Corona-Triggers in MD Employment Contracts

[Jcm800]

Poli5ics has nothing to do with this.

You are endangering your patients because you think what you do is more important than it is. God complex. Usually, you are right when it comes to the best way to treat pain patients, and i truly respect your medical opinion. In this case, you are wrong and fail to see the big picture.


I am not going to do it, but it would be very easy for someone to make some calls to the relevant authorities and regulatory agencies here....

Doctors with full schedules are the equivalent of spring breakers on beaches. They just don’t care. I mean they care about SOMETHING...just not people.

"I don't know how to explain to you that you should care about other people.”

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[deleted993114]

What do you think of this counter-offer to Admin:

"In the event this clause is triggered, hospital agrees to provide at its expense an independent audit to assure that the following conditions are met:

1. Administrative staff salaries have been cut, on a percentage basis, by at least twice the amount as any physician.

2. The hospital (or its parent corporation) experienced a loss on operations, or, if budgeted for a loss, the actual loss exceeded the year's previously approved budget.

3. The hospital is not the beneficiary of any endowment or other external funding which was used to compensate it for any losses sustained due to the event.

4. The hospital will not require any additional shifts or will provide bonuses of XXX for each additional shift physician agrees to work IN ADDITION TO any RVU payments.

5. If the hospital invokes this clause, the non-compete clause and any 'gag' clauses will become immediately null and void.

6. The hospital cannot 'terminate for cause' if a physician refuses to any changes to terms based on this clause."

I am in an employed position (left my practice a couple of years ago). I get paid the same amount, regardless of how many patients I see; it is in my contract. Out hospital had about $1 billion in reserves, so I think they will be okay.

If someone asked me to take a pay cut on the next contract, I would just leave. That would be the extent of the "negotiations".

Hospitals are going to get money from the feds over corona losses, thus the full losses will not be realized.

 

[drusso]

I am in an employed position (left my practice a couple of years ago). I get paid the same amount, regardless of how many patients I see; it is in my contract. Out hospital had about $1 billion in reserves, so I think they will be okay.

If someone asked me to take a pay cut on the next contract, I would just leave. That would be the extent of the "negotiations".

Hospitals are going to get money from the feds over corona losses, thus the full losses will not be realized.

$1 billion in reserves is an embarrassment.

 

[SSdoc33]

$1 billion in reserves is an embarrassment.

how much does goldman sachs have in reserve? harvard? the catholic church?

 

[drusso]

how much does goldman sachs have in reserve? harvard? the catholic church?
View attachment 301401

Harvard and GS are private entities. They can accumulate all the wealth they desire.

The Catholic Church and "non-profit" hospitals are regulated by the IRS as charities. No charity should be accumulating reserves like that choking their mission to provide care and comfort to the sick and lame.

It's an embarrassment. I couldn't live with myself sucking from the teet of "Big Hospital."

This is not a new issue. Read this from 1990:

Tax Exemptions of Nonprofit Hospitals Scrutinized (Published 1990)

www.nytimes.com

"Nonprofit hospitals are big business. The 3,200 private nonprofit hospitals constitute less than 1 percent of all charitable organizations in the United States, but they account for 43 percent of all the revenues of such organizations ($115 billion of $268 billion) and 32 percent of the total assets ($135 billion of $423 billion), Mr. McGovern said."

 

[SSdoc33]

Harvard and GS are private entities. They can accumulate all the wealth they desire.

The Catholic Church and "non-profit" hospitals are regulated by the IRS as charities. No charity should be accumulating reserves like that choking their mission to provide care and comfort to the sick and lame.

It's an embarrassment. I couldn't live with myself sucking from the teet of "Big Hospital."

This is not a new issue. Read this from 1990:

Tax Exemptions of Nonprofit Hospitals Scrutinized (Published 1990)

www.nytimes.com

"Nonprofit hospitals are big business. The 3,200 private nonprofit hospitals constitute less than 1 percent of all charitable organizations in the United States, but they account for 43 percent of all the revenues of such organizations ($115 billion of $268 billion) and 32 percent of the total assets ($135 billion of $423 billion), Mr. McGovern said."

so, you are saying that religious organizations shouldnt be tax-exempt?

"I couldn't live with myself sucking from the teet of "Big Hospital." -- yes, we know. funny how that works. you wont work for a hospital, but will accept cash for stem cell treatments. yes, quite the martyr you are......

 

[drusso]

so, you are saying that religious organizations shouldnt be tax-exempt?

"I couldn't live with myself sucking from the teet of "Big Hospital." -- yes, we know. funny how that works. you wont work for a hospital, but will accept cash for stem cell treatments. yes, quite the martyr you are......

I also accept insurance payment for regen procedures. How does that make a difference?

I'm fine tax-exempting religious organizations so as long as they are doing actual charity work and are accountable to a non-biased Board of Directors.

 

[SSdoc33]

I also accept insurance payment for regen procedures. How does that make a difference?

I'm fine tax-exempting religious organizations so as long as they are doing actual charity work and are accountable to a non-biased Board of Directors.

insurance pays for stem cells, eh? thats news to me. im not talking about PRP, which -- although overutilized -- is at least somewhat legitimate.

claiming to be too good/pure/ethical/independent for a hospital, then blasting your patients with stems cells for cash is the height of hypocrisy.

the board of directors at a church is non-biased? LOL

so, you are OK with churches robbing us blind, but not with hospitals.

look, i agree that non-profit hospitals definitely stretch the rules. rules need to be tightened, no doubt. however, thats more regulations, which we know you hate. cant have it both ways

 

[drusso]

insurance pays for stem cells, eh? thats news to me. im not talking about PRP, which -- although overutilized -- is at least somewhat legitimate.

claiming to be too good/pure/ethical/independent for a hospital, then blasting your patients with stems cells for cash is the height of hypocrisy.

the board of directors at a church is non-biased? LOL

so, you are OK with churches robbing us blind, but not with hospitals.

look, i agree that non-profit hospitals definitely stretch the rules. rules need to be tightened, no doubt. however, thats more regulations, which we know you hate. cant have it both ways

Yes, we have contracts with health plans for BMAC injections. But like everything else, if it is not covered by insurance we have a cash price.

I just walked out a room for a follow-up ACL BMAC injection. Progressing well in PT. Weaned from brace.


J Transl Med. 2018 Sep 3;16(1):246. doi: 10.1186/s12967-018-1623-3.
Symptomatic anterior cruciate ligament tears treated with percutaneous injection of autologous bone marrow concentrate and platelet products: a non-controlled registry study.
Centeno C1,2, Markle J1, Dodson E3, Stemper I2, Williams C1, Hyzy M1, Ichim T4, Freeman M5.
Author information

Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Bone marrow concentrate (BMC) has shown promise in the treatment of several orthopedic conditions. This registry study investigated the use of autologous BMC and platelet products for percutaneous anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) treatment.
METHODS:
Twenty-nine patients presenting to a single outpatient interventional musculoskeletal and pain practice with symptomatic grade 1, 2, or 3 ACL tears with less than 1 cm retraction were enrolled. Patients were treated with a percutaneous ACL injection of autologous BMC and platelet products using fluoroscopic guidance. Pre- and post-treatment magnetic resonance imaging analysis was completed for 23 patients using ImageJ software for an objective quantitative analysis of pixel density as a proxy for ACL integrity. Subjective clinical outcome measures collected pre-treatment and at 1, 3, 6, 12, 18, 24, and 36 months post-treatment include the Numerical Pain Scale (NPS), the Lower Extremity Functional Scale (LEFS), the International Knee Documentation Committee (IKDC) form, and a modified version of the Single Assessment Numeric Evaluation.
RESULTS:
Seventy-seven percent of patients treated with BMC injections into the ACL showed significant improvement (p < 0.01) in objective measures of ACL integrity at an average of 8.8 months (median 4.7 months). The mean of last patient-reported improvement was 72% (SD = 35) at an average of 23 (SD = 10) months post-treatment. Mean scores were found to be significantly different (p < 0.05) for the NPS at 6, 18, and 24 months, and LEFS and IKDC at all time points (i.e. 1, 3, 6, 12, 18, 24, and 36 months) relative to baseline.
CONCLUSION:
In symptomatic patients with grade 1, 2, or even grade 3 tears with minimal retraction, ACL treatment with percutaneous injection of BMC and platelet products shows promise as a non-surgical alternative. However, a larger randomized controlled trial is warranted to confirm these findings. Trial registration NCT03011398. A Clinical Registry of Orthobiologics Procedures. Project Activate: Mindfulness and Acceptance Based Behavioral Treatment for Weight Loss - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.govNCT03011398?term=orthobiologics&rank=1 . Registered 29 December 2016. Enrollment 1 December 2011-retrospectively registered.
KEYWORDS:
ACL; Anterior cruciate ligament; BMC; Bone marrow concentrate; Knee injury; Knee instability; MSC; Mesenchymal stem cells; Percutaneous injections; Regenerative medicine
PMID: 30176875 PMCID: PMC6122476 DOI: 10.1186/s12967-018-1623-3

I wish you would fact check before posting.

 

[SSdoc33]

SMH.

This is how you handle things in the "hot zone"?

if this is a young patient, they should be getting the ACL repaired. If its an old patient, then this is most likely arthritis, which can also wait. what are you DOING? emergent ACL injections with stem cells?

also, PT is questionable right now as well.

i think we just have different VALUES

 

[drusso]

SMH.

This is how you handle things in the "hot zone"?

if this is a young patient, they should be getting the ACL repaired. If its an old patient, then this is most likely arthritis, which can also wait. what are you DOING? emergent ACL injections with stem cells?

also, PT is questionable right now as well.

i think we just have different VALUES

He had his procedure 6 weeks ago. He has been working with virtual PT. Why so judgy?

 

[SSdoc33]

He had his procedure 6 weeks ago. He has been working with virtual PT. Why so judgy?

I thought i had read that you just did the shot. If you didnt change your original post, then i do apologize.

Whats the scenario? Why not fix it?

 

[drusso]

I thought i had read that you just did the shot. If you didnt change your original post, then i do apologize.

Whats the scenario? Why not fix it?

What's been your experience with outcomes for incomplete ACL tears who are symptomatic post-rehab? Do you like sending those patients to the surgeon?

 

[Ferrismonk]

how much does goldman sachs have in reserve? harvard? the catholic church?
View attachment 301401

The Catholic church isn't rich. You just think so because they still have nice art (that they commissioned) from 500 years ago. Virtually every Catholic parish is on a shoe-string budget. The Catholic church is also the worlds largest charitable organization and has founded countless hospitals, clinics, nursing homes, group homes for those with special needs, soup kitchens, schools, universities, orphanages, etc etc etc.

I also find it ironic you ignored some of the companies with the biggest cash reserves, namely liberal darlings Facebook, Google/Alphabet, and Apple.

Here are the 10 companies with the most cash on hand

Several companies, including Microsoft, Berkshire Hathaway, Alphabet and Apple are sitting on more than $100 billion dollars of cash, which is leading some on Wall Street to question why America's largest companies aren't spending.

www.cnbc.com

 

[lonelobo]

$1 billion in reserves is an embarrassment.

Who said the aforementioned hospital was non-profit?

 

[lonelobo]

The Catholic church isn't rich. You just think so because they still have nice art (that they commissioned) from 500 years ago. Virtually every Catholic parish is on a shoe-string budget. The Catholic church is also the worlds largest charitable organization and has founded countless hospitals, clinics, nursing homes, group homes for those with special needs, soup kitchens, schools, universities, orphanages, etc etc etc.

I also find it ironic you ignored some of the companies with the biggest cash reserves, namely liberal darlings Facebook, Google/Alphabet, and Apple.

Here are the 10 companies with the most cash on hand

Several companies, including Microsoft, Berkshire Hathaway, Alphabet and Apple are sitting on more than $100 billion dollars of cash, which is leading some on Wall Street to question why America's largest companies aren't spending.

www.cnbc.com

Sounds like those Friday Fish Frys are pretty luccrative

With $30b in wealth, why is the Catholic Church struggling to pay for justice?

While the Catholic Church has accumulated staggering wealth, governments continue to exempt it from almost all rates and taxes.

www.smh.com.au

 

[SSdoc33]

The Catholic church isn't rich. You just think so because they still have nice art (that they commissioned) from 500 years ago. Virtually every Catholic parish is on a shoe-string budget. The Catholic church is also the worlds largest charitable organization and has founded countless hospitals, clinics, nursing homes, group homes for those with special needs, soup kitchens, schools, universities, orphanages, etc etc etc.

I also find it ironic you ignored some of the companies with the biggest cash reserves, namely liberal darlings Facebook, Google/Alphabet, and Apple.

Here are the 10 companies with the most cash on hand

Several companies, including Microsoft, Berkshire Hathaway, Alphabet and Apple are sitting on more than $100 billion dollars of cash, which is leading some on Wall Street to question why America's largest companies aren't spending.

www.cnbc.com

I didnt go after the FAANG companies bc drusso wanted to keep them out of it. But no, they are just as evil with their stock buybacks.

Catholic church still has plenty of dough. They are losing customers bc so many priests like to diddle young boys, and the world is becoming more secular.

Yes, the charity work helps. Kind of offset by guilting the masses to pay money they dont have just so they wont go to hell. In the end, its a wash, imho. As you can see, im slightly jaded. The point is that the tax-exempt status is BS. Both for hospitals and religious institutions.

 

[DrSpine]

So, here's why these threats don't matter to Pain Physicians doing procedures for a Hospital. You don't need them as much as they need you. You are not easily replaceable, and losing you if you walk out means losing so much from facility fees and lucrative streams.

 

[drusso]

So, here's why these threats don't matter to Pain Physicians doing procedures for a Hospital. You don't need them as much as they need you. You are not easily replaceable, and losing you if you walk out means losing so much from facility fees and lucrative streams.

What price your soul? You want to be part of a scheme that gouges patients on facility fees and kicks back $$ to you in your salary?

 

[hyperalgesia]

Excellent discussion!

Boycott non-competes! I've have always said this and lived it. Never signed one, never will. These things are an abomination and no physician should graduate medical school without being educated in this.

 

[DOctorJay]

Boycott non-competes! I've have always said this and lived it. Never signed one, never will. These things are an abomination and no physician should graduate medical school without being educated in this.

non-competes need to be legislated out as unenforceable so that it's a broad stroke that protects us all. there are always those who will accept this to get their carrot. I wish I knew better not to sign it (20 mile, 2 years) when I took my position. free agency is our leverage.

 

[Ferrismonk]

Sounds like those Friday Fish Frys are pretty luccrative

With $30b in wealth, why is the Catholic Church struggling to pay for justice?

While the Catholic Church has accumulated staggering wealth, governments continue to exempt it from almost all rates and taxes.

www.smh.com.au

This is obviously a sensitive topic to me, but from your own article:
"One in five Australian students - nearly one in four in Victoria - is educated in the Catholic system "
"The ill are often treated at St Vincent’s, St John of God, Mercy or Cabrini hospitals; the elderly at one of hundreds of nursing homes, all controlled by Catholic religious orders."
"And when in need, or when we donate, we often turn to St Vincent de Paul or Sacred Heart Mission, just two of many Catholic-run charities and welfare agencies."
"The church’s internal bank ... the Catholic Development Fund ... lends money to parishes, schools and other church-related activities" This is not some investment bank. It is a centralized fund to loan money to support the Church's charitable mission. Same for the Vatican bank.

Catholic church still has plenty of dough. They are losing customers bc so many priests like to diddle young boys, and the world is becoming more secular.

Yes, the charity work helps. Kind of offset by guilting the masses to pay money they dont have just so they wont go to hell

You've obviously drank the liberal media cool-aid. Catholic clerical abuse, while terrible, is much less than child abuse in the public schools and other secular institutions.

Forgotten Study: Abuse in School 100 Times Worse than by Priests - LifeSite

by LifeSiteNews.com

www.lifesitenews.com

and a few non-religious websites:

Has Media Ignored Sex Abuse In School?

<b>NRO</b>: Why Haven't Teachers Received Same Scrutiny As Catholic Priests?

www.cbsnews.com

Separating Facts About Clergy Abuse From Fiction

Quality research data and industry best practices will solve clerical abuse.

www.psychologytoday.com

A Crisis As Millions Of Students Abused By Teachers

Education: For a parent, the headline couldn't be more alarming: "Teacher of the Year accused of molesting student, charged with 5 felonies." It's a story that, tragically, is all too... Read More

www.investors.com

 

[lonelobo]

What liberal kool-aid?
Who cares if their is less pedophilia in catholic churches overall than in public schools.

Like the Boys Scouts, Higher ups in the church
Knew abuse was going on and still allowed these monsters to work with kids.

Decades and decades of cover-up to protect their "good name"

This is not a liberal or conservative issue
It is abhorrent behavior that we all can agree

 

[paindoc007]

You've obviously drank the liberal media cool-aid. Catholic clerical abuse, while terrible, is much less than child abuse in the public schools and other secular institutions.

To make this issue political is disgraceful. You’re a joke dude

 

[Ferrismonk]

Sorry I brought politics into this, I know I'm the first on this board to do that.

I see the same old tactic:

Liberal: Look at how bad (insert a western religion/traditional social viewpoint/republican/oil company/bank of your choice) is!
Conservative: You're wrong because of these facts.
Liberal: Nobody cares about the details, overall I'm correct! And you are a (insert derogatory label of your choice) for thinking otherwise!
Conservative: Sigh.

 

[lobelsteve]

What liberal kool-aid?
Who cares if their is less pedophilia in catholic churches overall than in public schools.

Like the Boys Scouts, Higher ups in the church
Knew abuse was going on and still allowed these monsters to work with kids.

Decades and decades of cover-up to protect their "good name"

This is not a liberal or conservative issue
It is abhorrent behavior that we all can agree

Completely wrong here. Let me correct your viewpoint.

What liberal Kool-aid?
Who cares if there is less pedophilia in Catholic churches overall than in public schools.

Similar to the Boys Scouts and higher ups in the church that
knew abuse was going on and still allowed these monsters to work with kids.

Decades and decades of cover-up to protect their "good name"

This is not a liberal or conservative issue.
It is abhorrent behavior in which we all can agree.


Quote in green and bold for changes. Content nor context were changed. I'm bored.

 

[Jcm800]

The Catholic church isn't rich. You just think so because they still have nice art (that they commissioned) from 500 years ago. Virtually every Catholic parish is on a shoe-string budget. The Catholic church is also the worlds largest charitable organization and has founded countless hospitals, clinics, nursing homes, group homes for those with special needs, soup kitchens, schools, universities, orphanages, etc etc etc.

I also find it ironic you ignored some of the companies with the biggest cash reserves, namely liberal darlings Facebook, Google/Alphabet, and Apple.

Here are the 10 companies with the most cash on hand

Several companies, including Microsoft, Berkshire Hathaway, Alphabet and Apple are sitting on more than $100 billion dollars of cash, which is leading some on Wall Street to question why America's largest companies aren't spending.

www.cnbc.com

I think there are a lot of choir boys who would disagree with this assessment

 

[Jcm800]

It’s the same old thing.... cry foul that someone is doing something that you are basically doing, but slightly veiled. Then claim moral victory... hypocrisy has to be exhausting...

 

[DrSpine]

What price your soul? You want to be part of a scheme that gouges patients on facility fees and kicks back $$ to you in your salary?

I think you're misunderstanding me. Was just saying that if an administrator ever threatened me like, and I was stuck in that situation, I know what my worth is and what I bring in for them. So that threat would never work on me, I will leave. Bye bye facility fees, and we're not Bartenders or Grocery Store Managers that can be found off a Craigslist ad. Good luck finding the next guy - the length of time and loss of revenue stream would be far too much for them to swallow.

 

[clubdeac]

wow this thread is all over the place!

 

[drusso]

wow this thread is all over the place!

It's shameful that employed MD's are being treated this way...

 

[geauxg8rs]

It's shameful that employed MD's are being treated this way...

View attachment 301891

I am assuming these hospitals that let physicians and mid levels go will get to keep the checks that the cares act gives them? Seems like there should be a catch that if HHS gives you money you should either keep on that person until it is over or you refund the money to the Doctor’s new job, the Doctor him/herself, or refund back to HHS. It should be like the PPP grant qualification

 

[DOctorJay]

Opinion: Doctors, nurses and patients could suffer if Congress doesn't outlaw these contracts

Non-compete clauses can deter doctors, nurses and other health professionals from speaking out about dangerous conditions and practices on the job and hinder millions from finding work once the acute phase of the crisis ends, writes Sandeep Vaheesan, legal director at the Open Markets Institute.

www.cnn.com

"Health care workers bound by non-competes may opt to remain quiet instead of speaking up about unsafe conditions. Multiple physicians have expressed reluctance to voice concerns on the job on account of their non-compete clauses. Non-competes deter doctors from fulfilling their ethical obligations on the job. Speaking out about the lack of personal protective equipment or poor testing processes can mean unemployment or forced relocation. Through the weapon of non-competes, health care employers have imposed a code of silence among doctors. As a result, their colleagues and patients may suffer from the indifference and recklessness of their employers and other public health actors."

 

[drusso]

Months ago people accused me of "crying wolf" about Corona-triggers. Who's crying now?

 

[lobelsteve]

Months ago people accused me of "crying wolf" about Corona-triggers. Who's crying now?

I'm not crying, it's my allergies.

 

[drusso]

Are hospitals going to suspend elective cases again? Implications for pain?

Louisiana Hospital Pauses Elective Surgery Amid Largest COVID-19 Case Increase Since Pandemic Began

Only 36.3% of Louisiana's population is fully vaccinated.

www.wbur.org

 

[Agast]

We’re going to start mandating vaccines at another big Texas hospital and I’m sure several others will follow suit now that the VA is mandating their staff be vaccinated. ASC procedures were not affected but elective Hospital procedures were last surge. Since we’re not reaching 50% vaccinated and Delta is crazy virulent there will probably be some leaner times which is too bad because the last quarter is always the best financially.

 

[painfree23]

We’re going to start mandating vaccines at another big Texas hospital and I’m sure several others will follow suit now that the VA is mandating their staff be vaccinated. ASC procedures were not affected but elective Hospital procedures were last surge. Since we’re not reaching 50% vaccinated and Delta is crazy virulent there will probably be some leaner times which is too bad because the last quarter is always the best financially.

Wat other hospital in Texas? Have you or anyone seen clinic volumes drop?

 

[Agast]

Wat other hospital in Texas? Have you or anyone seen clinic volumes drop?

Memorial Hermann.

Clinic volume is unchanged, there is an increase in obnoxious patients trying to take their masks off

 

[Ferrismonk]

Still crazy to me that employers can mandate people get a medication that isn't even fully approved by the FDA.

 

[Ducttape]

that's truly a matter of semantics and a political bent.

you and i constantly prescribe medications for non-FDA approved indications.

or, pertaining COVID:
technically, using any surgical mask instead of an actual 3M N-95 respirator mask is an EUA, ie not fully approved.

using a face shield is an EUA.

a Negative Pressure room is an EUA.

only a few of the many COVID tests is fully authorized for use by the FDA, and the first one was fully authorized starting April 1 2021. yes, 4 months ago.

so technically all COVID tests prior to april 1 and the majority of covid tests after April 1 are under EUA...

 

[Agast]

Welp, two of my patients dropped off the procedure schedule tomorrow due to coming down with COVID or family member with COVID. All unvaccinated.

 

[jsaul]

Still crazy to me that employers can mandate people get a medication that isn't even fully approved by the FDA.

i made it mandatory in my office and let go of a part timer because of non compliance

 

[callmeanesthesia]

I’m in CA where the state just mandated either proof of vaccination or weekly tests for all healthcare workers. Going to have to talk to our lawyer about what to do with people who refuse both. Also not keen on having to let employees leave to get tested weekly, which under current CalOSHA guidelines may be on the clock.

 

[clubdeac]

They are mandating it at our hospital. Forcing those of us that have already had Covid is not only disingenuous but also unscientific. Natural immunity has been shown to be as good as if not superior to acquired immunity. Furthermore, vaccinating those that have natural immunity has been shown to confer not additional benefit. I'm not anti-vax but there have been a fair number of significant adverse reactions to these vaccines. They are not benign. What ever happened to honoring "patient autonomy" and "shared decision making" or even premum non nocere?

 

[Ferrismonk]

that's truly a matter of semantics and a political bent.

you and i constantly prescribe medications for non-FDA approved indications.

or, pertaining COVID:
technically, using any surgical mask instead of an actual 3M N-95 respirator mask is an EUA, ie not fully approved.

using a face shield is an EUA.

a Negative Pressure room is an EUA.

only a few of the many COVID tests is fully authorized for use by the FDA, and the first one was fully authorized starting April 1 2021. yes, 4 months ago.

so technically all COVID tests prior to april 1 and the majority of covid tests after April 1 are under EUA...

FDA used the EUA on some PPE because of shortages. I have no problem with that. Covid was an emergency.
FDA allowed EUA for COVID testing because they needed something to work with to understand COVID, I understand that.
FDA allowed EUA for COVID vaccines (even the novel mRNA ones). Completely reasonable due to pandemic.

Not allowing someone to work because they don't want to be injected with a novel medication, without long term studies on it's side effects, which makes our own cells express immunogenic antigens, even if they aren't sick, even if they've already had COVID, and it isn't even fully approved by the FDA? I think that's unreasonable.

 

[Ducttape]

They are mandating it at our hospital. Forcing those of us that have already had Covid is not only disingenuous but also unscientific. Natural immunity has been shown to be as good as if not superior to acquired immunity. Furthermore, vaccinating those that have natural immunity has been shown to confer not additional benefit. I'm not anti-vax but there have been a fair number of significant adverse reactions to these vaccines. They are not benign. What ever happened to honoring "patient autonomy" and "shared decision making" or even premum non nocere?

no offense, but this is a dumpster fire of misinformation.

natural immunity is not as good.

FDA used the EUA on some PPE because of shortages. I have no problem with that. Covid was an emergency.
FDA allowed EUA for COVID testing because they needed something to work with to understand COVID, I understand that.
FDA allowed EUA for COVID vaccines (even the novel mRNA ones). Completely reasonable due to pandemic.

Not allowing someone to work because they don't want to be injected with a novel medication, without long term studies on it's side effects, which makes our own cells express immunogenic antigens, even if they aren't sick, even if they've already had COVID, and it isn't even fully approved by the FDA? I think that's unreasonable.

but... COVID is still an emergency, hence the EUA for vaccines. the full approval process takes a long time. its not because of safety, its because of the slow process. apparently, the average full approval process takes 5 to 10 years. it would be the most foolish policy to wait for standard FDA approval process.
"A good plan violently executed now is better than the perfect plan executed next week".

1. it is not novel any more. the vaccine has been developed and tested for almost a year.
2. there are multiple studies that show minimal side effects and percentage wise, someones risk of having a health problem from a vaccine is magnitudes less than their risk from dying from an active infection, or developing covid long haul symptoms from prior infection. just looking at numbers, I get the feeling that the risk of reinfection is greater than the risk of complications from vaccine.
3. our natural immunity is not as effective as vaccine, particularly for delta.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.15.440089v2.full.pdf

How Immunity Generated from COVID-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

A key issue as we move closer to ending the pandemic is determining more precisely how long people exposed to SARS-CoV-2, the COVID-19 virus, will make neutralizing antibodies against this dangerou…

directorsblog.nih.gov

in addition, early data (as even noted by Ken Gov Beshear) shows that reinfection with delta is driving new rates.

Beshear: Kentucky seeing high rate of COVID-19 reinfection because of delta variant

“If you have had COVID and that is the reason you’re not getting vaccinated, the data is starting to show you need to get vaccinated," Beshear warned during a briefing

www.wpsdlocal6.com

reinfection rate with delta variant may be significantly higher than previous variants, and the viral load is much higher.

Cases Of Delta Variant Of COVID-19 Warns A Risk Of Reinfection

Delta variant of COVID-19 may carry a 46% greater risk of reinfection than the Alpha variant.

www.medindia.net

as a serious and concerning counterpoint, most recent Israeli data suggests that Pfizer vaccine is only 40% effective against delta variant, although 91% effective in preventing death and hospitalization. in addition, there is some data to suggest that asymptomatic people are carrying huge viral loads, unlike before.

hence the new mask requirements being put back out by the CDC.

finally...

tell your grandmother just to hold her breath while a poorly masked asymptomatic but infected nurses aide, who refuses to get vaccinated because she got raights, checks her vitals or changes her sheets.

 

[callmeanesthesia]

They are mandating it at our hospital. Forcing those of us that have already had Covid is not only disingenuous but also unscientific. Natural immunity has been shown to be as good as if not superior to acquired immunity. Furthermore, vaccinating those that have natural immunity has been shown to confer not additional benefit. I'm not anti-vax but there have been a fair number of significant adverse reactions to these vaccines. They are not benign. What ever happened to honoring "patient autonomy" and "shared decision making" or even premum non nocere?

I read a lot of the COVID news and data but I haven’t seen anything saying natural immunity is better than the vaccine, or that vaccinating those with pre-existing Immunity is not helpful, particularly with the delta variant. Can you find your sources on that? I’d be curious to read it.

 

[deleted284725]

They are mandating it at our hospital. Forcing those of us that have already had Covid is not only disingenuous but also unscientific. Natural immunity has been shown to be as good as if not superior to acquired immunity. Furthermore, vaccinating those that have natural immunity has been shown to confer not additional benefit. I'm not anti-vax but there have been a fair number of significant adverse reactions to these vaccines. They are not benign. What ever happened to honoring "patient autonomy" and "shared decision making" or even premum non nocere?

“I’m not anti-vax but…” has become a lot like “I’m not racist but…”. If you’re saying it, you probably are.

 

[painfree23]

Welp, two of my patients dropped off the procedure schedule tomorrow due to coming down with COVID or family member with COVID. All unvaccinated.

Still crazy to me that employers can mandate people get a medication that isn't even fully approved by the FDA.

Are

I read a lot of the COVID news and data but I haven’t seen anything saying natural immunity is better than the vaccine, or that vaccinating those with pre-existing Immunity is not helpful, particularly with the delta variant. Can you find your sources on that? I’d be curious to read it.

was watching the nightly news today and they interviewed nurses about why they aren’t getting the vax. NBC presented them with facts , saying “these r the facts…vaccines help….they showed stats for vax vs nonvax.

The nurses answer - “are they facts? Are they really?”

U can’t argue with stupid.