D4 with 350K D-school Loans + Endo debt

[ayed22]

Finishing dental school with about $350k in loans (after interest). I was fortunate enough to also get into endo as a D4, but that will add another $220k in loans. It's a few months before the program starts and I am stating to get cold feet due to the cost. What would you do if you were in my shoes?

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[FutureDent020]

You’re going to endo residency and already know, that but I’ll play along….It’s honestly probably a wash if you are planning on being an associate in each field. You’ll make about 2x as much as Endodontic associate but you’ll also have about 2x as much debt. With that kind of debt, opening a practice or buying a nice house will have to be put on hold unless your spouse does well, so it just depends on what you want to do with your life. GL in residency though. It’s great career… if you like Endo and hard cases.

 

[Cheeriosnuthoney]

Specializing in endo, you will be financially fine even with all the debt. It'll be helpful if they are some form of federal loans that offer you flexibility during the initial years, but either way, you WILL be able to pay off your loans as an endodontist. However there's no doubt that you'd have greater financial success as a GP if you make that a priority as a GP.

Personally I wouldn't do endo for the money because I don't think it'd be worth it at a tuition program. But I'd do it if you're sure you'd enjoy being an endodontist more than being a star associate GP or an owner GP. What do you think?

Also, what is the policy on moonlighting at your program? I've definitely heard of some endo residents making enough on the weekends to pay off their tuition.

 

[chlrbwls]

Just to throw it out there too, if you are an adventurous guy, there are more entrepreneurial opportunities as a gen den than as a endodontist

 

[InspiredDDS]

Don’t take all these comments to heart. I graduated Endo residency with $672,000. Bought a $575,000 house 6 months later. (BTW If buying a house is a priority, don’t take a 1099 job.) Spouse was making about 60k at the time. I make a fantastic living working about 4 days per week.

2.5 years later my loans are at $447,000, which is about what they were at the end of DS. We have a nice pile of cash in the bank and max out our 401ks too. You may have to do a lot of traveling and work corporate to make a great income in your first couple of years unless you find an amazing associate position, which isn’t impossible to do either. If you like Endo, go for it and don’t look back.

 

[luisfigo]

Endo makes bank, get into ownership don't look back

 

[D1Bound]

You will bring home a cool 700k plus if you hustle at endo, so I hear. I’d do it if I loved endo

 

[theEuglena]

You will bring home a cool 700k plus if you hustle at endo, so I hear. I’d do it if I loved endo

Same people telling you GP's make 500K easy if you hustle lol

 

[FutureDent020]

The reality of being an endodontist is you are probably going to be an associate these days out of residency. Some will both be in a position to start their own and want to do it. I can’t speak for them and what their earnings are. I do know that route is a slow, hard process, but extremely rewarding once it gets going.

For the associates, most offers are between 40-45% collections. Some smaller or more remote areas could be a percentage of production rather than collection. With US Endo and Endo 1 grabbing up a bunch of practices you’ll also have a 401K and health insurance. In my group collections per month range from $70K- $120K depending on speed and experience. So let’s say you get 45% of the $70K as a younger doc. That puts you at about $32,000. Now you contribute to 401K which is about $1500 and also health insurance deduction. So now you are down to $30K. Now taxes. If you are doing $30K a month you’ll be taxed about 30%+. So that now goes to $20K/ month.

Run those same numbers with the older partners and it’s about a $30K/ month take home after taxes/ deductions.

This is in a city in the south east btw. So it’s good money, and you are only seeing 6-8 patients a day, but your “take home” is a bit more modest that “$700K”

 

[D1Bound]

Same people telling you GP's make 500K easy if you hustle lol

That’s not that hard for a dentist to be able to earn that much money.

 

[charlestweed]

That’s not that hard for a dentist to be able to earn that much money.

If you are willing to do whatever it takes bring home an annual income of $300k (or more) a year, then having a student loan debt amount of 5-600k shouldn't be a huge issue. It's also a plus if you have a spouse who works.

 

[FutureDent020]

That’s not that hard for a dentist to be able to earn that much money.

Legit question because I never worked as a private practice GP, but what’s a realistic scenario would this would be “not hard to do”?

 

[D1Bound]

Legit question because I never worked as a private practice GP, but what’s a realistic scenario would this would be “not hard to do”?

Dentistry helps you get other cash flow streams going. It's a lot harder for someone without a strong base income to do anything. A dentist pulling a solid base income could easily have other ventures that makes cash

 

[Digitalangel]

DO the endo. I finally got into endo after three years. being a GP sucks. Thankfully I got into a paid endo though (400k debt from DS)

 

[AONLINE]

As an endodontist you can make $800k-$1 mil working for a corporate, traveling to different locations 5 days a week, running 2 columns of RCTs with 13-16 patients everyday.

 

[Toriremoval]

Take what is said with a grain of salt. Honestly, what you are asking can only be decided for yourself obviously right? People here are saying/stating salaries and circumstances that may not pertain to you or maybe it will who knows. The loan amount is of course not small we don't know your financial situation it may be devastating to your future it may not who can say? Get a financial advisor maybe. What I'm trying to say is talk to people that is more close to you to get a better picture and what you want/not want for yourself in the future. But if you believe after endo residency you will make 400k - 1mill and that doesn't happen you will be devastated be more grounded in case that doesn't happen. I had a few other specialty friends that thought they would make a lot and they didn't and it took a toll on them. Vice versa I had friends go into specialties thinking they would make a modest salary and they were ok with it but they ended up making more than they thought. Everything I am saying to you there's multiple views/sides to it. Talk with your love ones and go with your gut that's the best way to do these decisions. I hope the best for you.

 

[yappy]

As an endodontist you can make $800k-$1 mil working for a corporate, traveling to different locations 5 days a week, running 2 columns of RCTs with 13-16 patients everyday.

RIP their patient’s teeth

 

[FutureDent020]

RIP their patient’s teeth

Yea, I don’t like the idea of being someone’s 12th root canal procedure of the day

 

[GoDental101]

As an endodontist you can make $800k-$1 mil working for a corporate, traveling to different locations 5 days a week, running 2 columns of RCTs with 13-16 patients everyday.

I can't help but imagine how many MB2 canals are missed each day in a setting like that. That isn't the type of work environment that 99% of the type of people that go into endo are going to be ok working in. Especially since as an endodontist you are mostly getting the challenging cases that were referred by the GP for a reason.

 

[schmoob]

As an endodontist you can make $800k-$1 mil working for a corporate, traveling to different locations 5 days a week, running 2 columns of RCTs with 13-16 patients everyday.

That doesn’t even add up to $800K in production alone.

 

[DentGent13]

That doesn’t even add up to $800K in production alone.

Wym? RCTs at $700+ * 13 patients a day * 240 days = $2m+.

 

[schmoob]

Wym? RCTs at $700+ * 13 patients a day * 240 days = $2m+.

Wow crazy brainfart on my end. You’re right, I didn’t math right.

That’s still a lot of pts a day.

 

[AONLINE]

This is the 2021 production of the highest-producing specialists of a big corporate that most of us here have heard of. The specialists get paid 40-45% of their production, so you can do the math yourself. I’ve seen the work of one of those 2 highest-producing endodontists. All I can say is that I never want to send my family to that specialist.

 

[redchesus]

View attachment 351441
This is the 2021 production of the highest-producing specialists of a big corporate that most of us here have heard of. The specialists get paid 40-45% of their production, so you can do the math yourself. I’ve seen the work of one of those 2 highest-producing endodontists. All I can say is that I never want to send my family to that specialist.

These are the endodontists that you are said are running 2 columns and seeing 13-16 patients a day?

 

[schmoob]

View attachment 351441
This is the 2021 production of the highest-producing specialists of a big corporate that most of us here have heard of. The specialists get paid 40-45% of their production, so you can do the math yourself. I’ve seen the work of one of those 2 highest-producing endodontists. All I can say is that I never want to send my family to that specialist.

Production numbers can always be skewed. Is that UCR or contracted rates? It makes a very big difference.

 

[Digitalangel]

View attachment 351441
This is the 2021 production of the highest-producing specialists of a big corporate that most of us here have heard of. The specialists get paid 40-45% of their production, so you can do the math yourself. I’ve seen the work of one of those 2 highest-producing endodontists. All I can say is that I never want to send my family to that specialist.

crazy, i already did corp as a GP and it was hell. i am starting endo residency soon and when im done there is absolutely no way i will ever work corporate again.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

As an endodontist you can make $800k-$1 mil working for a corporate, traveling to different locations 5 days a week, running 2 columns of RCTs with 13-16 patients everyday.

I had a friend doing exactly that. He burned out within 6 months and quit.

Big Hoss

 

[AONLINE]

These are the endodontists that you are said are running 2 columns and seeing 13-16 patients a day?

Yes. As far as I know, that endodontist has been with this corp for a few years now.

 

[odontoblaster90210]

View attachment 351441
This is the 2021 production of the highest-producing specialists of a big corporate that most of us here have heard of. The specialists get paid 40-45% of their production, so you can do the math yourself. I’ve seen the work of one of those 2 highest-producing endodontists. All I can say is that I never want to send my family to that specialist.

Is this Aspen or Heartland?

 

[PerioDont]

honestly being a specialist is way better than being a GP imo. I’d do the endo residency.

It will likely be a wash financially initially but you can be very comfortable after a few year as an endo.

If you are the business type like TanMan on here with max efficiency you are wasting your time in endo and should be a GP owner ASAP.

 

[cmsmith85]

Biased opinion here, but I say go for the Endo residency as well. You're already in the academic mode so another 2 years now is easier than coming back later for residency. Yeah, loans will be up there above 600k by the time you're done, but it will be manageable afterwards. I had over 500k from dental school and am adding another 220k for endo. Still worth it for me.

 

[GoDental101]

Biased opinion here, but I say go for the Endo residency as well. You're already in the academic mode so another 2 years now is easier than coming back later for residency. Yeah, loans will be up there above 600k by the time you're done, but it will be manageable afterwards. I had over 500k from dental school and am adding another 220k for endo. Still worth it for me.

Most are three years. Did she say it was two?

 

[cmsmith85]

Most are three years. Did she say it was two?

I don't think the majority are 3 years, but I could be wrong. I only applied to 2 year programs, so I just assumed it was two. But you're right, it could be 2 and a half or 3.

 

[schmoob]

Over 2 is usually with a Masters.

 

[GoDental101]

I don't think the majority are 3 years, but I could be wrong. I only applied to 2 year programs, so I just assumed it was two. But you're right, it could be 2 and a half or 3.

Oh I didn't know that...that's pretty cool. My guess is hers is a three year simply due to the price tag of 220k, but idk maybe it's a really pricey two year. Rather pay more to be done in two years than three years anyways haha

 

[RollingDDS]

Oh I didn't know that...that's pretty cool. My guess is hers is a three year simply due to the price tag of 220k, but idk maybe it's a really pricey two year. Rather pay more to be done in two years than three years anyways haha

Probably UOP. I recall seeing $110k per year somewhere

 

[cmsmith85]

Over 2 is usually with a Masters.

Unless you're a masochist and like torture, then you do a 2 year residency with a Master's like I'm doing...haha

 

[cmsmith85]

Over 2 is usually with a Masters.

But yeah, almost every other residency is more than 2 years if you want a Master's. My program is just different.

 

[Colastick]

Don’t take all these comments to heart. I graduated Endo residency with $672,000. Bought a $575,000 house 6 months later. (BTW If buying a house is a priority, don’t take a 1099 job.) Spouse was making about 60k at the time. I make a fantastic living working about 4 days per week.

2.5 years later my loans are at $447,000, which is about what they were at the end of DS. We have a nice pile of cash in the bank and max out our 401ks too. You may have to do a lot of traveling and work corporate to make a great income in your first couple of years unless you find an amazing associate position, which isn’t impossible to do either. If you like Endo, go for it and don’t look back.

Just curious, what makes you say don't take a 1099 job if buying a house is a priority?

 

[cmsmith85]

Just curious, what makes you say don't take a 1099 job if buying a house is a priority?

You usually need 2 years of tax returns before you can get a loan if you're being paid through a 1099. With a W2, it only takes one year of tax returns. Granted, there are some options out there to get a loan before 2 years with a 1099, but it's definitely a lot harder.

 

[702]

View attachment 351441
This is the 2021 production of the highest-producing specialists of a big corporate that most of us here have heard of. The specialists get paid 40-45% of their production, so you can do the math yourself. I’ve seen the work of one of those 2 highest-producing endodontists. All I can say is that I never want to send my family to that specialist.

Actually surprised ortho it at the bottom.

 

[cmjacks5]

DO the endo. I finally got into endo after three years. being a GP sucks. Thankfully I got into a paid endo though (400k debt from DS)

Lol Congrats!! This was my same scenario. Endo isn’t easy by far but I LOVE what I’m doing.

 

[cmjacks5]

Biased opinion here, but I say go for the Endo residency as well. You're already in the academic mode so another 2 years now is easier than coming back later for residency. Yeah, loans will be up there above 600k by the time you're done, but it will be manageable afterwards. I had over 500k from dental school and am adding another 220k for endo. Still worth it for me.

Now this is true! Transitioning back to school mode after 6 years out is harddd!!!

 

[cmjacks5]

Money aside do you enjoy/ love doing endo? If your answer is a resounding “no” or “I can see my self doing this” I would think twice. I’m a first year resident and endo isn’t easy. Don’t just decide to do a speciality because of things you hear about being a GP. Even tho I am in endo now, I enjoyed my time as a GP there are aspects of GP I miss. However, I love endo more than any crown or class II. I know I will make money being an endodontist but that wasn’t my driving factor to be a specialist. It actually was kinda “last” on my list.

 

[2TH MVR]

Finishing dental school with about $350k in loans (after interest). I was fortunate enough to also get into endo as a D4, but that will add another $220k in loans. It's a few months before the program starts and I am stating to get cold feet due to the cost. What would you do if you were in my shoes?

Do it. It's a no brainer.

 

[coralteeth]

Go to endo. You will be better than ok compared to the average GP. I don’t know any endo who regrets endo, but I know a lot of GPs who regret dentistry as a whole.

 

[Andrew StudentLoanAdvice]

Finishing dental school with about $350k in loans (after interest). I was fortunate enough to also get into endo as a D4, but that will add another $220k in loans. It's a few months before the program starts and I am stating to get cold feet due to the cost. What would you do if you were in my shoes?

I'm sure the return of being an endodontist is worth it. I've met with a number of them who need help paying off their student loan debt. With your high expected income, you'll be able to pay those loans off.

There's two common ways endodontist will pay down their loans.
1.) Private refinance
2.) Taxable Forgiveness

Private refinance would allow you to lower the interest rate on those federal loans you borrowed and minimize the interest charge over the life of the loan. We recommend most to do this.

If your student loan debt is 3x or 4x your income (or more) then look into taxable loan forgiveness. This occurs after 20-25 years of payments in an income driven repayment plan.

 

[yappy]

View attachment 351441
This is the 2021 production of the highest-producing specialists of a big corporate that most of us here have heard of. The specialists get paid 40-45% of their production, so you can do the math yourself. I’ve seen the work of one of those 2 highest-producing endodontists. All I can say is that I never want to send my family to that specialist.

Why do they make their production public?

 

[GoDental101]

Why do they make their production public?

My guess would be as a means of recruiting other people.

 

[dizzle23x]

I’m an endodontist. Worked for a bit before going back for endo. Also had to pay for residency training and finished with about 500k in total loans. Worth it and would do it all over again.