PhD/PsyD ASU DBH program

[DSMMad]

I just wanted to put this out there for those thinking they want to go into this program. From what I understand, this is NOT the same as becoming a clinical psychologist. This is an 18 month program with no clinical component that you are paying 80k for in order for someone to call you doctor. My company (and many others I know of) refuse to pay this degree any more then a masters level clinician. Big hospitals are not hiring this degree because it lacks the same depth as a Phd/PsyD. You do not get the recognition that you are expecting. Buyer beware!!! I’m seeing lots of people interested in this degree and they do not understand the difference! Sadly, when we see a therapist with this degree, there is a slight (sad and disheartened) eye roll because physicians/administrators know this is not a legitimate PhD/PsyD in quality or potential opportunity in pay grade. No disrespect meant to the incredible clinicians who pursued this degree but I do want to warn those who are buying into it— IT IS NOT THE SAME THING!

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[ClinicalABA]

...This is an 18 month program with no clinical component that you are paying 80k for in order for someone to call you doctor...

And in many jurisdictions referring to yourself as “doctor” while practicing with a masters level is considered practicing psychology without a license and is subject to fines and other discipline from the state board.

 

[Temperance]

Looking through their website, it looks like they are advertising "clinical" and "management" tracks, and the clinical track has a 400-hour internship that is open only to licensed master's-level clinicians. If I remember correctly, there was a poster several years ago who complained about receiving no support from the program for internship placement.

I'm confused as to the purpose of this degree program apart from being a cash cow for ASU. Disappointing to see ASU do this.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It's definitely an effective program for milking loan $'s in exchange for.....*crickets*.......

 

[foreverbull]

This is not too unlike the concept of a “doctor in marriage & family therapy” DMFT program that does NOT lead to licensure as a psychologist, but maybe master’s level practice with a doctorate (I think they require master’s level practice coming in). Which means....career no man’s land and a complete waste of money. Although side note, the reality show “Married at First Sight” featured a “relationship expert” whose credentials were, you guessed it, DMFT. I hope people don’t see that and think they’ll become consultants on TV shows one day. But they also featured a pastor and a sociologist as relationship experts, as well, so clearly this show was barking up the wrong tree on all fronts.

Anyway, it is horrifying that these types of programs aren’t cracked down on because they are extremely misleading and unclear to students who don’t understand the nuances of licensure and practice per state boards. They’re banking on this lack of knowledge and hoping students don’t realize that employers will have no idea what the degree means if they can’t seek licensure as a psychologist and they’ll get stuck doing some kind of job for far less income than they probably expected. The reality is, no one in our field and no employer cares if you’ve had more didactics in marriage and family therapy and a doctor in front of your name if you have no doctoral level license to show for it, and for good reason.

 

[Sanman]

The DBH program was pitched by Nicholas Cummings as the future alternative to a PhD/PsyD if I recall correctly. A lot of rhetoric, but no state licensure, so not useful.

 

[psych.meout]

The DBH program was pitched by Nicholas Cummings as the future alternative to a PhD/PsyD if I recall correctly. A lot of rhetoric, but no state licensure, so not useful.

Yup.

About Dr. Nicholas Cummings | Cummings Institute

Dr. Nicholas Cummings helped create the future of professional psychology. See his long list of published work and learn more...

cummingsinstitute.com

Nicholas A. Cummings, Ph.D., Sc.D., Founder | The Nicholas & Dorothy Cummings Foundation

' . get_bloginfo( 'description', 'display' ) . '

www.cummingsfoundation.com

Dr. Cummings is a visionary who, for half a century not only was able to foresee the future of professional psychology, but also helped create it.

Big yikes, bro.

 

[foreverbull]

Yup.

About Dr. Nicholas Cummings | Cummings Institute

Dr. Nicholas Cummings helped create the future of professional psychology. See his long list of published work and learn more...

cummingsinstitute.com

Nicholas A. Cummings, Ph.D., Sc.D., Founder | The Nicholas & Dorothy Cummings Foundation

' . get_bloginfo( 'description', 'display' ) . '

www.cummingsfoundation.com

Big yikes, bro.

I don’t know that working 2-3 full time jobs as his daughter asserts, seeing no less than 40-50 clients per week, and sleeping 3 hours per night should go in a professional bio. But then again, I’m not a fan of bragging about one’s accomplishments and bragging about a complete lack of work-life balance as if it’s a badge of honor. The way that second link bio is worded is really going overboard and sounds unprofessional, in my opinion. But maybe others aren’t so put-off by this and are impressed with his body of work, perhaps.

 

[foreverbull]

From a cursory glance at the program, it sounds like the focus is “integrated healthcare”/public health and entrepreneurship.

Per the Cummings Institute DBH program website:

“DBH Program Outcomes
Consult effectively with the medical team as a behavioral health expert using knowledge of medical culture and acute, chronic, and comorbid conditions.
Deliver evidence-based screening, assessment, and behavioral interventions appropriate for primary care and specialty medical settings.
Design cost-effective population health approaches to treating chronic and comorbid conditions while addressing social determinants of health.
Design and evaluate evidence based practice for behavioral conditions in medical settings based on principles of quality improvement.
Create a business case based on a population health approach to improving access to quality, integrated healthcare.”

My question is which board are you ”practicing” under if there’s no clinical component? Create a caseload that does what exactly? I’m not sure how this gets around state boards, but I don’t fundamentally understand what these graduates would actually do day-to-day because this description is vague yet sounds close to clinical psychology and/or public health nursing/administration.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

DBH at ASU

Hi Everyone, I'm currently having a problem. I'm in the first semester of the DBH program at ASU and I absolutely hate it. The lack of academic standards is shocking and certain professors are incredibly unprofessional. Is anyone else in this program? Am I the only one who feels this way? I...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[alnapier]

I just wanted to put this out there for those thinking they want to go into this program. From what I understand, this is NOT the same as becoming a clinical psychologist. This is an 18 month program with no clinical component that you are paying 80k for in order for someone to call you doctor. My company (and many others I know of) refuse to pay this degree any more then a masters level clinician. Big hospitals are not hiring this degree because it lacks the same depth as a Phd/PsyD. You do not get the recognition that you are expecting. Buyer beware!!! I’m seeing lots of people interested in this degree and they do not understand the difference! Sadly, when we see a therapist with this degree, there is a slight (sad and disheartened) eye roll because physicians/administrators know this is not a legitimate PhD/PsyD in quality or potential opportunity in pay grade. No disrespect meant to the incredible clinicians who pursued this degree but I do want to warn those who are buying into it— IT IS NOT THE SAME THING!

Who would go into a DBH program to be a Clinical Psychologist? Ironically there is a path for that, but it takes research and due diligence to pull it of. It sounds like many people in this post don't understand that the program is for hospital and program managers, not clinical psychology training. All DBH students are clinicians in multiple fields, looking for advanced training in Behavioral Health management or associated Clinical Therapy.

 

[alnapier]

From a cursory glance at the program, it sounds like the focus is “integrated healthcare”/public health and entrepreneurship.

Per the Cummings Institute DBH program website:

“DBH Program Outcomes
Consult effectively with the medical team as a behavioral health expert using knowledge of medical culture and acute, chronic, and comorbid conditions.
Deliver evidence-based screening, assessment, and behavioral interventions appropriate for primary care and specialty medical settings.
Design cost-effective population health approaches to treating chronic and comorbid conditions while addressing social determinants of health.
Design and evaluate evidence based practice for behavioral conditions in medical settings based on principles of quality improvement.
Create a business case based on a population health approach to improving access to quality, integrated healthcare.”

My question is which board are you ”practicing” under if there’s no clinical component? Create a caseload that does what exactly? I’m not sure how this gets around state boards, but I don’t fundamentally understand what these graduates would actually do day-to-day because this description is vague yet sounds close to clinical psychology and/or public health nursing/administration.

Why would go into a DBH program to be a Clinical Psychologist? It sounds like many people in this post do not understand that the program is for hospital and program managers, not clinical psychology training.

 

[WisNeuro]

I actually don't think there is a single person in this thread who is mistaking this for clinical psychology training. I do think, however, that they are curious as to what purpose this program serves, as this does not seem to be the type of program that would actually lead to getting hired into a leadership role. Looks like a money grab to most of us.

 

[Sanman]

Who would go into a DBH program to be a Clinical Psychologist? Ironically there is a path for that, but it takes research and due diligence to pull it of. It sounds like many people in this post don't understand that the program is for hospital and program managers, not clinical psychology training. All DBH students are clinicians in multiple fields, looking for advanced training in Behavioral Health management or associated Clinical Therapy.

Why not just get an MHA or MBA?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Why not just get an MHA or MBA?

...because inventing a new doctorate allows them to charge more money and make stuff up as they go...you know...like real scientists....

 

[WisNeuro]

How long has this degree/scam been running? Anyone ever seen anyone with this degree?

 

[iliketohelppeople]

Yup.

About Dr. Nicholas Cummings | Cummings Institute

Dr. Nicholas Cummings helped create the future of professional psychology. See his long list of published work and learn more...

cummingsinstitute.com

Nicholas A. Cummings, Ph.D., Sc.D., Founder | The Nicholas & Dorothy Cummings Foundation

' . get_bloginfo( 'description', 'display' ) . '

www.cummingsfoundation.com

Big yikes, bro.

That website is...quite a lot...I made the mistake of reading a couple of the other bios.

Super big yikes.

 

[psych.meout]

How long has this degree/scam been running? Anyone ever seen anyone with this degree?

Cummings (who just died about 2 weeks ago) wrote several articles about primary care mental health in the late-90s, including several where he devised the DBH as a new career path for practitioners. I guess because somehow PsyDs were too research-focused? It's been a while since I've read any of them and I'm not sure exactly when the degree started, but I think Arizona State University was the first to offer it.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Why would go into a DBH program to be a Clinical Psychologist? It sounds like many people in this post do not understand that the program is for hospital and program managers, not clinical psychology training.

Not sure we are looking at the same program. I just went to check it out and it definitely is (still) designed for practice. What type practice? Well, the type that requires a doctorate and concentrates on behavioral health. Hmmm... if there were only a field for that already.

Psychologists nested within primary care is very commonplace nowadays. To me, this is an online program masquerading as psychology and trying to take advantage of poorly-informed students (see my post above).