Charting Outcomes 2022 - Rad Onc

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New charting outcomes is out

Looks like word has reached current MD seniors, only about 80 total applied with first choice Rad Onc. There were only two people who didn't match, both with borderline failing boards.

Any warm body...

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Rad onc currently as is: the most uncompetitive undesirable field in medicine with terrible tired old “leadership”, filled with lords of hellpits who preside over vassal army of warm bodies. The hellpits quietly matched “anyone” and claimed victory. any questions??!!
 
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Just out of curiosity I looked up where the 2021 MDACC grads ended up.

Indianapolis, IN
Corvallis, OR
Kokomo, IN
Titusville, FL
Cedar City, UT
San Diego, CA
Boulder, CO

To be honest I was a bit underwhelmed. All community practices 1-2 hours from a major metro with the exception of SD. Any thoughts?
 
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Just out of curiosity I looked up where the 2021 MDACC grads ended up.

Indianapolis, IN
Corvallis, OR
Kokomo, IN
Titusville, FL
Cedar City, UT
San Diego, CA
Boulder, CO

To be honest I was a bit underwhelmed. All community practices 1-2 hours from a major metro with the exception of SD. Any thoughts?

I'm sure they are all incredibly happy with where they ended up.

were you expecting 7 people that all wanted to be in NYC?
 
3/7 are Mdacc affiliates - 1 doing admin work there.
1 Intermountain in Utah
1 coastal florida
1 at good private practice in Colorado
I don’t know the Oregon one

For 2022, it’s pretty good in my opinion.
 
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3/7 are Mdacc affiliates - 1 doing admin work there.
1 Intermountain in Utah
1 coastal florida
1 at good private practice in Colorado
I don’t know the Oregon one

For 2022, it’s not bad, in my opinion.
My impression is that they're generally happy. I won't lie, two of those jobs I know a little but about the structure and I would definitely sign in a heartbeat (well...except the locations aren't what I was looking for).
 
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Working with cancer patients requires some motivation to deal with emotionally difficult situations, especially as we encounter many patients towards or at the end of their life.

And our leadership has turned our field into such a laughingstock that we are now the refuge for people who couldn’t match any where else or those seeking visa’s. And immigration is wonderful, but I doubt the surge in international applicants is about a bounty of oncology compassion rather than a calculation about odds of coming to this country.

And both our field and cancer patients lose. Cheers to all the senior docs who make out like bandits, chairs and senior partners need to get there’s you know.
 
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Did the prior step scores of candidates guide our field in the right direction? 👀
 
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Just out of curiosity I looked up where the 2021 MDACC grads ended up.

Indianapolis, IN
Corvallis, OR
Kokomo, IN
Titusville, FL
Cedar City, UT
San Diego, CA
Boulder, CO

To be honest I was a bit underwhelmed. All community practices 1-2 hours from a major metro with the exception of SD. Any thoughts?
That's usually where the decent jobs were back in the day, esp if you wanted private with possible ownership. Now it's where the decent hospital jobs are i guess. I know at least 1-2 on that list are basically jobs that were created where someone senior was fired or left under not so great circumstances, but that also is a sign of the times with how jobs are created these days
 
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I don’t think the mismanagement of the prior generation justifies the matching of people currently with no interest in oncology, which can be seen in the soap and overall applicant data. Double loss maybe with the sandwich population in the middle pulling the weight.
 
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Just out of curiosity I looked up where the 2021 MDACC grads ended up.

Indianapolis, IN
Corvallis, OR
Kokomo, IN
Titusville, FL
Cedar City, UT
San Diego, CA
Boulder, CO

To be honest I was a bit underwhelmed. All community practices 1-2 hours from a major metro with the exception of SD. Any thoughts?

I mean they just didn’t publish enough articles in the red journal to deserve a job near civilization. This generation of rad oncs don’t know the meaning of hard work. This has to be why 😂
 
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This graph is wild. Gone are the days you need 250+ step score to match.
1658063867518.png
 
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Just out of curiosity I looked up where the 2021 MDACC grads ended up.

Indianapolis, IN
Corvallis, OR
Kokomo, IN
Titusville, FL
Cedar City, UT
San Diego, CA
Boulder, CO

To be honest I was a bit underwhelmed. All community practices 1-2 hours from a major metro with the exception of SD. Any thoughts?

Two of those I would consider "metro," San Deigo, CA and Indianapolis, IN. But many have a different definition of what constitutes a metro area. Probably would not consider "major" metro.

Boulder, CO has a population of 100,000. Lots would consider "rural." I've been there and its beautiful. Would live there in a heartbeat.

The other 5 have a population of 50K or less. I'd be happy to live in any of the "warm" locales... but many of those matching today aren't going to be pleased with that. THIS is where the need will be in the future. So if you want to live in one of those areas.... rad onc isn't such a bad choice.

I can guarantee many of the US MD graduates are well aware of how they will stack up against their fellow resident graduates. They are banking on being very "desirable" to employers simply based on comparison to the bottom of the barrel candidates graduating next to them.

Unfortunately, what they aren't banking on is the effect that those candidates will have on the compensation being offered. I was interviewing for a similar rural job that was offering well over MGMA compensation. It was very good pay for a very undesirable location. At least until an FMG accepted the position for $270K.

The few remaining private groups will discriminate... the hospital owned practices will take the foreign doc in a heartbeat because they will just fall in line. The academic practices will prefer the US MD graduate... but will still offer the new "fair market value."

But hey... that is still more than many primary care docs make. So we should just be happy.
 
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Two of those I would consider "metro," San Deigo, CA and Indianapolis, IN. But many have a different definition of what constitutes a metro area. Probably would not consider "major" metro.

Boulder, CO has a population of 100,000. Lots would consider "rural." I've been there and its beautiful. Would live there in a heartbeat.

The other 5 have a population of 50K or less. I'd be happy to live in any of the "warm" locales... but many of those matching today aren't going to be pleased with that. THIS is where the need will be in the future. So if you want to live in one of those areas.... rad onc isn't such a bad choice.

I can guarantee many of the US MD graduates are well aware of how they will stack up against their fellow resident graduates. They are banking on being very "desirable" to employers simply based on comparison to the bottom of the barrel candidates graduating next to them.

Unfortunately, what they aren't banking on is the effect that those candidates will have on the compensation being offered. I was interviewing for a similar rural job that was offering well over MGMA compensation. It was very good pay for a very undesirable location. At least until an FMG accepted the position for $270K.

The few remaining private groups will discriminate... the hospital owned practices will take the foreign doc in a heartbeat because they will just fall in line. The academic practices will prefer the US MD graduate... but will still offer the new "fair market value."

But hey... that is still more than many primary care docs make. So we should just be happy.
Didn't boulder decriminalize psilocybin? If you live there, you live everywhere all at once.
 
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This graph is wild. Gone are the days you need 250+ step score to match.
View attachment 357302

Imagine having a 200 step and the “leaders” are like “come on right in chap, take a seat”, and you have a 90%+ chance of matching. The field is going back to its roots, you know our current “leaders” were like these people
Which is why they dont see a problem with it
 
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The MDA graduates in 2021 did very well, in my opinion, relative to radiation oncology graduates from other programs.

Boulder, CO is better than metro area Denver, CO. Its desirability is reflected in its high cost of living. It’s gorgeous. Rocky Mountain Cancer Centers is also a desirable USO practice, I believe.

San Diego Scripps MDA is an awesome, gorgeous metro coastal location.

Indy is a good metro location with Lilly, Roche, and Salesforce offices. Good brunch places. Kokomo, IN is a 45 min commute from the affluent northern suburbs of Indy. That practice is also a desirable MDA affiliate.

Titusville, FL is a 45 min commute from Orlando. It’s on the beach. Watch out for Burmese pythons in the Everglades. Be very careful with your small animals and children.

As for Corvallis, OR and Cedar City, UT, I hope they’re being paid well.

Please keep in mind that the vast majority of 2021 graduates did not have the options, alumni/institutional network, or job placement quality of the MDA graduates.

It is a very different world from other specialties (medical oncology, radiology) where an average graduate from an average program can choose to go to a specific desirable metro.
 
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The MDA graduates in 2021 did very well, in my opinion, relative to radiation oncology graduates from other programs.
How many of these were de novo jobs or retirements vs existing practitioners/practices getting fired/replaced?

One of those jobs was definitely not a newly created job I'll tell you that much and I'm certain they saved money with the new hire
 
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How many of these were de novo jobs or retirements vs existing practitioners/practices getting fired/replaced?

One of those jobs was definitely not a newly created job I'll tell you that much and I'm certain they saved money with the new hire
So?
 
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So if an mdacc grad is getting some leftovers an hour outside of a decent MSA, what does the leave for the mid and low tier programs in the current climate and going forward?

Market has arguably been stronger the past year too on top of it post covid CF year

I guess @yesmaster is correct in that they probably did better than everyone else, but on an absolute basis, that isn't saying much.

Where are the partnership track jobs with technical? Seems like most were hospital-based and not in big cities. Moreover i would say that has zero bearing on how an MDACC grad in 2025+ will fare
 
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I dont understand the premise that these are not good jobs? What. Based on what?
 
So if an mdacc grad is getting some leftovers an hour outside of a decent MSA, what does the leave for the mid and low tier programs in the current climate and going forward?

Market has stronger the past year too on top of it

I guess @yesmaster is correct in that they probably did better than everyone else, but on an absolute basis, that isn't saying much.

Where are the partnership track jobs with technical? Seems like most were hospital-based and not in big cities. Moreover i would say that has zero bearing on how an MDACC grad in 2025+ will fare
I took a “leftover” job and am the happiest I’ve ever been in my career.
 
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Re: Cedar City - I’m pretty sure this young physician is a member of C of JC and it’s 1 hour from Zion. Southern Utah is incredible for mountain biking and hiking. In the last month, two friends went to vacation there. It is Intermountain and that is a great healthcare system. I don’t think this is something they reluctantly took.

Re: Florida - this doc is a good friend, a FL native and wanted to be in FL. Extremely happy.

I get it - we want to find misery in everything. This just isn’t that group.
 
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Getting paid less than the last guy after they canned him/her? I guess ignorance is bliss sometimes
Not all of us value a job solely based on the income compared to another persons income.

But, some do.

Also, circumstances can change. If I were to replace a 15 year seasoned doctor with a freshly graduated doc, I would be unlikely to pay them the same as the person prior.
 
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The MDA graduates in 2021 did very well, in my opinion, relative to radiation oncology graduates from other programs.

Boulder, CO is better than metro area Denver, CO. Its desirability is reflected in its high cost of living. It’s gorgeous. It occasionally combusts, which may be a downside. Rocky Mountain Cancer Center is also a desirable USO practice, I believe.

San Diego Scripps MDA is an awesome, gorgeous metro coastal location.

Indy is a good metro location with Lilly, Roche, and Salesforce offices. Good brunch places. Kokomo, IN is a 45 min commute from the affluent northern suburbs of Indy. That practice is also a desirable MDA affiliate.

Titusville, FL is a 45 min commute from Orlando. It’s on the beach. Watch out for Burmese pythons in the Everglades. Be very careful with your small animals and children.

As for Corvallis, OR and Cedar City, UT, I hope they’re being paid well.

Please keep in mind that the vast majority of 2021 graduates did not have the options, alumni/institutional network, or job placement quality of the MDA graduates.

It is a very different world from other specialties (medical oncology, radiology) where an average graduate from an average program can choose to go to a specific desirable metro.

The vast majority of grads haven't had job options for years. If this is the best all the networking/alumni and BS pubs gets you then I was wrong about the collective intelligence regarding the best and brightest RO has to offer.

Just so happy to be done but too proud to realize how replaceable and superfluous they really are.
 
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Not all of us value a job solely based on the income compared to another persons income.

But, some do.

Also, circumstances can change. If I were to replace a 15 year seasoned doctor with a freshly graduated doc, I would be unlikely to pay them the same as the person prior.
Or replacing former legacy contracted pp doc with a fresh grad hospital employed one... But to each their own. Some will see it as perfectly fine
 
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Not all of us value a job solely based on the income compared to another persons income.

But, some do.

Most do.

This would hold weight if anybody in Rad Onc had a choice...but they don't. You will be paid less. You have little to no latitude with respect to where you work, who you work for, and even how you will work. Even the well connected are starting to feel it now.
 
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Or replacing former legacy contracted pp doc with a fresh grad hospital employed one... But to each their own. Some will see it as perfectly fine

Powerless to change the situation. Too proud to admit they messed up. Let the cognitive dissonance rain!
 
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The vast majority of grads haven't had job options for years. If this is the best all the networking/alumni and BS pubs gets you then I was wrong about the collective intelligence regarding the best and brightest RO has to offer.

Just so happy to be done but too proud to realize how replaceable and superfluous they really are.
Or replacing former legacy contracted pp doc with a fresh grad hospital employed one... But to each their own. Some will see it as perfectly fine

But, your judgment clearly shows you don’t believe “to each their own”, right?
 
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Most do.

This would hold weight if anybody in Rad Onc had a choice...but they don't. You will be paid less. You have little to no latitude with respect to where you work, who you work for, and even how you will work. Even the well connected are starting to feel it now.

Most people compare their income to someone else’s to determine their value?

That’s too bad. I earn a lot less than many on this board, and I hold myself in quite high esteem.

I would consider using other measures (both internal and external, qualitative and quantitative) to determine self worth.
 
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I will add that MSKCC 2021 list looks decent:
MSKCC x3
DFCI
Rockefeller
Kaiser Permanente
NoVa PP

MSKCC is a peer institution, so it doesn’t seem all doom and gloom. Not sure about the HROP matches, but that would also be interesting to see.
 
More interesting is that not one of the MDACC grads chose academics
 
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It says something (hint: not good) about our field when we take the absolute top tier institutions and hem and haw about the quality of their residents' job prospects.

sorry but total false premise. This is ridiculous.

someone posted 7 cities and others are saying 'yeah hemming and hawing' or 'wow and if this is what the top place does' and all of a sudden this is supposed to mean something?

The only people that actually know people at these jobs say they're happy.

I could pick a random urology program that is 'highly ranked' and post the cities and it would be just as meaningless!

really dumb thread.
 
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it doesn’t surprise me as much as you folk they did not choose academics. They see what is like during residency and all decided it wasn’t for them. People are also seeing the decline of the field and choosing jobs with high income potential. Plus there is the family aspect too.
 
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sorry but total false premise. This is ridiculous.

someone posted 7 cities and others are saying 'yeah hemming and hawing' or 'wow and if this is what the top place does' and all of a sudden this is supposed to mean something?

The only people that actually know people at these jobs say they're happy.

I could pick a random urology program that is 'highly ranked' and post the cities and it would be just as meaningless!

really dumb thread.
i think the suggestion is that things aren't going well if we're using MDACC outcomes as our metric for the health of the job market. hopefully, there are 7 good jobs out there for new grads.
 
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it doesn’t surprise me as much as you folk they did not choose academics. They see what is like during residency and all decided it wasn’t for them. People are also seeing the decline of the field and choosing jobs with high income potential. Plus there is the family aspect too.
The surprise is that this place is 0/7 and looks like mskcc is 4/7 - as “peer institutions”.
 
It could be just a year by year sampling “error,” as in 2020 6/7 MDACC grads by my count went academic.
 
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It could be just a year by year sampling “error,” as in 2020 6/7 MDACC grads by my count went academic.
This is a good point. I don’t know much about their past classes, but I think one of them said this was unusual because it may not have happened in several years (ever?) to go 0/7
 
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it doesn’t surprise me as much as you folk they did not choose academics. They see what is like during residency and all decided it wasn’t for them. People are also seeing the decline of the field and choosing jobs with high income potential. Plus there is the family aspect too.

My year everyone expected half of us to go the academic way. I tried my hat at it and was promptly laughed out of the room by my own program no less.

The other 3 got offers from our home institution which they shared with me. The terms were so pathetic it was insulting. The competing academic offers were not much better.

3 including myself took a community job and the one who did academics quit after a year and also went to community.

Don’t worry though everyone still hates their job.
 
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My year everyone expected half of us to go the academic way. I tried my hat at it and was promptly laughed out of the room by my own program no less.

The other 3 got offers from our home institution which they shared with me. The terms were so pathetic it was insulting. The competing academic offers were not much better.

3 including myself took a community job and the one who did academics quit after a year and also went to community.

Don’t worry though everyone still hates their job.
Are you miserable in your community job? Why?
 
Most people compare their income to someone else’s to determine their value?

That’s too bad. I earn a lot less than many on this board, and I hold myself in quite high esteem.

I would consider using other measures (both internal and external, qualitative and quantitative) to determine self worth.
Do you have a job that you look forward to everyday?
-check

Do you have a job that allows you to provide for your family?
-check

Do you have a job that leaves you feeling intellectually fulfilled?
-check

Sure, I may have been making 100k more if things were going better in our field… but it isn’t crystal clear to me that I would be any happier if I were.
 
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Do you have a job that you look forward to everyday?
-check

Do you have a job that allows you to provide for your family?
-check

Do you have a job that leaves you feeling intellectually fulfilled?
-check

Sure, I may have been making 100k more if things were going better in our field… but it isn’t crystal clear to me that I would be any happier if I were.

Well said.

Re: the MDACC match list, I think at face value it doesn't look impressive but without knowing the priorities of the individuals and the terms of the jobs it's really hard to say whether this is a successful match or not. If some of these applicants took the jobs available in my region this year we'd be saying "only 3/7 of them wound up in a large metro area" but I can guarantee the jobs they have are better than the jobs around here.

I agree the most surprising thing about that match is the 0/7 academia. When I interviewed a decade ago programs would brag about how many of their graduates wound up in academics. Maybe now they just brag about how many of their graduates get jobs.
 
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Well said.

Re: the MDACC match list, I think at face value it doesn't look impressive but without knowing the priorities of the individuals and the terms of the jobs it's really hard to say whether this is a successful match or not. If some of these applicants took the jobs available in my region this year we'd be saying "only 3/7 of them wound up in a large metro area" but I can guarantee the jobs they have are better than the jobs around here.

I agree the most surprising thing about that match is the 0/7 academia. When I interviewed a decade ago programs would brag about how many of their graduates wound up in academics. Maybe now they just brag about how many of their graduates get jobs.
Impressive to me is …

Do these jobs align with the resident’s preferences ?

It appears they do, based on knowing most of them.

“Armchair” critiquing of someone else’s job - especially while many of them read this forum and typically appreciate it - not particularly kind. But, anonymity has its drawbacks. You can be quite mean (and wrong!) with no repercussions.
 
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Do you have a job that leaves you feeling intellectually fulfilled?
I envy you. Clearly you are somewhere, doing something that challenges you intellectually and feels progressive and important.

I have a good community job. I like seeing patients and there is some thought there. But for the last 10 years and for the foreseeable future, when someone asks me "What's new at work?", my reply has been and will be, "nothing". Sometimes I talk to them about advances in medical oncology.

We have gotten some new machines that make RTT's lives better. We hypofractionate more and SBRT a little more. We PCI less and treat post-op lung way less. Our hippocampal sparing plans (rarely used) are better now than 5 years ago. I read the big radonc papers (there are not many) and some medonc papers (these are innumerable).

We are in a field where progress is largely technical and hard to scale. In fact, given our single modality and diminishing indications, it is in the interest of larger centers to leverage anything incremental they have (protons, MRI_linac... and yes, I view these as incremental) to try to expand market share. I am also not a believer in the great value of ions or even marginal improvements in conformality at this point (happy to be proven wrong). To me, it is just not that stimulating a field to be in intellectually unless you are actively doing some sort of hard cancer research. (retrospective reviews, cost analysis and equity research would just not do the job for me). That the MDACC grads almost uniformly chose community careers makes me wonder if this is a common sentiment.

That we share cancer centers with docs that can't keep up with the standard of care (because the change is so dizzying) doesn't help. I was briefly excited that our role in metastatic disease was about to blossom, but the oligo trials have been tiny and the results spotty (less breast oligo SBRT than a year ago). Every new advance in systemic therapy re-contextualizes our role in ways that are largely out of our control and not immediately clear in terms of evidence based medicine. Usually it means less or deferred XRT and typically medoncs are making this decision.

The stats and numbers of applicants now are fine and leadership should just take what they get. By my reasoning, the following people should still be applying to radonc.

1. Real physics nerd types (may be you) who believe in ion therapy or flash and are really pretty facile with physics and can at least push the physics work forward some from a position of being a physician. (Probably 10-20 folks like this per year).

2. Truly elite wet lab folks with a strong track record of onc research preceding residency. (The Tim Chan model). Probably 10 folks like this per year. We were recruiting a lot of folks who looked like aspirants to this model ten years ago and many are underemployed now.

3. Average med students who like onc and hate inpatient call and can't stand the thought of doing a medicine residency. They are fine being third of three in importance regarding oncology and are fine not driving global clinical decision making. They are fine with declining reimbursement and limited geographic flexibility.

About 80 US grads applying sounds right.
 
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