D.O. vs foreign MD

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housecleaning said:
{grabs a bucket of popcorn and pulls up a seat} this should be a good one.

Just bearly pulling up a chair now... haha.. How about we all just duke it out old school at the back of the hospital to end all aruguments (no guns or shanks, bats and chains ok, bare hands prefered). MD vs DO....IMG vs FMG then who ever winds advances in the Fight tournament. The winners treat the losers :horns:

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mr.weirdscience said:
It has two campuses. One is in Senegal and one is in Luton. The link you provided is for their Senegal campus.

Here is another link
St. Christopher's College of Medicine has campuses located in Luton, England and Dakar, Senegal. Having campuses in two very different locations such as this gives our institution a unique perspective on the learning experience.

The UK Campus is in Luton, and being just thirty miles north of London, one of the most popular capital cities in the World, it offers students a plethora of activities outside of the lecture room. The cultural diversity and the shear energy of the surrounding towns makes the location ideal for student life.


It's still the same school.. It grants the MD degree.. which is not a UK british system "undergraduate medical degree". No BMA british medical association would accredit a non MBBS/MBChB degree granting school. In the UK an MD is a research degree that is even higher than a PhD degree.

The school wants you to think it is a UK accredited school when in reality it is not! You can take an exam after finishing at St. Chris and apply to work in the UK upon graduation. Just like the caribean schools. which are similarly not acccredited in the US.

The MAIN campus for the school.. and the country where it is chartered is Senegal.. NOT England!
 
hopefulM.D. said:
I was wondering what is your impression of a school like Sackler, an Israeli medical school that has many connections with NY state residencies. I got accepted there and am most likely going to attend that school.


If your interested in attending medical school in isreal.. you may want to check out.. Ben Gurion University.
 
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Not even close. Those "preMatch" positions you refer to are the least desired of all residencies. Understand that the match rules require the program not to list a spot in the match if they already have contracted to fill it outside the match. For that reason, only spots extremely unlikely to fill inside the match are ever offered up for "out of match" contracts. Likewise, the IMG (regardless of citizenship) who signs one is basically admitting they themselves are unlikely to match or scramble into a spot. So, in short, to compare these folks to DOs who voluntarily subject themselves to the match and its rules is a disservice to this discussion.

Also the numbers you quoted

Quote:
Originally Posted by APACHE3
Of the foreign U.S. medical grads....
Matched: 1,143 54.7%
Unmatched: 948 45.3%

Of Osteopaths...
Matched: 1,045 68.8%
Unmatched: 479 31.4%

Of U.S. grads...
Matched: 13,798 93.7%
Unmatched: 921 6.3%


are the percentages of applicants who registered for the match, so to include IMGs who sign "preMatch" in your analysis is inaccurate. It is a violation of match rules to sign up for the match and then sign a "preMatch" contract.

The OP was trying to see which would serve them better, DO or IMG. You've actually made the case for DO!


First, since the IMG who prematches, never signs a Match agreement or officially withdraws for any number of reason..again NRMP has no idea how many there are, thus they are not breaking any rules. You are correct, that many of the spots are in less desirable areas, but so are a lot of Matched spots. It's also known that PD's will prematch to ensure their program does not pop up on March 18 as an "Unfilled" program and have to explain that to colleagues at the next annual meeting. But anyway, DO pathway is an excellent pathway and for many IMG's (US), it's also an excellent way to achieve a dream. There are just as many hurdles for DO pursuing an allopathis residency as an IMG so...to the OP, ust do your homework, research the area or programs you are interested in and apply.....GL :D
 
I don't care what everyone says, fact is MY car is faster than YOUR car. Period.
 
Letter ******.
 
OzDDS said:
It's still the same school.. It grants the MD degree.. which is not a UK british system "undergraduate medical degree". No BMA british medical association would accredit a non MBBS/MBChB degree granting school. In the UK an MD is a research degree that is even higher than a PhD degree.

The school wants you to think it is a UK accredited school when in reality it is not! You can take an exam after finishing at St. Chris and apply to work in the UK upon graduation. Just like the caribean schools. which are similarly not acccredited in the US.

The MAIN campus for the school.. and the country where it is chartered is Senegal.. NOT England!

Do you even know what you are arguing about now? The point of the discussion was American students will seek options overseas and England happens to be one of those destinations. No one suggested that St. Christophers was a proper UK accredited school or even representative of the British educational system. Then you denied such a school even exists. When several members such as myself provided evidence to the contrary and named St. Christopher as an example, you deny such a school exists. Then another member provides further proof that a campus in Lund exists. Instead of admitting you were wrong, you trump some weak retort about their Senegal campus being their main campus, which I'm certain you completely fabricated just to save whatever little credibility you have left on this thread.
 
daelroy said:
Do you even know what you are arguing about now? The point of the discussion was American students will seek options overseas and England happens to be one of those destinations. No one suggested that St. Christophers was a proper UK accredited school or even representative of the British educational system. Then you denied such a school even exists. When several members such as myself provided evidence to the contrary and named St. Christopher as an example, you deny such a school exists. Then another member provides further proof that a campus in Lund exists. Instead of admitting you were wrong, you trump some weak retort about their Senegal campus being their main campus, which I'm certain you completely fabricated just to save whatever little credibility you have left on this thread.

Erm.. or not!

Someone listed England as a country that Americans go to medical school if they are stupid and rich and are not capable of getting accepted at ANY of the US medical schools.. they grouped the competitiveness of ENglands medical schools with the likes of Caribean, Poland, India, and Mexico..

My point was.. that I don't think it is easy peasy to get accepted to PROPER UK accredited medical schools.

Simple as that..

Only Two schools were mentioned... (that were supposed to be easy to get in.. and all you need is a pulse and daddy's $$$)

RCSI and St. Chris.

Both of which I contested were not Proper UK accredited Medical schools

RCSI is an Irish school.. not England nor even the UK for that matter.
and St. Chris is the UK's equivilant to the US's caribean schools. St. Chris is neither accredited in the US nor the UK!!! It is a medical school that was chartered in Senegal.. in West Africa. THey may have a building or two in Luton.. but they are NOT an English medical school!!

I dont see how this is that difficult to understand? :confused:

All I'm trying to say is that I dont think England is a country that belongs in that grouping!


Peace! Focker out! :)
 
OzDDS said:
Erm.. or not!

Someone listed England as a country that Americans go to medical school if they are stupid and rich and are not capable of getting accepted at ANY of the US medical schools.. they grouped the competitiveness of ENglands medical schools with the likes of Caribean, Poland, and India..

My point was.. that I don't think it is easy peasy to get accepted to PROPER UK accredited medical schools.

Simple as that..

Only Two schools were mentioned... (that were supposed to be easy to get in.. and all you need is a pulse and daddy's $$$)

RCSI and St. Chris.

Both of which I contested were not Proper UK accredited Medical schools

RCSI is an Irish school.. not England nor even the UK for that matter.
and St. Chris is the UK's equivilant to the US's caribean schools. St. Chris is neither accredited in the US nor the UK!!! It is a medical school that was chartered in Senegal.. in West Africa. THey may have a building or two in Luton.. but they are NOT an English medical school!!

I dont see how this is that difficult to understand? :confused:

All I'm trying to say is that I dont think England is a country that belongs in that grouping!


Peace! Focker out! :)


You are alluding to Mr.WeirdScience's quote: "Then there are U.S. IMG's who are American citizens who couldn't get into a U.S. medical school and chose to go to the Carribean, England, Mexico, Poland or India."

What is not true about his above statement? St. Christophers is a school located in England. American students, who can't get into U.S. schools, will attend St. Christophers, which just so happens to be located in ENGLAND. The point of the discussion wasn't whether the school was a proper UK accredited school. The point he and pretty much every other person capable of rational thought understood was that Americans will attend medical schools located in these countries if they are not accepted into U.S. schools. Whether you think England belongs in that groups is immaterial. The only thing that counts are the facts. The fact is St. Christopher is a school located in England that does accept American students and operates very much in a fashion similar to Carribean schools. Now if you have trouble accepting that then perhaps you should e-mail the people at St. Christopher and ask them to move their Lund Campus to the Carribbean.

Seriously, this shouldn't be a difficult concept for anyone to grasp.
 
daelroy said:
St. Christophers is a school located in England. American students, who can't get into U.S. schools, will attend St. Christophers, which just so happens to be located in ENGLAND. The point of the discussion wasn't whether the school was a proper UK accredited school..


Which is why I gave the example of Ross.. which does have offices in New Jersy. So would you call Ross an "American Medical school" because it has buildings in New Jersey? Probably not!! So... by that rational. Where do you get off calling St. Chris an English medical school?

If its' not accedited by that country. You are guilty of misrepresentation by calling it a "insert country's name" medical school!
 
OzDDS said:
Which is why I gave the example of Ross.. which does have offices in New Jersy. So would you call Ross an "American Medical school" because it has buildings in New Jersey? Probably not!! So... by that rational. Where do you get off calling St. Chris an English medical school?

If its' not accedited by that country. You are guilty of misrepresentation by calling it a "insert country's name" medical school!

Ross doesn't have a campus in New Jersey. St. Christophers actually has a campus in Lund, England that students actually attend so you can't make that analogy.

And In regards to your second point, the OP never said "Americans attend British schools if they can't get into U.S. schools." He said "American citizens who couldn't get into a U.S. medical school and chose to go to the Carribean, England, Mexico, Poland or India."

The only one who is guilty is someone who lacks reading comprehension skills such as yourself and inteprets what he chooses to believe as opposed to taking something at face value. And to make it worse, you actually started fabricating information to support your argument: "Their campus is in Senegal not England" b.s. Give it up
 
daelroy said:
Seriously, this shouldn't be a difficult concept for anyone to grasp.


I agree! :) you seem to be the only one who is disagreeing with my statments.
 
{wouldn't you know it - just when it starts heating up i start running low on popcorn}

if history is any guide, $10 says this thread will end in the following way:
i. someone will post the latest match results from the most selective do & carib schools (tuoro & sgu?) showing the outrageously pathetic residency positions the osteopaths garner; and then
ii. one of the many osteopath moderators (i.e. fp's, or soon-to-be fp's - where are you tae kim?) sees this, says there's too much do bashing going on, and quickly closes the thread.
any takers?
 
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OzDDS said:
I agree! :) you seem to be the only one who is disagreeing with my statments.

I wasn't aware you were making statements. It seemed like you were spinning and trying to recover after being proven wrong, which you are still doing of course.

Please explain to everyone how St. Christophers doesn't have a campus in England and that their only campus is in Senegal.

That should be good for a laugh again.
 
daelroy said:
Ross doesn't have a campus in New Jersey. St. Christophers actually has a campus in Lund, England that students actually attend so you can't make that analogy.

Define "Campus".. if that means a few offices and some agreements with local hospitals for students to do rotations.. then Yes.. I guess your saying that Both St. Chris and Ross have "campuses" in their respective countries.. :)


daelroy said:
"Americans attend British schools if they can't get into U.S. schools."
"American citizens who couldn't get into a U.S. medical school and chose to go to the Carribean, England, Mexico, Poland or India." .

I'm sorry.. Can you explain how these two statements are legally any different from each other?

1) "American citizens who couldn't get into a US medical school choose to go to...England" .. and

2) "Americans attend British schools if they can't get into U.S. schools " :rolleyes:

daelroy said:
The only one who is guilty is someone who lacks reading comprehension skills such as yourself and inteprets what he chooses to believe as opposed to taking something at face value. And to make it worse, you actually started fabricating information to support your argument: "Their campus is Senegal not England" b.s. Give it up

Please tell me how I fabricated that St. Chris campus is located in Senegal! I'm actually really curious!
 
daelroy said:
I wasn't aware you were making statements. It seemed like you were spinning and trying to recover after being proven wrong, which you are still doing of course.

Please explain to everyone how St. Christophers doesn't have a campus in England and that their only campus is in Senegal.

That should be good for a laugh again.


I never said that their only campus is in senegal.. I said their main campus.. or (Chartered campus) is located there. They have a sattelite campus in Luton. ie. offices and hospital privledges for students to rotate.

Now your the one twisting my words.
 
OzDDS said:
I never said that their only campus is in senegal.. I said their main campus.. or (Chartered campus) is located there. They have a sattelite campus in Luton. ie. offices and hospital privledges for students to rotate.

Now your the one twisting my words.

sigh...

There you go spinning again trying to recover after being repeatedly being proven wrong. So, what is the story now; that students take their basic sciences in Senegal and do rotations in the UK?

Students take their basic sciences in Lund. They just have two campuses, it doesn't mean one campus serves the purpose of basic sciences, while the other offers clinicals. You are just contriving that to support your argument that St. Christopher doesn't exist in England.

"Our modern, state of the art campus offers wireless Internet access and a computer lab. The campus has a medical library, and students also have access to public libraries. Students may choose to reside in school housing or be assisted in renting from private landlords. Social services and religious advisors of all denominations are available, and all students receive free health care and dental coverage under the United Kingdom's National Health Service"

http://stchris.edu/about/uk.php

I can't wait to hear you spin your way out of this one; "Uh yeah but those students' bodies are only physically in England while their spiritual aura is in in Senegal. Yeah, that's it so you see St. Christopher doesn't exist in England."
 
OzDDS said:
Define "Campus".. if that means a few offices and some agreements with local hospitals for students to do rotations.. then Yes.. I guess your saying that Both St. Chris and Ross have "campuses" in their respective countries.. :)

No by campus, I'm alluding to dorms, a medical library, a computer lab etc.

"The Luton campus has a low student/teacher ratio, and a USMLE pass rate reported recently at 92%"
http://stchris.edu/about/uk.php

I'm sorry.. Can you explain how these two statements are legally any different from each other?

A British school is not the same thing as a medical school in England. For example, there are American schools in a variety of countries. In Singapore for example, you can attend American or British schools. Needless to say, if I attended an American highschool in Singapore, I'm not going to say I was in the United States for those 4 years of my life. You are basically saying that because St. Chris is not an official UK school, the school is not geographically located in England. The OP was merely indicating that American students will travel to campuses overseas to study medicine and England was one of those spots.

Please tell me how I fabricated that St. Chris campus is located in Senegal! I'm actually really curious!

Your quote in a previous response in this thread: " It just isn't true...You might want to read the following information regarding St.Chris and who founded it and where the school is really located!" alleging that it is "really" in Senegal and England.
 
If your trying to get me to admit that St. Chris has some facilities in England... Then sure.. Yes. They do!

If your trying to get me to state that St. Chris is an "English/British medical school". I will not, because that would be a lie.


FYI: St. Chris opened these facilities in England AFTER they charted the school in Senegal, West Africa.. it's country of origin and charter. (ie.. where the main campus of the school is based)
Click here!!
http://www.aaii.info/uehin.html

Why did they do this? Because of the exact reason we are arguing about! British Medical schools are top notch!!! These are not Medical schools that failed US med applicants are likely to gain acceptance to!
St. Chris's Senegalese founders know this fact!!! They are trying to get a free ride on England's good educational reputation! They opened facilities there and paid a lot of money to a web designer to make that pretty website so they could MARKET themselves to Americans with money to pay them lots of cash$$ in exchange for a medical degree. From I'm sorry.. but a west african country.. not England! :cool:


:thumbup:
 
OzDDS said:
If your trying to get me to admit that St. Chris has some facilities in England... Then sure.. Yes. They do!

Some...meaning you were wrong to suggest that a campus doesn't exist there when their own web site discusses their campus housing, student/teacher ratio, computer lab, etc.

If your trying to get me to state that St. Chris is an "English/British medical school". I will not, because that would be a lie.

Guess what, I'm not suggesting that and neither did anyone else. But the school is located in England and American students will travel there to study medicine. No one said the school was an official British school, they just said people will travel to England to attend one of these Ross type of schools. That's a fact

FYI: St. Chris opened these facilities in England AFTER they charted the school in Senegal, West Africa.. it's country of origin and charter. (ie.. where the main campus of the school is based)

I don't care if their charter is in Las Vegas. That is immaterial to this discussion since you denied that a campus even existed in England only to later curb your statement by saying it offerred rotation sites. Now you are implying you agree with me in that a campus exists there. The point was a campus in England exists. There is no need to state what you think is the situation there.

Why did they do this? Because of the exact reason we are arguing about! British Medical schools are top notch!!! These are not Medical schools that faild US med applicants are likely to gain acceptance to easily!

Again, who was arguing otherwise? Most countries have their own respective medical schools that are very reputable and are not open to foreign students. Even India has some amazing medical schools. But many of these countries including England have private schools that are not representative of their country's finest schools. They are essentially diploma mills. And yes, some of these schools are located in your beloved England. That is a fact. Now get over it
 
daelroy said:
many of these countries including England have private schools that are not representative of their country's finest schools. They are essentially diploma mills.

I just feel you are deliberatly attempting to word things in such a way as to continue to imply that st. chris is "English". And I just wanted to clearify that it was not! It isn't even a private English school.. it is a private Senegalese school.

Awesome!

Now that you've agreed with me that failed US med applicants are not likely to gain admission to UK accredited med schools. And that St. Chris is neither a British medical school nor accredited. I'm happy..

we cool? :)
 
OzDDS said:
I just feel you are deliberatly attempting to word things in such a way as to continue to imply that st. chris is "English". And I just wanted to clearify that it was not! It isn't even a private English school.. it is a private Senegalese school.

Awesome!

Now that you've agreed with me that failed US med applicants are not likely to gain admission to UK accredited med schools. And that St. Chris is neither a British medical school nor accredited. I'm happy..

we cool? :)

I think you went off on your own tangent and read what you wanted to read. We were merely stating that American students who can't get into medical schools in the United States will travel to countries like England, Ireland, Poland, India and Mexico. That's a true statement. While the rest of us took this statement at face value and understood what the OP meant, you just went off and assumed we were indicting British schools and suggested they all sucked. We didn't word anything dude. That was all in your head.

The fact is England has some Ross-type of schools. That's just a fact. They aren't British schools; we know that but it doesn't change the fact that St. Chris and some schools like them are located in England.

Do this makes sense now?
 
Wow that was the stupidest argument I've ever read. You're both saying the same exact thing and yet still arguing about it, somehow.

Maybe that makes this the smartest argument I've ever read then. I really don't know.
 
Kazema said:
Wow that was the stupidest argument I've ever read. You're both saying the same exact thing and yet still arguing about it, somehow.

Maybe that makes this the smartest argument I've ever read then. I really don't know.

I regretably agree with you. He was a fool for disputing the first point and being wrong, and I was an even bigger fool for taking the time to correct him.

It won't happen again. The next time someone decides to argue that St. Christophers is not in England, I will just agree with that person. Likewise, if someone argues Harvard is not in the United States because Mass. is a part of New England, I will similarly agree with that person. It doesn't pay to be accurate on SND any longer.
 
Shinken said:
I don't care what everyone says, fact is MY car is faster than YOUR car. Period.
Now why did you have to go and bring cars into this?? Focker :D
 
Just for the record, St. Christopher's *IS* an English school.

And so is St. George's (check out this website http://www.sgul.ac.uk/). People think it's based in Grenada, but Grenada is actually a British territory, just like Senegal.

:smuggrin:
 
> but Grenada is actually a British territory, just like Senegal.

???????????????????????

Home > Senegal > Government > Independence
4 April 1960 (from France); note - complete independence was achieved upon dissolution of federation with Mali on 20 August 1960
 
Ok.. Please do.. Attend St. Chris. Then when you finish and during your residency interviews the program director asks where you went to medical school, and you say "England just north of london".. and he/she asks.. "oh really, which school".. watch them try to hide a smirke after you tell him St. Chris! Good Luck with your future career! :thumbup:
 
Shinken said:
Just for the record, St. Christopher's *IS* an English school.

And so is St. George's (check out this website http://www.sgul.ac.uk/). People think it's based in Grenada, but Grenada is actually a British territory, just like Senegal.

:smuggrin:

So..
http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/home/index.htm
and..
http://www.sgul.ac.uk

are the same school?

So everyone does the same course.. and they just give an MBBS degree to students who come from the UK and MDs to students who come from North America?
 

If some one wants to get an appreciation of HOUSECLEANING's "mindset" than simply a cursory review of his prior post's in this (SDN) forum will quickly give one. He injects his mean spirited "bent" against D.Os and IMGs into every oppurtunity. Even given the premise (gladly) that he has the right to state his opinion on the (ostensibly) woeful inadequacies of D.Os and IMGs, his frequently hostile, rambling and poorly written posts strike me as empiric , albeit depressing, proof positive that some people with little character, pathetic social skills, and even less competence using the English language gain admission to medical school (M.D. and D.O.) on a regular basis in this country. I am a D.O., but I think it's the relentless mean spiritedness of the man's posts that color my opinion the most. I may not agree with Housecleanings opinions concerning D.O. and IMG graduates (in fact, I certainly do not), but I certainly agree he has a right to state them as often as he pleases.

However, I wonder if he realizes just how sad and small he comes off as reflected by his contributions in this forum. I rarely post here, and have no reason to do so in a forum primarily for people at the very start of ther medical careers. In fact, my career will be over in just a few years at about the 30 year mark. There has been rarely a day since my graduation that I have not felt appreciative as hell that I had the chance to make my life so meaningful through a career in Medicine. As my father (an attorney) used to say, "At least in that business you know you are doing something good for some one damned near every day." I could not put it any better. And, Unfortunately, the years do roll by, but some of the jerks are always with us in Medicine. It's just that the faces and names change. For a splendid, recent example of Housecleaning's eloquence and good nature I refer you to his rants on "DO Neuro Surgery myth or reality?" under the Osteopathic Forums (05/05).

Oh well, if nothing else, I feel better after this post.) God bless, all here, at any rate.)



GTleeee D.O.


 
gtleeee said:

If some one wants to get an appreciation of HOUSECLEANING's "mindset" than simply a cursory review of his prior post's in this (SDN) forum will quickly give one. He injects his mean spirited "bent" against D.Os and IMGs into every oppurtunity. Even given the premise (gladly) that he has the right to state his opinion on the (ostensibly) woeful inadequacies of D.Os and IMGs, his frequently hostile, rambling and poorly written posts strike me as empiric , albeit depressing, proof positive that some people with little character, pathetic social skills, and even less competence using the English language gain admission to medical school (M.D. and D.O.) on a regular basis in this country. I am a D.O., but I think it's the relentless mean spiritedness of the man's posts that color my opinion the most. I may not agree with Housecleanings opinions concerning D.O. and IMG graduates (in fact, I certainly do not), but I certainly agree he has a right to state them as often as he pleases.

However, I wonder if he realizes just how sad and small he comes off as reflected by his contributions in this forum. I rarely post here, and have no reason to do so in a forum primarily for people at the very start of ther medical careers. In fact, my career will be over in just a few years at about the 30 year mark. There has been rarely a day since my graduation that I have not felt appreciative as hell that I had the chance to make my life so meaningful through a career in Medicine. As my father (an attorney) used to say, "At least in that business you know you are doing something good for some one damned near every day." I could not put it any better. And, Unfortunately, the years do roll by, but some of the jerks are always with us in Medicine. It's just that the faces and names change. For a splendid, recent example of Housecleaning's eloquence and good nature I refer you to his rants on "DO Neuro Surgery myth or reality?" under the Osteopathic Forums (05/05).

Oh well, if nothing else, I feel better after this post.) God bless, all here, at any rate.)



GTleeee D.O.



if little birds in their nests agree, then why can't we? {{{hugs}}} there, now we both feel better.
 
Taus said:
I am a future D.O. and I will say that DaelRoy's post was pretty much on point except for one minor detail. There isn't a "huge discrepancy" in admission standards at US allo vs osteo schools as you described. From the stats that I have seen (and I'm sure if you look at the links posted above you will find them) the dif. in avg matriculating GPA is usually around 3.4 vs. 3.6 and avg MCAT is usually around 26-29 for osteo and 29-32 for allo. There are and will always be exceptions, but the stats show the above numbers. I know that shows a diference, but not a "huge discrepancy".

Except for those minor details, I agree completely with the above post, and in an effort to save to OP time, all of the previous posts about this topic largely favor the D.O. option vs. the foreign M.D.

DO schools have artificially high GPAs, bc they allow students to replace bad grades by retaking a class. Carrib and American schools don't allow for that.

If someone had like a 3.0 gpa, they could spend a year after graduation and retake the classes they did bad in their frosh and soph years, and could probably get their gpa up to a 3.4 or 3.5 by replacing old grades.
 
housecleaning said:
if little birds in their nests agree, then why can't we? {{{hugs}}} there, now we both feel better.








As Priscilla said in "The Courtship of Miles Standish"...."Speak for yourself John")
 
Shinken said:
I don't care what everyone says, fact is MY car is faster than YOUR car. Period.
My Bike is faster than your car...... :smuggrin:
 

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NRAI2001 said:
DO schools have artificially high GPAs, bc they allow students to replace bad grades by retaking a class. Carrib and American schools don't allow for that.

If someone had like a 3.0 gpa, they could spend a year after graduation and retake the classes they did bad in their frosh and soph years, and could probably get their gpa up to a 3.4 or 3.5 by replacing old grades.
what's your point?? there are plenty of people like myself who jacked off as a little 19 year old and did poorly and then got their act together later on. If the second grade is indicative of your actual ability and performance in that course, then why not have it replace the first one??
 
NRAI2001 said:
DO schools have artificially high GPAs, bc they allow students to replace bad grades by retaking a class. Carrib and American schools don't allow for that.

If someone had like a 3.0 gpa, they could spend a year after graduation and retake the classes they did bad in their frosh and soph years, and could probably get their gpa up to a 3.4 or 3.5 by replacing old grades.
If someone wants to take the time and effort to re-take classes that they have passed and have the motivation to get an A, more power to them, as they have proved that they are capable. I personally don't think its that common (or economically feasible) for a large proportion of students to go back and take a whole year's worth of classes. A few classes, sure, why not? From my experience with peers doing this, it hasn't been to raise their gpa, but to prove to adcoms that they can handle difficult science classes. Honestly, even taking 3-4 classes over again is not going to do much to a GPA that has over 120 credits figured into it. All in all, a few .1 or maybe .2 jumps here and there in students DO GPA's isn't going to "inflate" the avg. matriculating GPA at DO schools by any means. Keep in mind that this is just my opinion and is based on logical observations and not statisics......so I could be wrong.....

Either way.....this has def been an interesting and strange thread to follow....
 
housecleaning said:
{wouldn't you know it - just when it starts heating up i start running low on popcorn}

if history is any guide, $10 says this thread will end in the following way:
i. someone will post the latest match results from the most selective do & carib schools (tuoro & sgu?) showing the outrageously pathetic residency positions the osteopaths garner; and then
ii. one of the many osteopath moderators (i.e. fp's, or soon-to-be fp's - where are you tae kim?) sees this, says there's too much do bashing going on, and quickly closes the thread.
any takers?
what's your beef with do's?? did you get rejected by a DO school?? did a DO student school you in a rotation?? did a DO resident get chief over you?? seriously, i'm just curious as to why you care enough to go out of your way to bash DO's. it must burn you inside to know there are some DO's out there that are better doctors and probably more intelligent than you.
 
HoodyHoo said:
what's your point?? there are plenty of people like myself who jacked off as a little 19 year old and did poorly and then got their act together later on. If the second grade is indicative of your actual ability and performance in that course, then why not have it replace the first one??

My point is that someone said that DO schools are much better than foreign carribean schools bc DO schools have much higher GPA's than the carrib. schools. They said that DO schools have avg gpa's around 3.4 and that carrib schools are more around 3.2.

I was just trying to make the point that this is probably bc DO schools allow people to retake classes, and completely replace the grade.

Your right that most of the people who do have lower gpa's did bad their fresh and soph year, and then cleaned up their acts jr. and snr. years. I have a 3.4 gpa and I calculated that if I retook and complelety replaced (got a few C's) just one semester of my soph year that my gpa would jump to a 3.6. If I just retook and didn't replace, my gpa wouldn't move that much. If someone spent a year doing a post bacc and retook all the classes they didn't do good in, they could significantly raise their gpa.
 
HoodyHoo said:
And trust me, your grades and MCAT score don't mean a damn thing in the clinical world.

right. The "clinical world" is a world where your knowledge and reasoning skills have no bearing whatsoever. In fact, you could be a great doctor if you just scraped by in med school with the bare minumum grades and scores, because, of course, your "clinical" skills were awesome. Possible but unlikely.
 
housecleaning said:
{wouldn't you know it - just when it starts heating up i start running low on popcorn}

if history is any guide, $10 says this thread will end in the following way:
i. someone will post the latest match results from the most selective do & carib schools (tuoro & sgu?) showing the outrageously pathetic residency positions the osteopaths garner; and then
ii. one of the many osteopath moderators (i.e. fp's, or soon-to-be fp's - where are you tae kim?) sees this, says there's too much do bashing going on, and quickly closes the thread.
any takers?

Ready to see this thread close, asshat?


Here is my submission to the AAMC for an MCAT question:


Why does "housecleaning" go from thread to thread, topic to topic, bashing pretty much everyone and anyone it can on SDN? ('it' referring to 'housecleaning')

a) it is not in med school

b) it wants be in med school and can't get in for whatever reason

c) it supposes it has a phallus, but needs a roadmap to find it

d) it is about 5 foot nothin and has a "Napolean" complex, as well as the dimunitive penis to show for it

e) all of the above


If I had to take the MCAT again, I probably would go with the answer 'e". Well whata ya know, a DO who can actually pick out the right answer! Holy ****!!

I may indeed be wrong....housecleaning may be a stellar human being....an upstanding citizen....who is already an MD and part of the alumni assoc. of Harvard Medical School, and has a big fat 43 on the MCAT to show off. Even if it's true, it doesn't matter none - housecleaning is still a pathetic piece of ****. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Sincerely,

your friendly non-FP D.O., Dr. Feelgood


and it DEFINITELY is "DOCTOR" to you, assclown
 
I wonder just what it is that makes everyone so nutty about this subject? I have yet to meet a DO or an FMG or an IMG or a US MD that I could make a judgment about based upon where they went to school. The top percentage of St. George's students get good residencies in competitive fields. It's a fact. The bottom percentage often end up matching in some god forsaken IM or FP program. That's a fact too. And in between are people who sign outside the match at good programs, really good programs, excellent programs, and so-so programs.

We make judgments of doctors on all kinds of levels. I know arrogant dingus doctors that came from India and ones that came from NYC and ones that came from Alabama. I know great doctors with sound clinical judgment that everyone loves that came from all those places also. What happens, I think, is that those with degrees that they feel are pedigree programs (which is only a matter of subjective opinion anyway, afterall, what's the basis for this ranking?) propagate the notion that these programs, that we're brought up thinking are somehow the "best", are indeed the "best" simply by claiming so. It's like in NYC: Everyone, from the trash collectors to the guy making your sandwhich in the deli, believes simply being in NYC makes them the "best" at what they do. No other deli sandwhich maker in the world could possibly be as good as they are. Not someone from Minneapolis. Certainly not a deli man from east butt **** Arkansas.

I'm not saying that a large institution that is full of 4.0 students that drive state of the art breakthrough research or technology is not somehow "above" other instituions. It's just that those institutions don't represent the majority of schools that simply crank out doctors to take care of the minions in the U.S. who are sick and who are not in need of the most highly sophisticated wizadry available. There is a pecking order. But that pecking order is mostly arbitrary, and is reinforced by people such as yourselves who have some weird need to find a way to put others below themselves. I find this a repugnant and counterproductive act, considering you all are supposed to be in this business to serve the needs of others. I suppose most, if not all of you, are just ignorant and making judgments based upon what you've "heard", or upon some NRMP figures you've decided you're expert at interpreting.
 
sunnyjohn said:
These ARE NOT the same school. St G's in London is attached to the UNIVERSITY OF LONDON.

My point exactly! St. George's in Grenada is a branch campus of the University of London. It opened in 1927 after the great revolution, and American med students have been benefiting ever since. As part of the agreement between the British Commonwealth of Grenada and the parent country (Great Britain), the school could not use its affiliation with the University of London for marketing purposes. The U. of London thought that St. George's in Grenada wouldn't be able to attract students on its own, but they were wrong. The Grenada school is doing so well, in fact, that it has never had the need to use its affiliation to promote itself. The latest string of successes has culminated with St. George's opening a branch school in Arizona, to start accepting students the Fall of 2006.

PS: My car *AND* my bike (*AND* my girlfriend) are faster than anyone else's car/bike/girlfriend.

PPS: My match list is better than yours.
 
Shinken said:
My point exactly! St. George's in Grenada is a branch campus of the University of London. It opened in 1927 after the great revolution, and American med students have been benefiting ever since. As part of the agreement between the British Commonwealth of Grenada and the parent country (Great Britain), the school could not use its affiliation with the University of London for marketing purposes. The U. of London thought that St. George's in Grenada wouldn't be able to attract students on its own, but they were wrong. The Grenada school is doing so well, in fact, that it has never had the need to use its affiliation to promote itself. The latest string of successes has culminated with St. George's opening a branch school in Arizona, to start accepting students the Fall of 2006.
You're having a lot of fun with this topic, aren't you? :) ..."the great revolution", "an agreement regarding marketing"...:):):)

For anyone who might be confused by St. George's, University of London and St. George's University in the Caribbean, there's no connection between them.

The Guardian put St. George's first in their 1999 ranking of UK medical schools, and an American student would probably have an easier time getting into Harvard than getting into St. George's. Indeed an American student who makes it into any UK med school would likely have met the academic standards for most American med schools.

Posters can discuss DO vs Allo and fmg vs img all they want (there is clearly an extra hurdle with a foreign degree) but I don't think there' any "stigma" whatsoever with a med degree from any UK accredited school.
 
brightblueeyes said:
You're having a lot of fun with this topic, aren't you? :) ..."the great revolution", "an agreement regarding marketing"...:):):)

For anyone who might be confused by St. George's, University of London and St. George's University in the Caribbean, there's no connection between them.

The Guardian put St. George's first in their 1999 ranking of UK medical schools, and an American student would probably have an easier time getting into Harvard than getting into St. George's. Indeed an American student who makes it into any UK med school would likely have met the academic standards for most American med schools.
Posters can discuss DO vs Allo and fmg vs img all they want (there is clearly an extra hurdle with a foreign degree) but I don't think there' any "stigma" whatsoever with a med degree from any UK accredited school.


Thank You!!! Finally an intelligent response from someone who knows what their talking about. :thumbup:
 
NRAI2001 said:
DO schools have artificially high GPAs, bc they allow students to replace bad grades by retaking a class. Carrib and American schools don't allow for that.

If someone had like a 3.0 gpa, they could spend a year after graduation and retake the classes they did bad in their frosh and soph years, and could probably get their gpa up to a 3.4 or 3.5 by replacing old grades..

Your analysis above is seriously flawed. Yes, you are right, if one theoretically re-took every class he did bad in, he could raise his GPA that high. However, the number of classes that would entail would be many such 30 to 40 hours worth of classes. Furthermore, due to scheduling conflicts, a person would realistically need at least 2 years to repeat those grades. Finally, those grades still have Repeat next to them. DO schools look at your transcript so if they see you repeated 10-20 classes, you would have a huge red flag by your application and wouldn't be admitted unless you had a damn good explanation like multiple deaths in the family or you were enduring chemotherapy for your first two years.

Let's also add the fact that DO schools have higher MCAT's than Carribbean students. In fact, until just 3 years ago, St. George was the only Carribbean school to require the MCAT and utilize it as an evaluation tool for admissions. Around 2000, Ross required the MCAT but didn't actually use it to evaluate students in admissions until three years later.

Maybe the trend has changed recently but in the past, people with 14 MCAT's were getting into Ross because they were solely evaluated on their GPA and these candidates were not required to submit an MCAT score. So Ross, AUC and schools like that wouldn't even know how badly a student did on the MCAT. A lot of the former Carribbean grads were students, who for whatever reason, couldn't attain a respectable MCAT score such a 23 or 24. They would submit their 3.0 GPA and not their 16 MCAT's and get accepted. We all know students who can't test well for whatever reason. There are a lot of Carribbean grads with sub 20 MCAT's and decent GPA's. This is a big reason why Carribbean grads have lower USMLE passage rates than DO students. People who do well on standardized tests tend to do well in general. This is why Allopathic students generally do better on the boards than Osteopathic students. They have higher MCAT scores and that correlates with higher USMLE Step I passage rates. But this is also why Osteopathic students do better than Carribbean students on the boards. And let's remember that Carribbean students spend 6 months preparing for boards while Allopathic and Osteopathic students spend 6 weeks on average.

It's easy to assume that all Carribbean students were students who deliberately chose to attend St. George, Ross or AUC over a DO school but that would be like suggesting that all DO students chose to attend a DO school over an Allopathic school. I'm certain there are many students who could have gotten into a DO school but chose to attend Ross. I know that many CA residents have competitive stats but will elect to attend St. George or Ross because their state medical schools are too competitive unlike say Oklahoma, Mississippi and other states whose allopathic entrance stats are comparable to many DO schools. That being said, we all also know several students at Carribbean schools who wouldn't have stood a chance at getting into a DO school. There are quite a few number of 2.8, 20 MCAT students who are going to Ross and AUC. St. George is the only school that any stringent requirements whatsoever.

Lastly, do any of you find it strange that Carribbean schools aside from maybe St. George refuse to post their average entrance statistics. For the longest times, these schools refused to post these statistics. It was fairly obvious, they were deliberately trying to cover up their weak scores. Whereas, DO schools have consistently published their entrance stats without shame.
 
brightblueeyes said:
You're having a lot of fun with this topic, aren't you? :) ..."the great revolution", "an agreement regarding marketing"...:):):)

For anyone who might be confused by St. George's, University of London and St. George's University in the Caribbean, there's no connection between them.

The Guardian put St. George's first in their 1999 ranking of UK medical schools, and an American student would probably have an easier time getting into Harvard than getting into St. George's. Indeed an American student who makes it into any UK med school would likely have met the academic standards for most American med schools.

Posters can discuss DO vs Allo and fmg vs img all they want (there is clearly an extra hurdle with a foreign degree) but I don't think there' any "stigma" whatsoever with a med degree from any UK accredited school.

"FUN" ?!? With a DO vs MD vs FMG topic ? Nooooo.

OK, yes I was having some fun. Did you like my "great revolution" construct? I bet you $10 some poster is going to go to the International Forum and post a desperate message to get more information on how to apply to St. George's in Arizona for the entering class of 2006.
 
OzDDS said:
Ok.. Please do.. Attend St. Chris. Then when you finish and during your residency interviews the program director asks where you went to medical school, and you say "England just north of london".. and he/she asks.. "oh really, which school".. watch them try to hide a smirke after you tell him St. Chris! Good Luck with your future career! :thumbup:

What is pathetic is that we were agreeing with you the first time. None of us argued that St. Chris was a British school. We just simply argued that it was in England and that Americans will flee to England to attend Ross-like schools such as St. Chris. That is a true statement but for whatever reason, you would argue otherwise. None of us claimed it was a British school or that British medical schools were diploma mills. There are foreign students who come to the U.S. to attend diploma mills such as the University of Phoenix. If someone said, foreigners, who couldn't get accepted into their own country's business schools, attend schools in the United States, they would be stating a fact. A lot of foreigners will attend Devry, ITT Tech etc.. If someone made this comment, I'm not going to assume he was talking about Harvard and Stanford.
 
{switching from popcorn to chocolates.} i feel guilty that i'm taking all of this in for free. better than the orchestra seats i had to les mis at the curran a couple of weeks ago. i've laughed; i've cried; i've laughed again...

carry on.
 
daelroy said:
Your analysis above is seriously flawed. Yes, you are right, if one theoretically re-took every class he did bad in, he could raise his GPA that high. However, the number of classes that would entail would be many such 30 to 40 hours worth of classes. Furthermore, due to scheduling conflicts, a person would realistically need at least 2 years to repeat those grades. Finally, those grades still have Repeat next to them. DO schools look at your transcript so if they see you repeated 10-20 classes, you would have a huge red flag by your application and wouldn't be admitted unless you had a damn good explanation like multiple deaths in the family or you were enduring chemotherapy for your first two years.

Let's also add the fact that DO schools have higher MCAT's than Carribbean students. In fact, until just 3 years ago, St. George was the only Carribbean school to require the MCAT and utilize it as an evaluation tool for admissions. Around 2000, Ross required the MCAT but didn't actually use it to evaluate students in admissions until three years later.

Maybe the trend has changed recently but in the past, people with 14 MCAT's were getting into Ross because they were solely evaluated on their GPA and these candidates were not required to submit an MCAT score. So Ross, AUC and schools like that wouldn't even know how badly a student did on the MCAT. A lot of the former Carribbean grads were students, who for whatever reason, couldn't attain a respectable MCAT score such a 23 or 24. They would submit their 3.0 GPA and not their 16 MCAT's and get accepted. We all know students who can't test well for whatever reason. There are a lot of Carribbean grads with sub 20 MCAT's and decent GPA's. This is a big reason why Carribbean grads have lower USMLE passage rates than DO students. People who do well on standardized tests tend to do well in general. This is why Allopathic students generally do better on the boards than Osteopathic students. They have higher MCAT scores and that correlates with higher USMLE Step I passage rates. But this is also why Osteopathic students do better than Carribbean students on the boards. And let's remember that Carribbean students spend 6 months preparing for boards while Allopathic and Osteopathic students spend 6 weeks on average.

It's easy to assume that all Carribbean students were students who deliberately chose to attend St. George, Ross or AUC over a DO school but that would be like suggesting that all DO students chose to attend a DO school over an Allopathic school. I'm certain there are many students who could have gotten into a DO school but chose to attend Ross. I know that many CA residents have competitive stats but will elect to attend St. George or Ross because their state medical schools are too competitive unlike say Oklahoma, Mississippi and other states whose allopathic entrance stats are comparable to many DO schools. That being said, we all also know several students at Carribbean schools who wouldn't have stood a chance at getting into a DO school. There are quite a few number of 2.8, 20 MCAT students who are going to Ross and AUC. St. George is the only school that any stringent requirements whatsoever.

Lastly, do any of you find it strange that Carribbean schools aside from maybe St. George refuse to post their average entrance statistics. For the longest times, these schools refused to post these statistics. It was fairly obvious, they were deliberately trying to cover up their weak scores. Whereas, DO schools have consistently published their entrance stats without shame.

You made some good points, I just dont like it how everyone is bashing the carrib. schools. Yes there are some really bad and shady ones, but ROSS and SGU seem to have decent stats.

They have some really good residency placements, where the majority of them are at university programs.
 
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