comlex scores and specialties

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Deceptacon

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I know this has been asked previously, but does anyone have any information (even anecdotal) on average comlex scores for various competitive specialties?

For derm, I've talked to a couple programs that say they only consider people with top 10 percent board scores but i'm not exactly sure what that means and the only numbers I can calculate are based on a standard deviation of 81 and a mean comlex of 500.

For ortho, based purely on what i've read in this forum, i've heard that you'd generally need a 600+ score to be considered.

No idea for ENT or the rest, but i'm interested in hearing other people's opinions on the matter.

My hope for this thread is that people who are interested in competitive osteopathic specialties (ortho, derm, ent, neuro surg etc.) post the information they have acquired. i'm less interested in the allopathic world since that information is easily acquired, and i'm not sure if the equivalent information for the osteopathic world even exists (i've been unable to find it).
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Generally what you hear is that COMLEX scores don't matter all that much. You will have needed to have done unequivocally "well" to be considering ortho, ophtho or derm... but I can tell you I know an ophtho who scores 560 (my cousin), a derm who scored 583 and an ortho who scores somewhere in the 570s.

So the "600 cutoff" is not right. And I didn't expect it to be right. I imagine my 560 who got into ophtho is because he charmed his way in (and prob had some good skills too), but its testament to the fact that the DO programs do live up to the stereotype of preferring people who are "generally qualified" by board score and "specifically good to work with". Just be good on rotations, blow them away on interviews, and generally be a good guy/gal and you'll find the board scores matter much less than you think they do.

Do they still matter: of course. But I dont think there are any hard cutoffs like there are in the ACGME world, and even if there were, they are much lower than anecdotes would suggest they are. There aren't many DO ophtho programs out there, even one person with a 560 is statistically relevant. Same thing with derm.

TL;DR: impress people with your skills and personality. COMLEX scores aren't *as* important as you think, though still relevant.
 
While I'm sure that there are exceptions and a certain number of people who "charm" their way into programs, there MUST be some sort of cut off range where programs won't interview applicants based on their score. It's my understanding that audition rotations are necessary for a lot of rotations, but there must be a way to get an interview at places having never been there before and my guess would be they look at your grades + comlex.

I do appreciate your opinion and the numbers you put out there.

And, as I posted previously, at least 1 derm program only allows applicants with top 10 percent board scores to rotate through there. Which supports the idea that, while maybe not all programs have a cut off at least some probably do.
 
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Well yea. But your mentality is, IMHO, very ACGME. Which is fine. I'm aiming for that too (and often think in those terms). Its just not the case in the AOA. Im sure there are programs with cut offs, but they're lower than you'd think. I actually assume they all do, but they aren't all that high I'd think. The fact that they're not known implies that while they exist, they're not the major factor in deciding who gets in and out.

Its just what I've been told over and over. AOA's big thing is that they sort of are very flexible and leniant with scores... though you still need "something impressive" for the competitive fields. I imagine 1 SD above the mean is a safe "minimum" if you needed one. I dont think i've ever actually seen someone lay out a minimum score range for anything. The AOA is, as always, less transparent and well studied than we'd like.
 
also those specialties like audition rotations where you do well as well as RESEARCH! find a preceptor that will let you do research or write and article with him or her.


DocEspana said:
Generally what you hear is that COMLEX scores don't matter all that much. You will have needed to have done unequivocally "well" to be considering ortho, ophtho or derm... but I can tell you I know an ophtho who scores 560 (my cousin), a derm who scored 583 and an ortho who scores somewhere in the 570s.

So the "600 cutoff" is not right. And I didn't expect it to be right. I imagine my 560 who got into ophtho is because he charmed his way in (and prob had some good skills too), but its testament to the fact that the DO programs do live up to the stereotype of preferring people who are "generally qualified" by board score and "specifically good to work with". Just be good on rotations, blow them away on interviews, and generally be a good guy/gal and you'll find the board scores matter much less than you think they do.

Do they still matter: of course. But I dont think there are any hard cutoffs like there are in the ACGME world, and even if there were, they are much lower than anecdotes would suggest they are. There aren't many DO ophtho programs out there, even one person with a 560 is statistically relevant. Same thing with derm.

TL;DR: impress people with your skills and personality. COMLEX scores aren't *as* important as you think, though still relevant.
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i was able to get some info for at least 1 ortho program. mean comlex of ~570 per the program director. ~400 applicants for 4 slots.
 
I think board scores will become more important in upcoming years since DO schools keep expanding. If you add up the number of AOA gas, surgery, ent, ns, urology, ortho, rads, optho, and derm spots/year it is around ~400. A 570 is around 80th percentile, so there will a little over 1000 DOs with that score or higher in 2013. Not that all of them want to do those specialities, but I'm sure a fair share will try...I won't be applying to any of the surgeries at least
 
cliquesh said:
I think board scores will become more important in upcoming years since DO schools keep expanding. If you add up the number of AOA gas, surgery, ent, ns, urology, ortho, rads, optho, and derm spots/year it is around ~400. A 570 is around 80th percentile, so there will a little over 1000 DOs with that score or higher in 2013. Not that all of them want to do those specialities, but I'm sure a fair share will try...I won't be applying to any of the surgeries at least
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i'd tend to agree with you on that, but we'll see how it goes. the 570 that i quoted earlier seemed surprisingly low to me, especially for ortho.

i'm really hoping that scores carry more weight as time goes on, since i don't have many connections and i'm going for derm.
 
cliquesh said:
I think board scores will become more important in upcoming years since DO schools keep expanding. If you add up the number of AOA gas, surgery, ent, ns, urology, ortho, rads, optho, and derm spots/year it is around ~400. A 570 is around 80th percentile, so there will a little over 1000 DOs with that score or higher in 2013. Not that all of them want to do those specialities, but I'm sure a fair share will try...I won't be applying to any of the surgeries at least
Click to expand...

These stats are confounded by the fact that many DOs who cracked 570 probably also took the USMLE and/or will be aiming at allo programs.
 
dozitgetchahi said:
These stats are confounded by the fact that many DOs who cracked 570 probably also took the USMLE and/or will be aiming at allo programs.
Click to expand...

any 570 +'ers want to chime in with your specialty and if you will be going osteo or allopathic? it's a good chance to brag about your score for a good cause.
 
I got a 475 / 80 on the COMLEX I, anyone know just how behind the 8 ball I am for a shot at an ER residency?
 
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Deceptacon said:
any 570 +'ers want to chime in with your specialty and if you will be going osteo or allopathic? it's a good chance to brag about your score for a good cause.
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I got a 606/89, but my usmle was only a 216/91, so I'm probably going to go more realistically for the osteopathic match. I'm undecided but considering PM&R, IM, or EM.
 
dozitgetchahi said:
These stats are confounded by the fact that many DOs who cracked 570 probably also took the USMLE and/or will be aiming at allo programs.
Click to expand...

Deceptacon said:
any 570 +'ers want to chime in with your specialty and if you will be going osteo or allopathic? it's a good chance to brag about your score for a good cause.
Click to expand...

in the 580s here. Going allopathic unless my rotation at an osteo ophtho program blows me away. 234 USMLE. As long as i dont fall in love with urology, ENT or radiology i should be able to get into allo programs without too much worry, as long as i apply wide enough.
 
thanks to those who have already posted.

660's and 240's for me. i'll likely be going osteo derm with allo heme/onc as back up.
 
i've been hearing that many programs prefer 600+ for osteo rads.
 
DocEspana said:
in the 580s here. Going allopathic unless my rotation at an osteo ophtho program blows me away. 234 USMLE. As long as i dont fall in love with urology, ENT or radiology i should be able to get into allo programs without too much worry, as long as i apply wide enough.
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Allo ophtho? Good luck. I know a DO who got it, but the success stories are few and far between. I know a program that didn't match 3 of its spots this year and still wouldn't take a DO in the scramble.
 
Kuba said:
Allo ophtho? Good luck. I know a DO who got it, but the success stories are few and far between. I know a program that didn't match 3 of its spots this year and still wouldn't take a DO in the scramble.
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hahaha forgot that one on my list of things i wont bother with. also allo derm. I figure just go to charting outcomes and draw a line at the 234 mark if the mean is above that, then no. Which is just a handful of specialties, of which only ophtho am I at all interested in... and I'll take my chance becoming the second person in my family to go DO ophtho before I try for allo.

EDIT: Perhaps my last comment before wasn't clear, i'd be applying only allopathic non-ophtho stuff unless my one AOA residency of interest, AOA ophtho, snags my heart. No interest in putting myself through the stress of applying allo ophtho.
 
Deceptacon said:
any 570 +'ers want to chime in with your specialty and if you will be going osteo or allopathic? it's a good chance to brag about your score for a good cause.
Click to expand...

570s level 1, waiting for my level 2 any day now, planning for ob/gyn, debating about whether to do both matches or just MD. Didn't take the USMLE.
 
Hokie06 said:
Yea but the few people I know who matched osteo rads had >700. I didn't take usmle unfortunately, starting to kick myself for it. Will most likely take step 2 though to keep my options open in case rads don't work out
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i doubt there are even enough 700+ scores to fill up every rads slot, that's about 2.5 SD's above the mean
 
Hokie06 said:
Anyone know what score is considered competitive for osteopathic radiology?
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I've heard from DO Rads resident that 550+ is generally good. Although more important is the audition rotation with the programs than board scores/research.
 
Deceptacon said:
any 570 +'ers want to chime in with your specialty and if you will be going osteo or allopathic? it's a good chance to brag about your score for a good cause.
Click to expand...

250's usmle 610's comlex, probably allo IM or pathology
 
Deceptacon said:
i love heme/onc, that's a strong number 2 for me. i feel like it should be far more competitive than it actually is.
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It isn't that easy. But, yea, most people probably do not want to be involved with a speciality where nearly 100% of your patients will die under your care.
 
Well I'm military so my situation is different but I got 652 and am going for ortho. If I was applying civilian, I would do DO only. I'm not looking to go into academics so the DO residencies would be good for me. But alas, I'll never get to know the "satisfaction" of waiting til February or March to match haha.
 
surge23 said:
i've been hearing that many programs prefer 600+ for osteo rads.
Click to expand...

i had a friend who is almost done w/ do rads res now who scored < 500 but is an all around easy to get along w/ super awesome personality person. he did get in to his program b/c he rotated there or they wouldn't have looked at him. most of my school mates went md rads and took usmle. i do have another do rads friend and he did score > 600 on both comlex.

umdnj-som has cutoffs for uro, ent, ortho at 600 unless u rotated there in which case, if they like u and u have < 600 but r good otherwise, u may still get an interview. there's even the story of someone w/ a super subpar comlex from the school who rotated there and got an interview and did get an offer and ended up being their best resident that everyone says u should be like now. and its not an urban legend as the gme guy confirmed the story.

i know someone from my school who matched md derm a few yrs back. we've had multiple match into md rads, anes, em at solid (though not ivy level, think like uconn) programs. im at yale, etc and many into not as competitive specialties at ivies (hopkins, mayo, dartmouth, penn, etc). and we've also had ppl w/ > 700 boards and mostly honors and derm research not match into md derm but prob will into do derm on the 2nd try.

it all really depends and u don't know til u try and it always ups ur chances if u do an audition rotation (unless u have great #s and not such a great personality). now if your boards scores are < 600, then ask the programs to get an honest answer. some md programs dunno what comlex equates to what usmle score tho and some (umich, emory come to mind) only accept usmle (i know b/c i had to pay to take all 3 now so i'm taking step 1 way after i had the material/comlex).
 
Kuba said:
Allo ophtho? Good luck. I know a DO who got it, but the success stories are few and far between. I know a program that didn't match 3 of its spots this year and still wouldn't take a DO in the scramble.
Click to expand...

we had do ophtho in class of 2010 but both had super stellar grades and boards scores. i don't think anyone's who has tried since then.
 
the alchemist said:
i had a friend who is almost done w/ do rads res now who scored < 500 but is an all around easy to get along w/ super awesome personality person. he did get in to his program b/c he rotated there or they wouldn't have looked at him. most of my school mates went md rads and took usmle. i do have another do rads friend and he did score > 600 on both comlex.

umdnj-som has cutoffs for uro, ent, ortho at 600 unless u rotated there in which case, if they like u and u have < 600 but r good otherwise, u may still get an interview. there's even the story of someone w/ a super subpar comlex from the school who rotated there and got an interview and did get an offer and ended up being their best resident that everyone says u should be like now. and its not an urban legend as the gme guy confirmed the story.

i know someone from my school who matched md derm a few yrs back. we've had multiple match into md rads, anes, em at solid (though not ivy level, think like uconn) programs. im at yale, etc and many into not as competitive specialties at ivies (hopkins, mayo, dartmouth, penn, etc). and we've also had ppl w/ > 700 boards and mostly honors and derm research not match into md derm but prob will into do derm on the 2nd try.

it all really depends and u don't know til u try and it always ups ur chances if u do an audition rotation (unless u have great #s and not such a great personality). now if your boards scores are < 600, then ask the programs to get an honest answer. some md programs dunno what comlex equates to what usmle score tho and some (umich, emory come to mind) only accept usmle (i know b/c i had to pay to take all 3 now so i'm taking step 1 way after i had the material/comlex).
Click to expand...

Just out of curiosity, when you use the term 'ivy' what are you referring to?
 
dbth77 said:
Just out of curiosity, when you use the term 'ivy' what are you referring to?
Click to expand...

by "ivy", i mean those schools in the ivy league (like harvard, of course not all 8 of those school's med schools/residencies are looked at in the same light as the ug colleges are necessarily; i meant it in a general way) and other non-ivy league schools considered to be on the same level academically.

the ivy league started out as an athletic league but to be part of the original ivy league, the school had to have started before a certain year. i forget what it was but schools like stanford, uchicago, hopkins, mit (tho they don't have a med school/residency) were started after that year and so can't ever be "ivy league" according to the orig definition but are still considered on par academically. i meant residency programs at places like these that ppl think of as competitive b/c they might have made it on to some well published list of so called "top/best" schools and act as if they're the holy grail sometimes...
 
the alchemist said:
by "ivy", i mean those schools in the ivy league (like harvard, of course not all 8 of those school's med schools/residencies are looked at in the same light as the ug colleges are necessarily; i meant it in a general way) and other non-ivy league schools considered to be on the same level academically.

the ivy league started out as an athletic league but to be part of the original ivy league, the school had to have started before a certain year. i forget what it was but schools like stanford, uchicago, hopkins, mit (tho they don't have a med school/residency) were started after that year and so can't ever be "ivy league" according to the orig definition but are still considered on par academically. i meant residency programs at places like these that ppl think of as competitive b/c they might have made it on to some well published list of so called "top/best" schools and act as if they're the holy grail sometimes...
Click to expand...

whatever the year was, Hopkins was founded before it. There is an amusing story of hopkins turning down entry into the Ivy league when it was formed because they wanted to play sports against "real" teams. I guess that was a pretty big trade off in hindsight. "Ivy" may just be a name, but you gotta assume they'd prefer to have it and play weaker sports teams nowadays.
 
DocEspana said:
whatever the year was, Hopkins was founded before it. There is an amusing story of hopkins turning down entry into the Ivy league when it was formed because they wanted to play sports against "real" teams. I guess that was a pretty big trade off in hindsight. "Ivy" may just be a name, but you gotta assume they'd prefer to have it and play weaker sports teams nowadays.
Click to expand...

thanks. i stand corrected on hopkins then. just was answering the poster's question about what i mean (in general) w/ the term "ivy". but that is totally funny to think that hopkins turned it down for that reason :)

i know rutgers was founded b4 the year as well. and the term 'ivy league' now connotes more w/ academics than sports and even then some of the schools out of the 8 aren't all that anymore...
 
wannabeOBGYN said:
570s level 1, waiting for my level 2 any day now, planning for ob/gyn, debating about whether to do both matches or just MD. Didn't take the USMLE.
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Update: 570s level 1, 640s level 2, applying for ob, allo and osteo, but thinking about only ranking allo.
 
wannabeOBGYN said:
Update: 570s level 1, 640s level 2, applying for ob, allo and osteo, but thinking about only ranking allo.
Click to expand...

good jump in score from level 1 to 2. unfortunately i can't speak to the difficulty of matching allo ob with only comlex scores, but i can't imagine it being too difficult.
 
DocEspana said:
whatever the year was, Hopkins was founded before it. There is an amusing story of hopkins turning down entry into the Ivy league when it was formed because they wanted to play sports against "real" teams. I guess that was a pretty big trade off in hindsight. "Ivy" may just be a name, but you gotta assume they'd prefer to have it and play weaker sports teams nowadays.
Click to expand...

myth, bruh.
 
MedicinaeDoctor said:
myth, bruh.
Click to expand...

Truth: In 1937 the term ivy league was used by NY sportswriters to describe the terribly boring games that frequently occurred between the 8 Ivies we currently know as well as Army, Navy and Johns Hopkins. The term stuck as the 11 teams began work to formally establish their own conference. Don't buy into the nonsense from dartmouth or brown that say the title of "ivy league" for the conference was exciting. Ivy was not a reference to what grows on their wall, but on the speed of their play being about the same as ivy growing. In 1945, when they codified into an actual college football (and later all athletics) conference under the "Ivy agreement" army and navy couldnt join because they were already in a football athletics league and Hopkins chose not to. No one knows why Hopkins chose not to, but Hopkins claims it was because they wanted to join a more competitive athletics conference. They may be revising the past for their own enjoyment, but there appears to be no reasoning behind why they weren't in on the Ivy Agreement, unlike Army and Navy where historical journalism tells exactly why. Do sportscasters calling you an Ivy guarantee you'll become one when they formally unite? Prob not, but they are also the people who first called the big 8 ivy as well, so its a legitimate question that has no official answer as to why JH wasnt on that agreement if it was in there at the start.
 
Got COMLEX1 505, USMLE1 224. Interested in Emergency, IM, Gas, Rads. I know I'm probably not even competitive for most of these. Do you guys think I should only apply for allo b/c my comlex is so bad?
 
TawMus said:
Got COMLEX1 505, USMLE1 224. Interested in Emergency, IM, Gas, Rads. I know I'm probably not even competitive for most of these. Do you guys think I should only apply for allo b/c my comlex is so bad?
Click to expand...

? Your comlex and usmle are both pretty much average, one isn't better than the other
 
TawMus said:
Got COMLEX1 505, USMLE1 224. Interested in Emergency, IM, Gas, Rads. I know I'm probably not even competitive for most of these. Do you guys think I should only apply for allo b/c my comlex is so bad?
Click to expand...

Apply Allo for EM, IM, anesthesia... cuzz it's better that way.
 
Hi everyone, this is actually my first post on SDN!

My step1 scores are 500 comlex/200 usmle. I was wondering what my chances of landing a good IM program and GI fellowship would be? Would I have better luck doing through DO or Allo match? Also, I have a 3month old daughter and would like to stay in Chicago, though Im not completely opposed to relocating. Any recommendations on programs to audition at or apply to? Greatly appreciate any imput!!
 
DO match for sure...your 500 is good for IM in the aoa match vs the 200 in the allo. Look at Midwestern programs that have the GI specialty in your residency hospital.
 
If you want to stay in Chicago area, St. James Olympia Fields has a GI fellowship. Granted, you are about 45 mins south of the city
 
AACOM has a document that lists all of the DO specialties and the average stats of the students who matched, including board scores. In the end, no one knows for sure and no one can give you a correct answer, as each program varies as to what they are looking for in a student.

Here is the link to the document: http://www.aacom.org/data/Pages/default.aspx (click on Osteopathic GME Match Report 2011)
 
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