Depressed and wanting to change careers

[Pronation]

My input might get shouted down on this forum but I think you have a decent outlook. You're at the end of a grueling residency so you're basically seeing the light at the end of that tunnel. Residency sucks. Period. Being in practice has it's problems but what job doesn't? It's way better than residency. You're single and geographically flexible so that's in your favor. You WILL be able to pay off your student loans as long as you don't blow all your money on fine watches and fast cars in the first decade out. Cost of living is outrageous but that doesn't change with your career choice; everyone in the country is facing it. How many careers can make you six figures right out of the gate? Only a few. You've made your choice so you may as well follow through at this point. You can change careers later if you still hate it after you've banked some money. Hang in there dude. Don't choke now.

Oh yeah, the 20s aren't the only prime years of life. Take care of your physical health and there will be plenty of prime years left.

What on earth are you even talking about? Does someone here need to do the math for you on how long it will take to payoff 300k loans on a garbage 100-120k salary, aka “six figures”? Enjoy living a lower middle class lifestyle while making “six figures” after pissing away your youth in podiometric medakul skool and then an unnecessarily long 3 year pod residency. I understand you’re trying to give this person some encouraging words, but don’t blow smoke up their arse. It is what it is.

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[NatCh]

What on earth are you even talking about? Does someone here need to do the math for you on how long it will take to payoff 300k loans on a garbage 100-120k salary, aka “six figures”? Enjoy living a lower middle class lifestyle while making “six figures” after pissing away your youth in podiometric medakul skool. I understand you’re trying to give this person some encouraging words, but don’t blow smoke up their arse. It is what it is.

See what I mean?

 

[JustAPedicurist]

See what I mean?

My only point was how do you expect me to buy fancy watches/cars with a $120k salary and $300k in loans?

 

[Pronation]

My only point was how do you expect me to buy fancy watches/cars with a $120k salary and $300k in loans?

He’s basically telling you that you can’t have any of these things if you want to have any hope of paying back your loans in less than a decade.

 

[Shiyuan]

VA, FQHC, MSG... You’re motivated enough you’ll find somewhere. What I did was pull up on Google MAPS and searched “doctor” or “hospital”.. from there I wittled away any private practice and applied to a multitude of places.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

He’s basically telling you that you can’t have any of these things if you want to have any hope of paying back your loans in less than a decade.

I can’t have any of those things anyways on a $120,000 salary even if I didn’t have student loans…

 

[NatCh]

My only point was how do you expect me to buy fancy watches/cars with a $120k salary and $300k in loans?

He’s basically telling you that you can’t have any of these things if you want to have any hope of paying back your loans in less than a decade.

I'd say the same to anyone who has student loans and wants to buy a Porsche.

 

[Feli]

there’s just so many opportunities in this world and I feel so pigeon holed with this career...

Yes, this is reason #282 why fellowships are ludicris. Podiatry is already fairly narrow.^

Podiatry is ok (assuming you enjoy the work) or even great, but you basically need to set a goal of attaining one of two routes:

1. High paying job (hospital, academic/admin, partner in PP pod/ortho/MSG/etc)... hours or admins may not be good at some jobs, but income is good enough. The main trap here is avoiding burnout and not comparing your $ to the hospital MDs' $.
2. Owner... hours can be as bad or worse than hospital employ in the early going, but it's enjoyable as you're forming what you want. A lot of frustration with any career is from existing in someone else's schedule and organization system. The mid/long term PP owner income is nice, and hours get much better.

...and yeah, it is rough to have to grind for many years after training and move around (for vast majority who can't find a hospital job out of residency - or lose that job) in order to get ABFAS and/or save the $ to buy out or start up a PP. The DPM saturation for both hospital jobs and PP is a very real problem, and it's only getting worse. You have to find a way to have fun with it all.

The main keys are setting a budget/savings, not counting other ppl's money, and enjoying what you have... fitness, relationships, nature, many hobbies, and other fun things are affordable or even basically free. As was said, life is long. There are many worse or even more saturated careers.

 

[Adam Smasher]

@NatCh has good input.

We talk a lot in these forums about the poor job outlook for podiatrists and the things you have to sacrifice to get your career going. And make no mistake: these are REAL problems. We talk about all this for the benefit of prepods so they embark upon their training without any illusion of what awaits them in the end.

But for people like @JustAPedicurist who has already put in the time it doesn't do anyone any good to be unabashedly negative. Happiness is a question of mindset. If you want to be negative about podiatry, fine, but don't be negative about your own life. I've joked here in the past podiatry isn't a bad gig, it's better than working nightshift at a meat-packing plant. If you can't stand trimming toenails, fine don't do it, tell the patients to F off while you treat other things. Just keep your head down, set a goal for yourself, and work towards that goal. Only the OP can decide if podiatry will work him towards that goal or away from it.

 

[Boba Foot]

My only point was how do you expect me to buy fancy watches/cars with a $120k salary and $300k in loans?

PAYE and REPAYE IDR student loan repayment plans are your friend. Especially with the last 3 years of repayment freezes. You'd be a sucker to pay the loans off in full right now.

 

[Shiyuan]

PAYE and REPAYE IDR student loan repayment plans are your friend. Especially with the last 3 years of repayment freezes. You'd be a sucker to pay the loans off in full right now.

I miss your old icon btw

 

[Utvolsdpm]

Nonmedical, PM News had a story, not that long ago about a pod that had taken over the family plumbing business.

I don’t know the BM news obsession with him but they had an update that he now has some position with a clothing company that you have to take an oath to look at their website. I forget exactly but it had “brotherhood” in the name I think.

 

[Shiyuan]

I don’t know the BM news obsession with him but they had an update that he now has some position with a clothing company that you have to take an oath to look at their website. I forget exactly but it had “brotherhood” in the name I think.

Hmm... Is he part of the Assassin’s Creed or something now?

 

[Utvolsdpm]

Hmm... Is he part of the Assassin’s Creed or something now?

was recently appointed an Advisory Board Member at Heare Brotherhood Co. in San Antonio, TX. Dr Sagray earned his podiatric medical degree at Midwestern University in Arizona and completed a podiatric residency at INOVA/Georgetown University.

​

Dr. Sagray completed a fellowship in reconstructive rearfoot/ankle surgery at UT Health in San Antonio, TX. He is a fellow of the American College of Foot and Ankle Surgeons.

 

[air bud]

Nerd alert

 

[icebreaker32]

for people like @JustAPedicurist who has already put in the time it doesn't do anyone any good to be unabashedly negative. Happiness is a question of mindset. If you want to be negative about podiatry, fine, but don't be negative about your own life.

Good advice

You have to make podiatry work or at least give a very good chance at this point.

There are always options if you still feel this way later. You could always do mobile podiatry and go back to school to become an RN, teacher etc and work somewhere that qualifies for PSLF.

 

[air bud]

Come on people. Still a resident. You are burnt out. It's ok. Check out the article by our esteemed colleague Dr. Calvin about how to deal with burnout.... although he wrote about it as fellow.

Find a job. Keep expenses low. Right everything out in pencil not pen. Things change.

 

[Shiyuan]

Nerd alert

Badge of honor, broski

 

[Feli]

Come on people. Still a resident. ...

Yeah, so... new rule: People can't be burnt out until they do ABFAS case submits.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

Yeah, so... new rule: People can't be burnt out until they do ABFAS case submits.

View attachment 370982

Clearly unqualified. You should never touch anything proximal to the nail matrix.

 

[icebreaker32]

Yeah, so... new rule: People can't be burnt out until they do ABFAS case submits.

View attachment 370982

Are you serious Feli?

Not right (like many things about podiatry).

 

[air bud]

Yeah, so... new rule: People can't be burnt out until they do ABFAS case submits.

View attachment 370982

Been there.

 

[Feli]

Been there.

I actually put a wrong foot pre-op on there and got dinged twice for that (pt had bilat XR, I was just going fast on uploading XRs for case review since it was a whirlwind prepping for opening my own office and working a job at the same time).

I might appeal if they will let me submit correct foot pre-op XR.
If they won't let me send the correct pre-op XR set and say any review is just with the XRs sent a couple months ago, it'd be a fairly big risk to appeal just on screw too long (of course), choice of fixation, etc.

Can't complain, tho... most ppl I've talked to today got 450 or 460 or something. All had basically prepped themselves for that and were not too shocked. One I know did pass both parts

 

[JustAPedicurist]

I actually put a wrong foot pre-op on there and got dinged twice for that (pt had bilat XR, I was just going fast on uploading XRs for case review since it was a whirlwind prepping for opening my own office and working a job at the same time).

I might appeal if they will let me submit correct foot pre-op XR.
If they won't let me send the correct pre-op XR set and say any review is just with the XRs sent a couple months ago, it'd be a fairly big risk to appeal just on screw too long (of course), choice of fixation, etc.

Can't complain, tho... most ppl I've talked to today got 450 or 460 or something. All had basically prepped themselves for that and were not too shocked. One I know did pass both parts

Yeah most people fail so the money train rolls. Not to derail the thread. The point of this thread is for everyone to join me in misery

 

[Shiyuan]

Yeah, so... new rule: People can't be burnt out until they do ABFAS case submits.

View attachment 370982

Lol .... we want our $$$ pretty preeze

EDIT: Still sucks though. Sry bro 😕

 

[dtrack22]

Yeah, so... new rule: People can't be burnt out until they do ABFAS case submits.

View attachment 370982

Our ABFAS friend who was quick to address all of the ABFAS talking points (that later became a blog post about the case review process), assured us that this only happens because you are a crap surgeon who shouldn’t be doing foot and ankle surgery. Not because of the unreasonable documentation requirements or subjective nature of the case review process as it stands lol

He’s definitely NOT affiliated with ABFAS, but he’s already gone…his SDN presence was short lived…

 

[Boba Foot]

Yeah, so... new rule: People can't be burnt out until they do ABFAS case submits.

View attachment 370982

Absolutely no one saw this coming. /s

Looks like they found *just enough* for you to fail so they can keep the $$ train going.

Sorry you've fallen victim to their scam too. Everyone here knows you're beyond competent as a surgeon.

 

[Pronation]

Our ABFAS friend who was quick to address all of the ABFAS talking points (that later became a blog post about the case review process), assured us that this only happens because you are a crap surgeon who shouldn’t be doing foot and ankle surgery. Not because of the unreasonable documentation requirements or subjective nature of the case review process as it stands lol

He’s definitely NOT affiliated with ABFAS, but he’s already gone…his SDN presence was short lived…

Pour out a bottle of Formula3 for our fallen

 

[bloxxeeey]

Our ABFAS friend who was quick to address all of the ABFAS talking points (that later became a blog post about the case review process), assured us that this only happens because you are a crap surgeon who shouldn’t be doing foot and ankle surgery. Not because of the unreasonable documentation requirements or subjective nature of the case review process as it stands lol

He’s definitely NOT affiliated with ABFAS, but he’s already gone…his SDN presence was short lived…

If you don't write copious amounts of sterile saline in your op report you fail. Also if you don't mention the patient is to be weight bearing in surgical shoe as shoe gear, you fail. Don't forget not mentioning that you used a fresh #15 blade to do the incision, if you don't mention that it is fresh, you fail.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

Sorry you've fallen victim to their scam too. Everyone here knows you're beyond competent as a surgeon.

who is the best surgeon on SDN?

 

[Boba Foot]

who is the best surgeon on SDN?

The answer has an inverse relationship to the length and girth of each poster's mustache.

 

[Pronation]

who is the best surgeon on SDN?

Check the MD section

 

[msion]

I would say stick to podiatry for now. Grass is always greener on the other side but each profession has its own problems.
Starting salary for a DPM is of course lower than the other doctors, but still high enough than most jobs. Get an associate position and then apply for better ones.

One can argue some medical careers with less training can pay more, which is true. An RN/PA/NP can earn well over 200k a year if doing the right things, but often times many won't be making that much starting out. Plus there are also hospital politics, pledge allegiance to the older nurses and the inability to pick shifts. A lot of the money is actually from working nights, weekends, and overtime.

I once thought about quitting podiatry and just become a software engineer/web developer by doing one of those coding bootcamps. This plan might have worked well for the past couple years as jobs were plenty and every company in the Silicon Valley was hiring. But now all the tech companies are letting people go. So the economy is cyclical, what's good may not be good forever. Podiatry sucks and associate salary won't really go up much, but at least there is some consistency to it.

 

[heybrother]

I see adam smasher has learned his lesson about comparing podiatry to the noble field of child soldier.

I've joked here in the past podiatry isn't a bad gig, it's better than working nightshift at a meat-packing plant.

 

[bloxxeeey]

I would say stick to podiatry for now. Grass is always greener on the other side but each profession has its own problems.
Starting salary for a DPM is of course lower than the other doctors, but still high enough than most jobs. Get an associate position and then apply for better ones.

One can argue some medical careers with less training can pay more, which is true. An RN/PA/NP can earn well over 200k a year if doing the right things, but often times many won't be making that much starting out. Plus there are also hospital politics, pledge allegiance to the older nurses and the inability to pick shifts. A lot of the money is actually from working nights, weekends, and overtime.

I once thought about quitting podiatry and just become a software engineer/web developer by doing one of those coding bootcamps. This plan might have worked well for the past couple years as jobs were plenty and every company in the Silicon Valley was hiring. But now all the tech companies are letting people go. So the economy is cyclical, what's good may not be good forever. Podiatry sucks and associate salary won't really go up much, but at least there is some consistency to it.

Yeah they are cutting back, my wife said she used to get 200k offers at least 5-8 times a week, she now only gets 4-5. She's got a decent gig not crossing 200k but 190k base which they upped to 230k on and about 80k a year stock and a decent sign on bonus, 6 weeks vacation and full benefits. It's not bad for a first job, blows our first jobs out the water but the job market is getting tougher for them, most new grads on the west coast are only pulling 180-250k first year comp right now which hasn't grown as much as it did in the previous 10 years. Their job progression is pretty rough too, most cap out at 400k a year maybe, meanwhile we cap out at ?

 

[JustAPedicurist]

Side note: the PA in the ED at my hospital just did a nail avulsion evidently. We are useless.

 

[msion]

Yeah they are cutting back, my wife said she used to get 200k offers at least 5-8 times a week, she now only gets 4-5. She's got a decent gig not crossing 200k but 190k base which they upped to 230k on and about 80k a year stock and a decent sign on bonus, 6 weeks vacation and full benefits. It's not bad for a first job, blows our first jobs out the water but the job market is getting tougher for them, most new grads on the west coast are only pulling 180-250k first year comp right now which hasn't grown as much as it did in the previous 10 years. Their job progression is pretty rough too, most cap out at 400k a year maybe, meanwhile we cap out at ?

It's kinda hard to progress to L4/5/6 at the tech companies, especially nowadays. Entry level tech workers definitely won't earn that much. I think the party is over for tech, the past decade was great though.

It's all about entering the market at the right time. Some factors are just beyond our control. Folks who bought real estate during 2010-2012 are now enjoying the fruits of their passive labor. Folks who bought homes over the past two years will unlikely see interest rate that low again (using the real estate analogy as I am currently doing this as a side hustle/passive income).

Same with podiatry. I kinda just passively ride it out in private practice, and then COVID hits. Bunch of the older docs refused/scared to go to the hospitals or quit entirely. So I got into the system and became the on-call person for all foot and ankle pathologies. Made a name for myself, got invited to join some unique insurance panels that pay 150-200% of medicare rates.

 

[Adam Smasher]

Side note: the PA in the ED at my hospital just did a nail avulsion evidently. We are useless.

Not really. The PA doing the nail avulsion might have been bored because most of the time it's just as easy for them to fast track patients off to a specialist. The unflattering key to podiatry's survival has always been that we do the stuff that's not worth anyone else's time.

We deal with the mycosis and skin lesions that aren't worth derm's time
Hallux valgus isn't worth ortho's time
Ulcers aren't worth vascular's time

I made this joke a while back. We're the bottom feeders of the medical world. Like lobsters. Which are some of the most evolutionarily successful species on the planet. Whenever an ecosystem faces turmoil, the bottomfeeders always squeeze by.

 

[Jummy Biffett]

I made this joke a while back. We're the bottom feeders of the medical world. Like lobsters. Which are some of the most evolutionarily successful species on the planet. Whenever an ecosystem faces turmoil, the bottomfeeders always squeeze by.

Great analogy, only difference is the value of lobster actually increases over time due to the decreased supply

 

[DrRock44]

As for nonclinical options, you could probably get in as a sales rep for an ortho or graft company.

This was in my inbox LOL. Shame that it is way better than most associate contracts.

"I am a medical device recruiter with Crossvine Recruiting working on a surgical sales position. The call point is Operating Rooms calling on Spine and Ortho- Spine surgeons. The average compensation for this role is $130,000 - $140,000. Upon a promotion opportunity in 1 year, the income opportunity doubles, surpassing $260,000+.

In short, this is truly a chance to earn significant compensation after a short period of time. This position also provides a unique opportunity for an equity position in the company in the form of Stock Options. Full benefits package, 401k, car mileage reimbursement (fuel and expense account) with all the extras! Your background is a strong fit for this territory. I was hoping you might have a few minutes to chat casually at some point early next week."

 

[NatCh]

Side note: the PA in the ED at my hospital just did a nail avulsion evidently. We are useless.

It's true that there's nothing we do that someone else doesn't do, but I get referrals from the urgent care and the ED all the time, even after a PA has given it a go. They might do the avulsion (sometimes yes, sometimes no) but then they'll send them over to me anyway.

You're within a few weeks of finishing (right?), so unless you have another source of income lined up that can make you as much as podiatry then you may as well just follow through for now.

The economy isn't going to change with your career choice and your debt isn't going to disappear if you change careers now. What else you got going on?

 

[JustAPedicurist]

It's true that there's nothing we do that someone else doesn't do, but I get referrals from the urgent care and the ED all the time, even after a PA has given it a go. They might do the avulsion (sometimes yes, sometimes no) but then they'll send them over to me anyway.

You're within a few weeks of finishing (right?), so unless you have another source of income lined up that can make you as much as podiatry then you may as well just follow through for now.

I have a year

 

[NatCh]

I have a year

It'll be over before you know it

 

[Shadowfax12]

Speaking of depression what’s the latest on the student loans? Isn’t there a court date set for June to dispute the legality of the 10k loan forgiveness? Possible repayment to restart in September

 

[DYK343]

Side note: the PA in the ED at my hospital just did a nail avulsion evidently. We are useless.

Poorly i can assure you of that. Dont worry. Repeat in 2 weeks. Its still coming your way.

 

[DYK343]

@NatCh has good input.

We talk a lot in these forums about the poor job outlook for podiatrists and the things you have to sacrifice to get your career going. And make no mistake: these are REAL problems. We talk about all this for the benefit of prepods so they embark upon their training without any illusion of what awaits them in the end.

But for people like @JustAPedicurist who has already put in the time it doesn't do anyone any good to be unabashedly negative. Happiness is a question of mindset. If you want to be negative about podiatry, fine, but don't be negative about your own life. I've joked here in the past podiatry isn't a bad gig, it's better than working nightshift at a meat-packing plant. If you can't stand trimming toenails, fine don't do it, tell the patients to F off while you treat other things. Just keep your head down, set a goal for yourself, and work towards that goal. Only the OP can decide if podiatry will work him towards that goal or away from it.

This is a really good post. Im going to go back to the DYK days where i was positive on here. This was pre 2 new schools opening up.

Most posters on here are highly successful.

Not all of us were at the 1st year(s) out but we found good jobs.

Jobs do exist.

They might not in 7 years when the class size increases substantially. But anyone graduating now or in the next year will still have opportunities.

Get board certified ASAP.

 

[Feli]

Side note: the PA in the ED at my hospital just did a nail avulsion evidently. We are useless.

I have no problem with this.

I will draw out how to do an ingrown for PCPs, explain how I do heel pain injects, etc.

My late residency director was big on this... he'd say "go ahead and teach them, let them try... they'll screw it up, and then they'll remember you as the expert on that stuff."

I also take it a step further: I will invite any local DPMs, from my group or elsewhere or if a doc refers to me, to scrub with me - or me with them if it's their pt/case. There are always relatively few takers (usually just a few of my past bosses or colleagues) due to ego or getting schedules to line up or that they're not on staff at the hospital/ASC, but it works out well to offer. I think it gets you known as someone cooperative who won't 'steal the patient' and having skills.

 

[air bud]

Yeah they are cutting back, my wife said she used to get 200k offers at least 5-8 times a week, she now only gets 4-5. She's got a decent gig not crossing 200k but 190k base which they upped to 230k on and about 80k a year stock and a decent sign on bonus, 6 weeks vacation and full benefits. It's not bad for a first job, blows our first jobs out the water but the job market is getting tougher for them, most new grads on the west coast are only pulling 180-250k first year comp right now which hasn't grown as much as it did in the previous 10 years. Their job progression is pretty rough too, most cap out at 400k a year maybe, meanwhile we cap out at ?

Is your wife married? I could use another income in my household.

 

[DYK343]

Opening 2 new schools is the stupidest F'm thing this profession has ever done.
Its just flat and simple stupid.

 

[dtrack22]

Great analogy, only difference is the value of lobster actually increases over time due to the decreased supply

Fun fact, Lobsters used to be exclusively food for prisoners and poor people in the northeast