Can MDs be trained to spay / neuter?

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fuzzball

fuzzball

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I don't even know if this would be legal, but I'm wondering if medical doctors (for humans) could be trained in spay and neuter surgery for cats and dogs? There just seems to so much need for free or low-cost surgeries in TNR programs--perhaps animal-friendly docs would volunteer to help out (I would, I think, if I were an MD and it was do-able and legal).

Is that just a stupid thought? Anybody know?
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I'm sure they could be trained -- and some would do an amazing job... however, that would be practicing veterinary medicine without a license in most states/settings... with a few exceptions.
 
I did plenty of spays (ovariectomies) on mice in grad school. Like probably nearly a thousand. It was certainly legal because it was part of a protocol in a university research setting. It would be easy enough to teach an MD, even a GP/FP doc who hadn't touched a scalpel since their internship. :D Heck, down on the farm, all sorts of food animals are still castrated by non-vets all the time (obviously, this would be harder to do on bitches and queens, but anywho). I personally wouldn't have an issue with it if they wanted to do some pro bono work. I'm not sure how many would though.
 
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Oh yes, I am sure MDs would make great speuterers (I guess that is my new word of the day). But again, its practicing veterinary medicine without a license. I wish ya'all could help! Darn red tape.

This reminds me of the thread we had awhile ago about what kind of emergency human med a vet could do and not get in trouble. There was the example an accidnet or emergency, I can't remember exactly what....the EMT guy being unable to get a catheter in and asking the vet to do it...of course, a vet can place a catheter. But legally he can't, even in a serious situation like that, because it would be practicing human medicine without a license. Even in life threatening situations, a vet cannot do more than any normal civilian, despite their knowledge of medicine, simply because they are licensed only as animal doctors, not human doctors.
 
Interesting. I was curious because I happen to be dealing with a feral cat colony at the moment and it sure is hard to get any free or cheap sterilizations done. Wait, that's an understatement. It's darn near impossible. It seems like the boys could be snipped pretty easily. Maybe there should be a special license for just that.
 
there is just no real incentive for MDs to do this. I do, however, have two stories about this. I grew up in Haiti (no vets), so my dad (a MD) neutered our dog with a razor blade. Why did he use a razor blade you ask? story number two elucidates: The hospital my dad worked at got a new (foreign/white) admin who was cocky and pissed a lot of Haitians and my dad off. He borrowed instruments from surgery to castrate his dog. After people found this out he had to leave for fear of his life because of the nature of the cultural insult (dogs are considered scrap eating dirty animals).
 
You could train anyone with at least average motor skills to do spays/neuters, or most other surgeries for that matter, human or veterinary.

Whether it would be legal with depend on the specific circumstances and the particular state's practice act.
 
Even if it wasn't against the law - practicing veterinary medicine without a license - I would think a lot of things could go wrong. Especially with a spay. If you aren't familiar with the anatomy, the anomolies, don't know the closing layers of the body wall, don't know about risks like stump pyos, don't know where you'd start to look if you drop a pedicle, don't know how to place subcuticular sutures because the cat will chew out her skin sutures, don't realize you're leaving remnants of the ovary in, oh I don't know. I'm not familiar with the training MDs get, maybe they know about those things. And it's not like all veterinarians are great at surgery, but at least vets have gotten the training they need, and should know who/where to go to for help should they need it.

We have several local cat rescues in town that have collaborations with near by clinics - I volunteer at one. The clinic donates the space, students donate their time, someone else donates materials, and the rescue gets it done for free.
 
fuzzball said:
I don't even know if this would be legal, but I'm wondering if medical doctors (for humans) could be trained in spay and neuter surgery for cats and dogs? There just seems to so much need for free or low-cost surgeries in TNR programs--perhaps animal-friendly docs would volunteer to help out (I would, I think, if I were an MD and it was do-able and legal).

Is that just a stupid thought? Anybody know?
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Let me turn this question around: I don't even know if this would be legal, but I'm wondering if veterinarians (for animals) could be trained to perform ovarihysterectomies, castrations, etc in people. There seems to be so much need for cheaper or low-cost surgery for people who can't afford health insurance. I'm sure some people-friendly vets would volunteer to help out (I would, I think).

Does the question sound a bit different now?

:) Don't mean to be snotty, but trying to make a point. Then again, perhaps I've seen too many MD clients who try to treat their pets as though they were four-legged, hirsute humans...
 
alliecat44 said:
Let me turn this question around: I don't even know if this would be legal, but I'm wondering if veterinarians (for animals) could be trained to perform ovarihysterectomies, castrations, etc in people. There seems to be so much need for cheaper or low-cost surgery for people who can't afford health insurance. I'm sure some people-friendly vets would volunteer to help out (I would, I think).

Does the question sound a bit different now?

:) Don't mean to be snotty, but trying to make a point. Then again, perhaps I've seen too many MD clients who try to treat their pets as though they were four-legged, hirsute humans...
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:love: Thanks for already posting this for me. :D
 
Legal issue aside... A monkey could be trained to do spays and neuters. These procedures are straight forward, and when done properly carry a low incidence of complications. MDs could very easily perform spays and neuters as competently as DVMs - if you can do OVH's in humans, you surely can do them in dogs and cats.
 
julieDVM said:
Legal issue aside... A monkey could be trained to do spays and neuters. These procedures are straight forward, and when done properly carry a low incidence of complications. MDs could very easily perform spays and neuters as competently as DVMs - if you can do OVH's in humans, you surely can do them in dogs and cats.
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The thing is the most MDs don't do OVH's on people. A very small subset of MDs do surgery. I think that maybe some of the vets on here are so used to and proficient at spays/neuters that they are undervaluing their own skills.
 
*insult legal disclaimer about not practicing veterinary medicine, blah blah blah*

Yes, but we taught the undergrads in our research lab how to ovex and OVH mice and how to suture. It really doesn't take great technical skill. If you can do a little mouse and get a good survival rate (their anesthesia is quite a bit trickier too), it's not a great leap to do a much larger dog or cat. It took me 7-10 minutes from the time of injecting the anesthesia, shaving and prepping, ovex or OVH, and clipping or suturing back up per mouse all by myself. Most of the vets I shadowed could do a neuter or spay in 5 to 10 minutes start to finish with the patient on the table ready to go. It's just repetition once you know the steps, let alone someone who does it all day long in a shelter or low cost spay/neuter clinic. That's why for a very long time, surgeons and doctors were not necessarily the same profession. A neuter or spay is not real complicated. I think most MDs could handle it with a bit of brushing up. ;)
 
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ri23 said:
The thing is the most MDs don't do OVH's on people. A very small subset of MDs do surgery. I think that maybe some of the vets on here are so used to and proficient at spays/neuters that they are undervaluing their own skills.
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I agree many MDs do not do surgery - but I still think that given a little training, they easily could, regardless of their background. Spays and neuters are definitely not complicated, nor technically difficult, procedures to perform.
 
I kind of think the real question is: what person would go all the way through medical school and residency, but choose to be a volunteer veterinarian in their spare time?

To the OP: if you think you're going to do this, maybe you should just become a veterinarian. If you're so attracted to animal medicine that you want to do it in your spare time, after working all day in a hospital, why not just make your hobby your career and do it all the time?

I've met a couple physicians who openly admit that they wanted to go to veterinary school, but went to medical school because it was more prestigious/pleasing-to-parents. Those people are miserable...

Personally, I think that few people are really well suited to do both. It seems like you either like animals, or you like people, or neither... If you like animals, you become a veterinarian, the other two go to medical school.
 
alliecat44 said:
:) Don't mean to be snotty, but trying to make a point. Then again, perhaps I've seen too many MD clients who try to treat their pets as though they were four-legged, hirsute humans...
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And then, I bet a lot of vets are treating themselves as large hairless dogs, with the regular self-medicating :laugh:
 
alliecat44 said:
Then again, perhaps I've seen too many MD clients who try to treat their pets as though they were four-legged, hirsute humans...
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Gotta love those people. We once had a client bring in her dog who had been in a dog fight. The dog had a number of puncture wounds with huge pockets, obviously in need of a drain. But, of course, this woman was a nurse, and told us that she really just came in to get suture material so she could stitch it up herself, because, obviously, human nurses are well qualified to do such a thing...
 
Hollycozza said:
And then, I bet a lot of vets are treating themselves as large hairless dogs, with the regular self-medicating :laugh:
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Too true, Holly--and I'm not saying that's right, either. However, I don't think I've ever met a VET who thought it was okay for him/her to do SURGERY on a person.

I find it more than a bit condescending when MDs (or RNs!) try to perform procedures, just like the story above. Somehow it's worse than a layperson--an MD should know better!!!

If you want to be an MD, go to medical school.
If you want to be a veterinarian, go to veterinary school.
 
Um... I love how so many people are saying that spays are SOOO easy... ANYBODY could do it... you could train a monkey to do a spay.
er- really? Like Goldensforever said- you gotta know your stuff. An aggressive move with a spay hook and you've got yourself a lacterated ureter. It took me nearly an hour to do my first spay. I'm pretty sure you couldn't take a bum and teach him how to (safely) spay.
Just thought I'd give my opinion.
 
alliecat44 said:
I find it more than a bit condescending when MDs (or RNs!) try to perform procedures, just like the story above. Somehow it's worse than a layperson--an MD should know better!!!

If you want to be an MD, go to medical school.
If you want to be a veterinarian, go to veterinary school.
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Vets are so hypersensitive when they think someone is infringing on their 'turf,' especially when it comes to MDs or RNs wanting to participate in their pets medical care.... maybe its that global DVM inferiority complex thing.......
 
Of course you can teach an M.D. how to do a spay, just like you can teach a vet student to do a spay. To be able to do it as competently as a vet though, it's going to take a while. I would think a doctor has better things to do. I mean, I know you like animals and you want to help them, but we already have animal shelters that do that stuff for the stray cats and dogs. If you're an M.D. , you should be volunteering your time to help out needy humans.

Also, yes , that is infringing on our turf. How would M.D.s like it if I said that I want to volunteer to perform operations on people that can't afford health insurance? Oh I'll just do the easy ones, what can go wrong?
 
thereservoirdog said:
Of course you can teach an M.D. how to do a spay, just like you can teach a vet student to do a spay. To be able to do it as competently as a vet though, it's going to take a while. I would think a doctor has better things to do.

And yes , that is infringing on our turf. How would M.D.s like it if I said that I want to volunteer to perform operations on people that can't afford health insurance? Oh I'll just do the easy ones, what can go wrong?
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THANK YOU.

I was just reading in VIN about a case where a vet apparently ligated both ureters in a chihuahua and the dog had bilateral stents placed by a specialist.

"What can go wrong?" indeed.

No "inferiority complex" here (veterinarians are, after all, more respected by society than MDs)--I am merely aware that a medical (or veterinary) license doesn't make me God. Just because I'm licensed to practice in one area does not make me omnipotent. It makes me a more educated consumer when it comes to my own health, but that's about it.

How arrogant to think otherwise.
 
Given the fact that I can crack a chest in a human, take out their defective heart and put in a new one - I'd argue that I can handle a spay.... That isn't to say that I am going to go and do one - just making the point that I'm pretty sure i (and many other MDs), given a little review of the anatomy and important structures, am easily as competent to do one as many DVMs.

Incidentally, if a GYN surgeon ligated a patients ureters when doing a hysterectomy, they'd be losing their license. I sure hope that vet does too.
 
gregMD said:
Given the fact that I can crack a chest in a human, take out their defective heart and put in a new one - I'd argue that I can handle a spay.... That isn't to say that I am going to go and do one - just making the point that I'm pretty sure i (and many other MDs), given a little review of the anatomy and important structures, am easily as competent to do one as many DVMs.

Incidentally, if a GYN surgeon ligated a patients ureters when doing a hysterectomy, they'd be losing their license. I sure hope that vet does too.
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I think the question as to whether an MD CAN be trained to do a spay/neuter has been answered. Of course they can. As mentioned before, you can train a monkey or a vet student--or an MD--regardless of their surgical experience.

I think the question I've been trying to answer is more "SHOULD an MD be trained to spay/neuter?" Greg, nobody is questioning your surgical acumen. However, just because you--or an MD, or a person off the street--CAN be trained to spay/neuter, SHOULD they?

My board-certified surgeon friends crack the chests of dogs and cats all the time, and perform craniotomies to boot. CAN they be trained to do surgeries on humans? Sure. However, I doubt that anyone would argue that they SHOULD. The same principle holds true for MDs and veterinary surgeries. And, yes, it's arrogant to think that it only works one way.

(and btw, I agree that the example I cited above regarding the ureters constitutes malmpractice--it was brought up to illustrate the point that straightforward procedures can be complex if not approached seriously.)
 
I would say that an MD could certainly learn to do a routine spay/neuter, but that vets learn how to handle an abnormal spay/neuter. What do you do with abnormal anatomy? What drugs are safe for anesthesia? What do you do if you rupture the spleen? What are typical signs that the animal is or is not recovering from anesthesia well? Etc...

MDs will not be aware of all those species idiosyncrasies that are a major part of going to vet school. They can learn those too, but if they want to start getting that far into vet med, why not just go for a DVM in the first place?
 
sofficat said:
Um... I love how so many people are saying that spays are SOOO easy... ANYBODY could do it... you could train a monkey to do a spay.
er- really? Like Goldensforever said- you gotta know your stuff. An aggressive move with a spay hook and you've got yourself a lacterated ureter. It took me nearly an hour to do my first spay. I'm pretty sure you couldn't take a bum and teach him how to (safely) spay.
Just thought I'd give my opinion.
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On the first day of classes this semester my intro to surgery teacher said you could take any bum of the street and teach him how to do a spay and neuter and they'd be pretty good at it BUT if anything went wrong they wouldn't know what to do. He said they'd be going through the motions but not understanding the theory. His point: You need to know the why and how to be a good surgeon. By the way, he also says a finger is better than a spay hook because you can feel what's going on.

Side note: My friend did her residency in (human) internal medicine and she said if someone codes in surgery it's the internal medicine doctors that run the code, the surgeons don't do it. Crazy.
 
sms25 said:
On the first day of classes this semester my intro to surgery teacher said you could take any bum of the street and teach him how to do a spay and neuter and they'd be pretty good at it BUT if anything went wrong they wouldn't know what to do. He said they'd be going through the motions but not understanding the theory. His point: You need to know the why and how to be a good surgeon.
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I'd say that's pretty true. When doing a mouse ovex or OVH in undergrad or grad school, I knew that you cut through some mammary gland on the side doing the ovex, you cut through some ligament or another at the top of the ovary on both sides, make sure your uterine horns are free, and that you cut at the base where the body of the uterus meets the cervix, ligate/cauterize if you need to, and pull everything out, but I didn't know too many of the specifics. We didn't know the name of the broad ligament of the uterus or the suspensory ligament, we just knew they were there and they were more vascularized during estrus. So I dunno, it was enough to get the job done, but if my faculty adviser would have come to watch and quizzed me, I wouldn't have known what they were except in abstract terms. *shrug*
 
alliecat44 said:
I think the question as to whether an MD CAN be trained to do a spay/neuter has been answered. Of course they can. As mentioned before, you can train a monkey or a vet student--or an MD--regardless of their surgical experience.

I think the question I've been trying to answer is more "SHOULD an MD be trained to spay/neuter?" Greg, nobody is questioning your surgical acumen. However, just because you--or an MD, or a person off the street--CAN be trained to spay/neuter, SHOULD they?

My board-certified surgeon friends crack the chests of dogs and cats all the time, and perform craniotomies to boot. CAN they be trained to do surgeries on humans? Sure. However, I doubt that anyone would argue that they SHOULD. The same principle holds true for MDs and veterinary surgeries. And, yes, it's arrogant to think that it only works one way.

(and btw, I agree that the example I cited above regarding the ureters constitutes malmpractice--it was brought up to illustrate the point that straightforward procedures can be complex if not approached seriously.)
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I wasn't arguing that I should... i was simply saying I could, as could many people. Surgery typically isn't a difficult thing (aside from things like micrvascular surgery, or other technically demanding things). I'm sure many DVMs could do procedures on humans quite proficiently.
 
StealthDog said:
I would say that an MD could certainly learn to do a routine spay/neuter, but that vets learn how to handle an abnormal spay/neuter. What do you do with abnormal anatomy? What drugs are safe for anesthesia? What do you do if you rupture the spleen? What are typical signs that the animal is or is not recovering from anesthesia well? Etc...

MDs will not be aware of all those species idiosyncrasies that are a major part of going to vet school. They can learn those too, but if they want to start getting that far into vet med, why not just go for a DVM in the first place?
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I would argue that any surgeon (both human and animal) would be able to deal with things like anatomical variation, hemorrhage, or any of the myriad of intraoperative complications you could potentially see. I wasn't arguing about anesthesia, as even in people, i leave that to the gas passers. I was restricting my comments strictly to the surgery. Incidentally, if a patient codes on the table, (depending on the scenario, and procedure being performed) the primary surgeon runs the code, and often he/she turns things over to anesthesia and they run the code, not internal medicine.
 
gregMD said:
I wasn't arguing that I should... i was simply saying I could, as could many people. Surgery typically isn't a difficult thing (aside from things like micrvascular surgery, or other technically demanding things). I'm sure many DVMs could do procedures on humans quite proficiently.
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And yet if a vet student asked whether they could be trained to do surgery on a person over on the allo board, they'd get their proverbial face ripped off. Good lord.

Incidentally, greg, get to know any current fourth-years at your med school (not sure where you're doing your residency)? My best friend from high school graduates this spring (and went there undergrad, too). If you do, PM me and I'll give you her name. Small world...
 
And yet if a vet student asked whether they could be trained to do surgery on a person over on the allo board, they'd get their proverbial face ripped off.

Anyone wanna try it? :pWe should do it and takes bets as to the severity of the response. How dare you animal people think you can do surgery on people! Go back to vaccinating Fluffy! :laugh: Anything to take my mind off of my Musculoskeletal exam tomorrow.
 
I wasn't arguing about anesthesia, as even in people, i leave that to the gas passers.
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I know we aren't really taking all practical matters into account anymore (since we've dropped the legality issue entirely), but if you really did want to rope MDs into helping out in a trap-neuter-release program or a low-cost speuter scenario, you most certainly wouldn't have anyone else to run your anesthesia. Lots of clinics leave it up to vet techs, but since the vet is still ultimately responsible if the patient suffers an anesthetic-related death, the vet can never be completely hands-off with anesthesia. Unless, of course, you work in the handful of vet clinics that has a board-certified anesthesiologist on staff (which would be awesome, but expensive).

I agree that medicine is medicine, and tissue is tissue, but I still say that people trained in the unique anatomy and physiology of each species would be far better equipped to handle the rare complications. If you were utilizing MDs to help out in a low-resource situation like TNR, this probably isn't a huge issue, but when operating on beloved Fifi, she will of course be the one with wacky anatomy and a bizarre intolerance of isoflurane.
 
:laugh: I think an inferiority complex looks more like:

gregMD said:
Given the fact that I can crack a chest in a human, take out their defective heart and put in a new one - I'd argue that I can handle a spay....
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btw, thanks to WhtstheFrequency and StealthDog over there--but you gave up the game too early! D'oh! :) Interesting response, though.

Just proves we vet folks are a nicer bunch. :)
 
btw, thanks to WhtstheFrequency and StealthDog over there--but you gave up the game too early

You wanted to see how mean they would get without an explanation? Haha...sorry, I guess that would have been amusing too.
 
haha... you know you might have even more fun if you post it on the pre-allo forum instead of the allo forum, especially since you got bumped down into the Sx folder by the mod over there...

except i should say (as a mod) that sdn doesnt allow the same post in more than one forum... (just to cover my tail :))
 
Backup coming--sorry; had to actually pay attention in neuro. :)

Thanks, Cyrille!

SHEESH--how come they moved it?? I swear. I like how they're just like, "la di da"...on the original one that I posted, did you catch the guy who said that if he had appendicitis on a desert island, he'd rather be stranded with "a good bartender" rather than a DVM willing perform surgery?

Nice. Feeling like Rodney Dangerfield, anyone? :)
 
WhtsThFrequency said:
*Mission Impossible music playing* shouldn't we all be studying instead? ;) This is such an awful display of "toomuchtimeonourhands-itis" - I love it.
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I like the idea of the music.

I also like the idea that I'm not the only total nerd with no life who is giggling right now. :)
 
MDs are so hypersensitive when they think someone is infringing on their 'turf,' especially when it comes to DVMs or LVTs wanting to participate in their own medical care.... maybe its that global MD inferiority complex thing.......


:lol::lol:
 
WhtsThFrequency said:
Oh yes, I am sure MDs would make great speuterers
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:laugh: I can not wait to use this word in a fit of sleep-deprived annoyance. "You speuterer!"
No offense to the actual speuterers out there. I love my three cats and the vets who treat them.
And as a current med student, I would be apprehensive about letting an MD touch my pets--i prefer they be handled by caring individuals. (just kidding....sort of...):)
 
Posting the question on two separate forums, might be considered cross-posting, which isn't allowed on SDN. Posting a topic in order incite inflammatory responses, which you discussed in this forum, could be considered trolling, which also isn't allowed on SDN.

Mad respect for the DVMs ... but if you keep it up the threads will be closed.

murphykenya400x400.jpg
 
Not trying to incite inflammatory responses--whether or not the responses are inflammatory are up to the posters.

This is merely trying to see if/how the response would be different if the original question were turned on its ear.

The MD folks are free to hang themselves (post inflammatory responses) as they see fit.

Just an experiemnt...scientific method, if you will. :)
 
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