COVID-19

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‎Pediatrica intensiva: Italian COVID19 experience on Apple Podcasts

Experience of two ICU physicians out of Italy. Sorry there is a slight pediatric slant, but considering they turned the whole hospital into an isolation unit...

I mean, they have infectious disease physicians managing non-invasive ventilation due to staffing.
Awesome podcast.
I was on the phone w my cousin in East Africa when my nine year old nephew claimed, “This Corona Virus is good for doctors”.
From the mouth of babes.
Guess my demand is gonna go up.

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A quick note on HFNC and BiPAP.

Both are likely safe. BiPAP may have limited utility.

EMRAP IBCC article:

From the WHO recommendations for COVID:

" Remark 3: Recent publications suggest that newer HFNO and NIV systems with good interface fitting do not create widespread dispersion of exhaled air and therefore should be associated with low risk of airborne transmission.29-31"
-https://www.who.int/docs/default-so...management-of-novel-cov.pdf?sfvrsn=bc7da517_2 (currently the treatment document linked by CDC, but published in January)

Source 29: Comparison of high-flow nasal cannula versus oxygen face mask for environmental bacterial contamination in critically ill pneumonia patients: a ran... - PubMed - NCBI
30: Exhaled air dispersion during high-flow nasal cannula therapy versus CPAP via different masks. - PubMed - NCBI
31: Exhaled air dispersion during noninvasive ventilation via helmets and a total facemask. - PubMed - NCBI
 
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Based on that Podcast with the Italian docs, they are operating like they are in a war zone.
As in, save the younger ones who have a decent shot at recovery and put the older ones in palliative.
In this country, I see that will be a problem since we love to sink hundreds of thousands of dollars on 85year old Grandpa/ma in MSOF. When we shouldn’t. If this turns into a pandemic here, then I guess we shall learn how to utilize limited resources for a change. Amen!

He said his cutoff for ECMO was 69 I think. Without any comorbidities.

And the anesthesiologists where doing Peds ICU but the female doc acknowledged they weren’t doing the best job so were transferring out to other centers.

Oh boy. I am no peds expert. But I can look up UpToDate as I go.
 
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And he also advocated steroids.
Yeah, early steroids (<7 days before onset) before the fibroproliferative stage. The concept is not really unheard of...


That particular guy in Italy used 1 mg/kg Q6 x10 days.

One would imagine in the patients with leukopenia, the effects are diminished and more problematic.
 
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Yeah, early steroids (<7 days before onset) before the fibroproliferative stage. The concept is not really unheard of...


That particular guy in Italy used 1 mg/kg Q6 x10 days.

One would imagine in the patients with leukopenia, the effects are diminished and more problematic.
Ok, so yeah, know that it’s not an unheard of concept. I am saying specifically with this illness on this forum; people keep saying no steroids, which he didn’t agree with.
But Thanks for the study link.
 
Ok, so yeah, know that it’s not an unheard of concept. I am saying specifically with this illness on this forum; people keep saying no steroids, which he didn’t agree with.
But Thanks for the study link.
Yeah, I don’t think anyone can say emphatically yes or no indications in a novel disease...
 
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I had a patient in clinic actually ask me an intelligent question, stated "I've had my full schedule of immunization, in accordance with everything the CDC has ever recommended (all childhood shots, HPV, MCV, etc etc), and I've had the flu shot yearly for the last 20 years (in the military, you have to). Does any of that protect against new viral infections such as COVID?"

I told him No, not necessarily. That you have a lot of IgG floating around from your immunizations may help, maybe there's some cross reactivity, but how much it help (if at all) is unclear.

Am I right there? Thoughts? I guess its too early to tell if compliance with other immunizations has an impact on covid.
It won't protect against COVID but it might protect against secondary bacterial infection after getting SARS-COV-2019 (or the flu or other viruses).
 
I strongly recommend subscribing to Rob Mac Sweeney's critical care newsletter, for coverage of new critical care papers, including Covid-19. The next issue should come out at the end of the week.

Here's the link:
 
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Relevant to the discussion above...
“Among patients with ARDS, treatment with methylprednisolone decreased the risk of death (HR, 0.38; 95% CI, 0.20-0.72).”
 
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Anybody proning awake, non intubated pts? Our hospital is requesting we not put these pts on NIV or HHF to reduce aerosolization. I’m thinking proning while on NC may improve oxygenation and may prevent or at least delay intubation. What do y’all think?

Relevant to the discussion above...
“Among patients with ARDS, treatment with methylprednisolone decreased the risk of death (HR, 0.38; 95% CI, 0.20-0.72).”

My understanding is that during the 2003 SARS epidemic administration of corticosteroids had no benefit and possibly increased the length of time to viral clearance. The current WHO guidelines only recommend considering corticosteroids for Covid patients who also have septic shock not responsive to IVF or vasopressors.

 
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My understanding is that during the 2003 SARS epidemic administration of corticosteroids had no benefit and possibly increased the length of time to viral clearance. The current WHO guidelines only recommend considering corticosteroids for Covid patients who also have septic shock not responsive to IVF or vasopressors.

So they recommended not for early ARDS, which actually has some data behind it, and instead for the group that been tested thousands of times that has never been shown to have any consistent benefit on survival?

1584388760174.gif
 
From Italy with love...

 
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Our pt got tocilizumab and antiviral and plaque il and still didn't make it

Got those meds up front, or later in the course? Somewhat reminiscent of sepsis, where if somethings gonna work, it works best when given up front early during admission. No?
 
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Got those meds up front, or later in the course? Somewhat reminiscent of sepsis, where if somethings gonna work, it works best when given up front early during admission. No?
The highest chances for any therapeutic intervention to work are always in the beginning.
 
The highest chances for any therapeutic intervention to work are always in the beginning.

True, hence my question. Problem here is I see a lot of doctors having hesitation (can't blam em!) in throwing random things at patients, especially in the early stages, when they may not look so sick. For instance, if the patient is a little dyspnic, on just NC, but hasn't gone into full ARDS yet. Can you justify giving him plaquenil or an antiviral upfront. I dunno, these are tough times
 
True, hence my question. Problem here is I see a lot of doctors having hesitation (can't blam em!) in throwing random things at patients, especially in the early stages, when they may not look so sick. For instance, if the patient is a little dyspnic, on just NC, but hasn't gone into full ARDS yet. Can you justify giving him plaquenil or an antiviral upfront. I dunno, these are tough times
Yes, they are. These are all experimental treatments, and we have little (if any) reliable data.

The one thing the federal government/Congress should do, if they had any brains, is to suspend tort/malpractice laws for the duration of the pandemic. Otherwise people will die because physicians and hospitals will be afraid to do the right thing when push comes to shove. This is not the time to practice defensive medicine. This ain't China or Italy.
 
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50ish, had autoimmune disease with multiple comorbid illnesses but living independently prior, got everything after intubation/ards had already happened. Not offered ecmo due to concern for fibrotic progression
 
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50ish, had autoimmune disease with multiple comorbid illnesses but living independently prior, got everything after intubation/ards had already happened. Not offered ecmo due to concern for fibrotic progression
So what is the indication for ECMO at your institute because we put people with ARDS on ECMO? Theoretically any ARDS could become fibrotic (unless they already have chronic or progressive lung disease at baseline).

Just curious
 
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On March 13th, 2020, Himalaya Capital's founder, Li Lu, organized and hosted a panel of experts leading the fight against COVID-19. Critical insights were shared from the front line of China's fight against COVID-19, such as ICU lessons, the protocols put in place and the treatment methodologies and practices used to stem the spread of the virus.

Panel speakers were, in order;
Dr. Peng, the director of ICU of Wuhan University Zhongnan Hospital in Wuhan
Dr. Cao, the vice-president of China-Japan Friendship Hospital, author of China’s Guideline of Diagnosis and Treatment of COVID-19
Dr. Zhang, head of infectious disease at Fudan University Huashan Hospital in Shanghai
 
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So what is the indication for ECMO at your institute because we put people with ARDS on ECMO? Theoretically any ARDS could become fibrotic (unless they already have chronic or progressive lung disease at baseline).

Just curious
Baseline ild was present before ards. Autoimmune disease was advanced as well with ckd.
 
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I'm a lowly hospitalist, but I appreciate this thread as I'll be looking to it for updates. They just designated my hospital a covid center and have set up designated wards. The cases are starting to pop all over. I hope of all hopes it does not get to the Italy level.
 
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Has anyone tried APRV for their Covid-19 patients?
 
I'm going to leave this here:

From a Seattle-based intensivist. Very helpful for clinicians preparing for their front-line barrage. Thanks for sharing from the hot zone.

This is from a front-line ICU physician:

* we have 21 pts and 11 deaths since 2/28.
* we are seeing pts who are young (20s), fit, no comorbidities, critically ill. It does happen.
* US has been past containment since January
* Currently, all of ICU is for critically ill COVIDs, all of floor medsurg for stable COVIDs and EOL care, half of PCU, half of ER. New resp-sx pts Pulmonary Clinic offshoot is open
* CDC is no longer imposing home quarantine on providers who were wearing only droplet iso PPE when intubating, suctioning, bronching, and in one case doing bloody neurosurgery. Expect when it comes to your place you may initially have staff home-quarantined. Plan for this NOW. Consider wearing airborne iso PPE for aerosol-generating procedures in ANY pt in whom you suspect COVID, just to prevent the mass quarantines.

* we ran out of N95s (thanks, Costco hoarders) and are bleaching and re-using PAPRs, which is not the manufacturer's recommendation. Not surprised on N95s as we use mostly CAPRs anyway, but still.

*terminal cleans (inc UV light) for ER COVID rooms are taking forever, Enviro Services is overwhelmed. Bad as pts are stuck coughing in the waiting room. Rec planning now for Enviro upstaffing, or having a plan for sick pts to wait in their cars (that is not legal here, sadly).

* CLINICAL INFO based on our cases and info from CDC conf call today with other COVID providers in US:
* the Chinese data on 80% mildly ill, 14% hospital-ill, 6-8% critically ill are generally on the mark. Data very skewed by late and very limited testing, and the number of our elderly pts going to comfort care. - being young & healthy (zero medical problems) does not rule out becoming vented or dead - probably the time course to developing significant lower resp sx is about a week or longer (which also fits with timing of sick cases we started seeing here, after we all assumed it was endemic as of late Jan/early Feb). - based on our hospitalized cases (including the not formally diagnosed ones who are obviously COVID - it is quite clinically unique) about 1/3 have mild lower resp sx, need 1-5L NC. 1/3 are sicker, FM or NRB. 1/3 tubed with ARDS. Thus far, everyone is seeing: - nl WBC. Almost always lymphopenic, occasionally poly-predominant but with nl total WBC. Doesn't change, even 10days in. - BAL lymphocytic despite blood lymphopenic (try not to bronch these pts; this data is from pre-testing time when we had several idiopathic ARDS cases) - fevers, often high, may be intermittent; persistently febrile, often for >10d. It isn't the dexmed, it's the SARS2. - low ProCalc; may be useful to check initially for later trending if later concern for VAP etc. - up AST/ALT, sometimes alk phos. Usually in 70-100 range. No fulminant hepatitis. Notably, in our small sample, higher transaminitis at admit (150-200) correlates with clinical deterioration and progression to ARDS. LFTs typically begin to bump in 2nd week of clinical course. - mild AKI (Cr <2). Uncertain if direct viral effect, but notably SARS2 RNA fragments have been identified in liver, kidneys, heart, and blood.
* characteristic CXR always bilateral patchy or reticular infiltrates, sometimes perihilar despite nl EF and volume down at presentation. At time of presentation may be subtle, but always present, even in our pts on chronic high dose steroids. NO effusions. CT is as expected, rarely mild mediastinal LAD, occ small effusions late in course which might be related to volume status/cap leak.
* Note - China is CT'ing everyone, even outpts, as a primarily diagnostic modality. However, in US/Europe, CT is rare, since findings are nonspecific, would not change management, and the ENTIRE scanner and room have to terminal-cleaned, which is just impossible in a busy hospital. Also, transport in PAPRs. Etc. 2 of our pts had CTs for idiopathic ARDS in the pre-test era; they looked like the CTs in the journal articles. Not more helpful than CXR. - when resp failure occurs, it is RAPID (likely 7-10d out from sx onset, but rapid progression from hospital admit). Common scenario for our pts is, admit 1L NC. Next 12hrs -> NPPV. Next 12-24hrs -> vent/proned/Flolan. - interestingly, despite some needing Flolan, the hypoxia is not as refractory as with H1N1. Quite different, and quite unique. Odd enough that you'd notice and say hmmm. - thus far many are dying of cardiac arrest rather than inability to ventilate/oxygenate. - given the inevitable rapid progression to ETT once resp decompensation begins, we and other hosps, including Wuhan, are doing early intubation. Facemask is fine, but if needing HFNC or NPPV just tube them. They definitely will need a tube anyway, & no point risking the aerosols. - no MOSF. There's the mild AST/ALT elevation, maybe a small Cr bump, but no florid failure. except cardiomyopathy. - multiple pts here have had nl EF on formal Echo or POCUS at time of admit (or in a couple of cases EF 40ish, chronically). Also nl Tpn from ED. Then they get the horrible resp failure, sans sepsis or shock. Then they turn the corner, off Flolan, supined, vent weaning, looking good, never any pressor requirement. Then over 12hrs, newly cold, clamped, multiple-pressor shock that looks cardiogenic, EF 10% or less, then either VT->VF-> dead or PEA-> asystole in less than a day. Needless to say this is awful for families who had started to have hope. - We have actually had more asystole than VT, other facilities report more VT/VF, but same time course, a few days or a week after admit, around the time they're turning the corner. This occurs on med-surg pts too; one today who is elderly and chronically ill but baseline EF preserved, newly hypoTN overnight, EF<10. Already no escalation, has since passed, So presumably there is a viral CM aspect, which presents later in the course of dz. - of note, no WMAs on Echo, RV preserved, Tpns don't bump. Could be unrelated, but I've never seen anything like it before, esp in a pt who had been HD stable without sepsis.

Treatment -
*Remdesivir might work, some hosps have seen improvement with it quite rapidly, marked improvement in 1-3 days. ARDS trajectory is impressive with it, pts improve much more rapidly than expected in usual ARDS.
*Recommended course is 10d, but due to scarcity all hosps have stopped it when pt clinically out of the woods - none have continued >5d. It might cause LFT bump, but interestingly seem to bump (200s-ish) for a day or 2 after starting then rapidly back to normal - suggests not a primary toxic hepatitis.
*unfortunately, the Gilead compassionate use and trial programs require AST/ALT <5x normal, which is pretty much almost no actual COVID pts. Also CrCl>30, which is fine. CDC is working with Gilead to get LFT reqs changed now that we know this is a mild viral hepatitis.
-currently the Gilead trial is wrapping up, NIH trial still enrolling, some new trial soon to begin can't remember where.

*steroids are up in the air. In China usual clinical practice for all ARDS is high dose methylpred. Thus, ALL of their pts have had high dose methylpred. Some question whether this practice increases mortality.
*it is likely that it increases seconday VAP/HAP. China has had a high rate of drug resistant GNR HAP/VAP and fungal pna in these pts, with resulting increases mortality. We have seen none, even in the earlier pts who were vented for >10d before being bronched (prior to test availability, again it is not a great idea to bronch these pts now).
- unclear whether VAP-prevention strategies are also different, but wouldn't think so?
- Hong Kong is currently running an uncontrolled trial of HC 100IV Q8.
- general consensus here (in US among docs who have cared for COVID pts) is that steroids will do more harm than good, unless needed for other indications.
- many of our pts have COPD on ICS. Current consensus at Evergreen, after some observation & some clinical judgment, is to stop ICS if able, based on known data with other viral pneumonias and increased susceptibility to HAP. Thus far pts are tolerating that, no major issues with ventilating them that can't be managed with vent changes. We also have quite a few on AE-COPD/asthma doses of methylpred, so will be interesting to see how they do.
 
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This is why I disagree about the "early intubation" I've seen advised. Of course no one is defining that specifically. I guess perhaps I should say we should be cautious about early intubation and the perhaps there should be a rush to "early CPAP"

I believe you posted this interview earlier: Covid-19 Podcast from Italy with Roberto Cosentini. St Emlyn's • St Emlyn's

But the folks in Bergamo were using CPAP very well.
 
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This is why I disagree about the "early intubation" I've seen advised. Of course no one is defining that specifically. I guess perhaps I should say we should be cautious about early intubation and the perhaps there should be a rush to "early CPAP"

I believe you posted this interview earlier: Covid-19 Podcast from Italy with Roberto Cosentini. St Emlyn's • St Emlyn's

But the folks in Bergamo were using CPAP very well.

Only caveat to Italy is they stated they are using mostly Helmets not masks for NIV
 
More a question of curiosity than anything else, but if someone was positive for Covid19 and the recovered, would the tests that are currently out show positivity? Are there any tests out there that would show prior infections?
 
More a question of curiosity than anything else, but if someone was positive for Covid19 and the recovered, would the tests that are currently out show positivity? Are there any tests out there that would show prior infections?

I guess it depends on what you mean? They're PCR based tests (at least the ones I've heard of). It's pretty well known that we can pick up positives with the regular respiratory multiplex when patients have certainly cleared the viruses it tests for. I don't see any reason why this wouldn't work in the same way, you'd probably be able to pick up viral fragments that can be amplified via PCR after someone has recovered for a short time afterwards. It's not like IgG/IgM for EBV or something though in that you can tell if a person has been infected ever. Once they get rid of all the viral fragments, you won't pick it up via PCR anymore.
 
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I guess it depends on what you mean? They're PCR based tests (at least the ones I've heard of). It's pretty well known that we can pick up positives with the regular respiratory multiplex when patients have certainly cleared the viruses it tests for. I don't see any reason why this wouldn't work in the same way, you'd probably be able to pick up viral fragments that can be amplified via PCR after someone has recovered for a short time afterwards. It's not like IgG/IgM for EBV or something though in that you can tell if a person has been infected ever. Once they get rid of all the viral fragments, you won't pick it up via PCR anymore.

I suppose I'm asking more about the igg/igm style testing, if that has been developed or not.
 
SCCM/SSC put out Guideline for COVID-19. Point 22 is the use of hydrocortisone for refractory shock, was under the impression that the data out of China was the steroids worsens the condition. Or am i to believe that at this point there is nothing to lose.
 
SCCM/SSC put out Guideline for COVID-19. Point 22 is the use of hydrocortisone for refractory shock, was under the impression that the data out of China was the steroids worsens the condition. Or am i to believe that at this point there is nothing to lose.

My impression was avoid using steroids as therapy for the respiratory component without and underlying contribution from asthma/COPD exacerbation. Their utility in refractory shock, while debated, remains acceptable.

As you mentioned, throwing everything you've got at that point.
 
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