Best Medical School

[akinf]

What school is considered to be the best in Canada for a Canadian student? I know there are rankings that say Toronto, McGill, whatever, but realistically, if you want to enjoy your medical school experience, become a competent doctor, and have a great time while doing it, where is the place to go?

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[Blake]

I'd say Toronto.

 

[coastal]

double post

 

[coastal]

I think this question has been through the wash a few times. Check old posts. If you're really curious, you can check out old posts on premed101.com (forums section), which is like SDN for Canadian med students/premeds.

Short answer is all the schools are good, it isn't like the States.

.....and I doubt many Canadian med students or physicians would agree that Toronto is the "best" school, especially if we're talking QOL while you're going through.

 

[SMRT]

What school is considered to be the best in Canada for a Canadian student? I know there are rankings that say Toronto, McGill, whatever, but realistically, if you want to enjoy your medical school experience, become a competent doctor, and have a great time while doing it, where is the place to go?

The place to go is the school with the following qualities:
-in a city you like
-acceptable distance from your family (maybe close, maybe far)
-a curriculum you like (more or less PBL, 3 vs 4 year, etc)
-tuition you can afford (or don't mind going in to debt for)
-opportunities for research if you so desire
-whatever else is important to you

OR...

-the school that accepts you!!!!!

There really isn't any difference in the quality of education at all Canadian medical schools is very consistent. CaRMS match stats are good across all schools. The rankings which you speak of (Maclean's) ARE NOT RANKINGS OF MED SCHOOLS!!!! They are rankings of the university as a whole.

There is really and truly no "Best Medical School" in Canada (and this is coming from a UofT med student)

.....and I doubt many Canadian med students or physicians would agree that Toronto is the "best" school, especially if we're talking QOL while you're going through.

I am curious what you mean by this.

 

[ssc_396]

I'd say Toronto.

No, Toronto is not the best. This has been discussed to death but I need to respond every time someone spouts 'Toronto' in response to this question - it's like Tourettes.

Toronto is the best University in Canada for research, not for your MD. There is no ranking for MD schools alone. I'd say all schools in Canada are equally good (including Toronto). As the above poster said, the people who are good enough to get multiple offers pick school based on a city they like (where they have family), and minute details in curriculum/financial aid. Your MD school makes absolutely no difference in terms of your residency chances. btw... Of the 8 schools I interviewed at in Canada this year I rank Toronto dead last and I think Western is my easy favorite followed by Ottawa. But as I say, my ranking is based on tiny insignificant things and I'd still be thrilled to wind up at UofT.

 

[docbill]

I always like it when this topic comes up over and over again.

To the original poster:
1-Which school do you think is the best? ____________
2-Which school do you wish to go to? _________
3-Which school did you get accepted to? If and when you applied? ________

_________ is the best school in Canada.

 

[fourpoints]

In terms of reputation, McGill is without a doubt the best medical school in Canada. There is not even a question of this. I am a US citizen and recently completed medical school in Canada. I am now at a very competitive residency program in the states. Unfortunately, not too many people know of U of T in the US and abroad (sorry Toronto folks who keep citing this "Macleans" magazine which I have never heard of). Internationally, McGill has an exceptional repuatation. It ranks among the top medical schools in N. America. I am guessing that someone will reply to this post and say that the "reputation" of McGill (especially outside of Canada) is not important and that McGill is just "riding on it's name." If this were true, McGill grads wouldn't be filling the finest residency slots in Canada and the U.S. There also wouldn't be a tremendous amount of new construction on the McGill campus, including the new genomics center.

 

[fourpoints]

In terms of above, to further push the point home, I did not even go to medical school in Quebec....so there is no bias here.

 

[ssc_396]

I agree with docbill - but I love a good reason to procrastinate....

It ranks among the top medical schools in N. America. I am guessing that someone will reply to this post and say that the "reputation" of McGill (especially outside of Canada) is not important and that McGill is just "riding on it's name."

What ranking are you talking about? In terms of research dollars McGill isn’t even playing the same sport as pretty much any US school in the top 20. Note - this is based on research dollars – The McGill Faculty of Medicine 04 budget was ~300 million CAD. Compare this to Northwestern (ranked no. 20 in the US) whose Med School 04 budget was 850 million US.

Yes- McGill grads rank well in the US. This is because this is the only school in Canada that accepts many Americans, so the only school that sends grads south is McGill. If other schools started accepting them these schools would gain an equivalent reputation.

McGill is ok. It’s no better or worse than anywhere else in the country. Personally I didn’t like it because:
1. 70% of the class are 18 years old as a result of the MEDP program and
2. there is very little clinical exposure until 3rd year.

Montreal is a nice city though and I love the idea of re-learning French.

p.s. fourpoints, how did you go to med school in Canada for 4 years and not hear of Macleans? And the only other school in Canada which takes Americans is UofT (maybe 1 or 2 per year compared to 15 at McGill), so if you claim that you went to school in Canada, and this school wasn't McGill, I find your story a little curious.

Therefore, if you are not a troll, then the only possibility is that you went to UofT (which I doubt). In which case you said that you are at a very competitive residency in the US. Doesn't this argue for UofT having a good reputation south of the border?

 

[Blake]

Personally I didn’t like it because:
1. 70% of the class are 18 years old as a result of the MEDP program and
2. there is very little clinical exposure until 3rd year.

1. It's actually more like 30 % of the class that's 20 years old (medP)
2. They have clinical exposure starting from 2nd year.

Your info is wrong.

 

[akinf]

This is really good to know that Canadian med. school quality is pretty consistent across the board. This way, your options are way more open to applying to a bunch of schools and knowing you will still be getting the same quality as anywhere else.

I always like it when this topic comes up over and over again.

To the original poster:
1-Which school do you think is the best? ____________
2-Which school do you wish to go to? _________
3-Which school did you get accepted to? If and when you applied? ________

_________ is the best school in Canada.

1. I don't really know, that's why I started the thread.
2. Ideally, based on city, student life, and ease of transition, probably Queen's, Toronto, or Ottawa.
3. I start applying this summer and I am keeping my fingers SUPER crossed!!

 

[ssc_396]

This is really good to know that Canadian med. school quality is pretty consistent across the board. This way, your options are way more open to applying to a bunch of schools and knowing you will still be getting the same quality as anywhere else.




1. I don't really know, that's why I started the thread.
2. Ideally, based on city, student life, and ease of transition, probably Queen's, Toronto, or Ottawa.
3. I start applying this summer and I am keeping my fingers SUPER crossed!!

Then apply far and wide. If you are lucky enough to get a bunch of acceptances know that it will make no difference to your career where you choose. Just pick the school which makes you happiest!

Good luck

 

[Prag]

Hi,

Having applied to both the US and Canada, it was my experience that there really are no "bad" medical schools in Canada and it ultimately depends on what you are looking for with respect to curriculum, city etc...(versus the US where some schools are noticeably questionnable)

Just to correct a couple of things stated by SSC:

Yes- McGill grads rank well in the US. This is because this is the only school in Canada that accepts many Americans, so the only school that sends grads south is McGill. If other schools started accepting them these schools would gain an equivalent reputation.

Simply not true--I have friends that graduated from other Canadian schools that wrote the USMLE and headed south...

McGill is ok. It’s no better or worse than anywhere else in the country. Personally I didn’t like it because:
1. 70% of the class are 18 years old as a result of the MEDP program and
2. there is very little clinical exposure until 3rd year.

1. 70% of the class is definitely NOT 18 years old...rather, less than half of the class are from the MED-P program (many of whom are at least 20 years old in Med-1)--not that I necessarily agree with the MED-P program, but just stating facts.
2. Not true either--we enter the hospital after 1.5 years and while many other schools begin rotations in third year with clinical exposure once a week from year 1, we are in the hospital 5 days a week January of second year.

Lastly, McGill actually only accepted 8 American students this past year while I believe UofT accepted 6.

Again, the choice of school is a personal choice and it ultimately depends on what you are looking for...

good luck,

-prag

 

[coastal]

I am curious what you mean by this.

From having talked to a few U of T med students, and read a fair deal online, it sounds like the curriculum is fairly intensive with alot of classroom hours and a competitive atmosphere amongst the students. Speaking from a purely quality of life standpoint, this doesn't appeal to me, and I'll bet it wouldn't appeal ot many other people....from a QOL standpoint (I'm just emphasizing cause I notice many people seem to have poor reading skills, not a comment on you in particular, just I look at other people's responses to posts and wonder how they did in the VR). Other things such as high cost of living, I would argue, also drag down your QOL. I just contrast this with my relatively cheap, low competitivness, and lots of afternoons-free life at Queens, and conclude that, if we were trying to choose a "#1 super-duper Canadian Med School", from a quality of life perspective, it probably wouldn't be Toronto. Not saying it would be Queens either, since QOL is so subjective.

Does that clarify?

Re the Macleans thing (which has nothing to do with med schools! anyone, if you don't know this you are an idiot!), I saw on the news today that a couple of schools are refusing to provide information to Macleans for their next edition of the university-ranking guide. I just saw the end of the story, but U of C was bitching a bit, and U of T was also bitching because they didn't like the fact that Macleans apparently seems to emphasize the large class sizes at U of T. I think the Macleans system is rather flawed, but at least it provides high school kids with something to help them make choices.

 

[SMRT]

From having talked to a few U of T med students, and read a fair deal online, it sounds like the curriculum is fairly intensive with alot of classroom hours and a competitive atmosphere amongst the students. Speaking from a purely quality of life standpoint, this doesn't appeal to me, and I'll bet it wouldn't appeal ot many other people....from a QOL standpoint (I'm just emphasizing cause I notice many people seem to have poor reading skills, not a comment on you in particular, just I look at other people's responses to posts and wonder how they did in the VR). Other things such as high cost of living, I would argue, also drag down your QOL. I just contrast this with my relatively cheap, low competitivness, and lots of afternoons-free life at Queens, and conclude that, if we were trying to choose a "#1 super-duper Canadian Med School", from a quality of life perspective, it probably wouldn't be Toronto. Not saying it would be Queens either, since QOL is so subjective.

Does that clarify?

Yeah I figured this is what you were referring to. First year at Uoft is fairly packed in terms of time spent in lecture and lab, etc and can be fairly tiring. But I didn't find it unmanageable. It is med school afterall... Second year on the other hand is a whole different story. I have not had this much free time since, well, ever. We have lots of afternoons off (3/week in first term at and least 2, sometimes 3 in second term) and not as much time spent in lecture (more seminars instead).

The competitiveness thing is like an urban myth that has taken on its own life. I always hear people say "well the UofT med students I know...." I don't know who these students are because no one that I know in my class would describe our class as competitive at all. I wouldn't even say that there's a disproportionate number of keeners (although I guess I can't really say this without knowing the keener populations at other schools ). I think people want to do well for themselves, but I have never seen anything that I would call competitiveness in our class. There's really no reason for it because theoretically everyone can get honours. There's a fair number of things we like to whine about but the atmosphere in our class has never been one of them. So everyone say it with me now... UofT is not competitive!!!!

But the high cost of tuition and living in TO is fairly depressing everytime I look at my LOC balance!!!

 

[fourpoints]

In response to SSC....
You shouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly. Yes, I am a U.S. citizen. I worked in a molecular biology lab for several years in Boston (at an institution I am sure you heard of). Our group was working in parallel with a group in Ontario and due to a variety of reasons, I transferred my work there (part of the reason is that my fiance is Canadian). I spent several years in Ontario and ultimately decided against Phd work and applied to medicine instead. Hence, I attended medical school in Canada (in Ontario). So no, I am not a "troll"....I am just a well educated U.S. citizen with strong ties to Canada. With regard to McGill, my fiance's brother goes there. Your information about 70% of the class being 18 years old is completely false. Clinical exposure begins in the second year (as Blake noted). And I am not sure what you are talking about in terms of the school's "budget." Do you mean NIH funding? If that is the case, then I suggest you look at Hopkins, which received about 400 million in NIH funding last year....about 400 million less than your citation of Northwestern. Yet Hopkins is the number 2 med school in the U.S. and Northwestern is 20. The bottom line is that NIH funding, or even a shool's overall budget, is not that important when it comes to medical education...it fuels lab work instead (which of course is important in its own right). McGill has more than enough money to run an excellent medical education program. It is also a preminent university in general (the best in Canada), so even if other medical schools in Canada increased the number of students they take from the states, the reputation of the school would never reach that of McGill. It sounds like you may be a bit jealous of that wonderful institution in Quebec....and a bit slighted by the fact that most people have not heard of Macleans (did I spell that correctly?).

 

[leviathan]

In response to SSC....
You shouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly. Yes, I am a U.S. citizen. I worked in a molecular biology lab for several years in Boston (at an institution I am sure you heard of). Our group was working in parallel with a group in Ontario and due to a variety of reasons, I transferred my work there (part of the reason is that my fiance is Canadian). I spent several years in Ontario and ultimately decided against Phd work and applied to medicine instead. Hence, I attended medical school in Canada (in Ontario). So no, I am not a "troll"....I am just a well educated U.S. citizen with strong ties to Canada. With regard to McGill, my fiance's brother goes there. Your information about 70% of the class being 18 years old is completely false. Clinical exposure begins in the second year (as Blake noted). And I am not sure what you are talking about in terms of the school's "budget." Do you mean NIH funding? If that is the case, then I suggest you look at Hopkins, which received about 400 million in NIH funding last year....about 400 million less than your citation of Northwestern. Yet Hopkins is the number 2 med school in the U.S. and Northwestern is 20. The bottom line is that NIH funding, or even a shool's overall budget, is not that important when it comes to medical education...it fuels lab work instead (which of course is important in its own right). McGill has more than enough money to run an excellent medical education program. It is also a preminent university in general (the best in Canada), so even if other medical schools in Canada increased the number of students they take from the states, the reputation of the school would never reach that of McGill. It sounds like you may be a bit jealous of that wonderful institution in Quebec....and a bit slighted by the fact that most people have not heard of Macleans (did I spell that correctly?).

All Canadian medical schools are equal in most ways in the quality of education that they deliver. Being a good research school doesn't make you a good medical school, it makes you a good research school. The University of Manitoba isn't exactly known for its stellar reputation, but it's apparently ranked as one of the best in Canada and its students are highly regarded both in Canada and abroad.

 

[docbill]

you guys.. are funny.. McGill.. or UofT.. or Queens or... UWO.. or UdeM.... ahhh yeahhh never ending competition.

 

[akinf]

That's the interesting thing about Canadian schools. Reputations are not made based on undergraduate quality, or medical school, or law school, or even any other professional school for that matter. It is made based on the amount of research a university pumps out, the amount of publications they receive, and the amount of grant money they award. That's why it is so difficult to narrow down exactly which school is the best medical school. Rankings for this category are not typically published; instead, the reputation of the graduate programs just get transferred over to the medical school. Consider University of Manitoba, not a very good undergraduaate school (I go there), the graduate program is not all that great either, but, the students, the scholarships, and the graduate programs our students gain admission to are some of the best in the world. Also, our medical school isn't that bad!!

 

[OneBadSkwerl]

What school is considered to be the best in Canada for a Canadian student? I know there are rankings that say Toronto, McGill, whatever, but realistically, if you want to enjoy your medical school experience, become a competent doctor, and have a great time while doing it, where is the place to go?

Who cares what the 'best' school is, just go where you think you'll be happiest using whatever criteria you use to assess 'fun and happiness'

 

[xylem29]

Who cares what the 'best' school is, just go where you think you'll be happiest using whatever criteria you use to assess 'fun and happiness'

To the person from the states - the majority of americans consider McGill as Canada's best university - I can't understand why, perhaps there is some historical context working here. But to a self-proclaimed highly educated individual, you should realize that your views about what is the best in Canada is higly biased by the fact that you're from the US and when you observe med school discussions by canadian students, you should realize that mcgill isn't discussed as if it were the "best". From what I observe, UBC, Calgary, all ON schools, dalhousie, and mcgill are the most popular...but mcgill accepts more US citizens than it does non-quebec canadians so there's almost no point in considering mcgill for majority of canadian undgergrads

If you look at the boards, most US students when they discuss Canadian meds, all the every talk about is McGill, and sometimes Mac b/c of it's no mcat and 3 years thingy. You have never heard of maclean's? Well then you haven't been in Canada long enough...anyone interested/involved with post-secondary education has heard of macleans and their annual university rankings issue.

I'm suprised no one has brought up UBC...I don't think Toronto has the best med school. Funny thing is, U of T students keep saying things like "U of T is like the Harvard of the north" while Americans consider McGill to be Canada's harvard - U of T students are sometimes quite full of themselves.

And as to the rumor - I know quite a bit of toronto students and yes...it's quite competitive. This might be wrong but i read that 60% of the students did ungergrad at u of t and if this is true, then the competitive rumor has to be true...friggin u of t...bah!!!

 

[D30417995]

I've just read the first post by the OP. I believe most Canadians don't have the luxury of choosing which med school to go to. Most simply go to the one school that accepts them. I guess very few people actually get multiple offers in Canada?! Afterall, it's Canada. My friend did very well in undergrad, one of the top students in his faculty, was accepted by UT the month before school began and rejected by all the other Ontario med schools.

 

[docbill]

It is a chances game for most people.

There are of course our future "leaders", a small number of selected students with exceptional stats and get offers at every place they apply. But that is probably less than 5% of the applicant pool.

 

[Badkarma25]

these posts absolutely blow me away...any med school in canada is good. trying to rank one as the best is like trying to empty the ocean with a spoon. who really cares? i mean you should be happy to get into any school....the MD program is really a means to an end.

if it's quality of life you're worried about it, forget canada altogether. apply to one of the rock star medical schools in ireland. our quality of life kicks ass.

 

[hoomsy]

someone just sent this to me today...

http://www.thes.co.uk/downloads/rankings/worldrankings2005.pdf



hoomsy

 

[ssc_396]

someone just sent this to me today...

http://www.thes.co.uk/downloads/rankings/worldrankings2005.pdf



hoomsy

First off, this has nothing to do with medical school. Second, it's a load of bollucks designed to make UK schools look good. And I say this as a longtime UK student. I've been at Oxford for 5 years and there's no way that we deserve to be ahead of Stanford.

Most people can't access this so here are the top 5:
Rank P.R. R.R. INT'L Fac INT'l Stu Fac/Stu Cit/fac Overall
1 Harvard 100 100 17 23 21 57 100.0
2 MIT 84 87 12 41 16 53 86.9
3 Cambridge 96 73 65 34 20 16 85.8
4 Oxford 93 70 58 37 23 15 83.9
5 Stanford 78 95 10 30 12 56 83.4
.
.
.
25 McGill 52 48 33 31 23 8 51.6


The schools rank is shown in the far left. Then the various numbers which make up the rank are: Peer Review (which counts for 40% of the overall score), Recruiter review(10%), INT'L Faculty(5%), INT'L Students(5%), Faculty/Student ratio(20%), Citations/faculty (20%).

These criteria were weighted like that in order to rank UK universities higher. Period.

Now to me, the only thing which really makes a 'good' University from those criteria are the citations/faculty. This is an indicator on how good the research coming out of your University is. Oxford and Cambridge score an abismal 15 and 16 respectively out of 100. McGill scores a wopping 8 out of 100. UofT at least gets a 22. UBC a 17. Places like Oxford, Cambridge and yes McGill do well in this type of ranking because reputation is a huge part of the scoring. When you look at the actual productivity of these Universities they are seriously lacking compared to the 'real' top Universities like Harvard and CalTech.

And fourpoints, the numbers I quoted ages ago were total med school budget. Hopkins pulls in close to 3 Billion USD(http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/about/statistics/).
McGill 350 million CAD (I can't find a link for this).

Though, again and again, THIS ALL MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO YOUR MD IN CANADA. This only has to do with research. If you get into 1 school in Canada count yourself lucky and go. If you get into 2+ offers and you need rankings to help you decide please run blindfolded into the 401 and give the spot to someone else.

 

[hoomsy]

Not tryin to start a fight or say ne thing...just saying this is what someone sent me...there is also a rank in there about "biomedicine".

anyhow...just saying mcgill doesn't do too bad compared to other schools...

but ur right..MD is MD. i was once shadowing a doc back in boston (in an ER)...this is when i was in grade 10...i asked what's a good med school...does going to one med school make a difference over another...he said...look at my colleague here...he went to harvard...i couldn't get into med school in the US so i went to mexico...we both have the same job and get paid the same.

so the basically..if u want to practice...makes no damn difference where ur MD is from. patients won't say yeah i don't want to go see him because he came from so and so university. the only difference it would make is if u went into research or academia....

blah...


hoomsy

First off, this has nothing to do with medical school. Second, it's a load of bollucks designed to make UK schools look good. And I say this as a longtime UK student. I've been at Oxford for 5 years and there's no way that we deserve to be ahead of Stanford.

Most people can't access this so here are the top 5:
Rank P.R. R.R. INT'L Fac INT'l Stu Fac/Stu Cit/fac Overall
1 Harvard 100 100 17 23 21 57 100.0
2 MIT 84 87 12 41 16 53 86.9
3 Cambridge 96 73 65 34 20 16 85.8
4 Oxford 93 70 58 37 23 15 83.9
5 Stanford 78 95 10 30 12 56 83.4
.
.
.
25 McGill 52 48 33 31 23 8 51.6


The schools rank is shown in the far left. Then the various numbers which make up the rank are: Peer Review (which counts for 40% of the overall score), Recruiter review(10%), INT'L Faculty(5%), INT'L Students(5%), Faculty/Student ratio(20%), Citations/faculty (20%).

These criteria were weighted like that in order to rank UK universities higher. Period.

Now to me, the only thing which really makes a 'good' University from those criteria are the citations/faculty. This is an indicator on how good the research coming out of your University is. Oxford and Cambridge score an abismal 15 and 16 respectively out of 100. McGill scores a wopping 8 out of 100. UofT at least gets a 22. UBC a 17. Places like Oxford, Cambridge and yes McGill do well in this type of ranking because reputation is a huge part of the scoring. When you look at the actual productivity of these Universities they are seriously lacking compared to the 'real' top Universities like Harvard and CalTech.

And fourpoints, the numbers I quoted ages ago were total med school budget. Hopkins pulls in close to 3 Billion USD(http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/about/statistics/).
McGill 350 million CAD (I can't find a link for this).

Though, again and again, THIS ALL MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO YOUR MD IN CANADA. This only has to do with research. If you get into 1 school in Canada count yourself lucky and go. If you get into 2+ offers and you need rankings to help you decide please run blindfolded into the 401 and give the spot to someone else.

 

[D30417995]

Yes, you're right.

and being a doctor is about helping the sick and the needy, not about the title, prestige, money and all the other non-sense. It's easy to forget this when studying gets rough, but I guess we all need to slow down from time to time and reflect on our true motivation for going in to medicine.

 

[fourpoints]

In response to the Times Higher Learning rankings.....yes, I understand your input concerning research vs reputation in terms of defining an institution's "prowess." You clearly cited McGill's score of "8" in the "citations" category. However, one thing you failed to note is that this number reflects the overall University output (social sciences, engineering etc...). As this is a medical forum, I suggest you look at the subcategory titled "biomedicine." Here you will see that McGill has a citations score of "18.9" which puts it in the top 20 in the world. You can't deny that McGill is a world player in academic circles and that it is the best institution of higher learning in Canada. The numbers are objective and prove it. And these numbers will improve in the future as more and more people are recruited to McGill (in contrast to the "braindrain" of the late 1990's). One thing that McGill will always have going for it is it's location in Montreal....one of the most cultured and interesting cities in the world (with an awesome, thriving and growing music scene for those who are interested). McGill's reputation in the states (perhaps "inflated" but nevertheless present) only complements the objective numbers and serves to propel McGill forward. And all this on a "350 million dollar CDN" budget as you so put it....amazing!!

 

[ssc_396]

anyhow...just saying mcgill doesn't do too bad compared to other schools...

That's true. This ranking does prove one thing. McGill does have a better reputation as a University than other Canadian schools. Whether or not that reputation is deserved is another debate. And reputation does carry some weight for residency placement in the US. It carries no weight for the same process in Canada (providing you’re from a Canadian school). So I will concede to fourpoints and hoomsy that as an American there is no better place than McGill for you to be in Canada.

 

[docbill]

being a doctor is about helping the sick and the needy, not about the title, prestige, money and all the other non-sense. It's easy to forget this when studying gets rough, but I guess we all need to slow down from time to time and reflect on our true motivation for going in to medicine.

Hahhhhhaaaa.. this is a good post. Nothing against you D30417995, you are completely correct... however prob about 50 percent that go in to medicine are not in it for that reason. In my opinion reality is not like that. 50% go into medicine because being a doctor means:

1) Title (Physician = Mini-GOD)
2) Financial Power (Physician = RICH BASTARD)
3) EGO CONTROL EGO (Physician = the right to be both)
4) Parents Pride (Physician = Parents proud of kid... reason to do medicine, parents said to)
5) Type A personality playing field (if you are type A you beter be in this profession).
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51) Your med school (what school you went to).
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101) Helping sick people.

 

[ssc_396]

You can't deny that McGill is a world player in academic circles and that it is the best institution of higher learning in Canada.

Yes I can deny that. Based on resources, as a place to do research McGill is no 'better' than UBC, UofA or Toronto. As a place to do your undergrad, well that is a nearly impossible thing to rank or even define. As a place to do medicine it's equally impossible to say. Besides, unless you are American or from Quebec your chances of getting into McGill are almost none (or 1 in 80 to be exact).

At least UofT, Queens and Western (after SWOMEN) have no geographic restrictions when you apply so you could argue that these schools have the 'best' students from across Canada (though I would strongly disagree with even this statement).

And all this on a "350 million dollar CDN" budget as you so put it....amazing!!

This is certainly true. Canadian 'bang for your buck' research is outstanding. But this isn't limited to McGill.

 

[docbill]

Yes I can deny that. Based on resources, as a place to do research McGill is no 'better' than UBC, UofA or Toronto. As a place to do your undergrad, well that is a nearly impossible thing to rank or even define. As a place to do medicine it's equally impossible to say. Besides, unless you are American or from Quebec your chances of getting into McGill are almost none (or 1 in 80 to be exact).




This is certainly true. Canadian 'bang for your buck' research is outstanding. But this isn't limited to McGill.

Re: Grad School and Medical Research

Well the fact remains.. UofT is the medical research centre of Canada. WHO EVER HAS DREAMS THAT ANY OTHER ONE IS... they are ******ed.

Again, other than SSC_396 and I, is there anyone else posting on here with a PhD or a MSc in medical sciences?

 

[fourpoints]

Docbill, do you go to medical school in Maine? What was your thesis?

 

[docbill]

Docbill, do you go to medical school in Maine? What was your thesis?

Hey Fourpoints,

I am almost done with my PhD at UofT, cardiac stem cell therapy.

After having tried 2 years in a row in Canadian schools, I decided to go to the University of New England in maine to do a DO degree.

Life gives you twists and turns and all we can do is ride the wave and try to hold on for dear god.

Now I know the meaning of the saying: Its not the getting there, it is the path you take..

 

[ssc_396]

Hey Fourpoints,

I am almost done with my PhD at UofT, cardiac stem cell therapy.

After having tried 2 years in a row in Canadian schools, I decided to go to the University of New England in maine to do a DO degree.

Life gives you twists and turns and all we can do is ride the wave and try to hold on for dear god.

Now I know the meaning of the saying: Its not the getting there, it is the path you take..

Hey docbill,

This is getting off topic but... I'm not sure if you've heard this but starting next years IMGs will be allowed to apply in the first round of the Canadian residency match along with regular Canadian grads. Have you heard if the same will be true for DOs?

 

[docbill]

Hey docbill,

This is getting off topic but... I'm not sure if you've heard this but starting next years IMGs will be allowed to apply in the first round of the Canadian residency match along with regular Canadian grads. Have you heard if the same will be true for DOs?

Hey SsC_69

Actually DO can match in Ontario (FP only) First round already.
They can also match in Alberta first round (if I recall correctly). Of course they can try to match in any possition 2nd round.

Quebec is a bit of a ?!!?!!?!!?!!? next year they use CARMS, so I am not sure how that will work.

Either way, I will not do my residency in Canada, unless it is at one of the big centres, so meaning 0.00 to 0.0003% chance (Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Quebec City, Ottawa, or Calgary). Paying back a US$ student loan on low Canadian salary will not be fun either. The best case senario would be to do my residency in the US (with my little research background) one of the top 30 centers should be in reach (even as a DO). I was thinking about the research path in Inter.Med.

http://www.abim.org/cert/respath_pp.shtm

Also I will consider coming back to Canada for Fellowship in Cardiology (chances of getting in as an outsider 0.0000 to 0.000001%).

Not all negative, as soon as I am registered in the ABIM (US) and as long as I did my USMLES, I can come back to Ontario, NB and possibly BC and Qc without doing any exams at all. Or I will live in along the US-Canada border (in the US) and pay less taxes.

 

[D30417995]

Hey docbill,

This is getting off topic but... I'm not sure if you've heard this but starting next years IMGs will be allowed to apply in the first round of the Canadian residency match along with regular Canadian grads. Have you heard if the same will be true for DOs?

Hi ssc_396, how reliable is your source?

 

[ssc_396]

Hi ssc_396, how reliable is your source?

It's being discussed to death in the med forum on ezboard:

http://p090.ezboard.com/fpremed101frm63.showMessageRange?topicID=179.topic&start=1&stop=20

You can draw your own conclusions, but to me, based on the letters from Dr. Joshua Tepper (an Ontario Assistant Deputy Minister) and from Andre Bernard (the president of the CFMS) it looks like it's a sure thing.

So docbill, I'd bet by the time you finish you'll be able to apply to all specialtites in all provinces in the first round, not just FP. Whether you'll want to come back is another story. I for one hope you do. Canada needs more academically trained medics.

 

[docbill]

So docbill, I'd bet by the time you finish you'll be able to apply to all specialtites in all provinces in the first round, not just FP. Whether you'll want to come back is another story. I for one hope you do. Canada needs more academically trained medics.

Thanks for the info.

Wow.. like I posted on that thread. I stoped going there, simply because I was going to the US, and did not want to mess with that plan.

Ooooohhh how sweet that will be. Being able to compete with the Canadian trained MDs will be fun. Even as a DO. Those little kids won't know what hit them. Especially the 50% that are in the profession for the wrong reason.

Definitely I would want to come back to my country. My academic training, my nationalism and billingual (French/English) will definitely be a plus. I guess have build that network in the medical field in Canada will definitely be to my advantage.

Thanks again,
BA

 

[cheer_up]

Thanks for the info.

Wow.. like I posted on that thread. I stoped going there, simply because I was going to the US, and did not want to mess with that plan.

Ooooohhh how sweet that will be. Being able to compete with the Canadian trained MDs will be fun. Even as a DO. Those little kids won't know what hit them. Especially the 50% that are in the profession for the wrong reason.

Definitely I would want to come back to my country. My academic training, my nationalism and billingual (French/English) will definitely be a plus. I guess have build that network in the medical field in Canada will definitely be to my advantage.

Thanks again,
BA

Hey docbill, I also hope that you'll come back to Canada one day after you finish DO school.

I know what you mean with paying back student loans on a Canadian salary. I'm in a similar situation, except I'm in dentistry. I've been trying to get into an Advanced Standing Program at a Canadian dental school for nearly 2 years now, and it's really not working out for me. So, I think I'm heading for the US.....*sigh*. With my huge debt currently and I will definitely accumulate quite a bit more with doing the ASP, I know I'll be forced to stay and work in the US for a while until my loans are, or nearly, paid off (unless, of course, I win the lottery in the meantime, but that's really wishful thinking ). However, like you, I would want or like to eventually come back to Canada because it's my home and there is no place like it. Well, let's see where my future will take me. Like you said, "Life gives you twists and turns and all we can do is ride the wave and try to hold on for dear god." That is so true.

It's really too bad that you couldn't get into a Canadian med school with your qualification. Life is a b?!!ch sometimes.

Anyway, wish you all the very best with DO school and your other future endeavours.

 

[docbill]

BTW, just to get back on topic,

UVic is the best undergraduate school in Canada.

If you want to enjoy undergrad and enjoy the environment then definitely UVic is the place to go. Also UVic in the summer is difficult, since the beaches are all over the place and concentrating on studying is difficult.

 

[Jocks]

Thanks for the info.

Ooooohhh how sweet that will be. Being able to compete with the Canadian trained MDs will be fun. Even as a DO. Those little kids won't know what hit them. Especially the 50% that are in the profession for the wrong reason.

Definitely I would want to come back to my country. My academic training, my nationalism and billingual (French/English) will definitely be a plus. I guess have build that network in the medical field in Canada will definitely be to my advantage.

Thanks again,
BA

The new Carms rules won't have IMG's competing against Canadian grads. It will be a parallel match with a certain percentage of every specialty set aside for IMG's. So you'll only compete against other IMG's.

 

[Badkarma25]

hey,

the carms first round thing with img's is a done deal. they are going to run a parallel match for img's concurrently with the first round. i have documents i can email anyone. got them from my friend who just finished at u of t. i doubt it'll make any difference for us. there are barely enough spots for the canadian grads, let alone anythign else. get in touch if you'd like me to email you what i have...

 

[docbill]

Ohhh okay.. Well its a good start.

I will pm you about getting that info.

thanks again,
BA

 

[tiger_lily]

BTW, just to get back on topic,

UVic is the best undergraduate school in Canada.

If you want to enjoy undergrad and enjoy the environment then definitely UVic is the place to go. Also UVic in the summer is difficult, since the beaches are all over the place and concentrating on studying is difficult.

Damn straight!!!

LOL. Ok, so I'm totally biased since this is where I did my undergrad But *DAMN*. Living on the island is amazing. The snowboarding, the city, the scuba diving, rock climbing, backpacking, surfing - you can have it all. I wouldn't trade doing my undergrad at UVic for anything. And let's remember that, as many people have said over and over, your MD quality is going to be consistant across Canada. So... look at the differences in the programs (% PBL for instance) and look at where you want to live, and for goodness sakes if you get accepted somewhere, be thankful! It's so freaking competitive to get in. Sorry to all you Saskatchewanites out there, but I honestly can't imagine choosing to live in Saskatchewan over somewhere else even if the "best" med school was there. Give me UBC (VFMP or IMP) and the west coast, baby!
And for whomever said that they've never heard of Macleans... wow. I'm impressed! It's all I heard about ad nauseum when a)choosing an undergrad school and b)choosing a med school and c)once I was accepted into med school (ie, "Congratulations! Isn't UBC ranked one of the best in the country?!" LOL).
So to the OP: Don't stress Apply wherever you think you have a chance of getting in, do your best, and when you don't get in the first time, apply again! I think the majority of students apply more than once(?). But I could be wrong. Maybe it's just the "sub-standard" crowd I'm a part of
Cheers!

 

[lil jon]

And as to the rumor - I know quite a bit of toronto students and yes...it's quite competitive. This might be wrong but i read that 60% of the students did ungergrad at u of t and if this is true, then the competitive rumor has to be true...friggin u of t...bah!!!

That's nice...you "know" people at UofT. Well, a second year student has already said his/her class isn't competitive and I will tell you that the first year class is not. Most people who propagate that rumour a)have no direct experience in the UofT MED system and/or b) were rejected by UofT. Yep, we're all keeners who never leave class and have no interest outside of medicine ... which is why our class alone had over 100 people at medgames this year despite 4 exams in the two-weeks that followed.

People DO try to do well and I'm not going to say the "H" isn't at the back of many people's minds, but the vast, vast majority of people in the class are not competitive and I can't think of a single incident this year in which competitiveness has negatively affected anyone. The best example of competition I can think of happens to be the now-legendary 1st vs 2nd year hot dog eating contest. I wonder how long it will take for someone, likely a Western student, to post the ridiculous suggestion that UofT grads are clinically incompetent upod graduation...

And while all Canadian schools will give you a great education, they aren't equal. The curriculum differs among schools, the available teaching sites differ, the research and extra-curricular opportunities differ etc. It's up to applicants to find, if they're lucky enough to have the choice, the mix that suits them best. I personally believe that if you know what you want to do, UofT is the place to be 99% of the time, and it's certainly the place to be if you have no idea what you want to do -- simply because of the unmatched clinical, research and international opportunities -- but I respect those whose opinions differ.

As for international students, UofT to my knowledge doesn't have 6 US citizens in the first year class. There are a bunch of people who did undergrad/grad school in the US or UK, but most if not all are Canadian citizens. It's simply a fact that other than McGill, few students from Canadian med schools go to the States for residency. To match in the NRMP would involve not matching in the 1st round of CaRMS or skipping CaRMS entirely, which few Canadian citizens would consider.

The bottom-line is that if you've recently found yourself with an acceptance letter, be happy and celebrate because you're lucky, you'll get a great education and your credit card will say Dr. _______ in a few years.

Edit: As for the CaRMS changes, nobody knows what the system will look like. The med deans proposed the parallel system, but they don't control the match, the province does. Until the province guarantees a parallel match and I see money for those parallel spots, I won't be happy. All current students should have received the CFMS email and position paper which describe the current uncertainty.

 

[arcticmonkeys]

First of all, about CARMS changes and Canada opening up first rounds for IMGs, the more I think about it the more suspicious it seems. My interpretation of this, anyway, comes from one of the letter/email things. the writer was saying how they initiated all this because IMGs were complaining that the second-round-for-IMG-rule may possibly be infringing upon their human rights.... so I'm guessing that the cdn gov needed to do something to shut them up, so they made this plan. whether or not it will actually by implemented efficiently and correctly also depends on the provincial funding, and you know how messed up that is depending on the current leadership and political party etc. those letter things also don't go into much detail at all about the actual procedures, meaning they probably don't even know what's going to happen yet. and admin work takes time to pass new legislation etc... anyway i think i'm way off topic....

I have another question though, in regards to IMG applicants to Cdn residencies... does anyone have any idea how successful Canadian-born-and-raised-and-went-to-foreign-medical-school(eg. Ireland, US, Caribs, Australia) are at these things?? Any stats?? Or are those who who match in Canada usually the older more experienced new immigrants who've practised medicine for decades?? (once again, off topic...)

 

[docbill]

I have another question though, in regards to IMG applicants to Cdn residencies... does anyone have any idea how successful Canadian-born-and-raised-and-went-to-foreign-medical-school(eg. Ireland, US, Caribs, Australia) are at these things?? Any stats?? Or are those who who match in Canada usually the older more experienced new immigrants who've practised medicine for decades?? (once again, off topic...)

Well.. I would guess a bit of both. But most likely leaning towards IMG-landed immigrants. Those are the people most likely to take positions in rural areas. Also the Progr directors, can get fully trained physician and pay them a resident salary. Kind of a bonus for them isn't it?