Corona-Triggers in MD Employment Contracts

[Ferrismonk]

no offense, but this is a dumpster fire of misinformation.

natural immunity is not as good.


but... COVID is still an emergency, hence the EUA for vaccines. the full approval process takes a long time. its not because of safety, its because of the slow process. apparently, the average full approval process takes 5 to 10 years. it would be the most foolish policy to wait for standard FDA approval process.
"A good plan violently executed now is better than the perfect plan executed next week".

1. it is not novel any more. the vaccine has been developed and tested for almost a year.
2. there are multiple studies that show minimal side effects and percentage wise, someones risk of having a health problem from a vaccine is magnitudes less than their risk from dying from an active infection, or developing covid long haul symptoms from prior infection. just looking at numbers, I get the feeling that the risk of reinfection is greater than the risk of complications from vaccine.
3. our natural immunity is not as effective as vaccine, particularly for delta.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.15.440089v2.full.pdf

How Immunity Generated from COVID-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

A key issue as we move closer to ending the pandemic is determining more precisely how long people exposed to SARS-CoV-2, the COVID-19 virus, will make neutralizing antibodies against this dangerou…

directorsblog.nih.gov

in addition, early data (as even noted by Ken Gov Beshear) shows that reinfection with delta is driving new rates.

Beshear: Kentucky seeing high rate of COVID-19 reinfection because of delta variant

“If you have had COVID and that is the reason you’re not getting vaccinated, the data is starting to show you need to get vaccinated," Beshear warned during a briefing

www.wpsdlocal6.com

reinfection rate with delta variant may be significantly higher than previous variants, and the viral load is much higher.

Cases Of Delta Variant Of COVID-19 Warns A Risk Of Reinfection

Delta variant of COVID-19 may carry a 46% greater risk of reinfection than the Alpha variant.

www.medindia.net

as a serious and concerning counterpoint, most recent Israeli data suggests that Pfizer vaccine is only 40% effective against delta variant, although 91% effective in preventing death and hospitalization. in addition, there is some data to suggest that asymptomatic people are carrying huge viral loads, unlike before.

hence the new mask requirements being put back out by the CDC.

finally...

tell your grandmother just to hold her breath while a poorly masked asymptomatic but infected nurses aide, who refuses to get vaccinated because she got raights, checks her vitals or changes her sheets.

I have no problem with vaccines or doubt the science, I just have a problem with our government and employers taking away people's livelihood simply because they don't undergo a medical procedure they may not want.

What happened to HIPAA, patient privacy, and a person's right to choose?

as a serious and concerning counterpoint, most recent Israeli data suggests that Pfizer vaccine is only 40% effective against delta variant, although 91% effective in preventing death and hospitalization. in addition, there is some data to suggest that asymptomatic people are carrying huge viral loads, unlike before.

hence the new mask requirements being put back out by the CDC.

finally...

tell your grandmother just to hold her breath while a poorly masked asymptomatic but infected nurses aide, who refuses to get vaccinated because she got raights, checks her vitals or changes her sheets.

Exactly. Vaccinated people still can carry and transmit the virus.

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[Agast]

I have no problem with vaccines or doubt the science, I just have a problem with our government and employers taking away people's livelihood simply because they don't undergo a medical procedure they may not want.

What happened to HIPAA, patient privacy, and a person's right to choose?


Exactly. Vaccinated people still can carry and transmit the virus.

Wow, this place was the last place I thought I would see the misuse of HIPAA guidelines. Didn’t you have to do those mandatory learning modules on HIPAA like a billion times?

 

[Ferrismonk]

Wow, this place was the last place I thought I would see the misuse of HIPAA guidelines. Didn’t you have to do those mandatory learning modules on HIPAA like a billion times?

Fair enough. I know HIPAA doesn't technically apply to employers. However, they are still banned from requiring you to share your medical information. If you aren't vaccinated, the employer can't ask why for example. I would argue (although I would lose) that knowing which vaccines I've received is health information. My other argument still stands.

 

[clubdeac]

I read a lot of the COVID news and data but I haven’t seen anything saying natural immunity is better than the vaccine, or that vaccinating those with pre-existing Immunity is not helpful, particularly with the delta variant. Can you find your sources on that? I’d be curious to read it.

@Ducttape you quote Israeli data but do you know what it says?

Two well designed studies. First looked last 50,000 individuals at the Cleveland Clinic. The second is data of 300,000 Israeli's.

Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals

Background The purpose of this study was to evaluate the necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in persons previously infected with SARS-CoV-2. Methods Employees of the Cleveland Clinic Health System working in Ohio on Dec 16, 2020, the day COVID-19 vaccination was started, were included. Any...

www.medrxiv.org

Scientists from the Cleveland Clinic, USA, have recently evaluated the effectiveness of coronavirus disease 2019 COVID-19) vaccination among individuals with or without a history of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection.

The study findings reveal that individuals with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection do not get additional benefits from vaccination, indicating that COVID-19 vaccines should be prioritized to individuals without prior infection.

Protection of previous SARS-CoV-2 infection is similar to that of BNT162b2 vaccine protection: A three-month nationwide experience from Israel

Worldwide shortage of vaccination against SARS-CoV-2 infection while the pandemic is still uncontrolled leads many states to the dilemma whether or not to vaccinate previously infected persons. Understanding the level of protection of previous infection compared to that of vaccination is...

www.medrxiv.org

An Israeli study published in April shows people who got the natural infection have similar — and, by some metrics, slightly higher — immune protection than those who got the vaccine. Other studies suggest immunity via natural infection is long-lasting, and reinfections are uncommon.

Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime

People who recover from mild COVID-19 have bone-marrow cells that can churn out antibodies for decades, although viral variants could dampen some of the protection they offer.

www.nature.com

Many people who have been infected with SARS-CoV-2 will probably make antibodies against the virus for most of their lives. So suggest researchers who have identified long-lived antibody-producing cells in the bone marrow of people who have recovered from COVID-191.

 

[callmeanesthesia]

@Ducttape you quote Israeli data but do you know what it says?

Two well designed studies. First looked last 50,000 individuals at the Cleveland Clinic. The second is data of 300,000 Israeli's.

Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals

Background The purpose of this study was to evaluate the necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in persons previously infected with SARS-CoV-2. Methods Employees of the Cleveland Clinic Health System working in Ohio on Dec 16, 2020, the day COVID-19 vaccination was started, were included. Any...

www.medrxiv.org

Scientists from the Cleveland Clinic, USA, have recently evaluated the effectiveness of coronavirus disease 2019 COVID-19) vaccination among individuals with or without a history of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection.

The study findings reveal that individuals with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection do not get additional benefits from vaccination, indicating that COVID-19 vaccines should be prioritized to individuals without prior infection.

Protection of previous SARS-CoV-2 infection is similar to that of BNT162b2 vaccine protection: A three-month nationwide experience from Israel

Worldwide shortage of vaccination against SARS-CoV-2 infection while the pandemic is still uncontrolled leads many states to the dilemma whether or not to vaccinate previously infected persons. Understanding the level of protection of previous infection compared to that of vaccination is...

www.medrxiv.org

An Israeli study published in April shows people who got the natural infection have similar — and, by some metrics, slightly higher — immune protection than those who got the vaccine. Other studies suggest immunity via natural infection is long-lasting, and reinfections are uncommon.

Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime

People who recover from mild COVID-19 have bone-marrow cells that can churn out antibodies for decades, although viral variants could dampen some of the protection they offer.

www.nature.com

Many people who have been infected with SARS-CoV-2 will probably make antibodies against the virus for most of their lives. So suggest researchers who have identified long-lived antibody-producing cells in the bone marrow of people who have recovered from COVID-191.

Thanks for finding those. I’m concerned though that data for both of those was most likely collected before the delta variant became prevalent in their respective areas. They also found exceedingly low infection among vaccinated individuals. That unfortunately is no longer holding up to delta. I don’t think we yet have data on reinfection rates after natural immunity, but prior experience with influenza, and seasonal non-pandemic coronaviruses suggest reinfection will occur. I don’t have it handy but I heard about some data, not yet published, showing a booster dramatically increases neutralizing activity against delta variant.

 

[Ducttape]

I have no problem with vaccines or doubt the science, I just have a problem with our government and employers taking away people's livelihood simply because they don't undergo a medical procedure they may not want.

What happened to HIPAA, patient privacy, and a person's right to choose?


Exactly. Vaccinated people still can carry and transmit the virus.

what happened to our patients right to not be needlessly exposed to a dangerous virus?

HIPAA does not apply to work. Employers are legally allowed to force employees to get vaccinated.

HIPAA applies to medical workers and patients.

Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA) | CDC

HIPAA is a federal law that requires the creation of national standards to protect sensitive patient health information from being disclosed.

www.cdc.gov

(no, a "business associate" in this sense is not an employer but rather a business associate of a medical entity such as insurance, or billing company for example)



clubdeac - this is old old data. at the very least, delta virus acts much differently.

Also, Cleveland Clinic put out a proviso stating that their patient population does not likely reflect the general population - these are healthy employees.

and the other study showed what 4.9% reinfection rate.


the recommendation from almost all public policy physicians is that previously infected patients should get vaccinated.

just look at the ex-President, who was vaccinated before leaving office.

as an example:

Do I need a vaccine if I’ve already had COVID-19? - UChicago Medicine

Still trying to decide if and when to get your COVID-19 vaccine? Infectious diseases expert Jennifer Pisano, MD, is here to answer your lingering questions.

www.uchicagomedicine.org

delta variant is much more infectious and asymptomatic people may be carrying as high a viral load as symptomatic. case rates are rising everywhere in the US - and the hospitalizations are almost all in the unvaccinated.

 

[Baron Samedi]

I have no problem with vaccines or doubt the science, I just have a problem with our government and employers taking away people's livelihood simply because they don't undergo a medical procedure they may not want.

Surely conservatives support "at-will" employment and believe in employers' right to hire or fire anyone at anytime for any non-protected reason.

 

[Agast]

At least in Texas, the state requires everyone to get the meningitis vaccine if they want to go to college. Arguably that has the biggest impact on your "livelihood."

 

[clubdeac]

what happened to our patients right to not be needlessly exposed to a dangerous virus?

HIPAA does not apply to work. Employers are legally allowed to force employees to get vaccinated.

HIPAA applies to medical workers and patients.

Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA) | CDC

HIPAA is a federal law that requires the creation of national standards to protect sensitive patient health information from being disclosed.

www.cdc.gov

(no, a "business associate" in this sense is not an employer but rather a business associate of a medical entity such as insurance, or billing company for example)



clubdeac - this is old old data. at the very least, delta virus acts much differently.

Also, Cleveland Clinic put out a proviso stating that their patient population does not likely reflect the general population - these are healthy employees.

and the other study showed what 4.9% reinfection rate.


the recommendation from almost all public policy physicians is that previously infected patients should get vaccinated.

just look at the ex-President, who was vaccinated before leaving office.

as an example:

Do I need a vaccine if I’ve already had COVID-19? - UChicago Medicine

Still trying to decide if and when to get your COVID-19 vaccine? Infectious diseases expert Jennifer Pisano, MD, is here to answer your lingering questions.

www.uchicagomedicine.org

delta variant is much more infectious and asymptomatic people may be carrying as high a viral load as symptomatic. case rates are rising everywhere in the US - and the hospitalizations are almost all in the unvaccinated.

Now you’re the one with really old data @Ducttape . That ID article was from May.

new data is showing that vaccines are not effective against the delta variant. Why would a young healthy 40 y/o with natural immunity get a vaccine that is only 26% effective??

Outbreak of SARS-CoV-2 Infections, including COVID-19 ...

This report describes COVID-19 outbreaks associated with ...

www.cdc.gov

 

[callmeanesthesia]

Now you’re the one with really old data @Ducttape . That ID article was from May.

new data is showing that vaccines are not effective against the delta variant. Why would a young healthy 40 y/o with natural immunity get a vaccine that is only 26% effective??

Outbreak of SARS-CoV-2 Infections, including COVID-19 ...

This report describes COVID-19 outbreaks associated with ...

www.cdc.gov

Your selective use of data is looking a lot like motivated reasoning to justify your pre-determined decision. You cite reduced efficacy against infection, but why are you ignoring the results from the same sources showing high efficacy against hospitalization and death?

 

[Agast]

Now you’re the one with really old data @Ducttape . That ID article was from May.

new data is showing that vaccines are not effective against the delta variant. Why would a young healthy 40 y/o with natural immunity get a vaccine that is only 26% effective??

Outbreak of SARS-CoV-2 Infections, including COVID-19 ...

This report describes COVID-19 outbreaks associated with ...

www.cdc.gov

Why assume you have natural immunity? There’s evidence of reinfection that is worse with the Delta variant

PHE upgrade Delta variant’s risk level due to reinfection risk

Risk of reinfection with Delta may be 46% greater than with the Alpha variant, national testing data finds

www.theguardian.com

My patient today told me everyone in her family caught COVID twice (her husband, her two sons) and that was with the original strain. Now is not the time to fuc|< around and find out

 

[Agast]

Well, the first hospital in my area announced we are halting elective cases that require a hospital bed for any length of stay. We went from a steady downtrend to rapid spike and given the 47% vax (not even fully vaccinated) rate in my area I’m sure the other hospitals will follow. It’s disheartening. I’m starting to ask all my patients at the end of their appointment if they’re vaccinated and have a gentle conversation if they’re not.

Meanwhile Governor Abbott’s brilliant response was to ban local ordinances from enacting business capacity restrictions even if the hospitals fill up. And he banned schools from enacting mask mandates. Peds COVID is on the uptick on top of RSV so we have that going for us which is nice.

So I guess anyone who wants to have a moan about mandatory vaccines, can sit back and enjoy the show that’s starting in the South. *Banjo music starts*

 

[lobelsteve]

View attachment 341309
Well, the first hospital in my area announced we are halting elective cases that require a hospital bed for any length of stay. We went from a steady downtrend to rapid spike and given the 47% vax (not even fully vaccinated) rate in my area I’m sure the other hospitals will follow. It’s disheartening. I’m starting to ask all my patients at the end of their appointment if they’re vaccinated and have a gentle conversation if they’re not.

Meanwhile Governor Abbott’s brilliant response was to ban local ordinances from enacting business capacity restrictions even if the hospitals fill up. And he banned schools from enacting mask mandates. Peds COVID is on the uptick on top of RSV so we have that going for us which is nice.

So I guess anyone who wants to have a moan about mandatory vaccines, can sit back and enjoy the show that’s starting in the South. *Banjo music starts*

Cases? Hospitalization and death would be our useful markers. Breakthrough hospitalizations and deaths are the markers that matter. If unvaccinated at risk people get sick and die then that’s on them. From a far left viewpoint we should not allow them access to vents. Glad I’m not far left. Or right.

 

[deleted875186]

no offense, but this is a dumpster fire of misinformation.

natural immunity is not as good.


but... COVID is still an emergency, hence the EUA for vaccines. the full approval process takes a long time. its not because of safety, its because of the slow process. apparently, the average full approval process takes 5 to 10 years. it would be the most foolish policy to wait for standard FDA approval process.
"A good plan violently executed now is better than the perfect plan executed next week".

1. it is not novel any more. the vaccine has been developed and tested for almost a year.
2. there are multiple studies that show minimal side effects and percentage wise, someones risk of having a health problem from a vaccine is magnitudes less than their risk from dying from an active infection, or developing covid long haul symptoms from prior infection. just looking at numbers, I get the feeling that the risk of reinfection is greater than the risk of complications from vaccine.
3. our natural immunity is not as effective as vaccine, particularly for delta.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.15.440089v2.full.pdf

How Immunity Generated from COVID-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

A key issue as we move closer to ending the pandemic is determining more precisely how long people exposed to SARS-CoV-2, the COVID-19 virus, will make neutralizing antibodies against this dangerou…

directorsblog.nih.gov

in addition, early data (as even noted by Ken Gov Beshear) shows that reinfection with delta is driving new rates.

Beshear: Kentucky seeing high rate of COVID-19 reinfection because of delta variant

“If you have had COVID and that is the reason you’re not getting vaccinated, the data is starting to show you need to get vaccinated," Beshear warned during a briefing

www.wpsdlocal6.com

reinfection rate with delta variant may be significantly higher than previous variants, and the viral load is much higher.

Cases Of Delta Variant Of COVID-19 Warns A Risk Of Reinfection

Delta variant of COVID-19 may carry a 46% greater risk of reinfection than the Alpha variant.

www.medindia.net

as a serious and concerning counterpoint, most recent Israeli data suggests that Pfizer vaccine is only 40% effective against delta variant, although 91% effective in preventing death and hospitalization. in addition, there is some data to suggest that asymptomatic people are carrying huge viral loads, unlike before.

hence the new mask requirements being put back out by the CDC.

finally...

tell your grandmother just to hold her breath while a poorly masked asymptomatic but infected nurses aide, who refuses to get vaccinated because she got raights, checks her vitals or changes her sheets.

Are

was watching the nightly news today and they interviewed nurses about why they aren’t getting the vax. NBC presented them with facts , saying “these r the facts…vaccines help….they showed stats for vax vs nonvax.

The nurses answer - “are they facts? Are they really?”

U can’t argue with stupid.

People ignore facts because they do not support their position on the vaccine.

people are also downplaying the delta variant so that they can justify not getting vaccinated.

if I previously had Covid, I would get at least one Pfizer shot to at least boost my immunity.

millions upon millions of people have gotten the vaccine, we are already a year out from the initial trials. The “long term” data argument gets weaker and weaker over time, if your waiting for 10 years of safety data, your more likely to die of some other cause in the meantime …. Just defies logic.

 

[lobelsteve]

People ignore facts because they do not support their position on the vaccine.

people are also downplaying the delta variant so that they can justify not getting vaccinated.

if I previously had Covid, I would get at least one Pfizer shot to at least boost my immunity.

millions upon millions of people have gotten the vaccine, we are already a year out from the initial trials. The “long term” data argument gets weaker and weaker over time, if your waiting for 10 years of safety data, your more likely to die of some other cause in the meantime …. Just defies logic.

What would the timing be after Covid infection to get booster shot?
Do we know AB titer levels to confer immunity or at least to prevent severe infection?
If so, would want to check AB levels at least monthly after infection to know if still protected.
Sign me up for this experiment.

 

[Ferrismonk]

In my opinion, if the vaccine is available to all for free, then there is no need for a vaccine or even a mask requirement. If you're concerned about COVID, get the vaccine, social distance, sanitize everything around you, and wear a mask. If you aren't, you live (or even die) with the consequences of your choices. People can make their own decisions.

 

[Ferrismonk]

What would the timing be after Covid infection to get booster shot?
Do we know AB titer levels to confer immunity or at least to prevent severe infection?
If so, would want to check AB levels at least monthly after infection to know if still protected.
Sign me up for this experiment.

Not that it's a proper study, but I have a coworker who had the vaccines then developed COVID. He AB titers were through the roof (>40K or something). Another coworker got the vaccine but never got COVID. His titers were around 200-400 if I recall correctly.

 

[Agast]

In my opinion, if the vaccine is available to all for free, then there is no need for a vaccine or even a mask requirement. If you're concerned about COVID, get the vaccine, social distance, sanitize everything around you, and wear a mask. If you aren't, you live (or even die) with the consequences of your choices. People can make their own decisions.

But the vaccine is NOT available to all. Don’t forget about the children. And some teenagers are not getting vaccinated because their parents won’t let them.

 

[lobelsteve]

But the vaccine is NOT available to all. Don’t forget about the children. And some teenagers are not getting vaccinated because their parents won’t let them.

Do children need the vaccine? How many kids infected/hospitalized/dead?
There was a 5 year old in GA who reportedly dies from Covid, but had comorbid strep/staph infections. I'd like to see what the clinical picture was like and how much Covid played a role compared to the other infections.

 

[Baron Samedi]

In my opinion, if the vaccine is available to all for free, then there is no need for a vaccine or even a mask requirement. If you're concerned about COVID, get the vaccine, social distance, sanitize everything around you, and wear a mask. If you aren't, you live (or even die) with the consequences of your choices. People can make their own decisions.

By this logic, driving drunk should be fine, too, since you can live(or even die) with the consequences of your own choices. If you're concerned about drunk drivers, don't get in a car.

 

[Agast]

Do children need the vaccine? How many kids infected/hospitalized/dead?
There was a 5 year old in GA who reportedly dies from Covid, but had comorbid strep/staph infections. I'd like to see what the clinical picture was like and how much Covid played a role compared to the other infections.

Join a mixed doctors group. The pediatricians are discussing their COVID cases. The death rate is low, but I should hope we want more than that for our kids. The concern is Long Covid. Imagine a whole generation of kids who end up looking like fibromyalgia patients.

Children with long covid

Almost half of children who contract covid-19 may have lasting symptoms, which should factor into decisions on reopening schools, reports Helen Thomson

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[lobelsteve]

Join a mixed doctors group. The pediatricians are discussing their COVID cases. The death rate is low, but I should hope we want more than that for our kids. The concern is Long Covid. Imagine a whole generation of kids who end up looking like fibromyalgia patients.

Children with long covid

Almost half of children who contract covid-19 may have lasting symptoms, which should factor into decisions on reopening schools, reports Helen Thomson

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Imagine a generation of kids who never went back to school and the collapse of our society.
Or the cardiac inflammatory side effects of otherwise normal kids not at risk....post vax

 

[Agast]

Imagine a generation of kids who never went back to school and the collapse of our society.
Or the cardiac inflammatory side effects of otherwise normal kids not at risk....post vax

They can go back to school. American Academy of Pediatricians recommends ages 2 and up wear masks. Unfortunately we can’t enforce that in Texas. Or in Florida. The AAP also supports vaccinating children as the reported cases of myocarditis post vaccine are low. I would defer to pediatricians on this topic.

 

[lobelsteve]

They can go back to school. American Academy of Pediatricians recommends ages 2 and up wear masks. Unfortunately we can’t enforce that in Texas. Or in Florida. The AAP also supports vaccinating children as the reported cases of myocarditis post vaccine are low. I would defer to pediatricians on this topic.

Myocarditis cases low. Sickness in kids low. How to balance risk/benefit between these two things? We do not have enough data. 500 cases cardiac inflammation. 60 kids total have been hospitalized (from Covid without being with comorbid disease or obesity).

 

[Agast]

Myocarditis cases low. Sickness in kids low. How to balance risk/benefit between these two things? We do not have enough data. 500 cases cardiac inflammation. 60 kids total have been hospitalized (from Covid without being with comorbid disease or obesity).

Where are you getting 60 cases total hospitalization?

 

[lobelsteve]

Where are you getting 60 cases total hospitalization?

Report of 300 total hospitalizations and 70% with comorbid conditions including asthma, obesity, or more severe medical conditions.

 

[lobelsteve]

Where are you getting 60 cases total hospitalization?

Trying to find my source material and ran across this:

Children, COVID-19, and the vaccines

As scientists test vaccines in children, evidence indicates how COVID-19 harms kids, how immunizations of others can protect them, and the impact of a vaccine.

www.aamc.org

Much better info here. Looks like way more than 300 total hospitalizations. Discusses cardiac risk and mrna vax in males 12-39.

 

[lobelsteve]

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/pdfs/mm7023e1-H.pdf

Here is cdc reporting on a 1/4 year. 204 admissions and 70.6% with comorbid condition.
I think I was reading a news aggregator source with bad data. But still compelling info to question risks and benefits or vaccine side effects vs getting infected.

 

[Agast]

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/pdfs/mm7023e1-H.pdf

Here is cdc reporting on a 1/4 year. 204 admissions and 70.6% with comorbid condition.
I think I was reading a news aggregator source with bad data. But still compelling info to question risks and benefits or vaccine side effects vs getting infected.

Ages 10-17 - State of Childhood Obesity

stateofchildhoodobesity.org

I would take a quick peek at Childhood Obesity rates. It looks like the states with the lowest COVID vaccination rates are also the states with the chubbiest kiddos, and that’s just one type of co-morbidity. We don’t want to accumulate data on how badly children do if they get COVID, that really is not in our best interest.

 

[callmeanesthesia]

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/pdfs/mm7023e1-H.pdf

Here is cdc reporting on a 1/4 year. 204 admissions and 70.6% with comorbid condition.
I think I was reading a news aggregator source with bad data. But still compelling info to question risks and benefits or vaccine side effects vs getting infected.

AAP data shows a case fatality rate of around .01%. That is 1/10,000. The myocarditis data shows around a 1/1,000,000 risk, and not all fatal. I say they should just issue the EUA, let those of us who see the benefit for our kids can get it and they can continue to collect post-market and trial data.

 

[lobelsteve]

Ages 10-17 - State of Childhood Obesity

stateofchildhoodobesity.org

I would take a quick peek at Childhood Obesity rates. It looks like the states with the lowest COVID vaccination rates are also the states with the chubbiest kiddos, and that’s just one type of co-morbidity. We don’t want to accumulate data on how badly children do if they get COVID, that really is not in our best interest.

Wait, you don’t want data to figure out how to best protect our kids? Huh?

 

[callmeanesthesia]

Wait, you don’t want data to figure out how to best protect our kids? Huh?

She’s saying let’s not accumulate pediatric death and disability by removing all precautions, delaying vaccine approval, and just letting them get COVID.

 

[Ferrismonk]

I thought this was a spot-on article:

Opinions | Vaccine mandates will backfire. People will resist even more.

 

[lobelsteve]

She’s saying let’s not accumulate pediatric death and disability by removing all precautions, delaying vaccine approval, and just letting them get COVID.

Some will get it anyway. How many kid hospitalizations and deaths?

How much risk is there for 2-20 year olds?

 

[clubdeac]

Your selective use of data is looking a lot like motivated reasoning to justify your pre-determined decision. You cite reduced efficacy against infection, but why are you ignoring the results from the same sources showing high efficacy against hospitalization and death?

Listen, I've presented data showing that having natural immunity is as good as if not better than acquired immunity and that vaccinating those with prior infection confers no additional protection. That's what I'm talking about. If you have data stating otherwise please share.

 

[clubdeac]

Why assume you have natural immunity? There’s evidence of reinfection that is worse with the Delta variant

PHE upgrade Delta variant’s risk level due to reinfection risk

Risk of reinfection with Delta may be 46% greater than with the Alpha variant, national testing data finds

www.theguardian.com

My patient today told me everyone in her family caught COVID twice (her husband, her two sons) and that was with the original strain. Now is not the time to fuc|< around and find out

Huh? B/c I had my antibodies tested. Regardless, T cell immunity is what's more important here

And when do anecdotes matter on this board? I just got off the phone with my dad and he said they currently have 4 covid patients in their ICU and 3 of them were fully vaccinated. Should you get another booster?

 

[clubdeac]

What would the timing be after Covid infection to get booster shot?
Do we know AB titer levels to confer immunity or at least to prevent severe infection?
If so, would want to check AB levels at least monthly after infection to know if still protected.
Sign me up for this experiment.

Steve T cell immunity is what matters....

 

[clubdeac]

Join a mixed doctors group. The pediatricians are discussing their COVID cases. The death rate is low, but I should hope we want more than that for our kids. The concern is Long Covid. Imagine a whole generation of kids who end up looking like fibromyalgia patients.

Children with long covid

Almost half of children who contract covid-19 may have lasting symptoms, which should factor into decisions on reopening schools, reports Helen Thomson

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"The concern is Long Covid.....kids who end up looking like fibromyalgia patients" \

You do realize everyone on the opposite side of this argument are saying the exact same thing about the vaccine. Other side of the same coin

 

[clubdeac]

And finally, there have been many attempts to make coronavirus vaccines since 2000. All ended in failure b/c the animals in the trials became very sick and many died. This is easily searchable on pubmed.

There is a phenomenon known as Antibody Dependent Enhancement (ADE) also known as Vaccine Enhanced Disease (VED) that occurred in many of the previous coronavirus vaccine trials which could explain the current severe "breakthrough infections". This is a very real and concerning phenomenon and to my knowledge there is no evidence they figured out how to circumvent this problem with the current and available vaccines under the EUA.

Kam et al., 2007
Yip et al., 2014
Jaume et al., 2011
Wang et al., 2014
Yang et al., 2004
Huang et al., 2006
Taylor et al., 2015
de Wit et al., 2016
Tseng et al. 2012
Yasuri et al., 2008

 

[callmeanesthesia]

Listen, I've presented data showing that having natural immunity is as good as if not better than acquired immunity and that vaccinating those with prior infection confers no additional protection. That's what I'm talking about. If you have data stating otherwise please share.

That is old data, rendered irrelevant by the emergence of the delta variant. Unfortunately we have no good data either way. Vaccine still providing good protection against hospitalization and death. Whether vaccinating would provide additional protection is once again an open question. Anecdotally I haven’t been hearing of many people getting COVID for the second time, so I hope natural immunity is still providing good protection.
Worse disease because of vaccine is clearly not happening - plenty of evidence to show reduced severity of disease with the vaccines.

 

[callmeanesthesia]

Despite the concerning data on vaccine efficacy out of Israel, very few cases, hospitalizations, and deaths among the vaccinated in the US.

COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Cases: Data from the States | KFF

We reviewed the websites and other official state sources for all 50 states and D.C. to see which are providing data on COVID-19 breakthrough cases, hospitalizations and deaths, how regularly, and what those data may tell us.

www.kff.org

 

[lobelsteve]

Despite the concerning data on vaccine efficacy out of Israel, very few cases, hospitalizations, and deaths among the vaccinated in the US.

COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Cases: Data from the States | KFF

We reviewed the websites and other official state sources for all 50 states and D.C. to see which are providing data on COVID-19 breakthrough cases, hospitalizations and deaths, how regularly, and what those data may tell us.

www.kff.org

From your article posted and of utmost importance:

• The data reported from these states indicate that breakthrough cases, hospitalizations, and deaths are extremely rare events among those who are fully vaccinated against COVID-19 (see Figure 1). The rate of breakthrough cases reported among those fully vaccinated is well below 1% in all reporting states, ranging from 0.01% in Connecticut to 0.90% in Oklahoma.
  • The hospitalization rate among fully vaccinated people with COVID-19 ranged from effectively zero (0.00%) in California, Delaware, D.C., Indiana, New Jersey, New Mexico, Vermont, and Virginia to 0.06% in Arkansas. (Note: Hospitalization may or may not have been due to COVID-19.)
  • The rates of death among fully vaccinated people with COVID-19 were even lower, effectively zero (0.00%) in all but two reporting states, Arkansas and Michigan where they were 0.01%. (Note: Deaths may or may not have been due to COVID-19.)

 

[Nodolor]

I thought this was a spot-on article:

Opinions | Vaccine mandates will backfire. People will resist even more.

65% of Americans were against seat belt laws

 

[Nodolor]

The CDC reported 6,587 Covid-19 breakthrough cases as of July 26, including 6,239 hospitalizations and 1,263 deaths. At that time, more than 163 million people in the United States were fully vaccinated against Covid-19.
Divide those severe breakthrough cases by the total fully vaccinated population for the result: less than 0.004% of fully vaccinated people had a breakthrough case that led to hospitalization and less than 0.001% of fully vaccinated people died from a breakthrough Covid-19 case.

 

[cowboydoc]

65% of Americans were against seat belt laws

Pre-social media. It's a different world now.

 

[Nodolor]

Pre-social media. It's a different world now.

ya might have been higher percentage after this was on Facebook

"Among the arguments put forth against seatbelts was that they could cause internal injuries; that they prevented easy escapes from cars submerged in water; and that devices frequently failed."

 

[SSdoc33]

They can go back to school. American Academy of Pediatricians recommends ages 2 and up wear masks. Unfortunately we can’t enforce that in Texas. Or in Florida. The AAP also supports vaccinating children as the reported cases of myocarditis post vaccine are low. I would defer to pediatricians on this topic.

time to move to a blue state?

 

[Ducttape]

Now you’re the one with really old data @Ducttape . That ID article was from May.

new data is showing that vaccines are not effective against the delta variant. Why would a young healthy 40 y/o with natural immunity get a vaccine that is only 26% effective??

Outbreak of SARS-CoV-2 Infections, including COVID-19 ...

This report describes COVID-19 outbreaks associated with ...

www.cdc.gov

that's not true.

new Israeli data shows that Pfizer vaccine effective against hospitalization and death.

Cases? Hospitalization and death would be our useful markers. Breakthrough hospitalizations and deaths are the markers that matter. If unvaccinated at risk people get sick and die then that’s on them. From a far left viewpoint we should not allow them access to vents. Glad I’m not far left. Or right.

problem is, that hospitalizations and deaths do affect us. both from the standpoint of reduced medical supplies, access to healthcare, and the economic costs. your insurance rates and your taxes go to pay for healthcare of these unvaccinated people.

reinfection rates may be low - some studies before delta suggest 1%.

However - people are getting reinfected. case in point that is obvious - Lamar Jackson.

And finally, there have been many attempts to make coronavirus vaccines since 2000. All ended in failure b/c the animals in the trials became very sick and many died. This is easily searchable on pubmed.

There is a phenomenon known as Antibody Dependent Enhancement (ADE) also known as Vaccine Enhanced Disease (VED) that occurred in many of the previous coronavirus vaccine trials which could explain the current severe "breakthrough infections". This is a very real and concerning phenomenon and to my knowledge there is no evidence they figured out how to circumvent this problem with the current and available vaccines under the EUA.

Kam et al., 2007
Yip et al., 2014
Jaume et al., 2011
Wang et al., 2014
Yang et al., 2004
Huang et al., 2006
Taylor et al., 2015
de Wit et al., 2016
Tseng et al. 2012
Yasuri et al., 2008

the current data suggests that over 97% of hospitalized and dead patients from delta are unvaccinated patients. VAED is really not occurring on any level, by inference, because there are so few cases of vaccinated people coming down with severe delta infections requiring hospitalizations or even death.

of note, VAED has not been seen after human use of other coronavirus vaccines for SARS and MERS. yes, mRNA vaccines are new. but i do not believe that the listed trials are applicable.

 

[Agast]

time to move to a blue state?

I'll stay if Matthew McConaughey can beat Abbott. At least he's pro-vaccine.

 

[SSdoc33]

I'll stay if Matthew McConaughey can beat Abbott. At least he's pro-vaccine.

you might just want to grin and bare it for a few more years. only a matter of time till texas goes blue