Dental school debt

[Predent25]

Hey guys:
I'd hate to bother you with a pre-dental issue, but your answers are backed up by experience. A little about me... I earned a PhD while earning money, in the form of grants, and have worked in the field for several years. I was accepted to dental school for this coming fall, and have a few concerns regarding the debt. I have bills ( car, rent, phone, insurances etc...) in addition to the school and fees itself. I will be in approx 340k when it is all said and done. Is this type of debt manageable? If you guys could share your experiences with debt post- dental school I would be "indebted" to you.
Thank you!

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[senpai]

Hey guys:
I'd hate to bother you with a pre-dental issue, but your answers are backed up by experience. A little about me... I earned a PhD while earning money, in the form of grants, and have worked in the field for several years. I was accepted to dental school for this coming fall, and have a few concerns regarding the debt. I have bills ( car, rent, phone, insurances etc...) in addition to the school and fees itself. I will be in approx 340k when it is all said and done. Is this type of debt manageable? If you guys could share your experiences with debt post- dental school I would be "indebted" to you.
Thank you!

340k is way too much, IMO. Beyond the opportunity cost of a dental education. The first decade of practicing only expect to make 75-120k maybe. Then you can inch your way up to 150k with few hitting 200k.
Not worth it. Anything more than 250k is beyond the opportunity cost IMO.

 

[Predent25]

Well I am not going to pass this opportunity up desPite the debt. There are, I'm sure, ways to mange the debt besides joining the military. I'm sure most students who end up going out of stare for their education reach the 300+ range as well. Any additional advice is appreciated.

 

[Kobe08]

I am also in a similar situation as the OP. Should I just forget a dental education if I am going to accrue roughly that much debt?

 

[Pulpoutofhere]

340k is way too much, IMO. Beyond the opportunity cost of a dental education. The first decade of practicing only expect to make 75-120k maybe. Then you can inch your way up to 150k with few hitting 200k.
Not worth it. Anything more than 250k is beyond the opportunity cost IMO.

First, no one here can tell you whether or not it will be worth it. Some individuals have their own idea of how much a dental education is worth.

Second, Senpai has their information wrong. The going rate in CA, which is extremely saturated, is approx. 450/day. Do this 5-6 days a week and your looking at a 1st year associate gross income of some where in the 108K-129K range in a horrible market. If you are willing to move, your income will drastically change for the better. Additionally, your income is ONLY going to go up from here. I would not be surprised to see a general dentist somewhere in the 200K ball park 3-5 years out. With this kind of money, you can easily manage your debt if you live smart. By 10 years out, you should be in your prime. If you specialize, the 350k will be a drop in the bucket.

Hope this helps.

 

[Predent25]

First, no one here can tell you whether or not it will be worth it. Some individuals have their own idea of how much a dental education is worth.

Second, Senpai has their information wrong. The going rate in CA, which is extremely saturated, is approx. 450/day. Do this 5-6 days a week and your looking at a 1st year associate gross income of some where in the 108K-129K range in a horrible market. If you are willing to move, your income will drastically change for the better. Additionally, your income is ONLY going to go up from here. I would not be surprised to see a general dentist somewhere in the 200K ball park 3-5 years out. With this kind of money, you can easily manage your debt if you live smart. By 10 years out, you should be in your prime. If you specialize, the 350k will be a drop in the bucket.

Hope this helps.

Thank you. This does help. It is nice to finally see some optimism.

 

[BobLoblawDDS]

Thank you. This does help. It is nice to finally see some optimism.

Sounds like you were searching for a particular answer.

 

[Predent25]

Sounds like you were searching for a particular answer.

I'm not searching for a particular answer, just source. People like you are the reason I posted this thread in section for residents and practicing dentists. They have been through this before. We haven't. I am open to all answers( from DDS) because everyone has their own experience.

 

[Quattro DMD]

I go to a private dental school so I'll be looking at 360k plus interest so ~400k by the time I graduate next year. I'm planning on doing a perio residency, so add another 50k to the tab. Once I'm out, I plan to live very very frugally, giving myself a salary of maybe 50-60k/year and using the rest to save for retirement and pay down my student loans. I think it's doable to pay off the debt, but you can't exactly live like a rockstar dentist straight out of school. Also, depending on if you want to purchase a practice or be an associate and buy into one, you'll want to pay down your student loan debt ASAP. Overall it's gonna be rough but it's manageable.

 

[Predent25]

I go to a private dental school so I'll be looking at 360k plus interest so ~400k by the time I graduate next year. I'm planning on doing a perio residency, so add another 50k to the tab. Once I'm out, I plan to live very very frugally, giving myself a salary of maybe 50-60k/year and using the rest to save for retirement and pay down my student loans. I think it's doable to pay off the debt, but you can't exactly live like a rockstar dentist straight out of school. Also, depending on if you want to purchase a practice or be an associate and buy into one, you'll want to pay down your student loan debt ASAP. Overall it's gonna be rough but it's manageable.

Sounds like a great plan. I live frugally now, research isn't such a lucrative field so I think I could manage a reasonable lifestyle. Thank you for your input.

 

[bikedoc]

First, no one here can tell you whether or not it will be worth it. Some individuals have their own idea of how much a dental education is worth.

Second, Senpai has their information wrong. The going rate in CA, which is extremely saturated, is approx. 450/day. Do this 5-6 days a week and your looking at a 1st year associate gross income of some where in the 108K-129K range in a horrible market. If you are willing to move, your income will drastically change for the better. Additionally, your income is ONLY going to go up from here. I would not be surprised to see a general dentist somewhere in the 200K ball park 3-5 years out. With this kind of money, you can easily manage your debt if you live smart. By 10 years out, you should be in your prime. If you specialize, the 350k will be a drop in the bucket.

Hope this helps.

I think this post is right on!

First, you have to ask yourself do you love what you do? Do you love the idea of being a dentist? If the answer is yes then it is tough to put a price tag on your career. Six figure debt is quite a bit, but you will be highly employable with a skill that will enable you to make good money as well as work for yourself in the future. Despite some of the doomsday blog posts about our field, I have plenty of friends who are doing well in general dentistry. It is harder to make it in dense areas like SoCal, but its still doable! Friends of mine who are working in less dense areas are doing quite well.

Public health is a good way to pay off some dental school debt as well as build your speed. This could be a good option for a few years.

If you really want to be a dentist, I would commit to a program and live within your means. If you love what you do, you will do it well and the money will be there.

 

[Predent25]

I think this post is right on!

First, you have to ask yourself do you love what you do? Do you love the idea of being a dentist? If the answer is yes then it is tough to put a price tag on your career. Six figure debt is quite a bit, but you will be highly employable with a skill that will enable you to make good money as well as work for yourself in the future. Despite some of the doomsday blog posts about our field, I have plenty of friends who are doing well in general dentistry. It is harder to make it in dense areas like SoCal, but its still doable! Friends of mine who are working in less dense areas are doing quite well.

Public health is a good way to pay off some dental school debt as well as build your speed. This could be a good option for a few years.

If you really want to be a dentist, I would commit to a program and live within your means. If you love what you do, you will do it well and the money will be there.

Well said!

 

[mixoma]

340k is way too much, IMO. Beyond the opportunity cost of a dental education. The first decade of practicing only expect to make 75-120k maybe. Then you can inch your way up to 150k with few hitting 200k.
Not worth it. Anything more than 250k is beyond the opportunity cost IMO.

I dont really know what you are talking about. Most in state schools you will have 200-250k in debt these days and 300k+ if you are out of state. At my school there are plenty of people with 350K+ in debt, they will just have to stretch the life of there payments out but will probably do ok in the long run. Within the next 5-10 years 350K in debt will be the norm for a DDS in state, my tuition alone went up more than 25% the 4 years I was in school. I could see 80-120k the first year or two out of school, if I made that for a decade I would off my self.

 

[yappy]

Young ones - (people who are 12-15) this is what you must do to get ahead:

@ 15 get your GED. Enroll in a 4 year and Ace every class.
Apply to dental school & HPSP your junior year of college.
Go to UOP (3yrs)
Serve 1 year to enroll in OMS residency
Do OMS residency for 4 years then do 4 years of payback

Now you're a 32 y/o OMS, have four years of experience, savings, and zero debt. Enjoy life.

 

[beannaithe]

I'm in my first year out of residency and paying back my student loans. I'm ~$270k in debt and paying it off as fast as possible. I consolidated and signed up for every single rebate program offered through my loan programs and I try to pay more then 2x the monthly amount to help get the principal down.

My advice in dental school is to live as frugally as possible. Get some saving as you get ready to go to school that you save only for a complete emergency (your car dies, you need an emergency trip home, etc) and don't touch it unless that emergency arises. Take out the max living expenses your first year, then put that aside in savings and try to live on only what you need. Then the following years, only take the amount of money that you NEED. I'd recommend a tight budget when it comes to food/fixed expenses. Also, give yourself a small budget of "fun money" each month to do with what you want (like drinks with classmates, etc) and when it's out, you're done for the month. Keep your car until it dies. Get a roommate. You get the idea of trying to be frugal in school, that will save a LOT of money when you're done...also, plan on living frugally when you're done so you can pay off the loans as quick as possible. Best advice I ever got was - pay off all your credit cards at the end of the month!!

The loans are managable once you get out of school as long as you budget accordingly. Don't plan to live like a dentist for several years...it just isn't going to happen. If you can't pay cash for it, you don't need it right now.

My experience with debt so far is watching my monthly salary pay down my dental school loans slowly. I rent an apartment with my husband. I drive a 10 year old car. I have little savings. My clothes come from Target. I don't buy what I don't need. We still have money to travel and go out, but we don't "live it up." My goal is to pay off my student loans in 7 years, so I'll be able to buy/buy in to a practice and get a good loan. It sucks watching my paycheck disappear like it does, but I have to say that I have it better then most. I love what I do and I would make the same decision to be a dentist if given a choice. So, to me, it has been worth it.

Haha, so rambling aside. My point is - if you know that you will like dentistry when you get out, then yes the debt is worth it. If you don't think that you will like it or do it "for the money", then the debt might not be worth it. Just don't expect it to be like winning the lottery because with the paycheck comes the repayment.

 

[Predent25]

I'm in my first year out of residency and paying back my student loans. I'm ~$270k in debt and paying it off as fast as possible. I consolidated and signed up for every single rebate program offered through my loan programs and I try to pay more then 2x the monthly amount to help get the principal down.

My advice in dental school is to live as frugally as possible. Get some saving as you get ready to go to school that you save only for a complete emergency (your car dies, you need an emergency trip home, etc) and don't touch it unless that emergency arises. Take out the max living expenses your first year, then put that aside in savings and try to live on only what you need. Then the following years, only take the amount of money that you NEED. I'd recommend a tight budget when it comes to food/fixed expenses. Also, give yourself a small budget of "fun money" each month to do with what you want (like drinks with classmates, etc) and when it's out, you're done for the month. Keep your car until it dies. Get a roommate. You get the idea of trying to be frugal in school, that will save a LOT of money when you're done...also, plan on living frugally when you're done so you can pay off the loans as quick as possible. Best advice I ever got was - pay off all your credit cards at the end of the month!!

The loans are managable once you get out of school as long as you budget accordingly. Don't plan to live like a dentist for several years...it just isn't going to happen. If you can't pay cash for it, you don't need it right now.

My experience with debt so far is watching my monthly salary pay down my dental school loans slowly. I rent an apartment with my husband. I drive a 10 year old car. I have little savings. My clothes come from Target. I don't buy what I don't need. We still have money to travel and go out, but we don't "live it up." My goal is to pay off my student loans in 7 years, so I'll be able to buy/buy in to a practice and get a good loan. It sucks watching my paycheck disappear like it does, but I have to say that I have it better then most. I love what I do and I would make the same decision to be a dentist if given a choice. So, to me, it has been worth it.

Haha, so rambling aside. My point is - if you know that you will like dentistry when you get out, then yes the debt is worth it. If you don't think that you will like it or do it "for the money", then the debt might not be worth it. Just don't expect it to be like winning the lottery because with the paycheck comes the repayment.

Thank you for the detailed response. I will certainly follow your advice on budgeting for during dental school. Can you defer your loans through residency?

 

[beannaithe]

Thank you for the detailed response. I will certainly follow your advice on budgeting for during dental school. Can you defer your loans through residency?

You're welcome. You can defer only if you go to a residency program that is affiliated with a college or dental school campus. I did a hospital-based GPR and could not defer because it was not associated with a school.

 

[griller]

You're welcome. You can defer only if you go to a residency program that is affiliated with a college or dental school campus. I did a hospital-based GPR and could not defer because it was not associated with a school.

You can at least get a forbearance if you are in a hospital GPR. That way you're not required to start paying your loans back until you're finished.

 

[Sublimazing]

I'm in a hospital GPR w no school...I'm on deferment

 

[Predent25]

Thanks guys, I appreciate your input. Anyone care to describe how they budgeted their loan money during dental school? I have had a decent salary a few years, and I gotta say, it'll be strange to live off loaned money. But it is an investment, I know. Anyone care to share how they budgeted their "fun" money? Thanks docs

 

[hyogen]

i know when back in march when the first post was written, the interest rate was at 7% and it still is. A huge jump from the 1.5% it used to be several years ago....

also, with rising dental school tuition...it'll be very easy to rack up around $400K--probably more with living expenses especially if you're married, etc.

Can someone speak to this? From what I hear, a loan at 7% APR doubles every 7 years...this may not be entirely accurate, but a few people I have asked that are in finance industry or knowledgeable in this area say that it'll probably be maybe 8-9 years by the time it doubles. So, in 10 years the loan amount will be like $800K+ minus what you've paid down in those 10 years... How does paying it down work? Are you paying pretty much only interest in the first several years of repayment like paying off a mortgage?

I know some dentists who came out of school with around $250,000 at 1.5% interest saying that working for someone the first few years they were pulling in something like $40-50k after loans and taxes... That's not bad, but what about now that the interest rate has more than quadrupled and the cost of living and tuition is significantly higher? Even OHSU (Portland Oregon) the expected budget is going up to $90,000 per year--they just told me. I believe that includes living expense loans which isn't much especially if your'e married.

Also forgot to mention that none of our loans will be subsidized anymore...so we'll be accruing interest while we're in school. Not trying to be doom/gloom, but would like to hopefully be wrong about this daunting undertaking. I hope I am wrong about some of these numbers at very least.

Thanks

 

[dawglala]

I'm in my first year out of residency and paying back my student loans. I'm ~$270k in debt and paying it off as fast as possible. I consolidated and signed up for every single rebate program offered through my loan programs and I try to pay more then 2x the monthly amount to help get the principal down.

My advice in dental school is to live as frugally as possible. Get some saving as you get ready to go to school that you save only for a complete emergency (your car dies, you need an emergency trip home, etc) and don't touch it unless that emergency arises. Take out the max living expenses your first year, then put that aside in savings and try to live on only what you need. Then the following years, only take the amount of money that you NEED. I'd recommend a tight budget when it comes to food/fixed expenses. Also, give yourself a small budget of "fun money" each month to do with what you want (like drinks with classmates, etc) and when it's out, you're done for the month. Keep your car until it dies. Get a roommate. You get the idea of trying to be frugal in school, that will save a LOT of money when you're done...also, plan on living frugally when you're done so you can pay off the loans as quick as possible. Best advice I ever got was - pay off all your credit cards at the end of the month!!

The loans are managable once you get out of school as long as you budget accordingly. Don't plan to live like a dentist for several years...it just isn't going to happen. If you can't pay cash for it, you don't need it right now.

My experience with debt so far is watching my monthly salary pay down my dental school loans slowly. I rent an apartment with my husband. I drive a 10 year old car. I have little savings. My clothes come from Target. I don't buy what I don't need. We still have money to travel and go out, but we don't "live it up." My goal is to pay off my student loans in 7 years, so I'll be able to buy/buy in to a practice and get a good loan. It sucks watching my paycheck disappear like it does, but I have to say that I have it better then most. I love what I do and I would make the same decision to be a dentist if given a choice. So, to me, it has been worth it.

Haha, so rambling aside. My point is - if you know that you will like dentistry when you get out, then yes the debt is worth it. If you don't think that you will like it or do it "for the money", then the debt might not be worth it. Just don't expect it to be like winning the lottery because with the paycheck comes the repayment.

Thank you so much for your advice. I am one of those who are going into dentistry just for the money, and I am having a huge doubt right now if I should still pursue it (will be starting school this August). When I shadowed dentists I was in awe of their skills but was not totally in love with it. How did you know you would love being a dentist? What do you love about what you do? Is dentistry something that you will grow to love once you started working?

 

[KAIN DDS]

Sounds like a great plan. I live frugally now, research isn't such a lucrative field so I think I could manage a reasonable lifestyle. Thank you for your input.

Isn't that sad that research pays so little

 

[KAIN DDS]

Young ones - (people who are 12-15) this is what you must do to get ahead:

@ 15 get your GED. Enroll in a 4 year and Ace every class.
Apply to dental school & HPSP your junior year of college.
Go to UOP (3yrs)
Serve 1 year to enroll in OMS residency
Do OMS residency for 4 years then do 4 years of payback

Now you're a 32 y/o OMS, have four years of experience, savings, and zero debt. Enjoy life.

Lmao great one love it

 

[doubledizzle13]

I think we're right at the breaking point of a bubble where a lot of dentists will struggle to survive with the debt load. I have talked to and read the opinions of many practicing dentists that struggled with less debt and it definitely concerns me as a dental resident with >350k in debt and 2 more years to accrue intrest. It's sickening when you see your debt repayment schedules at the end of dental school and try to imagine paying $4000/month in loan payments for 15 years or $2000/month for 30 years.(The I.B.R plan is the only program that will end up bailing out a lot of my classmates I would wager, especially at the beginning of their careers.) I think that having to practice dentistry with this burden on one's mind at all times will create a ton of additional stress taking a lot of the enjoyment out of dentistry (it's already stressful enough), in addition to a generation of desperate students,a large portion of which will sell their souls to sketchy corporate dental chains just to pay the bills.

 

[etm125]

I think we're right at the breaking point of a bubble where a lot of dentists will struggle to survive with the debt load. I have talked to and read the opinions of many practicing dentists that struggled with less debt and it definitely concerns me as a dental resident with >350k in debt and 2 more years to accrue intrest. It's sickening when you see your debt repayment schedules at the end of dental school and try to imagine paying $4000/month in loan payments for 15 years or $2000/month for 30 years.(The I.B.R plan is the only program that will end up bailing out a lot of my classmates I would wager, especially at the beginning of their careers.) I think that having to practice dentistry with this burden on one's mind at all times will create a ton of additional stress taking a lot of the enjoyment out of dentistry (it's already stressful enough), in addition to a generation of desperate students,a large portion of which will sell their souls to sketchy corporate dental chains just to pay the bills.

I'm with you on the debt bubble. There has to be some breaking point at which it just doesn't make financial sense to be a GD. It has happened for GPs in med. I'm about to start at NYUCD and the estimated cost of attendance is up to $109,000. Half my loans are at 6.8% and the other half are at 7.9%. These are not subsidized so interest accrues while I'm at school. So we're talking half a million dollars by the time I finish. I really don't think it's viable without some sort of public loan forgiveness or military option.

Cheers for dentistry. It was a nice profession while it lasted.

 

[maksidaa]

I know this thread is a bit old, but I wanted to add my opinion to the mix for people still on the fence.

I have $270k in debt w/ 1 yr left in residency. I will make between $200-250k per yr once I get out in the real world, and then work up from there. I will also pay about $36k a yr in loan repayment, $60-70k per yr in taxes, $20k per yr for insurances of various kinds, and have about $75k left to live off of and put towards retirement. It's not a bad setup, but I want to warn everyone that you should generally never go into debt for your education much higher than your anticipated yearly income. If you are going to be a general dentist, you shouldn't accumulate much more than about $120-150k in debt. If I had the debt I do now and was going to make "only" $120k, I would be scared to death. After taxes, insurances, and loan repayments, I would have about $45k left to pay for EVERYTHING I will ever need in life for my family. At that income level, I would be better off as a high school teacher w/ summers off, full benefits, and a good retirement plan. And I'm being serious.

If you are going to be a general dentist, $350k in student loans is financial suicide. And don't try to tell yourself you're going to be frugal and make it work. You can't beat the numbers.

 

[byuAD]

I know this thread is a bit old, but I wanted to add my opinion to the mix for people still on the fence.

I have $270k in debt w/ 1 yr left in residency. I will make between $200-250k per yr once I get out in the real world, and then work up from there. I will also pay about $36k a yr in loan repayment, $60-70k per yr in taxes, $20k per yr for insurances of various kinds, and have about $75k left to live off of and put towards retirement. It's not a bad setup, but I want to warn everyone that you should generally never go into debt for your education much higher than your anticipated yearly income. If you are going to be a general dentist, you shouldn't accumulate much more than about $120-150k in debt. If I had the debt I do now and was going to make "only" $120k, I would be scared to death. After taxes, insurances, and loan repayments, I would have about $45k left to pay for EVERYTHING I will ever need in life for my family. At that income level, I would be better off as a high school teacher w/ summers off, full benefits, and a good retirement plan. And I'm being serious.

If you are going to be a general dentist, $350k in student loans is financial suicide. And don't try to tell yourself you're going to be frugal and make it work. You can't beat the numbers.

Really? If this is the case then 90% of students are committing financial suicide (according to this PDF, depicting debt of every dental school - most of which are underestimated). There are a minority of schools that allow students to graduate with less than 200k. It's just not feasible anymore.

 

[hyogen]

Really? If this is the case then 90% of students are committing financial suicide (according to this PDF, depicting debt of every dental school - most of which are underestimated). There are a minority of schools that allow students to graduate with less than 200k. It's just not feasible anymore.

what's scary is that this may be true for the majority now...

I'm gonna quote myself here since no one seems to be thinking/talking about the interest.

like the guy 2 posts above me said, I could be making only $45k a year if I am making $120k/year as a dentist......

You need to be making much more, own your own *successful* practice in order to start making more. Remember, you have to take out loans for a practice as well... right now it's seller's market--no one is selling their practice so the prices are sky high as well... I've heard of my dentist friends talking about dentist(s) they know that are losing something like $30-50,000 a month............because their new practice isn't doing well... Let's not forget overhead costs--my dentist who is also my friend says he pays $50,000 a month in overhead.. staff, lease, equipment, computer software....like scheduling software costs like $200,000?! Something insane.... Anyway, not trying to be doom and gloom. I gotta get past this DAT first before I start really worrying about this..

i know when back in march when the first post was written, the interest rate was at 7% and it still is. A huge jump from the 1.5% it used to be several years ago....

also, with rising dental school tuition...it'll be very easy to rack up around $400K--probably more with living expenses especially if you're married, etc.

Can someone speak to this? From what I hear, a loan at 7% APR doubles every 7 years...this may not be entirely accurate, but a few people I have asked that are in finance industry or knowledgeable in this area say that it'll probably be maybe 8-9 years by the time it doubles. So, in 10 years the loan amount will be like $800K+ minus what you've paid down in those 10 years... How does paying it down work? Are you paying pretty much only interest in the first several years of repayment like paying off a mortgage?

I know some dentists who came out of school with around $250,000 at 1.5% interest saying that working for someone the first few years they were pulling in something like $40-50k after loans and taxes... That's not bad, but what about now that the interest rate has more than quadrupled and the cost of living and tuition is significantly higher? Even OHSU (Portland Oregon) the expected budget is going up to $90,000 per year--they just told me. I believe that includes living expense loans which isn't much especially if your'e married.

Also forgot to mention that none of our loans will be subsidized anymore...so we'll be accruing interest while we're in school. Not trying to be doom/gloom, but would like to hopefully be wrong about this daunting undertaking. I hope I am wrong about some of these numbers at very least.

Thanks

 

[theleatherwalle]

First, no one here can tell you whether or not it will be worth it. Some individuals have their own idea of how much a dental education is worth.

Second, Senpai has their information wrong. The going rate in CA, which is extremely saturated, is approx. 450/day. Do this 5-6 days a week and your looking at a 1st year associate gross income of some where in the 108K-129K range in a horrible market. If you are willing to move, your income will drastically change for the better. Additionally, your income is ONLY going to go up from here. I would not be surprised to see a general dentist somewhere in the 200K ball park 3-5 years out. With this kind of money, you can easily manage your debt if you live smart. By 10 years out, you should be in your prime. If you specialize, the 350k will be a drop in the bucket.

Hope this helps.

I know this thread is a bit old, but I wanted to add my opinion to the mix for people still on the fence.

I have $270k in debt w/ 1 yr left in residency. I will make between $200-250k per yr once I get out in the real world, and then work up from there. I will also pay about $36k a yr in loan repayment, $60-70k per yr in taxes, $20k per yr for insurances of various kinds, and have about $75k left to live off of and put towards retirement. It's not a bad setup, but I want to warn everyone that you should generally never go into debt for your education much higher than your anticipated yearly income. If you are going to be a general dentist, you shouldn't accumulate much more than about $120-150k in debt. If I had the debt I do now and was going to make "only" $120k, I would be scared to death. After taxes, insurances, and loan repayments, I would have about $45k left to pay for EVERYTHING I will ever need in life for my family. At that income level, I would be better off as a high school teacher w/ summers off, full benefits, and a good retirement plan. And I'm being serious.

If you are going to be a general dentist, $350k in student loans is financial suicide. And don't try to tell yourself you're going to be frugal and make it work. You can't beat the numbers.

To the first guy who posted: Please tell me how you plan to make that much in southern california 5 years out. I would love to set up shop with you.

To the other guy: Opportunity cost is very true, but honestly he won't make 120 a year h'll prolly be making about 150 to 180 for most of his life.

Honestly be frugal, try not to have under-grad debt...im honestly starting to think they should allow D3 or D4s to make a little money doing some procedures. I was once talking to a few of my classmates and they broke dental school money issues like this.

D1: Yes we're in! lets take pictures, and go out, and have fun. whoo white coat ceremonies. We're all gonna love each other and never get mad when someone snatches a good patient. Eh this is expensive, but ill be fine.
D2: So much work...crap boards.....doesn't notice how much money they're spending
D3: Whoo patients were almost there!.....doesn't know how much money they're spending
D4: HOLY HELL HOW AM I IN SO MUCH DEBT. I NEED TO PASS THE BOARDS AND GET LICENSED AND GET A JOB.

Basically you don't want to be the D4 wondering wtf you just did in 3 years. Keep up with your money.

 

[hyogen]

I guess the guy who posted after me deleted his post? He was saying something like he wouldn't be surprised if a general dentist started to make $200,000 a year within a few years..............How do you figure? The average income of dentists hasn't changed in.............I dunno....20 years?? It hasn't really kept up with inflation, etc... Although a general dentist is a wider range of procedures, I highly doubt the average will jump that much. I'd like to be optimistic, however.

Don't forget about income tax, either!!!!!!!! We'll be in a pretty high bracket that's for sure.. the best way to lessen that would be to own your own successful practice.

 

[luvnluc]

We are talking over here of student loans. so where does the loan for buying that dream house or dream car or dream vacation fit in. Obviously people chose dentistry so that they can buy all that. If the beginning of our career is on 300k back foot, it is not a very pleasant thought to start your career with. Most of the posts have a negative ring to them.Is there no hope?

 

[theleatherwalle]

there are no guarantees in life.

your practice may fail
the pretty house you bought in the bubble may now be only worth half its value
you may have a stroke in your late 40s and lose your ability to practice dentistry(happened to a dentist i know)

make the best decisions with the knowledge you have available.
dentistry is a great career. if you enter: pharmacy, medicine, dentistry, optometry, or even veterinary school. You will have a good standard of life. You may not be making 250k and living the life, but you will likely be making anywhere from 100-200k and enjoying your life. If this amount of debt wasn't worth it, people wouldn't do it.

 

[hyogen]

We are talking over here of student loans. so where does the loan for buying that dream house or dream car or dream vacation fit in. Obviously people chose dentistry so that they can buy all that. If the beginning of our career is on 300k back foot, it is not a very pleasant thought to start your career with. Most of the posts have a negative ring to them.Is there no hope?

this is even more reason why you should choose a career based on what you will love doing/are passionate about. You're right--I think a lot of people do go into dentistry so that they can "buy all that" and not because they love working on peoples' mouths and teeth so much.

most of these posts have a negative ring to them because that's just the way it is now... Lots of people flock to dental school still because it wasn't too long ago that the "deal" was still really good..

these are some glaringly obvious changes that happened in just the past few years.

Please feel free to correct me if I'm exaggerating any of these numbers...I don't believe I am..

• 4-5 TIMES higher interest rate.
• NO subsidized loans anymore....your entire loan will accrue interest while you're in school
• much higher tuitions....where dental school used to cost $150,000 twenty years ago...even $250,000 or so several years ago....now we're looking at almost $400,000 (including cost of living). Even public schools are becoming crazy expensive
• At the current 7% interest, our amount owed essentially doubles every 9 years or so (I've been told between 7-9 years)......so we're looking at paying about $1.5million over the course of 20 years....this is just for the education
• People used to be able to consolidate their loans at 1.5% APR....and not accrue interest on the entire loan amount until 6 months after graduation... gone are those days.
• Not to mention that dentistry (unlike other health professions) usually requires a lot of overhead--$500,000 for a practice is a cheap practice...and are nonexistent right now... there is interest that you'll be paying on that loan as well....
• Liability insurance continues to go up.
• HMO/ insurance BS will continue to get worse for everyone like it always has...
• Lots of areas are ultra saturated with dentists.
• Dentists have been hit pretty hard by the economy in the past several years--just like everyone else.
• Dentist practices do fail--Some people will be lucky and can be bailed out by family or previously acquired wealth, but the majority will be pretty SOL with huge loans from school and equipment.
• I'm not sure how much it costs to set up a practice with all the equipment and stuff, but a couple of my dentist friends said their scheduling software alone was like $200,000.... A Cerec machine is like $300,000?
• I've been told by a couple friends that their overhead is around $50,000 a month from bills/rent/staff such as secretary, hygienists, assistants.
• In the past 20 years....how much has inflation/cost of living gone up? Minimum wage from 15 years ago, I can remember it being about half of what it is now (I'm in Oregon). As far as I remember, a general dentist made about $90,000-120,000 a year working for someone. This is still the case today...
• What I'm hearing is if you're not fast at procedures, you're not gonna have a successful practice and you'll have a harder time keeping a job. Most places you work for are going to want you to "drill-n-fill" as fast as possible

Now for some good news: Please by all means feel free to add to this list!

the housing market has crashed--.....but it is on the rise again...maybe price of real estate will be back up to where they were within the next 4-6 years when maybe we'll have graduated and saved enough money by working for someone to put some sort of down payment on a house......the $35-45,000 left over a year after taxes and loan payments for a starting dentist working for someone is a scary, but realistic number....you need to pay for rent, car, insurance, gas, food, kids? everything else with that--that's like $13/hour salary? - I'm sorry, that didn't really sound like good news..

It's expected for there to be lots of retiring baby boomers Prices of buying established practices should go down from their highly inflated state right now (it's a seller's market).

General dentists CAN do more procedures now than before and can potentially earn more--i.e. Invisalign, Cerec crowns...I think there's more..

I have heard that if you are willing to live in a rural, small city, you can be less effected by the economy and do better for yourself--not to mention, houses will be cheaper in rural areas.

there are no guarantees in life.

your practice may fail
the pretty house you bought in the bubble may now be only worth half its value
you may have a stroke in your late 40s and lose your ability to practice dentistry(happened to a dentist i know)

make the best decisions with the knowledge you have available.
dentistry is a great career. if you enter: pharmacy, medicine, dentistry, optometry, or even veterinary school. You will have a good standard of life. You may not be making 250k and living the life, but you will likely be making anywhere from 100-200k and enjoying your life. If this amount of debt wasn't worth it, people wouldn't do it.

very much agreed except for your last statement for a lot of people.. For people going into dentistry for the lifestyle that dentists have enjoyed--that kind of lifestyle is gonna take a very successful practice and frugal living like people have said. If you're smart enough/try hard enough you can be in the top 5% of your class and possibly specialize.. But even specialists are getting run out of business because of the wider scope of practice of a general dentist nowadays.

I hope this is not sounding too gloom and doom, but a realistic depiction of what this field has in store for us... It's good to be optimistic, but I think the best advice I've heard (and hated to hear) is do for a career what you love to do--what you'd do for free

My belief that God will have my back as always keeps me optimistic

Hopefully the best years are still ahead for all of us!

 

[charlestweed]

Just some random responses since it is a slow boring morning at work.

I think a lot of people do go into dentistry so that they can "buy all that" and not because they love working on peoples' mouths and teeth so much.

Yes, I am one of these people. I love orthodontics (and have practiced for 10+ years) because it has provided good and stable income for me and my family. When you have kids, you'll see why it is more important to have a stable job than to have a job that you love. Do I love working on people's mouth? No, not so much and this is why I prefer my chairside assistants do most of the manual labor for me.

• HMO/ insurance BS will continue to get worse for everyone like it always has...
• Lots of areas are ultra saturated with dentists.
• Dentists have been hit pretty hard by the economy in the past several years--just like everyone else.
• Dentist practices do fail--Some people will be lucky and can be bailed out by family or previously acquired wealth, but the majority will be pretty SOL with huge loans from school and equipment.

• 
  Yes, all of these are true. In the late 90s, California medicaid used to pay for crowns, fillings, dentures etc for both adults and children. Now, adult patients no longer qualify for medicaid.
  
  

  [*]I'm not sure how much it costs to set up a practice with all the equipment and stuff, but a couple of my dentist friends said their scheduling software alone was like $200,000.... A Cerec machine is like $300,000?
  [*]I've been told by a couple friends that their overhead is around $50,000 a month from bills/rent/staff such as secretary, hygienists, assistants.

  Why waste $200k when a $10 appointment book can accomplish the same thing? Why waste $300k (I think it's more like $100K but that's still a lot of money) on a Cerec machine when the local labs (in California) only charge you $50-75 a crown...and your patients get better shade selection and fewer marginal leakage problems. Start a simple office first. When the business gets better, you can always buy those expensive toys later. I have 3 ortho practices and the combined monthly overhead for all 3 are under $30k. After 10 + years, I still have no plan to upgrade my equipments for I want to keep more of my hard earned money....if it aint broken, why fix (or replace) it.
  
  

  [*]In the past 20 years....how much has inflation/cost of living gone up? Minimum wage from 15 years ago, I can remember it being about half of what it is now (I'm in Oregon). As far as I remember, a general dentist made about $90,000-120,000 a year working for someone. This is still the case today...

  The starting salary for dentists in the late 90s was only $70-80k/year but they seemed to have better lifestyle and were a lot happier than today new grads. This was because they didn't have high student loan debt and everything was cheaper in the late 90s. A decent 4bed house in CA used to cost 200-300k....now, it costs 600k+
  
  

  General dentists CAN do more procedures now than before and can potentially earn more--i.e. Invisalign, Cerec crowns...I think there's more...

  Sure, technology has allowed the GPs do more procedures but that's not the hard part. The hard part is to find enough patients to perform these procedures and to keep you busy. It is extremely saturated here in CA and I am sure it will be the same in other states because of the openings of new dental schools. And an even harder task is to convince your patients to accept the treatment plan you recommended. For many people, teeth are not their #1 priority. People would rather pay for something else such as iphone, handbag, car etc.
  
  

  My belief that God will have my back as always keeps me optimistic

  

 

[hyogen]

I just got a PM from a member agreeing with my post (2 posts above).. I was actually hoping to be corrected in some of my numbers... I feel that perhaps most people will never see this post and blindly rush into school without realizing the reality of today's situation (as opposed to just a handful of years ago)..

Quite big changes to say the very least.....

Or is this knowledge that most people have and are still pursuing dentistry? Back when I was like 21-22 years old, this information would have gone in one ear and out the next without second thought--perhaps we should bring more attention to these very huge changes? (especially if none of the points I made are refutable....)

 

[Contach]

I go to a private dental school where the estimated cost of attendance for 4 years is probably around $400k.

It seems that a lot of us aren't taking out the full $400k in loans. You'll find students on the HPSP (army scholarship), parents (often physicians or dentists) are paying for their son/daughter's education, random scholarships (minority scholarships, school entrance scholarships).

So while some pre-dents here may be thinking: "But wow that school has 80 students/class and they are all making it work, it can't be that bad for me," consider that some of those students may be fortunate enough to have a source of money that is not student loans.

I'm scared to bring up this topic to some of my classmates who are taking out $400k in student loans. I don't want to be the bearer of bad news.