Can female medical student / physicians have option to refuse examining male pat

[shjaffri]

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[lansky]

My co- worker was telling me about her orthodox Jewish female physician who only sees female patients because according to her religion she is not allowed to be dealing with male patients. But I live in Canada so it might be slightly different here.

 

[southerndoc]

I doubt you can refuse to see/examine male patients. You *might* can get away with no genital exams, but to not see/examine male patients entirely would place an undue burden on your colleagues.

If you cannot examine male patients, then it's likely you should look into another career or at the very least a specialty that doesn't have male patient contact (OB/gyn or pathology come to mind).

 

[EUA]

I would think that refusing to see a patient based on his gender is rather unethical and goes against basic professional medical values. Someone with this issue is probably best finding another line of work, because trying to refuse to see all male patients throughout medical school -- even assuming a future "penis free" specialty like OB or path -- isn't going to fly very well.

 

[RTrain]

I would think that refusing to see a patient based on his gender is rather unethical and goes against basic professional medical values. Someone with this issue is probably best finding another line of work, because trying to refuse to see all male patients throughout medical school -- even assuming a future "penis free" specialty like OB or path -- isn't going to fly very well.

I agree. I actually find this rather galling. I have no problem whatsoever with patients who do not wish to be examined by a physician of the opposite sex due to religious reasons, or whatever really, even though it's inconvenient. A physician, however, who refuses to provide equitable care on such grounds should not work in the United States. I think it is just as unacceptable as a physician who refuses to examine an African-American patient "on moral grounds."

 

[pillowhead]

Yes, this will end your career as a medical student in the US. More specifically, your medical career will never begin in the US if you refuse to see half of the patient population. This type of extreme sexual segregation will simply be neither practical nor tolerated. I know of a handful of orthodox jewish women and muslim women in training at my residency program who wear hijab or cover themselves in a much more modest manner than the rest of us. This type of "religious, moral, cultural, and ethical" type of behaviour is widely accepted (as it should be in a pluralisitic society). What you're asking for is far beyond what 99.9% of americans would see as being acceptable to ask for in the name of tolerance.

 

[Kubed]

I’m curious who has religious or ethical objections and what they are. My med school is a private jewish school, we have an orthodox rabbi, there are jewish orthodox men and women in the classes, as well as muslim students, and I’ve never heard of anything like this. I’ve had plenty of encounters with muslim women who didn’t wish to shake hands, etc, but this goes far beyond anything I’ve encountered.

 

[southerndoc]

I've had female patients refuse pelvic exams based on religious reasons. If there is a female physician or PA/NP in the department, I ask if they will do it. However, I've had one time where the whole ED was staffed with only male physicians and PA's. The patient refused the pelvic exam, so I told her that the workup was limited and that she would need to go to another hospital to have a complete workup. I made her sign an AMA statement, which offended her. I'm not risking being sued because someone refused something I thought was medically necessary. I respect her religious views, but if she exercises her religious beliefs, I'm going to exercise my anti-litigation beliefs.

 

[michaelrack]

Can someone help me answer these questions?


Scenario 1: In residency program, where you will be graded or evaluated for.

Scenario 2: In hospitals or in private practice?

Can you say sorry that I can't accept male patients?

not possible in med school or residency (except as others have mentioned, ob/gyn or pathology residencies).

It is possible in private practice, though it is better to frame it as having a practice centered on "women's health" rather than refusing to take male patients. It would be quite possible to be a private psychiatrist focusing on women's mental health issues or an internist focusing on women's health.

 

[MSHell]

Rads, rad onc (i think) are also fine.

What about ophtho, ENT, NSurg, neurology...? there is obviously some physical exam, but nothing genital.

But being completely against touching patients of one gender will make medical education almost impossible.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Rads, rad onc (i think) are also fine.

I suspect she would have problems placing prostatic seed implants for brachtherapy as a radiation oncologist.

Radiologists also perform procedures and it may entail doing something "down there".

What about ophtho, ENT, NSurg, neurology...? there is obviously some physical exam, but nothing genital.

NSurg and Neurology would still have to be able to assess genital and rectal function in certain injuries.

 

[MSHell]

What about pediatrics, something like neonatology? Is it only the adult male body the OP has these ethical and moral issues with?

Thanks WS, I totally forgot about brachytherapy (the coolest part too!). But I still stand by rads. If a femoral line is too "down there", well then, I just don't know.

 

[LADoc00]

You would be fired on day 1...

There is no exceptions on the West Coast for Orthodox Jews, (even at Cedars) I am aware of.

Answer: No, it is disallowed usually by state laws. Medicine is pretty much exempt from the "We reserve the right to refuse service" attitude.

My advice is head to the Middle East if you are so inclined. Dubai, the Kingdom and Kuwait would all be top notch spots.

 

[jsmall]

I doubt you can refuse to see/examine male patients. You *might* can get away with no genital exams, but to not see/examine male patients entirely would place an undue burden on your colleagues.

If you cannot examine male patients, then it's likely you should look into another career or at the very least a specialty that doesn't have male patient contact (OB/gyn or pathology come to mind).

Have you heard of Muslim students exempt from genital exams? I agree that seems like something that might be accommodated. It sure is less extreme than this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article2603966.ece

 

[colbgw02]

Radiologists also perform procedures and it may entail doing something "down there".

Definitely. We routinely catheterize the cervix for sonohysterograms and hysterosalpingograms. The bladder has to be catheterized for cystograms (CT or otherwise) and rectal tubes get placed for enemas If we're really (un)lucky, then we'll placed a transrectal drainage catheter for a pelvic abscess.

Like with many specialties, you can tailor your practice accordingly once you're done with training. Until then, don't expect to hide from the perineum in radiology.

 

[Tiki]

Even pathology might be off limits. I just grossed in a penile mass on Friday. Does the male body part have to be attached?

 

[J ROD]

I respect her religious views, but if she exercises her religious beliefs, I'm going to exercise my anti-litigation beliefs.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

You would be fired on day 1...

There is no exceptions on the West Coast for Orthodox Jews, (even at Cedars) I am aware of.

As was stated earlier, this issue is not relevant to Orthodox Jews.

 

[gschl1234]

Even pathology might be off limits. I just grossed in a penile mass on Friday. Does the male body part have to be attached?

Not to mention all the testicles we take out for autopsy.
And you have to see actual live patients for transfusion medicine and cytopath.

For rads you have to do an intership so that would be out. For GYN, don't they usually do internship as well and rotate thru medicine, er, surgery etc...so that would also be out.

A research only career would be possible. No residency. Do a post-doc.

 

[ShyRem]

obgyn -- what if the baby is a boy?

 

[Rendar5]

*is amused by people responding to comments made 2 years ago by someone who's not htere to answer them lol*

 

[ShyRem]

Agreed, but the question is still interesting and fun to debate.

 

[lipomas]

If I was in clinical medicine, could I refuse to examine the unkempt and smelly patients? That would most certainly offend me and my sensibilities. I do not say so to make light of one's religious practices and feelings, but at some point "freedom of religion" also includes the freedom to be able to be free of the restrictive practice of other religions. Thus, I would be quite right to be angry if, as a patient, I went to a hospital and a physician refused to see me because I am a male.

You could likely open up your own practice where you can see whoever you want. But in training, you have to train like everyone else, within reason. Refusing to see 50% of the population is inappropriate for training purposes. Although, I suspect that there are some shady institutions (probably off shore) who would try to accomodate that wish, for a "small" fee.

 

[jsmall]

Even pathology might be off limits. I just grossed in a penile mass on Friday. Does the male body part have to be attached?

They could go into clinical, and not anatomical, pathology. That would be exclusively laboratory based medicine correct? Just saying...

 

[Coastie]

obgyn -- what if the baby is a boy?

well-played.

 

[docbill]

You would be fired on day 1...

There is no exceptions on the West Coast for Orthodox Jews, (even at Cedars) I am aware of.

Answer: No, it is disallowed usually by state laws. Medicine is pretty much exempt from the "We reserve the right to refuse service" attitude.

My advice is head to the Middle East if you are so inclined. Dubai, the Kingdom and Kuwait would all be top notch spots.

I would go even further and say don't bother coming to the western world if that is what you want to do. As a member of a minority, I have no understanding for people who want to immigrate to the western world and yet practice their own conservative (bordering ignorant and repressive) views, including wearing burkas or covering their face completely. In many Arabic countries it is common to see women treating men and vise versa. I suspect the OP is from Pakistan.

 

[docbill]

obgyn -- what if the baby is a boy?

Boys would be okay. As long as the testosterone level is below puberty levels.

But then I wonder if one can refuse to treat gays, lesbians, masculine women and vise versa, poor people, ugly people, fat people. Doesn't leave much after that does it. Easier to say people who have problems treating other people should not be doctors in the western world.

 

[michaelrack]

xxx

 

[BenCarson]

Read this QA to see what the Islamic stand is on this issue. Remember guys in Islam it's very simple, every action that saves the life of a human being is encouraged and allowed. Of course often you come across some fundamentalists that actually have no idea about their own religion and say whatever they are told by some sick and uneducated leaders in their own communities.


Question by a Muslim Medical student:
Assalamu`alykum. I am a medical student. We, students of medicine, have to examine women in pregnancy, delivery and with diseases particular to women. In such cases we examine women partially dressed. Although our primary motive is learning, sometimes we get slightly aroused to the extent that sexual secretions [not semen] are released. Some people say that we Muslims have to carry out this task arguing that if we refuse to practice it, then who will do so?

However, my opinion is that women should examine women and men should examine men. So what shall I do? Do I continue studying medicine and examine females? Jazakum Allahu khayran.

Answer by the Islamic Scholars:

Wa`Alaykum As-Salam wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

​

Dear questioner! Thank you very much for the interest you show in understanding the teachings of Islam and having confidence in our site. May Allah help us meet your expectations and fulfill this task efficiently.

In his response to the question, Sheikh 'Atiyyah Saqr, former head of Al-Azhar Fatwa Committee, states the following:

"First of all, it is not allowed for a Muslim woman to uncover any part of her body, with the exception of her face and hands, in front of a non-mahram man, whether he is a Muslim or a non-Muslim.

However, when it comes to medicine, the issue is different. The majority of Muslim jurists maintain that when a Muslim woman becomes ill and is compelled to go to a doctor, she should first of all go to a Muslim woman doctor to treat her. However, if there is no female Muslim doctor, she should go to a female non-Muslim doctor.

On the other hand, if there is no female non-Muslim doctor to treat her, she may go to an honest male Muslim doctor. If there is no male Muslim doctor to treat her, she is allowed to go to a male non-Muslim doctor, but this should be the last resort.

As far as treating women is concerned, doctors are not allowed to uncover any part of the woman’s body unless it is necessary. This may simply explain the reason why Islam gives women priority to treat women and not vice versa.

Also, we have to bear in mind that, the issue of treating women is bound by necessity. Men are only allowed to treat women within certain confined limits."


Shedding more light on the issue, Dr. Husam Ad-Din ibn Musa `Afana, professor of the Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence at the University of Jerusalem, states the following:


“ It is to be noted above all that Islam encourages covering one’s `Awrah (private parts) except in some exceptional cases that necessitate uncovering the `Awrah. When the woman falls sick and becomes in need of medical examination, she should consult a female doctor. She is permitted, in no way, to seek the help of a male doctor unless she cannot find a female doctor or the female doctor is unable to treat her case. In this case, a woman can be examined by a male doctor. However, the following restrictions are to be adhered to:


Firstly: A male Mahram (unmarriageable relative) or the husband of the woman should be present during the medical examination to respect the rule of Khalwah.


Second: The examination should be focused only on the ailing part of the woman’s body.


In this regard, Imam Al-Ghazali, may Allah bless his soul, says: “The necessity that makes covering the `Awrah permissible should be considered. So that, the pride and the honor of the person concerned is not violated.”


Thirdly: In carrying out the medical checkup, the doctor should have fear of Allah in all his acts.


Fourthly: When there is a need for the woman to seek the medical examination of a male doctor, she should choose a trustworthy, honest and religious doctor.


By the same token, a male patient is not permitted to be examined by a female non-Mahram doctor, except in case of the lack of the male doctor or his inability to render the job. This view is supported by many evidence in Shari`ah.”

If you have any further comments, please don’t hesitate to write back!

May Allah guide you to the Straight Path, and direct you to that which pleases Him, Amen.


​

 

[michaelrack]

Read this QA to see what the Islamic stand is on this issue. Remember guys in Islam it's very simple, every action that saves the life of a human being is encouraged and allowed. .


Question by a Muslim Medical student:
Assalamu`alykum. I am a medical student. Although our primary motive is learning, sometimes we get slightly aroused to the extent that sexual secretions [not semen] are released.




[/COLOR][/LEFT]

Interesting. I didn't know that male Muslim med students had sexual secretions when examining females.

I interpret the answer by the scholars that it is ok for a Muslim female to see a male doc in an emergency. But the answer doesn't address what a med student can do in a non-emergency situation.

 

[Ronin2258]

Had this experience on OB/GYN in school. A Muslim couple came into L&D, and refused my exam. However, I was able to interview the woman at least, and had a female student (who was busy at the time,) to conduct the physical.

Ended up having to have an emergent C-section. There was only a male attending and resident. Husband initially refused, but gave in when told of the gravity of the situation.

 

[BenCarson]

Interesting. I didn't know that male Muslim med students had sexual secretions when examining females.

I interpret the answer by the scholars that it is ok for a Muslim female to see a male doc in an emergency. But the answer doesn't address what a med student can do in a non-emergency situation.

Based on your reply, I can tell that you are suffering Islamophobic syndrome. Can't believe an educated person like you would say these kind of things. I guess there is a difference between an educated person and a learned person.

You said "I didn't know that male Muslim med students had sexual secretions when examining females"

students is a plural and I don't see why you have to generalize unless you are suffering Islamophobic syndrome. It's only this student who mentioned that. why should you generalize this. I'm a muslim medical student here in U.S and I don't even think about sexual stuff when I'm examing patients. You have to understand that we are humans and sometimes people do make mistakes especially when you had no premarital sex and you are horney as it happens in some cultures. Remember the reason why we Americans don't get aroused very easily is b/c we are used of having sex from a young age. I'm not generalizing it but you got my point.


You said "I interpret the answer by the scholars that it is ok for a Muslim female to see a male doc in an emergency. But the answer doesn't address what a med student can do in a non-emergency situation"

where did you read this emergence vs non-emergence thing? The Scholar doesnt mention anything about this. All he mentioned was the guidelines. In emergence case you try ur best to locate a female doctor withing a reasonable time and if you cant then it's ok to treat the patient as long as she is ok with it. As I said before Allah/God values life and in some situations he allows us to break his own rules.

 

[Tiki]

They could go into clinical, and not anatomical, pathology. That would be exclusively laboratory based medicine correct? Just saying...

If she has a Ph.D, that might be an option, but the job market for a CP-trained only pathologist is non-existant, except maybe for blood bank. And if she chose to do blood bank, she'd have to see male apheresis patients.

Just about all CP-only pathologists are hard-core researchers.

 

[smq123]

Starting to veer off of a general residency topic. Will move to TIH.

 

[michaelrack]

where did you read this emergence vs non-emergence thing? The Scholar doesnt mention anything about this. All he mentioned was the guidelines. In emergence case you try ur best to locate a female doctor withing a reasonable time and if you cant then it's ok to treat the patient as long as she is ok with it. As I said before Allah/God values life and in some situations he allows us to break his own rules.

emergency vs non-emergency: "when a Muslim woman becomes ill and is compelled to go to a doctor,"

I guess I shouldn't have used the word emergency- it seems from the Islamic scholars' answer that in urgent situations a muslim female can also see a male doc if necessary.

the Islamic scholars never really answered the student's question:

"In such cases we examine women partially dressed. Although our primary motive is learning,"

Are you able to answer his question??
Can a muslim male medical student examine a female muslim in a non-urgent situation, when there are female med students and/or docs around.

If not, how are muslim male med students (living in a muslim country with mostly muslim females) supposed to learn???

 

[michaelrack]

Based on your reply, I can tell that you are suffering Islamophobic syndrome. Can't believe an educated person like you would say these kind of things. I guess there is a difference between an educated person and a learned person.

You said "I didn't know that male Muslim med students had sexual secretions when examining females"

students is a plural and I don't see why you have to generalize unless you are suffering Islamophobic syndrome. It's only this student who mentioned that. why should you generalize this. .

sometimes we get slightly aroused to the extent that sexual secretions [not semen] are released

"we" is plural, indicating that this release of sexual secretions [not semen] happens to others besides the student. I am assuming that this good pious muslim student is not lying about the secretion release happening with his fellow students.

 

[BenCarson]

Urgent or non-urgent any male who is a medical student can examine muslim/nonmuslim females because in Islam education is a priority. this is why in Muslim countries male medical students still examine female patients. sometimes some patients may refuse and of course this also happens here at home too. Let me give you a good example that will show the imprtant of education in Islam. the prophet of Islam Mohamed, SAW, said even though Allah forbids the practice of Witchcraft, nevertheless Muslims are allowed to learn the art but not to practice.

If there is no medical students in the hospital (nonteaching) then the muslim female must first be treated by a female doc, doesnt matter whether she is a muslim or not (remember the point is female vs male, not Muslims vs nonmuslims) if however there is only a male doc then he should treat her.

When the medical student said "we" he may made a mistake or he was talking about him and some of his close friends. Which in either case doesnt mean you should generalize and say Muslim medical students, because that would includee me. May be should have said some Muslim medical students referring to his comment.

Anyways if you meant no insult then I apologize for misdiagnosing you with the fatal Islamophobic syndrome. hope i dont get sued!

Guys lets please keep it simple, Islam is all about common sense. All the laws in Islam is based on logic (99%). You can find out yourself by doing research. There is about 1% that may go with human logic but this doesnt mean it's not logic, actually it's beyond our mind to comprehend it.

 

[BenCarson]

sometimes we get slightly aroused to the extent that sexual secretions [not semen] are released

"we" is plural, indicating that this release of sexual secretions [not semen] happens to others besides the student. I am assuming that this good pious muslim student is not lying about the secretion release happening with his fellow students.

Btw as you can tell from my writing, am a non-US born from Saudi Arabia so I know what am talking. It's the freaking sick fundamentalists that make Islam difficult when they actually know nothing about Islam themselves. This is why many idiots in the Western world think Islam is a religion of Killing b/c of few misguided so called muslims who cause harm in the name of Islam.

 

[michaelrack]

Anyways if you meant no insult then I apologize for misdiagnosing you with the fatal Islamophobic syndrome. hope i dont get sued!
.

no problem. you won't get sued.

you were the one who chose to post "Answer by the Islamic Scholars:

Wa`Alaykum As-Salam wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatuh." If I had found that somewhere else on the internet and posted it here to mock Muslims, that would make me an Islamophobe. but you can't blame me for finding it amusing.

thanks for the info regarding medical education in Muslim countries.

I'm done here. No disrespect meant to Muslims.

 

[hurdlepup]

This is why many idiots in the Western world think Islam is a religion of Killing b/c of few misguided so called muslims who cause harm in the name of Islam.

I don't claim to be an expert, but feel free to rebut this article. Surely you understand that there is SOME justification to Americans general mistrust of Islam, given the points raised in this article. I am also not bashing Muslims as people.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/11/does_islam_breed_violence.html


Also: this website: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
I had personally met one of the people on the list at the bottom and spent a couple of hours with him not long ago; he is family of a friend.

 

[BenCarson]

I don't claim to be an expert, but feel free to rebut this article. Surely you understand that there is SOME justification to Americans general mistrust of Islam, given the points raised in this article. I am also not bashing Muslims as people.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/11/does_islam_breed_violence.html


Also: this website: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
I had personally met one of the people on the list at the bottom and spent a couple of hours with him not long ago; he is family of a friend.

All I can say is no comments from me. I have no time to explain things to people who are narrow minded like you. Think before you post nonsense. After all this is SDN not some sort of religion website or FOX. Your post not worth my time.

 

[BenCarson]

I've had pretty bad personal experiences with several Muslims. Only one good experience, unfortunately. These quotes might explain why. Ingrained in Islam is a hatred for "kaffirs" or INFIDELS.

All you deserve is copy and past of my reply to previous poster.

All I can say is no comments from me. I have no time to explain things to people who are narrow minded like you. Think before you post nonsense. After all this is SDN not some sort of religion website or FOX. Your post not worth my time.

 

[BenCarson]

moderators can you please lock or delete this thread, clearly it's turning into FOX news and religion bashing thread. thanks.

 

[BenCarson]

This web site is designed to spread the vicious truth about the Bible. For far too long priests and preachers have completely ignored the vicious criminal acts that the Bible promotes. The so called “God” of the Bible makes Osama Bin Laden look like a Boy Scout. This God, according to the Bible, is directly responsible for many mass-murders, rapes, pillage, plunder, slavery, child abuse and killing, not to mention the killing of unborn children. I have included references to the Biblical passages, so grab your Bible and follow along. You can also follow along with on-line Bibles such as BibleStudyTools.net or SkepticsAnnotatedBible.com.
It always amazes me how many times this God orders the killing of innocent people even after the Ten Commandments said “Thou shall not kill”. For example, God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses” (Joshua 6). In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife! Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.

The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).

This type of criminal behavior should shock any moral person. Murder, rape, pillage, plunder, slavery, and child abuse can not be justified by saying that some god says it’s OK. If more people would actually sit down and read the Bible there would be a lot more atheists like myself.

Jesus also promoted the idea that all men should castrate themselves to go to heaven: "For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12 ASV) I don't know why anyone would follow the teachings of someone who literally tells all men to cut off their privates.

The God of the Bible also was a big fan of ritual human sacrifice and animal sacrifice.

And just in case you are thinking that the evil and immoral laws of the Old Testament are no longer in effect, perhaps you should read where Jesus makes it perfectly clear: "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB) There are many more quotes on this topic at my "Do Not Ignore the Old Testament" web page.

I know that most Christians believe that God is a good and loving god, and wants people to do good things. I believe that most people want to do good things and behave morally. I also believe that many Christians haven’t really read the Bible, or just read certain passages in church. This is understandable, as the Bible is hard to read due to its archaic language and obscure references. Also many priests and preachers don’t like to read certain passages in the Bible because they present a message of hate not love.

If you follow the links on the left side of this page you will learn about all the nasty things in the Bible that are usually not talked about by priests and preachers. You can also discuss things related to this web site or religion and atheism in general at the EvilBible.com Discussion Forum.
=========================================================



based on these does it mean Christianity is bad? I don't think so. Anybody with twisted mind would cherry-pick passages of holy books and use against that faith. every passage in every holy book has a context that has to be understood b4 one concludes.



Conclusion:
Cherry-picking=Bigotry

 

[Apollyon]

moderators can you please lock or delete this thread

This web site is designed to spread the vicious truth about the Bible.

<<anti-Jewish screed with element of anti-Christian statement>>

Conclusion:
Cherry-picking=Bigotry

Can't have it both ways, brother. Sorry.

 

[hurdlepup]

All I can say is no comments from me. I have no time to explain things to people who are narrow minded like you. Think before you post nonsense. After all this is SDN not some sort of religion website or FOX. Your post not worth my time.

But... then you went and posted a lot of comments...

However, instead of explaining how these quotes could be put into their proper context, you went off on a tangent about Christianity.

But, I wasn't asking about Christianity. I was actually hoping you would have been able to deliver some intellectual rationalizations regarding the concept of jihad as related to the Quran and the modern day world. Especially since one of my friends is currently attending her father's funeral, who was murdered in the name of jihad.

I was pointing out that to the rational-minded world, Islam looks pretty backward, violent, and oppressive (unless you are just being PC), and I was hoping you could help expand my horizons on the subject.

I mean, I wasn't rude, after all--just asking for clarification on the subject. I like to think of myself as a pretty open-minded person, and a reasonable response would be appreciated.

 

[BenCarson]

Can't have it both ways, brother. Sorry.

Hey I posted the Christian stuff to make a point that's all not to continue this road. I was simply saying to the other poster that all religions have bigots who bash them including the bigot who bashed Christianity on that website and that whatever that website said about Christianity was not truly representing Christianity as a faith. Anyways my post wasnt to bash Christianity or expose anything. But since you are the moderator then you make the call, though that call may be biased. I really think you either misunderstood the point of my post or you want this Islam bashing to continue which in today's post 911 is not uncommon. even if I was bashing Christianity shouldnt you supposed to stop this from happening on SDN?

 

[Apollyon]

But since you are the moderator then you make the call, though that call may be biased.

Oh no, no, I'm not a mod. Just another regular joe around here.

However, recall Gandhi - "An-eye-for-an-eye-for-an-eye-for-an-eye ... ends in making everybody blind". One bad turn does not deserve another.

 

[hurdlepup]

Hey I posted the Christian stuff to make a point that's all not to continue this road. I was simply saying to the other poster that all religions have bigots who bash them including the bigot who bashed Christianity on that website and that whatever that website said about Christianity was not truly representing Christianity as a faith. Anyways my post wasnt to bash Christianity or expose anything. But since you are the moderator then you make the call, though that call may be biased. I really think you either misunderstood the point of my post or you want this Islam bashing to continue which in today's post 911 is not uncommon. even if I was bashing Christianity shouldnt you supposed to stop this from happening on SDN?

Who was bashing? I asked a question--can you put those verses from the Quran into context? I mean, you say they are taken out of context--so I was asking a question out of curiosity, since you seemed pretty passionate, and I assumed, knowledgeable.

Unfortunately, all you did was erect a straw man, and distract the conversation. Which, originally, had to do with what exactly the Quran teaches regarding applications to modern day life. The subject turned to what us "idiots" in the Western world thought about Islam and violence, and since I don't know what the Quran teaches other than these verses I came across in a google search--I asked. You had the opportunity to enlighten me, instead you overreacted in anger. If you have any desire to have an honest conversation about the actual teachings of your religion, you have a listening audience.

 

[BenCarson]

But... then you went and posted a lot of comments...

However, instead of explaining how these quotes could be put into their proper context, you went off on a tangent about Christianity.

But, I wasn't asking about Christianity. I was actually hoping you would have been able to deliver some intellectual rationalizations regarding the concept of jihad as related to the Quran and the modern day world. Especially since one of my friends is currently attending her father's funeral, who was murdered in the name of jihad.

I was pointing out that to the rational-minded world, Islam looks pretty backward, violent, and oppressive (unless you are just being PC), and I was hoping you could help expand my horizons on the subject.

I mean, I wasn't rude, after all--just asking for clarification on the subject. I like to think of myself as a pretty open-minded person, and a reasonable response would be appreciated.

my posting wasnt about bashing Christianity, it was about making a point which you indeed failed to understand. I was basically saying every religion gets bashed and this doesnt mean the religion is bad as I tried to illustrate using the Christian stuff that I posted.

If you really want to understand the context of those verses from the Quran you would contact an Imam, Islamic Scholar on many websites rather than asking me, a medical student who is not Islamic scholar. The concept of Jihad is very complex subject that needs Scholar explanation and I would be misleading you if I pretend to be an expert on this concept.

You said "I was pointing out that to the rational-minded world, Islam looks pretty backward, violent, and oppressive"
First of all a rational-minded person would not judge a faith based on cherry-picked verses and conclude that the faith is backward, violent..etc, rather the rational minded and the educated mind would first do research then come to some sort of conlcusion from their research. Even if it seems backward to them, they would still stay away from commenting on other peoples faith let alone posting it on a public forum. Great minds don't conclude without substantial research. anyways if you want the truth then do your own research and you will see the truth.

Some questions to consider:
1. Why so many Americans are converting to Islam if Islam is such a bad religion? In fact Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and especialy here at home. Facts speak for itsself.
2. Why more than 1.6 Billion people in the globe follow such a corrupt religion?

Well to me there are two reasons to answer these questions:
1. So many Americans and the global community are so stupid they follow a corrupt religion

OR

2. These people are so smart they did research and found out the true Islam and thus embraced it.

For obvious reasons answer 2 is the most probable.