D.O. vs foreign MD

[mshheaddoc]

ER-ER-Oh had some great points.

Personally I know many people with subpar academics who got into med school. That doesn't make them any less of a doctor. They got in based on merit and other activities (and yes some AA). If I had a choice I'd go DO over IMG only because I don't want to have rotations all over creation. Additionally, I am intrigued by the osteopathic philosophy.

Oh and I'm taking classes over as well. It seems as a 19 yo I didn't know what I wanted out of life. Now 7 years later I have direction. Not all of us are geniuses at the age of 19. If you are bitter because I can retake classes and excel in them now, I don't know what to tell you. That doesn't make my grades inflated because guess what? YOU STILL HAVE TO DISCLOSE THEM. DO's are schools that give people a chance to make up for mistakes. MD schools are starting to realize this and now taking on more non-traditional students. HENCE, why couple with competition the avg age of med school is now 24-25.

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[novacek88]

The other problem with going the FMG route is the lack of flexibility. I really hope you like New York because that's where you will likely do your clinical rotations. Sure, they have other sites like in Chicago and some place in Bakersfield, CA but you aren't guaranteed those sites as your school sets up your rotations and only a small percentage of their students get to rotate there. And Bakersfield is not LA which is what many think. Bakerfield is in BFE far outside Los Angelas so you aren't doing your rotations in So Cal near beach if that's what you are thinking.

That was my biggest problem with the Carribbean. I'm from the west coast and I wanted to stay near home for school and rotations. I can't stand the east coast and I would never want to be forced to doing my clinical rotations in New York. I never had a problem with that as a DO. There are several DO schools in the west. And if you want to rotate in New York and the east coast, you can do that too.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Your analysis above is seriously flawed. Yes, you are right, if one theoretically re-took every class he did bad in, he could raise his GPA that high. However, the number of classes that would entail would be many such 30 to 40 hours worth of classes.

Not quite. I can retake ONE 3-hour class and my science GPA jumps from a 3.33 to almost a 3.50. If I add a couple mid-level sciences to it, it magically becomes a 3.70.

I don't really see the point of this argument. Despite all the bickering, DO schools and the decent Caribbean MD schools are really a lot alike. Both have very similar admission numbers. Depending on the DO school, you may be going everywhere for clinicals, just like the Caribbean. Residency appointments are very similar. Both serve as a backdoor for people who couldn't make it to a US MD school.

Yes, some people choose DO, but that isn't really the norm. Practicing DOs have admitted this, why can't students? Even though I really like DO's and the philosophy, if I had the choice between DO or US MD, I would probably choose US MD, if only because of lower tuition and name recognition. When someone sees, "John Doe, MD" they instantly know what he is. When someone sees, "John Doe, DO" the typical response is, "What the hell is a DO"?

I'm applying to both DO and Caribbean MD. If accepted to both, I'll choose DO for three reasons: they're stateside, I won't have to move as far away, and I can get HPSP.

 

[NRAI2001]

ER-ER-Oh had some great points.

Personally I know many people with subpar academics who got into med school. That doesn't make them any less of a doctor. They got in based on merit and other activities (and yes some AA). If I had a choice I'd go DO over IMG only because I don't want to have rotations all over creation. Additionally, I am intrigued by the osteopathic philosophy.

Oh and I'm taking classes over as well. It seems as a 19 yo I didn't know what I wanted out of life. Now 7 years later I have direction. Not all of us are geniuses at the age of 19. If you are bitter because I can retake classes and excel in them now, I don't know what to tell you. That doesn't make my grades inflated because guess what? YOU STILL HAVE TO DISCLOSE THEM. DO's are schools that give people a chance to make up for mistakes. MD schools are starting to realize this and now taking on more non-traditional students. HENCE, why couple with competition the avg age of med school is now 24-25.

Yes, you do have to disclose them, but when DO schools report their avg gpa's on their websites...etc, they report the replaced gpa, not the original one. So with a school with a 3.3 avg, you don't know what percentage of that gpa has been replaced.

 

[mshheaddoc]

Yes, you do have to disclose them, but when DO schools report their avg gpa's on their websites...etc, they report the replaced gpa, not the original one. So with a school with a 3.3 avg, you don't know what percentage of that gpa has been replaced.

are you kidding? Please say you are. I don't know many people at all that have retaken all their coursework in order to increase their gpa. People deserve a second chance. Usually people retake prereqs then they do upper level coursework they haven't. Maybe there are a few that retake ALL their classes but COME ON. They aren't representative of the whole. I will never have a cum of 3.0 unless I take over 75 additional credits. Does that mean I shouldn't be a doctor? Numbers are just that, numbers ... Not to be mean or anything. I just don't see the big deal in retaking a few classes nor why that is gpa inflation for like .4 of a point. I see your point, just don't think its a valid point. I think that if you retake a class (say 8 years later) the latter grade SHOULD count.

 

[NRAI2001]

are you kidding? Please say you are. I don't know many people at all that have retaken all their coursework in order to increase their gpa. People deserve a second chance. Usually people retake prereqs then they do upper level coursework they haven't. Maybe there are a few that retake ALL their classes but COME ON. They aren't representative of the whole. I will never have a cum of 3.0 unless I take over 75 additional credits. Does that mean I shouldn't be a doctor? Numbers are just that, numbers ... Not to be mean or anything. I just don't see the big deal in retaking a few classes nor why that is gpa inflation for like .4 of a point. I see your point, just don't think its a valid point. I think that if you retake a class (say 8 years later) the latter grade SHOULD count.

Yea of course, no one retakes all of their classes. But if someone retook a few of their pre reqs that they did bad in, they can significantly raise their gpa.

Anyway, i was just making the point that people shouldn't look down upon the carribean schools, especially in regards to avg gpa's and mcats.

 

[frank51]

For those who keep emphasizing that D.O schools and Carribean schools have similar admissions standards, you should really do your research before making such comments. I know for a fact that the average GPA and MCAT for TCOM is the same as most of the other Texas M.D schools (BTW, TCOM uses the same application as other Texas M.D schools, so the GPA calculation is the same other M.D schools), I think other state DO schools are just as competitive. Correct me if I’m wrong but last time I checked there were not any Carribean schools with ~3.6 GPA/27-28 MCAT. Are there D.O schools with lower stats? Yes, but the same argument can be made for several US M.D schools (Howard, Meharry, etc.).

 

[JohnnyOU]

For those who keep emphasizing that D.O schools and Carribean schools have similar admissions standards, you should really do your research before making such comments. I know for a fact that the average GPA and MCAT for TCOM is the same as most of the other Texas M.D schools (BTW, TCOM uses the same application as other Texas M.D schools, so the GPA calculation is the same other M.D schools), I think other state DO schools are just as competitive. Correct me if I’m wrong but last time I checked there were not any Carribean schools with ~3.6 GPA/27-28 MCAT. Are there D.O schools with lower stats? Yes, but the same argument can be made for several US M.D schools (Howard, Meharry, etc.).

True. DO medical schools are much more difficult to get into than Caribbean.
Our DO school here in Oklahoma has an average GPA of 3.62 and MCAT of >26....compared with the most selective Caribbean (SGU) which is 3.3 and 24.

 

[espbeliever]

True. DO medical schools are much more difficult to get into than Caribbean.
Our DO school here in Oklahoma has an average GPA of 3.62 and MCAT of >26....compared with the most selective Caribbean (SGU) which is 3.3 and 24.

nice DO school you have down there... 100% pass on the comlex test... oh and the uhm that uh.. one test... usmle...

i thought only MDs could pass the usmle??

who cares md or do, get your work done, go on to be doc. that is what we are all here for. why do you care about a couple of letters for semantics??

 

[DD214_DOC]

I know for a fact that the average GPA and MCAT for TCOM is the same as most of the other Texas M.D schools (BTW, TCOM uses the same application as other Texas M.D schools, so the GPA calculation is the same other M.D schools), I think other state DO schools are just as competitive. Correct me if I’m wrong but last time I checked there were not any Carribean schools with ~3.6 GPA/27-28 MCAT. Are there D.O schools with lower stats? Yes, but the same argument can be made for several US M.D schools (Howard, Meharry, etc.).

There are always exceptions.

 

[JohnnyOU]

nice DO school you have down there... 100% pass on the comlex test... oh and the uhm that uh.. one test... usmle...

100% b/c we all use the same cheat-sheet

 

[daelroy]

Yea of course, no one retakes all of their classes. But if someone retook a few of their pre reqs that they did bad in, they can significantly raise their gpa.

Anyway, i was just making the point that people shouldn't look down upon the carribean schools, especially in regards to avg gpa's and mcats.

But a person isn't going to raise his GPA from a 3.0 to a 3.4 by repeating a few classes, which is what you initially suggested. That is just a weak excuse to justify the low average GPA of most Carribbean schools. Realistically, a person could probably raise his GPA 0.1 or maybe 0.2 and that too assuming he retook several classes.

 

[housecleaning]

But a person isn't going to raise his GPA from a 3.0 to a 3.4 by repeating a few classes, which is what you initially suggested. That is just a weak excuse to justify the low average GPA of most Carribbean schools. Realistically, a person could probably raise his GPA 0.1 or maybe 0.2 and that too assuming he retook several classes.

i hate to interrupt, but here's one that retook 7 classes in (get ready for this) *community college* to gain admission to ohklehomee state osteopathic. i'll bet that helps the ol' gpa more than 0.1 or 0.2...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=414974&postcount=5

{oohhh... carmel center. my favorite}

 

[Taus]

There's always an exception to a rule and the above is definately an example of one....

Regardless, given the fact that schools can see your original grades and your transcripts distinctly show where you studied, this whole current argument can be made into a mute point. I'd find it hard to believe that an admissions committee wouldn't consider when/how/where classes were taken when deciding on an applicant. The individual who went the route desribed in the above post would absolutely need an otherwise stellar application to recieve an acceptance.

 

[Kubed]

Have to choose between A) a US DO school and B) a foreign MD school? I would go with secret option “C,” marry rich and buy a Caribbean island.

 

[mshheaddoc]

i hate to interrupt, but here's one that retook 7 classes in (get ready for this) *community college* to gain admission to ohklehomee state osteopathic. i'll bet that helps the ol' gpa more than 0.1 or 0.2...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=414974&postcount=5

{oohhh... carmel center. my favorite}

EXPOSED!

Damn ohklehomoneeeens

 

[daelroy]

i hate to interrupt, but here's one that retook 7 classes in (get ready for this) *community college* to gain admission to ohklehomee state osteopathic. i'll bet that helps the ol' gpa more than 0.1 or 0.2...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=414974&postcount=5

{oohhh... carmel center. my favorite}

Except that he never mentions specific information related to his GPA. Whoops, looks like you were going back for seconds on the junior mints and nachos during that part of the movie. Here, but let me rewind this for you:

"Oh I don't think there's a limit. I had a pretty bad academic record when I first started college, and I ended up retaking 7 classes, although all of them were at the community college level, and they were all replaced before I had dropped out of school.Of course having to replace a lot of classes will hurt you, but there's no question DO schools are more forgiving than many MD schools. The main thing is to make sure you dont get any bad grades now. If you have bad grades, make sure they are in the past

Well lookee there Pa, no mention of that dad gum GPA anywhere in sight. And like others have already mentioned, many people will retake classes just to show adcoms they can handle a full courseload as opposed to attempting to significantly increase their GPA.

 

[NRAI2001]

But a person isn't going to raise his GPA from a 3.0 to a 3.4 by repeating a few classes, which is what you initially suggested. That is just a weak excuse to justify the low average GPA of most Carribbean schools. Realistically, a person could probably raise his GPA 0.1 or maybe 0.2 and that too assuming he retook several classes.

You could raise it quite a bit

http://mcb.berkeley.edu/undergrad/gpa.html

Most people don't have a full 120 units of grades by the time they apply or even graduate. They may have something like 70-80 units of grades by application time.

Imagine taking 4 or 5 of the classes you did the worst in, and being able to retake them.

 

[mr.weirdscience]

You could raise it quite a bit

http://mcb.berkeley.edu/undergrad/gpa.html

Most people don't have a full 120 units of grades by the time they apply or even graduate. They may have something like 70-80 units of grades by application time.

Imagine taking 4 or 5 of the classes you did the worst in, and being able to retake them.

Cmon dude, now you are just arguing for arguments sake. Maybe if the person received F's in 6 or 8 lab science classses and repeated all of them and received A's, then yes, maybe the person could improve his GPA quite a bit. But that scenario is pretty unlikely. This is also assuming the person received A's and B's in the remainder of his other classes which isn't likely either. I mean if you were that lazy to fail 8 science classes then you would have probably received C's and D's in other classes. And if the person did in fact received 6 or 8 F's, his GPA would be well below 3.0 especially if he only took 80 credits. The more credits you have, the more of a buffer zone you would receive. With only 80 credits, failing 5 lab science classes would account for approximately 1/4 of the person's GPA. There is no way a person could fail 7 or 8 lab science courses and only take 70-80 credit hours and still have a 3.0 GPA. Do the math and you will see that example doesn't hold weight.

You need a minimum of 90 credit hours to apply to medical school and repeated courses do not count as additional credits according to AACOMAS and AMCAS. This is why you list "R" by them. The majority of students apply to medical school during the summer prior to their senior year at which time they usually have 90 credits or more. And to graduate from most programs, you require a minimum of 120 credits in that particular major so to assume that one only has 70 - 80 credits by the time they apply or graduate is silly.

I'm sure a few students did this but to imply this is the norm is reaching for straws. To imply that your typical FMG with his 2.8 GPA could have gotten into a DO school if he simply retook 5 classes is bogus.

 

[mr.weirdscience]

Not quite. I can retake ONE 3-hour class and my science GPA jumps from a 3.33 to almost a 3.50. If I add a couple mid-level sciences to it, it magically becomes a 3.70.

I don't really see the point of this argument. Despite all the bickering, DO schools and the decent Caribbean MD schools are really a lot alike. Both have very similar admission numbers. Depending on the DO school, you may be going everywhere for clinicals, just like the Caribbean. Residency appointments are very similar. Both serve as a backdoor for people who couldn't make it to a US MD school.

That is your science GPA not your overall. We were addressing the overall GPA. There are far less credits in your science GPA so obviously repeating a class or two would dramatically increase your science GPA quite a bit. And if your science GPA can rise to a 3.50 if you can retake one class, then you would be a complete fool not to retake it.

I would seriously encourage you to do more research on the admission stats of both DO and Carribbean schools. The residency placement and entrance statistics of most DO schools are overwhelmingly better than most Carribbean schools. SGU is the only Caribbean school to publish their admission stats and their average GPA is a 3.3 with an average MCAT of 24. SGU is recognized as the most difficult to get into of all the foreign schools so I don't see how you can say their admission numbers are comparable.

 

[novacek88]

This thread makes me laugh. Some people will argue the dumbest points just to avoid conceding the other person was right. I know IMG's will argue to ridiculous lengths to suggest they "chose" to attend their school over a DO school. We all know that the majority of IMG's would kill to attend a DO school over a foreign school if given the chance. The entrance stats and admission stats confirm that. It's a lot harder getting into even a private and non-desirable DO school when compared to Ross. SGU is comparable to some of the weakest DO schools but can't hold a candle to the most competitive DO schools. Now you have some people arguing that DO students' GPA's are inflated because they account for repeated grades. Puuuuhleaase, sorry buddy but you were not going to change your GPA from 2.97 to a 3.60 by repeating some classes. That is just wishful thinking. Do you think some person is going to endure that Turkish prison of an excuse for a medical school in Ross if they could have just repeated a few classes and gotten into a school in the United States? I don't think so! Now, I'm sure some bozo will give an example of his brother who just failed physics and could have retaken it and raised his GPA to a 3.5 but elected to go with his 3.0 so he could have the priviledge of attending Ross. Whatever!

Look, I'm a DO and I'm not going to bullshyte any of you. I think most DO's would have attended an allo school if given the choice. Likewise, who are we kidding, the majority of students are not going to make their lives so much more difficult by choosing a foreign school over a DO school just for the initials. We had two students in my class that were going to SGU until they were admitted to AZCOM off the waitlist but we didn't have anyone drop out of AZCOM and attend SGU. At AZCOM, we get about 2 or 3 people drop out of SGU and Ross to attend our school each year.

I don't think there is anything wrong with foreign schools. Some of my best friends are IMG's. I love you guys. Hey, if I had a 2.9, I wouldn't bother spending 2 years at community college. I would just send my application to St. George or AUC. But some of you need to grow up and stop playing the "I gotta be defensive and protect my school" game. Yeah, I know you go to SGU or Ross but that doesn't mean you have to come up with lame arguments to defend your school. I could be like the rest of you and argue that all DO's chose that route because they wanted to learn OMM. That argument wouldn't fly would it? Now you know how I feel about some of the things you guys say.

 

[DrFeelgoodDO]

This thread makes me laugh. Some people will argue the dumbest points just to avoid conceding the other person was right. I know IMG's will argue to ridiculous lengths to suggest they "chose" to attend their school over a DO school. We all know that the majority of IMG's would kill to attend a DO school over a foreign school if given the chance. The entrance stats and admission stats confirm that. It's a lot harder getting into even a private and non-desirable DO school when compared to Ross. SGU is comparable to some of the weakest DO schools but can't hold a candle to the most competitive DO schools. Now you have some people arguing that DO students' GPA's are inflated because they account for repeated grades. Puuuuhleaase, sorry buddy but you were not going to change your GPA from 2.97 to a 3.60 by repeating some classes. That is just wishful thinking. Do you think some person is going to endure that Turkish prison of an excuse for a medical school in Ross if they could have just repeated a few classes and gotten into a school in the United States? I don't think so! Now, I'm sure some bozo will give an example of his brother who just failed physics and could have retaken it and raised his GPA to a 3.5 but elected to go with his 3.0 so he could have the priviledge of attending Ross. Whatever!

Look, I'm a DO and I'm not going to bullshyte any of you. I think most DO's would have attended an allo school if given the choice. Likewise, who are we kidding, the majority of students are not going to make their lives so much more difficult by choosing a foreign school over a DO school just for the initials. We had two students in my class that were going to SGU until they were admitted to AZCOM off the waitlist but we didn't have anyone drop out of AZCOM and attend SGU. At AZCOM, we get about 2 or 3 people drop out of SGU and Ross to attend our school each year.

I don't think there is anything wrong with foreign schools. Some of my best friends are IMG's. I love you guys. Hey, if I had a 2.9, I wouldn't bother spending 2 years at community college. I would just send my application to St. George or AUC. But some of you need to grow up and stop playing the "I gotta be defensive and protect my school" game. Yeah, I know you go to SGU or Ross but that doesn't mean you have to come up with lame arguments to defend your school. I could be like the rest of you and argue that all DO's chose that route because they wanted to learn OMM. That argument wouldn't fly would it? Now you know how I feel about some of the things you guys say.

right on, dude

 

[docbill]

This thread makes me laugh. Some people will argue the dumbest points just to avoid conceding the other person was right. I know IMG's will argue to ridiculous lengths to suggest they "chose" to attend their school over a DO school. We all know that the majority of IMG's would kill to attend a DO school over a foreign school if given the chance. The entrance stats and admission stats confirm that. It's a lot harder getting into even a private and non-desirable DO school when compared to Ross. SGU is comparable to some of the weakest DO schools but can't hold a candle to the most competitive DO schools. Now you have some people arguing that DO students' GPA's are inflated because they account for repeated grades. Puuuuhleaase, sorry buddy but you were not going to change your GPA from 2.97 to a 3.60 by repeating some classes. That is just wishful thinking. Do you think some person is going to endure that Turkish prison of an excuse for a medical school in Ross if they could have just repeated a few classes and gotten into a school in the United States? I don't think so! Now, I'm sure some bozo will give an example of his brother who just failed physics and could have retaken it and raised his GPA to a 3.5 but elected to go with his 3.0 so he could have the priviledge of attending Ross. Whatever!

Look, I'm a DO and I'm not going to bullshyte any of you. I think most DO's would have attended an allo school if given the choice. Likewise, who are we kidding, the majority of students are not going to make their lives so much more difficult by choosing a foreign school over a DO school just for the initials. We had two students in my class that were going to SGU until they were admitted to AZCOM off the waitlist but we didn't have anyone drop out of AZCOM and attend SGU. At AZCOM, we get about 2 or 3 people drop out of SGU and Ross to attend our school each year.

I don't think there is anything wrong with foreign schools. Some of my best friends are IMG's. I love you guys. Hey, if I had a 2.9, I wouldn't bother spending 2 years at community college. I would just send my application to St. George or AUC. But some of you need to grow up and stop playing the "I gotta be defensive and protect my school" game. Yeah, I know you go to SGU or Ross but that doesn't mean you have to come up with lame arguments to defend your school. I could be like the rest of you and argue that all DO's chose that route because they wanted to learn OMM. That argument wouldn't fly would it? Now you know how I feel about some of the things you guys say.

I second that.

Adding that I am sick of all this BS and a new MD or DO thread every couple of weeks. Now they are in the re-applicant thread.. what is next. The general surgery thread.

 

[JohnnyOU]

I second that.

Adding that I am sick of all this BS and a new MD or DO thread every couple of weeks. Now they are in the re-applicant thread.. what is next. The general surgery thread.

General surgeons aren't real doctors....
only pediatric cardiothoracic left-handed surgeons are REAL doctors.

(ps...this IS a joke for anyone unable to tell)

 

[Kazema]

I retook 3 classes (all F -> A, plus one of the classes I failed twice) and went from a 2.92 to a 3.13.

So on average, each retake raised my GPA by 0.07. And any additional retakes would've raised it by less than that. And one of the retakes replaced 2 F's. Hardly earth-shattering, but every bit does help.

On the other hand, the omission of math courses from my science GPA for AACOMAS really, really helped me. 3.50 compared to 2.95.

 

[Shinken]

I don't care about DO, MD, IMG, blah blah blah

All I care about is to know, once and for all, if St. Chris is a British school or not ?!!?!? I think it is. After all, it's in Great Britain. Sorta like Harley-Davidson bikes. They have 80% foreign parts, but since they're assembled in the US then H-Ds are "American" motorcycles. Same thing.

St. Chris is a British school. If you look in their website, you do have the option of attending the "MD" track for eventually coming to the US, or the "MBBS" track for staying in the UK and practice their brand of medicine.

 

[daelroy]

I found this in another thread. An IMG (Carribbean grad) was curious about his possibilities of matching neurology one day. Check out this response from PainDr

"As a pgy-4 neuro resident (graduating in 1 week...yea!!!!) with lots of friends in the field, I DO know quite a bit about neurology residencies. I've participated in our rank list meeting every year and can tell you that carrib grads ARE treated differently than other IMGs/FMGs. BTW, although my program is quite good, it is certainly not Ivy League and even we would never choose a carrib grad over an FMG. I've heard the discussions and fair or not, there is always a concern about why an applicant couldn't get into a US school. For every carrib grad with great numbers, there are 3-4 FMGs with equal or better numbers. They always go with the FMG. Granted, I don't know how all programs feel, but the several I do know of feel very strongly about this. If you are a carrib grad the one way to influence this attitude (other than stellar numbers) is to do an audition rotation and blow everyone away. Then they'll remember you as "that awesome student we had" and not "oh...he's a carrib grad, let's move on".


http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2829565#post2829565

 

[brightblueeyes]

I don't care about DO, MD, IMG, blah blah blah

All I care about is to know, once and for all, if St. Chris is a British school or not ?!!?!? I think it is. After all, it's in Great Britain. Sorta like Harley-Davidson bikes. They have 80% foreign parts, but since they're assembled in the US then H-Ds are "American" motorcycles. Same thing.

St. Chris is a British school. If you look in their website, you do have the option of attending the "MD" track for eventually coming to the US, or the "MBBS" track for staying in the UK and practice their brand of medicine.

If by British you mean the school is located in Britain, then it's British. But it's probably more useful to know how it's viewed by a group like the General Medical Council. If St. Chris were a British school, it would need to be approved by the GMC and meet all the requirements of their Education Committee...or be shut down. Since it is a Senegalese school which just happens to have a campus in Luton, the GMC leaves St. Christopher's alone and doesn't give them a hard time. I think the wording the GMC uses is that schools like St. Chris fall under the remit of an overseas university. The fact that British students who graduate from St. Chris need to sit the PLAB shows that the GMC doesn't treat St. Chris as a European med school.

For what it's worth, I've never seen a post where a St. Chris student tried to represent his or her school as a British med school. They seem fairly up-front about the whole thing.

 

[realmdo]

Have to choose between A) a US DO school and B) a foreign MD school? I would go with secret option “C,” marry rich and buy a Caribbean island.

Man!!! I went through options A and B, how come i don't know this option c. Now i know how low my IQ is. can somebody please close this ****.

 

[DD214_DOC]

That is your science GPA not your overall. We were addressing the overall GPA. There are far less credits in your science GPA so obviously repeating a class or two would dramatically increase your science GPA quite a bit. And if your science GPA can rise to a 3.50 if you can retake one class, then you would be a complete fool not to retake it.

I would seriously encourage you to do more research on the admission stats of both DO and Carribbean schools. The residency placement and entrance statistics of most DO schools are overwhelmingly better than most Carribbean schools. SGU is the only Caribbean school to publish their admission stats and their average GPA is a 3.3 with an average MCAT of 24. SGU is recognized as the most difficult to get into of all the foreign schools so I don't see how you can say their admission numbers are comparable.

The point still stands that retaking a couple classes can have a dramatic effect upon one's GPA, cumulative or not. A 3.5 SGPA at a DO school may not be comparable to the 3.1 at a Caribbean MD school, as the Carib schools average all science grades and do not replace any.

SGU, Ross, and AUC all have GPAs around 3.1ish and MCATS in the low to mid 20's. Comparable DO schools include PCOM-GA, WVSOM, LECOM-B, LECOM-PA, and some of the other less-desirable DO schools. It's also not unusual for someone to be rejected from US MD schools, but accepted to both DO and Caribbean MD schools.

Keep in mind, I didn't say there was no difference -- I said they are comparable, meaning only a slight difference in both types of school.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I don't care about DO, MD, IMG, blah blah blah

All I care about is to know, once and for all, if St. Chris is a British school or not ?!!?!? I think it is. After all, it's in Great Britain. Sorta like Harley-Davidson bikes. They have 80% foreign parts, but since they're assembled in the US then H-Ds are "American" motorcycles. Same thing.

St. Chris is a British school. If you look in their website, you do have the option of attending the "MD" track for eventually coming to the US, or the "MBBS" track for staying in the UK and practice their brand of medicine.

nope, it's not a british school. it's officially a sengelese school with a campus in england. st. chris grads are considered foreign graduates in the u.k., and most of their students are from the u.s..

 

[daelroy]

The point still stands that retaking a couple classes can have a dramatic effect upon one's GPA, cumulative or not.

The cumulative GPA is what is reported on a school's average GPA listing not it's science GPA. You can be assured the overall GPA is taken very seriously. A 3.5 science GPA is nice but if your overall is still a 3.0 or a 2.9, it's going to raise eyebrows regardless of what you believe.

SGU, Ross, and AUC all have GPAs around 3.1ish and MCATS in the low to mid 20's.

Do you have proof of this? Ross and AUC refuse to publish their entrance stats. Gee, I wonder why. The closest publishing of Ross' GPA stats was in New York Times article several years ago in which the average GPA was reported to be a 2.9. Their acceptance rate was reported at 65%. I don't know of any DO school that accepts 65% of its applicants let alone half that number.

Based on your reasoning, one could argue DO school admissions are similar to U.S. M.D. schools because their average GPA and MCAT scores are off by only a few digits. Where you draw the line with what is "similar."

And there are several U.S. M.D. schools that have entrance stats similar to many DO schools like Howard, Meharry, Morehouse the University of Mississippi, etc.

 

[frank51]

Do you have proof of this? Ross and AUC refuse to publish their entrance stats. Gee, I wonder why. The closest publishing of Ross' GPA stats was in New York Times article several years ago in which the average GPA was reported to be a 2.9. Their acceptance rate was reported at 65%. I don't know of any DO school that accepts 65% of its applicants let alone half that number.

Based on your reasoning, one could argue DO school admissions are similar to U.S. M.D. schools because their average GPA and MCAT scores are off by only a few digits. Where you draw the line with what is "similar."

And there are several U.S. M.D. schools that have entrance stats similar to many DO schools like Howard, Meharry, Morehouse the University of Mississippi, etc.

Very true, I actually think that D.O schools accept a lower percentage of applicants compared to M.D schools in the U.S. This was mentioned in an article published in the New York Times.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Do you have proof of this? Ross and AUC refuse to publish their entrance stats. Gee, I wonder why.

cum / sci / mcat / acceptance rate

Ross
3.20 / 3.20 / no idea / I'll assume your 65%

SGU
3.20 / 3.10 / 24 / no idea

AUC
3.10 / 2.90 / 22 / no idea

WVSOM
3.4 / 3.3 / 22 / 20.4%

PCSOM
3.4 / 3.3 / 23 / 25.6%

PCOM
3.32 / 3.22 / 24 / 13%

LECOM-PA
3.30 / 3.15 / 24 / NA

Western/COMP
3.35 / 3.26 / 24 / 20%

VCOM
3.20 / 3.20 / 24 / 22%

By the way, LECOM-PA and LECOM-Bradenton also refused to publish their admission stats.

By the way, Ross has an entering class of ~ 400 or so I believe. I'm sure they get more than 600 apps per year, so there's no way they accept 65% of applicants.

As I said, there isn't a huge difference between DO and Caribbean MD, especially with regard to the MCAT.

My source is my databse of school stats, which I have compiled from various sources such as US News, school websites, students, and other databases. I have always cross-referenced stats to ensure decent accuracy.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Very true, I actually think that D.O schools accept a lower percentage of applicants compared to M.D schools in the U.S. This was mentioned in an article published in the New York Times.

Then the article was wrong. I have never seen an allo school that accepts more than 15%. Many DO schools accept 15%-25%

 

[Kazema]

By the way, Ross has an entering class of ~ 400 or so I believe. I'm sure they get more than 600 apps per year, so there's no way they accept 65% of applicants.

I imagine that a lot of people who get into Ross end up not going though. So they probably accept a lot more than 400 - considering that some US MD schools accept twice as many students as available seats, I would guess Ross accepts 1000-1500 students each year, if not more.

 

[NRAI2001]

cum / sci / mcat / acceptance rate

Ross
3.20 / 3.20 / no idea / I'll assume your 65%

SGU
3.20 / 3.10 / 24 / no idea

AUC
3.10 / 2.90 / 22 / no idea

WVSOM
3.4 / 3.3 / 22 / 20.4%

PCSOM
3.4 / 3.3 / 23 / 25.6%

PCOM
3.32 / 3.22 / 24 / 13%

LECOM-PA
3.30 / 3.15 / 24 / NA

Western/COMP
3.35 / 3.26 / 24 / 20%

VCOM
3.20 / 3.20 / 24 / 22%

By the way, LECOM-PA and LECOM-Bradenton also refused to publish their admission stats.

By the way, Ross has an entering class of ~ 400 or so I believe. I'm sure they get more than 600 apps per year, so there's no way they accept 65% of applicants.

As I said, there isn't a huge difference between DO and Caribbean MD, especially with regard to the MCAT.

My source is my databse of school stats, which I have compiled from various sources such as US News, school websites, students, and other databases. I have always cross-referenced stats to ensure decent accuracy.

Finally some real data

All the schools look to have very similar stats to me.

 

[BlondeCookie]

DOs: Stop insulting other MDs from foreign countries.
MDs from foreign countries: Stop insulting DOs.

I think some of the attitudes on this forum are quite arrogant. As doctors, it is expected that common courtesy and decency is shown, not only to patients, but also to other members of the health profession (including other doctors).

Those interested in studying medicine from an osteopathic view, DO school is the right choice. Those interested in studying medicine from a more traditional view, MD school is the right choice. A big thumbs down to the conceited few who insist that their way is the right way.

 

[dr.z]

Then the article was wrong. I have never seen an allo school that accepts more than 15%. Many DO schools accept 15%-25%

I personally don't care much about acceptance rates. I don't think it determines whether the school is good or not. I think every school is capable of producing competent physicians whether it be US MD, DO or foreign MD schools.

There are allopathic schools that accept more than 15% of their applicants
according to U.S. News Rankings:

University of North Dakota 40%
University of New Mexico 38.9%
University of Arkansas 21.5%
West Virginia University 15.5%
Northeastern Ohio University 16.8%
Wayne State Univesity 17.8%
University of Mississppi 49.6%
Medical University of South Carolina 15.2%
Univesity of Kansas 17.7%
Uniformed Service University 15.9%
University of Utah 15.4%
University of Oklahoma 22.8%
University of Kentucky 17.6%
University of Nebraska 18.6%
University of Nevada--Reno 26.1%
University of Cincinnati 15.2%
Medical College of Georgia 15.4%
University of Arizona 34.1%
Indiana University--Indianapolis 17.4%
University of Missouri--Columbia 20.0%
University of Massachusetts--Worcester 23.7%

 

[daelroy]

My source is my databse of school stats, which I have compiled from various sources such as US News, school websites, students, and other databases. I have always cross-referenced stats to ensure decent accuracy.

Well then you need to do a much better job ensuring accuracy because much of your stats is inaccurate. A quick check at the COMP, VCOM and PCOM websites confirm discrepancies from the ones your provided above and I provided URL's as evidence. I'm curious as to how you acquired the entrance stats for SGU, Ross, and AUC since their own websites don't list them and U.S. News and World Report have never reported them either? How would you know if the discrepancy in MCAT scores isn't great considering you didn't even provide an MCAT score for SGU, Ross or AUC? The acceptance rate is probably a lot lower than 65 percent because that article was 3 or 4 years old but the fact it was 65 percent just a few years ago is alarming. And Ross accepts between 250-300 students per quarter or 3 times per year so it's not 400 students for the year.

BTW-Lecom-PA does list it's stats. It's Bradenton campus didn't provide stats because it's new

http://www.lecom.edu/lecom/admissions/requirements.asp

COMP's stats

The average GPA is Overall 3.40; Science 3.30; Non-Science 3.50. The average MCAT score is 9.0.(27)

http://www.westernu.edu/prospective/do_prerequisites.xml

PCOM's stats according to their website

In 2003, the entering D.O. Class of 2007 consisted of 254 first-time students from 136 different colleges and 27 states. The average class GPA was 3.38, the science GPA was 3.45 and the mean MCAT score was 24."

http://www.pcom.edu/Admissions/adm_FAQs/Adm_FAQs.html

VCOM stats according to their website
"To be considered a competitive applicant of VCOM, candidates should have achieved at least a 3.0 science and cumulative grade point average, on a 4.0 scale. Although the minimum GPA is 2.75, the admissions process is competitive, and a much higher grade point average results in improved chances for acceptance. VCOM places emphasis on the last 120 credit hours including the science and required courses. The average GPA for the Class of 2009 is 3.4."

http://www.vcom.vt.edu/academicreq.html

SGU, Ross and AUC didn't publish their entrance stats on their websites. Hmm

http://www.rossmed.edu/Medical_School/Admissions/admissions.html

http://www.aucmed.edu/admissions/entrancereq.htm

http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/Medicine/EntranceRequirementsMED.htm#admiss

 

[brightblueeyes]

DOs: Stop insulting other MDs from foreign countries.
MDs from foreign countries: Stop insulting DOs.

????
By "MDs from foreign countries" I think you mean Caribbean grads.

MDs who are actually from other countries tend to have nothing against DOs. As far as they're concerned, DO schools are simply a type of med school found in the US.

 

[daelroy]

This is a quote from a Ross GRADUATE who is now a third year resident in family practice.

2. Ross University achieves a high pass rate on the USMLE by weeding (sp) out their 250 to 300 students per class to about 125 by the time it's time to take the USMLE. Remember, Ross is a 2nd chance, so if you did not get into a US school or were older and did not want to waste a year or even 2 years to try to get into a state side program, then this is the way you may have gone.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=97461

 

[crys20]

It would make a ton of sense if DO schools admitted a lower % of applicants because come on, there have GOT to be a significant number of really bottom of the barrel applicants who decide to try their luck there. Thus more rejections.

Many of the carib schools dont even REQUIRE the MCAT. Probably why finding out an avg is so difficult.

But whatever, you do what you have to do to get where you want to be and I commend people for doing it. Going offshore beats wasting years and years of your life trying to improve a fu**ed GPA, you know.

 

[daelroy]

Many of the carib schools dont even REQUIRE the MCAT. Probably why finding out an avg is so difficult.

SGU, Ross and AUC all require the MCAT but don't publish their entrance stats. Can you blame them?

 

[crys20]

Lord no. Oh I think I was thinking of a Grenada school a kid I know went to briefly that didnt require the MCAT.

At any rate, these threads are super funny because they always get so damn lively. And I swear to god I see a new 5 pager weekly That 'whats next, the surgery forum' also cracked me up

 

[crys20]

This thread makes me laugh. Some people will argue the dumbest points just to avoid conceding the other person was right. I know IMG's will argue to ridiculous lengths to suggest they "chose" to attend their school over a DO school. We all know that the majority of IMG's would kill to attend a DO school over a foreign school if given the chance. The entrance stats and admission stats confirm that. It's a lot harder getting into even a private and non-desirable DO school when compared to Ross. SGU is comparable to some of the weakest DO schools but can't hold a candle to the most competitive DO schools. Now you have some people arguing that DO students' GPA's are inflated because they account for repeated grades. Puuuuhleaase, sorry buddy but you were not going to change your GPA from 2.97 to a 3.60 by repeating some classes. That is just wishful thinking. Do you think some person is going to endure that Turkish prison of an excuse for a medical school in Ross if they could have just repeated a few classes and gotten into a school in the United States? I don't think so! Now, I'm sure some bozo will give an example of his brother who just failed physics and could have retaken it and raised his GPA to a 3.5 but elected to go with his 3.0 so he could have the priviledge of attending Ross. Whatever!

Look, I'm a DO and I'm not going to bullshyte any of you. I think most DO's would have attended an allo school if given the choice. Likewise, who are we kidding, the majority of students are not going to make their lives so much more difficult by choosing a foreign school over a DO school just for the initials. We had two students in my class that were going to SGU until they were admitted to AZCOM off the waitlist but we didn't have anyone drop out of AZCOM and attend SGU. At AZCOM, we get about 2 or 3 people drop out of SGU and Ross to attend our school each year.

I don't think there is anything wrong with foreign schools. Some of my best friends are IMG's. I love you guys. Hey, if I had a 2.9, I wouldn't bother spending 2 years at community college. I would just send my application to St. George or AUC. But some of you need to grow up and stop playing the "I gotta be defensive and protect my school" game. Yeah, I know you go to SGU or Ross but that doesn't mean you have to come up with lame arguments to defend your school. I could be like the rest of you and argue that all DO's chose that route because they wanted to learn OMM. That argument wouldn't fly would it? Now you know how I feel about some of the things you guys say.

Very good post. At least w/ DO you could use that argument with people...Like oh, I really wanted to live in Arizona and U of A only takes AZ people, or oh, I reallllllllly wanted to learn OMM, or I had a DO as a kid...whatever. There's really no way of escaping the fact that you went to the carib because you couldn't go elsewhere. But again as a disclaimer i have nothing against IMGs and I would definately go there if I couldnt get in to DO

 

[novacek88]

It cracks me up to see people guess what the average GPA is at these foreign schools. Let's use SGU as an example. In one thread, someone mentioned 3.55. In another thread, it was 3.3. In this thread, their average GPA is 3.2What the heII? Which is it? Is this the Price is Right? Okay Bob, I will go with 3.1723 and my guess for their average mcat will be 23...that sound about right?

Instead of guessing what their gpa/mcat numbers are, why aren't any of you asking the real question: "Why should I have to guess what their numbers are?" Ding Ding Ding

This reminds of buying a car. The salesman doesn't want you to know what the price is. Some kid who is deciding between D.O. and foreign schools will be pretty turned off if they go to the Ross website and see 3.0/20 MCAT. These schools figured out it's in their best interest for for applicants to guess what their numbers because there is always some kid like jkmed who is going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[DD214_DOC]

It cracks me up to see people guess what the average GPA is at SGU, Ross or SGU. Let's use SGU as an example. In one thread, someone mentioned 3.55. In another thread, it was 3.3. In this thread, their average GPA is 3.2

Why don't you try checking SGU's mofo website before you post? I said I had gotten the numbers from various sources, including school websites. Here, I'll give you the link since you're too lazy to do it yourself.

http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/Medicine/FirstTermEntrantsMed.htm

Scroll down midway and you will see 3.2, 3.10, and 24.

 

[DD214_DOC]

SGU, Ross and AUC all require the MCAT but don't publish their entrance stats. Can you blame them?

That's funny, because I just posted them. SGU and AUC both have them on their website. Have you ever tried looking, or are you perpetuating hearsay?

 

[novacek88]

Why don't you try checking SGU's mofo website before you post? I said I had gotten the numbers from various sources, including school websites. Here, I'll give you the link since you're too lazy to do it yourself.

http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/Medicine/FirstTermEntrantsMed.htm

Scroll down midway and you will see 3.2, 3.10, and 24.

Finally!!! YES! And they even provided a GPA and MCAT distribution

Okay, now just give us the links for Ross and AUC

We are waiting