Directing letter writers?

[PhotonProton]

I was speaking with a co-resident and they were mentioning how they are email all of their letter writers for letters and directing/asking them to speak on certain traits on their behalf. Is this normal or stand practice when asking for letters? I.E- asking 1 to speak on work ethic, another on medical knowledge, etc.?

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[Kaustikos]

I was speaking with a co-resident and they were mentioning how they are email all of their letter writers for letters and directing/asking them to speak on certain traits on their behalf. Is this normal or stand practice when asking for letters? I.E- asking 1 to speak on work ethic, another on medical knowledge, etc.?

Yes. It's not a bad thing when they're trying to help you out and want to get you into programs*. If you think of it from a different perspective; they say "This candidate has a great work ethic...." and no example.


*this is my opinion and others may disagree. realize this is SDN and some advice is anecdotal and not 100% truth. take what I say with a grain of salt. live long and prosper. may the force be with you. maximum effort.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I'll disagree somewhat. I've never been asked for a letter with a "theme". It's up to me to describe your performance. I would not be thrilled to get such a request. If it was what I would have written about anyway, then I probably wouldn't care. if it wasn't, I'd probably tell you that I can't do a good job of that and decline. I think it's weird, honestly.

 

[PhotonProton]

I'll disagree somewhat. I've never been asked for a letter with a "theme". It's up to me to describe your performance. I would not be thrilled to get such a request. If it was what I would have written about anyway, then I probably wouldn't care. if it wasn't, I'd probably tell you that I can't do a good job of that and decline. I think it's weird, honestly.

Yea that's what I was thinking as well and decided not to say anything and let them speak on my behalf as they see fit. It is probably more genuine that way too.

 

[Kaustikos]

I'll disagree somewhat. I've never been asked for a letter with a "theme". It's up to me to describe your performance. I would not be thrilled to get such a request. If it was what I would have written about anyway, then I probably wouldn't care. if it wasn't, I'd probably tell you that I can't do a good job of that and decline. I think it's weird, honestly.

You're cheating. You're maybe, possibly, likely a program director. Not fair*


*jk

 

[dozitgetchahi]

I'll disagree somewhat. I've never been asked for a letter with a "theme". It's up to me to describe your performance. I would not be thrilled to get such a request. If it was what I would have written about anyway, then I probably wouldn't care. if it wasn't, I'd probably tell you that I can't do a good job of that and decline. I think it's weird, honestly.

I agree. I think it’s weird.

I also think it’s very weird when letter writers go “just write your own letter and I’ll sign it”. Not only is it awkward to try to write your own rec letter, but shouldn’t that person be coming up with the content and the evaluation etc? Just seems quite odd.

 

[HemeOncHopeful19]

I also think it’s very weird when letter writers go “just write your own letter and I’ll sign it”. Not only is it awkward to try to write your own rec letter, but shouldn’t that person be coming up with the content and the evaluation etc? Just seems quite odd.

I had someone do this and then they declined to write my letter after I delivered a glowing LOR. Like bro I don’t know what you expected me to do, write a mediocre letter for myself?

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I had a writer ask for pointers that I wanted emphasized, so I tried to give them that. But really I prefer the writers to choose, I feel like they are more familiar with what a good letter should say then I am.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

"write your own letter and I'll sign it" is the biggest cop-out ever. It's not a way to help a student be introspective about their performance. It's simply a way to be lazy.

 

[Kaustikos]

"write your own letter and I'll sign it" is the biggest cop-out ever. It's not a way to help a student be introspective about their performance. It's simply a way to be lazy.

Well, as a counter-argument...what would you do if you didn't have enough people to write you letters and that was one of the only options? I'm speaking anecdotally, but I've had other colleagues with similar issues. Albeit rare, would you tell them to not accept the letter?

 

[HemeOncHopeful19]

"write your own letter and I'll sign it" is the biggest cop-out ever. It's not a way to help a student be introspective about their performance. It's simply a way to be lazy.

To be fair are there many other fields of work where your life dreams/goals can be put into the hands of an anonymous letter writer?

The whole LOR process should be replaced with two checkboxes “is this person qualified to be in XYZ field” and “is this person a psychopath”

 

[dozitgetchahi]

To be fair are there many other fields of work where your life dreams/goals can be put into the hands of an anonymous letter writer?

The whole LOR process should be replaced with two checkboxes “is this person qualified to be in XYZ field” and “is this person a psychopath”

I agree that rec letters are basically worthless. I read applicant files for a time back when I was a resident, and helped do interviews. I can’t think of a single rec letter that stood out, or that really changed much of anything in the application process. All sort of blend together into a bland mishmash of overheated bull****.

I think the rec letters could be dropped altogether and it wouldn’t change a damn thing about the whole process.

 

[Kaustikos]

I agree that rec letters are basically worthless. I read applicant files for a time back when I was a resident, and helped do interviews. I can’t think of a single rec letter that stood out, or that really changed much of anything in the application process. All sort of blend together into a bland mishmash of overheated bull****.

I think the rec letters could be dropped altogether and it wouldn’t change a damn thing about the whole process.

Add Personal Statements, too.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Well, as a counter-argument...what would you do if you didn't have enough people to write you letters and that was one of the only options? I'm speaking anecdotally, but I've had other colleagues with similar issues. Albeit rare, would you tell them to not accept the letter?

I guess I'd say its a sad state of affairs if you can't find 3 people to write you a reference letter after being a student for 3+ years. But I'm old.

The whole LOR process should be replaced with two checkboxes “is this person qualified to be in XYZ field” and “is this person a psychopath”

Add Personal Statements, too.

That's a great idea. Add in Pass/Fail prelcinical grades, P/F steps, P/F clerkships, no LOR's, and remove personal statements. What's left?

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Add Personal Statements, too.

At least a personal statement can (in theory) add a personal touch to the application. Rec letters usually sound like they all came off the exact same assembly line somewhere.

 

[rokshana]

If someone tells you to write your LoR, then they don’t know you well enough to write you a good letter.

 

[Kaustikos]

I guess I'd say its a sad state of affairs if you can't find 3 people to write you a reference letter after being a student for 3+ years. But I'm old.

I agree with that

 

[NonNocere]

In my experience, it's useful to have a conversation with the potential letter writer and try to do the best thing.

 

[TransformerInWestVirginia]

I guess I'd say its a sad state of affairs if you can't find 3 people to write you a reference letter after being a student for 3+ years. But I'm old.


That's a great idea. Add in Pass/Fail prelcinical grades, P/F steps, P/F clerkships, no LOR's, and remove personal statements. What's left?

No offense (truly and honestly don't mean offense) but when people say stuff like this it really just tells me how out of touch they are.

Especially for competetive fellowships you dont need "good" letters. You need "off the wall" exaggerating letters. If you can't understand that, youre out of touch to me. You're only as strong as your weakest letter these days. If your letter writers can't play the game, then that is to your detriment.

That being said, if you can't respect that wish then that is absolutely your perogative and I actually would appreciate the honesty. If someone were to tell me something to the sort of "I cant speak to this specific quality that you desire" then that puts the ball in my court in deciding whether I want to proceed, which is actully better in the long run

TLDR: I would cut people some slack for "guiding" their letters. They are in charge of their application.

 

[TransformerInWestVirginia]

I had a writer ask for pointers that I wanted emphasized, so I tried to give them that. But really I prefer the writers to choose, I feel like they are more familiar with what a good letter should say then I am.

this is off topic but i remember you from my premed SDN days. Damn, nice to see you on the other side. been years at this point.

 

[TransformerInWestVirginia]

I agree that rec letters are basically worthless. I read applicant files for a time back when I was a resident, and helped do interviews. I can’t think of a single rec letter that stood out, or that really changed much of anything in the application process. All sort of blend together into a bland mishmash of overheated bull****.

I think the rec letters could be dropped altogether and it wouldn’t change a damn thing about the whole process.

yea this is one of those things that there is no straight answer on. I have heard people telling me how important letters are til I was blue in the face. If what you're saying is true which is totally a possibility what the hell is the incentive to be mediocre resident vs a stellar one.

 

[Kaustikos]

TLDR: I would cut people some slack for "guiding" their letters. They are in charge of their application.

I had to do it. The director of the program I was applying for basically said he wouldn't write one unless I did it for him. Was I annoyed? Yes. But what am I supposed to do? Tell him to do his job and write it himself? Because then I wouldn't trust what he would say.

 

[rokshana]

I agree. I think it’s weird.

I also think it’s very weird when letter writers go “just write your own letter and I’ll sign it”. Not only is it awkward to try to write your own rec letter, but shouldn’t that person be coming up with the content and the evaluation etc? Just seems quite odd.

That usually means they really dont know that much about you and you didn’t make a decent impression.

 

[IMGASMD]

That usually means they really dont know that much about you and you didn’t make a decent impression.

Not necessarily….
Here’s the copy pasta from a Reddit reply recently. Someone was asking about all the “key phrases” that can be used.

In my mind, step scores are your first screening, then maybe your activities; after that, then i read the letters. If the MS is “not smart” enough, to have someone who would writing a non flattering letter…. You’re out. However, most of the “good” letters will have the following phrases, it’s very hard to really stand-out. It’s all a big farce, deep inside of my mind….


"Outstanding", "top 1% student", "function like an intern", "has a lot of autonomy and is proactive", "works well in team/pleasant to work with", "notes complete, yet concise and focused", "formulates excellent differential", "knowledge base above his level", "outstanding and empathetic interactions with patients"

 

[HemeOncHopeful19]

That usually means they really dont know that much about you and you didn’t make a decent impression.

Alternatively (in my experience) they actually have full time jobs and/or are young faculty that don’t have a folder full of old letters that they have already written to copy/paste/combine into your new letter.

 

[rokshana]

Alternatively (in my experience) they actually have full time jobs and/or are young faculty that don’t have a folder full of old letters that they have already written to copy/paste/combine into your new letter.

And still say… the MS didn’t make enough of an impression for the person to want to bother with doing a LoR.

Then they are never going to be a good LoR writer. Wouldn’t ask them.

And young faculty…being lazy… this is part of their job.

 

[rokshana]

No offense (truly and honestly don't mean offense) but when people say stuff like this it really just tells me how out of touch they are.

Especially for competetive fellowships you dont need "good" letters. You need "off the wall" exaggerating letters. If you can't understand that, youre out of touch to me. You're only as strong as your weakest letter these days. If your letter writers can't play the game, then that is to your detriment.

That being said, if you can't respect that wish then that is absolutely your perogative and I actually would appreciate the honesty. If someone were to tell me something to the sort of "I cant speak to this specific quality that you desire" then that puts the ball in my court in deciding whether I want to proceed, which is actully better in the long run

TLDR: I would cut people some slack for "guiding" their letters. They are in charge of their application.

Really? You mean no offense? Hard to believe…
You do realize that he was an IM PD, right? Until maybe 2 years ago… who has prolly sifted through 10s of thousands of applications in his career…and exactly what is your qualification for being and expert on how residency applications are done now? PD? Assistant PD?

And that past paragraph you do realize was sarcasm ?

 

[dozitgetchahi]

That usually means they really dont know that much about you and you didn’t make a decent impression.

Then they should decline to write the letter.

 

[rokshana]

Then they should decline to write the letter.

Agree

 

[TransformerInWestVirginia]

Really? You mean no offense? Hard to believe…
You do realize that he was an IM PD, right? Until maybe 2 years ago… who has prolly sifted through 10s of thousands of applications in his career…and exactly what is your qualification for being and expert on how residency applications are done now? PD? Assistant PD?

And that past paragraph you do realize was sarcasm ?

are you his cousin or something. why are you getting all defensive.

 

[gutonc]

are you his cousin or something. why are you getting all defensive.

I'm guessing because you came out of nowhere, acting like an a-hole and maligning the reputation of probably the most consistently helpful and supportive poster on SDN.

Not that @NotAProgDirector needs anybody to defend them. They do a pretty good job on their own.

But I guess @rokshana could also be @NotAProgDirector 's cousin too...never asked either of them.

 

[Kaustikos]

But I guess @rokshana could also be @NotAProgDirector 's cousin too...never asked either of them.

 

[rokshana]

are you his cousin or something. why are you getting all defensive.

Lol…no…but it looks like you are at best a pgy 3 in internal medicine that wasn’t happy with their intern spot in 2020…so…I think your not exactly qualified in this matter.

But I hope you got cards LoR, because cards IS competitive and they will circular file your application without it.

 

[TransformerInWestVirginia]

Lol…no…but it looks like you are at best a pgy 3 in internal medicine that wasn’t happy with their intern spot in 2020…so…I think your not exactly qualified in this matter.

But I hope you got cards LoR, because cards IS competitive and they will circular file your application without it.

I can also click on your profile and pointlessly look at your post history. But i won't because I actually have better things to do.
But to answer your question, not happy isn't the way to describe it. PM me, I can tell you all the details if you want.

I'm guessing because you came out of nowhere, acting like an a-hole and maligning the reputation of probably the most consistently helpful and supportive poster on SDN.

Not that @NotAProgDirector needs anybody to defend them. They do a pretty good job on their own.

Oh boy.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Everyone is allowed their opinion.

Everyone is also welcome to use SDN's ignore function. Solves lots of problems.