didn't even want to be a nurse, I just feel into it by accident. It's a long story. I have been at it 15 years now, and want to move forward and learn something new, do something different. That is all. No designs on being a medical doctor. Were I ever to get a DNP or a PhD, I imagine most of my patients would continue to call me Chilly anyway (i.e. my first name, lol), so I think all this nonsense is really a moot point. Nursing has always been about the patient relationship and never about titles. I doubt the whole "Dr" nurse thing matters to anyone who has earned the title. It seems to mattter a great deal to people who don't seem to have any reason to care. It strikes me as very odd.
 
ChillyRN said:
No, it isn't true. I have never wanted to be a physician I didn't even want to be a nurse, I just feel into it by accident. It's a long story. I have been at it 15 years now, and want to move forward and learn something new, do something different. That is all. No designs on being a medical doctor. Were I ever to get a DNP or a PhD, I imagine most of my patients would continue to call me Chilly anyway (i.e. my first name, lol), so I think all this nonsense is really a moot point. Nursing has always been about the patient relationship and never about titles. I doubt the whole "Dr" nurse thing matters to anyone who has earned the title. It seems to mattter a great deal to people who don't seem to have any reason to care. It strikes me as very odd.
Click to expand...

Wow, you're incredibly naive if that's what you believe. Do you really think a DNP has ANYTHING to do with the patient relationship?

Nurses LOVE titles - really - they absolutely love them. Most people put a degree after their name, or possibly some sort of certification - maybe both - but that's it. Nurses on the other hand will list EVERYTHING...

Jane Doe, RN, BSN, MSN, DNP, RN-C, ARNP, CCRN, CEN, etc. Really - they do this. Look in any nursing journal and look at the authors. It's like alphabet soup - they list EVERY degree and EVERY certification. It's ridiculous.
 
jwk said:
Wow, you're incredibly naive if that's what you believe. Do you really think a DNP has ANYTHING to do with the patient relationship?

Nurses LOVE titles - really - they absolutely love them. Most people put a degree after their name, or possibly some sort of certification - maybe both - but that's it. Nurses on the other hand will list EVERYTHING...

Jane Doe, RN, BSN, MSN, DNP, RN-C, ARNP, CCRN, CEN, etc. Really - they do this. Look in any nursing journal and look at the authors. It's like alphabet soup - they list EVERY degree and EVERY certification. It's ridiculous.
Click to expand...


100% agree with you.
Nurses are very tittle oriented, its a war against themselves!!
 
Originally Posted by schutzhund View Post
Tipps, you are WAY off base. Its insulting actually. I get really tired of the XYZ practitioner is as good as a doctor because of ABC. It's completely and utterly off base.

I think I can speak about this just as much or more than anyone else here. I was (am) an RN with LOTS of experience (including MICU, CVICU and others). I went to an NP program. I am now a physician. I can tell you unequivicaly that the level of understanding is no where near the same between the two. In almost all circumstances, people make similarity claims because they have an inferiority complex and really wanted to be a doctor but either could not or didn't have the fortitude to dedicate so much time to achieve their goal. It's true. People won't admit it but it's the truth. I felt the same way years ago.

Back to your post. Of course a new intern or resident doesn't have the same judgment as a seasoned nurse. They're not supposed to. That's why they are a resident. These arguments demonstrate your lack of understanding of medical education. Medical school teaches you science. It's not meant to prepare to function in a clinical setting by yourself right out of school. That's a major difference between nursing school and medical school. Medical students graduate with a tremendous base of science (anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, etc) but they don't really learn what to do with that until post-graduate training. That's why residency is 3-8 more years and it's required. Nobody can practice medicine straight out of school.

A NP will NEVER be a replacement for a physician. The difference in knowledge is beyond what you could imagine (and as a reminder, I've done both). Sure, an NP can function well in a clinical setting but they lack the depth of understanding and complex decision making that a doctor has. Experience is great but it doesn't replace knowledge. I could give an LPN a chart on JNC7 and they could manage hypertension, but that not mean they understand it.

Knowing what I know now, I am petrified of what I could have missed as an NP. There are whole categories of disease that I didn't even know existed.

Sorry, but your argument is foolish, incorrect, insulting, and quit frankly embarrassing.




I think nobody could have said it better. congrats, very good post.
 
from the ADVANCE for Nurse Practitioners Web site.

If you had a doctoral degree, would you use the title “doctor”?
- Yes, I earned it. (22%)
- Yes, but not with patients. (17%)
- No. (60%)

so really it's only around 1/4 of these folks who want to use it clinically and another 17% who know how to use it appropriately while the vast majority won't use it at all.....
I have no problem with someone getting the degree(although I don't believe it should be required to practice) but don't think these folks or others without an md/do/dpm should use it in a hospital.
 
jwk said:
Wow, you're incredibly naive if that's what you believe. Do you really think a DNP has ANYTHING to do with the patient relationship?

Nurses LOVE titles - really - they absolutely love them. Most people put a degree after their name, or possibly some sort of certification - maybe both - but that's it. Nurses on the other hand will list EVERYTHING...

Jane Doe, RN, BSN, MSN, DNP, RN-C, ARNP, CCRN, CEN, etc. Really - they do this. Look in any nursing journal and look at the authors. It's like alphabet soup - they list EVERY degree and EVERY certification. It's ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Let's not forget that Registered Nurses are very protective of the title of "nurse" even though it's not a protected title. The RN's prevent the LPN's from using the "nurse" title even though the LPN's perform many of the traditional duties of nursing. In fact, at most places, LPN's can't wear the traditional all white nurse uniform.

So this claim that nursing is not about titles is rather stupid. We all know how important titles are to nurses and their inferiority complexes.
 
emedpa said:
from the ADVANCE for Nurse Practitioners Web site.

If you had a doctoral degree, would you use the title “doctor”?
- Yes, I earned it. (22%)
- Yes, but not with patients. (17%)
- No. (60%)

so really it's only around 1/4 of these folks who want to use it clinically and another 17% who know how to use it appropriately while the vast majority won't use it at all.....
I have no problem with someone getting the degree(although I don't believe it should be required to practice) but don't think these folks or others without an md/do/dpm should use it in a hospital.
Click to expand...

a little bird told me that the 22% of that survey were all DNPs or DNP students :)
 
Wha? I've never heard of an LPN called anything other than a nurse, and I've never worked anywhere where we wore white anyway, so it would be a bit silly to ban LPNs from doing so. I do object to medical assistants and nursing assistants being called nurses, because they're not.

I think it's important to note that there's a significant disconnect between the ivory-tower nurses (those with FAAN and such behind their name) and nurses who actually work as nurses. I can see how the inferiority complex argument works with some of my professors :laugh: but with regular nurses? Notsomuch.
 
Farmer Jane said:
Wha? I've never heard of an LPN called anything other than a nurse, and I've never worked anywhere where we wore white anyway, so it would be a bit silly to ban LPNs from doing so. I do object to medical assistants and nursing assistants being called nurses, because they're not.

I think it's important to note that there's a significant disconnect between the ivory-tower nurses (those with FAAN and such behind their name) and nurses who actually work as nurses. I can see how the inferiority complex argument works with some of my professors :laugh: but with regular nurses? Notsomuch.
Click to expand...

So do you object to nurses DNP being called doctor? because they are not....
:)
 
4thelonghaul said:
So do you object to nurses DNP being called doctor? because they are not....
:)
Click to expand...

That depends on what definition you use. Technically they have a doctorate degree and are doctors. The problem with using it in a clinical setting is that society has labeled doctor to be equivalent to physician and a physician they are not.
 
4thelonghaul said:
So do you object to nurses DNP being called doctor? because they are not....
:)
Click to expand...

I don't expect you to know me well, but if you look through my posts you'll see that I do not support the DNP/ANA agenda.
 
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