Clinical Pathology Residency

[vet2015]

Hi everyone, long time lurker here starting my second year of vet school. I came into vet school mostly with small animal private practice experience and initially thought that that would be the direction I would take. However, after much contemplation over this past year, I worry a lot about burning out if I go down that path. I've been considering other options and clinical pathology is looking more and more appealing. I think it could provide a fascinating career that would also fit me well personality wise and the hours/pay would be a step up from general practice (of course, please correct me if I'm wrong).

So that's the backstory. I was wondering if I could get some input as to how competitive clinical pathology residencies are and what I should do to make myself competitive. I worry because I have zero research experience, and from what I've gathered so far, that's an important component in landing a clin path residency. I really wasn't involved in any pathology related activities during my first year either (of course I plan to change that this year to figure out if the field is really for me). My grades aren't amazing either, although I'm hoping to improve some this year (current gpa is 3.0).

Also, I was wondering about the job outlook for clinical pathologists in the coming years. And would I also need a PhD to be competitive in the job market?

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[elefante7]

Hi everyone, long time lurker here starting my second year of vet school. I came into vet school mostly with small animal private practice experience and initially thought that that would be the direction I would take. However, after much contemplation over this past year, I worry a lot about burning out if I go down that path. I've been considering other options and clinical pathology is looking more and more appealing. I think it could provide a fascinating career that would also fit me well personality wise and the hours/pay would be a step up from general practice (of course, please correct me if I'm wrong).

So that's the backstory. I was wondering if I could get some input as to how competitive clinical pathology residencies are and what I should do to make myself competitive. I worry because I have zero research experience, and from what I've gathered so far, that's an important component in landing a clin path residency. I really wasn't involved in any pathology related activities during my first year either (of course I plan to change that this year to figure out if the field is really for me). My grades aren't amazing either, although I'm hoping to improve some this year (current gpa is 3.0).

Also, I was wondering about the job outlook for clinical pathologists in the coming years. And would I also need a PhD to be competitive in the job market?

I don't know a lot about it, but at my school you can work in the clin path lab as a vet student so I would definitely look into that. There are also clin path rounds once a week that any students may attend. You should definitely see if your school has something like that to continue getting your feet wet and getting to know the field.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I can give you an anatomic perspective.

I worked as an after-hours clinical pathology technician for a year and a half or so during veterinary school (similar to what elefante mentioned) so I would definitely look into that.

Sounds like you have a good direction with trying to up your path-related courses. Research is nice, and will help, but isn't 100% necessary IMO. If you can get it, great, but if you could do a path-related externship or electives, do that instead. However, before taking my word for it, I would ask the CP residents at your school.

In terms of job outlook, it's slightly better for CP people, we AP people basically HAVE to get a PhD in order to get most of the jobs out there (at teaching hospitals/universities - diagnostic lab jobs which don't care if you have a PhD or not are hard to come by in this economy). However, in all fields of pathology, getting a PhD as well as residency is pretty common.

With regards to grades.....I'm an anomaly, in that I got into a superb (not bragging - more extolling the virtues of my program, I love it) residency at a top-ranked school with just under a 3.0 GPA. However, I am not the norm - I had no way to improve my GPA in fourth year (where I really shined) because at my school it was all pass-fail, and I had metric ****loads of research experience, pathology externships, excellent LoRs, and all that. And yes, I got rejected because of my grades from some places, while others took more interest in my pathlogy-related experience and gave that more weight. So, while grades may not matter quite as much as an initial "weed-out" requirement, such as it is in the heavily recruited residencies such as surgery, they are still important.

Pathology also does not tend to care if you practiced or did an internship before starting. Since a lot of what we do is diagnostics and not tx/sx, an internship doesn'tprepare you for a path residency the same way it does for a surgery residency. It might look good, but I don't think it's super necessary.

 

[vet2015]

Thank you both for the feedback! I believe that my school does hold clin path rounds that are open to us, so I plan to start attending those. And I'll definitely look into if we have a clin path tech job like you both described.

Do you have any idea as to how competitive clin path residencies are to get? If that's the route that I decide I 100% want to go down, I'm just trying to figure out if I should devote all my extracurricular time towards being a strong applicant vs preparing to go into practice straight out of school as was my previous plan.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I'm not sure about clin path, but I know that when I was accepted into anatomic the rate was about 30-40 people applying per spot (then again, I'm at a pretty well-known program). I think it was slightly less the following two years but I'm honestly not sure.

 

[vet2015]

I'm not sure about clin path, but I know that when I was accepted into anatomic the rate was about 30-40 people applying per spot (then again, I'm at a pretty well-known program). I think it was slightly less the following two years but I'm honestly not sure.

Yikes, that's pretty intimidating, but good to know. I guess I'll definitely need a back up plan then haha.

As for electives, my school unfortunately does not offer a whole lot that are directly path related (at least not until 3rd year). Do you think electives in lab animal medicine would be helpful, or could that potentially send mixed messages in terms of my intended career path when it comes time to apply?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I think taking lab animal stuff would be fine - pathology people (well, anatomics at least, not so sure about clinpathers) are often involved in lab animal stuff because they call upon us to interpret the lesions they see in their experimental animals

 

[VET 2008]

Clinical pathologist here.

I think clin path residents are competitive but they are not very competitive. You have to be a good applicant with strong letters of recommendations (way more important than grades although I would get your GPA above 3) to get a spot as some programs would rather not take a resident than take an unqualified resident (at least my program is like that). I have also known very good applicants apply more than once but that is not common provided you are a good applicant with decent grades and very strong letters of recommendations (you need to be smart, hard working, self motivated and easy to get along with); some years there just are not many spots and some years they have a lot of really great applicants.

You do have to show an interest in clin path as well and probably need at least one letter from a clinical pathologist. My resident mates: one was a clin path lab tech, one hung around clin path as much as she could, one did many externships in clin path during elective rotations her last year at vet school and various universities and another did externships and tutored clin path as a student. None of them did internships, but there are clin path programs that recommend or require an internship or a year of practice. My program does not have that requirement. I had a very strong research background, but I don't think it helped me get a residency. It would have helped with a residency combined with a PhD program though.

My program does not accept international applicants which decreases the applicant pool significantly so we had 3 good applicants last year and I think a total of 5 qualified applicants if I remember. It is getting less competitive given the poor job market so people are not applying and also some of the applicants had graduated from vet school but weren't doing anything between vet school and applying for residency (6 months unaccounted for; volunteer if you must but do something!).

Each program is different in what they are looking for but I do think it is key to get good letters of recommendations no matter where you go. I really would go and talk to one of your clinical pathologists and see if they have any research going and see if you can participate. Working as a clin path tech is also a great idea but some programs hire before the first year of vet school. That way you would get research, clin path exposure and get a good letter of recommendation if you do a good job. If clin path doesn't have anything, ask them to recommend someone to talk to. You may not have elective classes in clin path, but you do have vacation time which you could use to get to know people in clin path as well. Do you have any electives you can set up yourself so you could set up some time on clinic duty in clin path? I know it can be scary to talk to clinicians, but clinical pathologists are really nice and helpful so don't be too scared.

The job market, while better than anatomic path, is rough. Most people I know who got jobs are going out of country and having a hard time making ends meet financially or they are staying in the US doing PhDs. This year the job market was much better and I hope it will continue to improve so I wouldn't worry about that too much right now since you have several years before you would finish.

I hope that answers all your questions. Good luck!

 

[vet2015]

Thank you for all the input, it's tremendously helpful and I really appreciate it. Second year just started and I'm really enjoying my path classes so far. I think the next step for me is to just get the guts to go talk to some of the clinical pathologists as you've both suggested. I really need to work on my networking skills...

Another question - do you have any kind of rough idea as to how many clinical path residencies also require the completion of a PhD? And the difference in length of a residency vs residency + PhD?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

In anatomic, getting a PhD is almost the norm now; not sure about clin path. Residency is three years. Residency plus PhD is at least 6, more like 7 years (assuming everything goes right in your research, which doesn't always happen).

 

[vet2015]

Hello again! Bumping this thread up with another question. I'm still seriously considering applying for a clin path residency, and was wondering if anybody knew if GRE scores are required/considered when applying. I ask because I never took the GRE (I was fortunate to get into vet school through an early acceptance program) and am wondering if I should be taking it this summer. I didn't think the GRE was required when applying through the match, but I know path residencies work outside that system. Thanks!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Hello again! Bumping this thread up with another question. I'm still seriously considering applying for a clin path residency, and was wondering if anybody knew if GRE scores are required/considered when applying. I ask because I never took the GRE (I was fortunate to get into vet school through an early acceptance program) and am wondering if I should be taking it this summer. I didn't think the GRE was required when applying through the match, but I know path residencies work outside that system. Thanks!

It depends on whether the program is combined or not. If it is combined, you will be applying to the graduate school as well as the residency, so they may make you take the GRE.If it is just a diagnostic residency, they may give you a pass.

Asking the programs directly might give you the best answer.

 

[all605]

It depends on whether the program is combined or not. If it is combined, you will be applying to the graduate school as well as the residency, so they may make you take the GRE.If it is just a diagnostic residency, they may give you a pass.

Asking the programs directly might give you the best answer.

Another question that I have, since you're always such a great source of info- when does the application cycle for path residencies generally begin?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Another question that I have, since you're always such a great source of info- when does the application cycle for path residencies generally begin?

D'aww

Path residencies don't go throught the match, so it can differ a little bit between schools. However, I think they have some sort of standardized form now, at least. But you will likely still be sending out individual application packets as far as I know.

The deadline for most applications is in early to mid December for a start date of July 1 of the next year.

However, I highly, HIGHLY (cannot stress this enough) encourage people to apply early. They usually have people picked out way before December - I got my offer literally the next day after the "application deadline" date - they only waited that long so they could say they waited until the deadline. Applying in August/September/October would be best.

Both anatomic and clinical pathology are also pretty small, tight-knit groups, so if you have any opportunity to visit at or rotate at a school - DO IT. Almost every single one of our accepted applicants are people who visited with us. Working well with others, despite the jokes about how pathologists are weirdos , is very important in residencies - we won't work with people we don't like, no matter how awesome their stats are.

 

[all605]

D'aww

Path residencies don't go throught the match, so it can differ a little bit between schools. However, I think they have some sort of standardized form now, at least. But you will likely still be sending out individual application packets as far as I know.

The deadline for most applications is in early to mid December for a start date of July 1 of the next year.

However, I highly, HIGHLY (cannot stress this enough) encourage people to apply early. They usually have people picked out way before December - I got my offer literally the next day after the "application deadline" date - they only waited that long so they could say they waited until the deadline. Applying in August/September/October would be best.

Both anatomic and clinical pathology are also pretty small, tight-knit groups, so if you have any opportunity to visit at or rotate at a school - DO IT. Almost every single one of our accepted applicants are people who visited with us. Working well with others, despite the jokes about how pathologists are weirdos , is very important in residencies - we won't work with people we don't like, no matter how awesome their stats are.

Thank you! Very helpful and good to know if I decide to go for it.

 

[vet2015]

It depends on whether the program is combined or not. If it is combined, you will be applying to the graduate school as well as the residency, so they may make you take the GRE.If it is just a diagnostic residency, they may give you a pass.

Asking the programs directly might give you the best answer.

Thank you! I think I'll end up forcing myself to take it to be on the safe side (as much as I would rather not ha)

 

[vet2015]

Bumping this thread up again! It seems that I do that on a yearly basis now. So I'm now in my 4th year, completely love clin path, and am about to start applying to programs. My question today is regarding recommendation letters. Most programs seem to want 3 letters and I'm trying to decide who to ask. I will of course be asking the clinical pathologist at my school that I've formed the best relationship with. I will probably also ask an anatomic pathologist I've gotten to know. As for the 3rd letter, I'm a bit torn between asking a clinician who can comment on how I've performed on 4th year clinics or asking a vet I worked with throughout college and on school breaks my first 2 years of vet school. I know that the vet I've worked with knows me way better and would be able to write a better overall letter. As for the clinician at school, she only would be able to comment on what she saw during the two weeks I was on her service. I just don't know how important it is to have a letter from a doctor who has seen how I do on clinics (I know that matters for internships, which is my plan B if I don't get a residency this year). I also don't know how it looks to have a letter from a vet that I haven't worked with in about 2 years.

Any thoughts/input would be much appreciated!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Hello again!

I say go with the one who knows you better. They will be better able to speak to your personality, how well you work with others, your long-term work ethic, etc. What rotation would this clinician be able to attest to? Unless it is pathology related, I don't think it would be a strong recommendation.

I do think personality and being able to interact well with others (or having others vouch that you can via LoRs) is a very underappreciated part of residency. For every person that came to interview at my program, the pathologists always asked us our opinions because they wanted to maintain a friendly work dynamic. There was even one person that the residents had to "veto" because while the person was stunning on paper they could not work well with others. A letter attesting to not only your skills but how good of a person you are will trump a generic "I knew this person for two weeks and they did ok" letter.

 

[vet2015]

Awesome, thank you for the input! Can I also ask you what your plan B was if you didn't get your residency right out of school?

 

[vetneuroperson]

I can give you an anatomic perspective.

I worked as an after-hours clinical pathology technician for a year and a half or so during veterinary school (similar to what elefante mentioned) so I would definitely look into that.

Sounds like you have a good direction with trying to up your path-related courses. Research is nice, and will help, but isn't 100% necessary IMO. If you can get it, great, but if you could do a path-related externship or electives, do that instead. However, before taking my word for it, I would ask the CP residents at your school.

In terms of job outlook, it's slightly better for CP people, we AP people basically HAVE to get a PhD in order to get most of the jobs out there (at teaching hospitals/universities - diagnostic lab jobs which don't care if you have a PhD or not are hard to come by in this economy). However, in all fields of pathology, getting a PhD as well as residency is pretty common.

With regards to grades.....I'm an anomaly, in that I got into a superb (not bragging - more extolling the virtues of my program, I love it) residency at a top-ranked school with just under a 3.0 GPA. However, I am not the norm - I had no way to improve my GPA in fourth year (where I really shined) because at my school it was all pass-fail, and I had metric ****loads of research experience, pathology externships, excellent LoRs, and all that. And yes, I got rejected because of my grades from some places, while others took more interest in my pathlogy-related experience and gave that more weight. So, while grades may not matter quite as much as an initial "weed-out" requirement, such as it is in the heavily recruited residencies such as surgery, they are still important.

Pathology also does not tend to care if you practiced or did an internship before starting. Since a lot of what we do is diagnostics and not tx/sx, an internship doesn'tprepare you for a path residency the same way it does for a surgery residency. It might look good, but I don't think it's super necessary.

Ah, a fellow sub 3.0-er. Welcome to the club