- Joined
- Dec 29, 2011
- Messages
- 3,454
- Reaction score
- 908
I wish psychology would change the lingo on the word "internship." It has too many other connotations. We should just make up a word, like practitionership.
Or "matchitionership"
I wish psychology would change the lingo on the word "internship." It has too many other connotations. We should just make up a word, like practitionership.
I wish psychology would change the lingo on the word "internship." It has too many other connotations. We should just make up a word, like practitionership.
Internship isn't an "arrange your own" thing in clinical psych doctoral programs. You go through a match system. Having connections helps, but it isn't guaranteed to get you one. Coming from an online program will be a huge liability for your chances of matching to an accredited internship (which, as others have said, you would need for a VA psychologist job).
however, they DID find something and are happy with what they have.
Yes, I understand the match system. I do have a good network, but as I mentioned in another post, I am certainly not going to rely on it as a "guarantee" - heck - I'm not even in a program yet The VA is not my only option either. I have never, and will never put all of my eggs in one basket - I wouldn't be where I am professionally if I did.
)
Doing everything "right" provides nothing but a chance at ending up okay. You still need to keep the debt down, attend an APA-acred. program & internship, complete a post-doc/fellowship (ideally in a speciality area), and pass the EPPP. At this point they now have an opportunity to make a decent living, have some flexibility, and have a shot at a nice career. Falling outside of this path will add hurdles, some of which are easier to navigate than others. The vast majority of posters on here are trying to watch out for prospective students because many don't know what they don't know.
This pretty much sums up what most people are trying to say nicely and is very true. The other thing to keep in mind is that VA positions are very competitive. I had a friend apply for a VA job (smaller suburban VA) that externed at that particular VA and knew the staff. She did not even interview. She asked her old supervisor the reason why and the answer was that there were 400 applications for 1 spot.
Tpizza: Do you know the difference between APA, APPIC and unaccredited internships? Those folks at walden get unpaid, unaccredited ones generally speaking. Do you know about the employment limitations of taking on an APPIC or unaccredited internship? What about the specific employment/licensure limitations from an unaccredited doctoral program? Do you know the specific requirements that every VA requires to land a predoctoral internship? Did you know that you can't work while completing the predoctoral internship and that many unaccredited positions are also unpaid (there are very few accredited ones that are part-time)?
You keep talking about the VA and having connections there. However, if you went to any online program (incl. walden, capella, etc), you would not even be able to apply there for a predoctoral internship because these programs are not accredited. If you graduated from either program, you would not be able to work there as a psychologist either. This is a national regulation at every VA. Again, this is a fact that others have pointed out. I am not trying to argue with you either, I am just hoping that you do more research, especially regarding the different internships.
Here is the VA national training website for psychologists where you can read about eligibility: http://www.psychologytraining.va.gov/eligibility.asp
Very similar to what i've heard. Even the VA postdocs out here cannot get a VA psychologist position. I know many previous VA interns and VA postdocs who could not get into the VA system afterwards as psychologists because the competition is so keen (most are near cities). The VA psychologists I know got into the VA system about 5 years post-degree or worked in a "less desirable" location first.
Anyhow, it's disturbing to hear people on this forum talk about how they will take out 200K in debt because they will just work for the federal government afterwards.
I'm already scrambling, knowing that my internship wont set me up for post-doc like I'd like.
Just out of curiosity, why did you decide to rank a non-APA site? I'm not judging at all (G-d knows the imbalance is awful all-around!), just wondering how you weighed the pros and cons and if you'd make that same choice in retrospect.
I have always jokingly said that the best test of EF is to ask the patient to put the Wisconsin cards back in order after the administration. Can't one criteria for critical thought be the weighing of financial reward vs financial risk and pros and cons....
Tpizza: Do you know the difference between APA, APPIC and unaccredited internships? Those folks at walden get unpaid, unaccredited ones generally speaking. Do you know about the employment limitations of taking on an APPIC or unaccredited internship? What about the specific employment/licensure limitations from an unaccredited doctoral program? Do you know the specific requirements that every VA requires to land a predoctoral internship? Did you know that you can't work while completing the predoctoral internship and that many unaccredited positions are also unpaid (there are very few accredited ones that are part-time)?
You keep talking about the VA and having connections there. However, if you went to any online program (incl. walden, capella, etc), you would not even be able to apply there for a predoctoral internship because these programs are not accredited. If you graduated from either program, you would not be able to work there as a psychologist either. This is a national regulation at every VA. Again, this is a fact that others have pointed out. I am not trying to argue with you either, I am just hoping that you do more research, especially regarding the different internships.
Here is the VA national training website for psychologists where you can read about eligibility: http://www.psychologytraining.va.gov/eligibility.asp
Doing everything "right" provides nothing but a chance at ending up okay. You still need to keep the debt down, attend an APA-acred. program & internship, complete a post-doc/fellowship (ideally in a speciality area), and pass the EPPP. At this point they now have an opportunity to make a decent living, have some flexibility, and have a shot at a nice career. Falling outside of this path will add hurdles, some of which are easier to navigate than others. The vast majority of posters on here are trying to watch out for prospective students because many don't know what they don't know.
I do fine financially right now, and I am not about looking for a bigger check, in fact I will be taking a loss once I fully transition into this field. But I am doing it anyway. Because I believe that is where I belong.
So, maybe a little help here? Because all I am getting so far it seems, is what not to do, or discouragement of entering an online program. Trust me - the minute I can afford to leave that job and still take care of my family, I will be applying to the b&m schools, but for right now, I am looking at other options.
That's a great position to be in. It must be nice.
My advice would be to wait for that minute you mentioned here.
I am sorry that you are feeling like people are throwing sand in your eyes. But I would also offer that sometimes people come to these forums with a loaded question. If they don't get the response that they were looking for, they get upset. Personally, I would advise anyone against attending an online program. That is my opinion. I am not going to sugarcoat it.
You ultimately have to make the best decision for you, as you alluded to. But at least you have information about a) outcomes for the program, b) cost compared to other options, and c) how people in the field perceive these programs (very negatively). If all of that is okay with you, then so be it.
Please understand that we're not trying to be mean. The people responding to you in this thread are mostly students and young professionals in psychology who have seen this process play out. I understand wanting to get into a clinical psych program so badly, I really do. I was in that place myself once. However, we're often so focused on getting in that we don't think about what lies on the other side. I'm speaking as an incoming fifth year who will be applying for internship for the first time. And I am so completely anxious about it, even though my program has a good APA-accred match rate. I can't imagine how I would feel if I were in a program where the statistical odds of matching were completely against my favor.
HI Tpizza:
I commend you for trying to increase your knowledge base and wanting to help your patients. I am pretty confident that you would learn more by attending workshops by experts in the field (The VA will even cover some of these) and also paying for supervision if necessary, than by attending an online program. It will also be significantly less costly than 100K tuition. For example, you can attend a 10-day intensive DBT workshop with Marsha Linehan et al. (the person who created the treatment), and I believe get ongoing supervision afterwards and join a free consultation group in DBT in your location. That is just one example. You will never get this type of quality and depth of training via online program.
Secondly, if licensure is even a secondary goal, you will face an uphill battle with both an unaccredited program + unaccredited internship (which is almost a sure bet when you attend an unaccredited program). You know this stuff already. For what it's worth, I have never met a licensed psychologist in PP or in any setting who got licensed with an online degree. Maybe others have? I have one distant relative who completed a distance education PhD program in psychology approximately 15 years ago. She is still not licensed and is not able to work in the field (fortunately, spouse is supporting her).
Unfortunately, we can't give you an exact percentage of how much risk you are taking since Walden/Capella DO NOT report any licensure rates on their websites. I would presume that the licensure rate is very low otherwise they would report it (like all programs do). Anyhow, if you are willing to take the risk, go ahead.
Here are some online reviews from walden students. Sometimes positive reviews online are also written by the program though: http://www.onlinedegreereviews.org/college/walden-university-reviews/psychology-1331/reviews/
Just out of curiosity, why did you decide to rank a non-APA site? I'm not judging at all (G-d knows the imbalance is awful all-around!), just wondering how you weighed the pros and cons and if you'd make that same choice in retrospect.
many post docs just wont accept a non-apa internship. And why should they? It's an easy way to eliminate presumably the lower half of the applicants.
If you go into internship with a goal to build that network you will find your way. And the Affordable Care Act is going to inevitably generate more primary care jobs. And everyone needs to sleep. Current work on bipolar disorder, for example, puts a lot of emphasis on this and you could start networking through university and med center sites that treat these conditions (Cal and Stanford are the ones I know but they have to have similar programs across the country). Health care systems like Kaiser do not require APA internship for post-docs. Your experience and attitude are the key factors in what comes next.
I was reading this thread because I too am considering getting a DBH from ASU. I decided to respond in this thread due to my positive experiences with online education, specifically Capella University's Masters of Science in Mental Health Counseling, I will graduate 6/14/13 and after finishing my first field work course Practicum, I was offered a paid internship from the same site, and more recently offered a salaried position which will start 7/1/13 if I accept it. I have an interview with another agency in my area, have also been working with a local psychologist and the board of directors of a new hospital in my area on developing a mental health unit at their facility, and discussed the possibility of private practice with a MD and Nurse Practitioner after I complete the required hours for my LPC.
Currently I am part of an interdisciplinary treatment team which works with individual's with intellectual disabilities in a state ran federally funded residential facility. The psychiatrists' who visit our facility are contracted and make the majority of their psychiatric medication decision based on the feedback and suggestions of the mental health staff. In order to be the director of the facility an individual must hold a doctoral level degree in a relevant field. The state board informed the current director they would recognize ASU's DBH as long as the applicant had significant experience dealing with the population entrusted in the facilities care. I do not want to be a psychologist, but believe the DBH would make me a more rounded behavioral health care provider due to the exposure it potentially provides on the medical side of health care. I also think the DBH would provide me with beneficial information if I decided to go the private practice route!
I am 35 years old and started investing in real estate 12 years ago with no money of my own and my family was poor will I was growing up. I currently do not reside in California but the real estate bubble had no impact on my investments there which will pay themselves off in the next 13 years. Therefore, the cost of an educational program will not influence my decision. Successful people have drive, determination, dedication, and motivation and will not allow the negativity of others who fear change stand in their way! Any comments, suggestions, or concerns will be greatly appreciated and my sole mission is to provide the best services for the clients I work with. P.S. I may not be able to practice at a VA by using "Dr." at the beginning of my name if I tried to obtain employment there, but the LPC-MH would do the trick!
I wish psychology would change the lingo on the word "internship." It has too many other connotations. We should just make up a word, like practitionership.
I was reading this thread because I too am considering getting a DBH from ASU. I decided to respond in this thread due to my positive experiences with online education, specifically Capella University's Masters of Science in Mental Health Counseling, I will graduate 6/14/13 and after finishing my first field work course Practicum, I was offered a paid internship from the same site, and more recently offered a salaried position which will start 7/1/13 if I accept it. I have an interview with another agency in my area, have also been working with a local psychologist and the board of directors of a new hospital in my area on developing a mental health unit at their facility, and discussed the possibility of private practice with a MD and Nurse Practitioner after I complete the required hours for my LPC.
Currently I am part of an interdisciplinary treatment team which works with individual's with intellectual disabilities in a state ran federally funded residential facility. The psychiatrists' who visit our facility are contracted and make the majority of their psychiatric medication decision based on the feedback and suggestions of the mental health staff. In order to be the director of the facility an individual must hold a doctoral level degree in a relevant field. The state board informed the current director they would recognize ASU's DBH as long as the applicant had significant experience dealing with the population entrusted in the facilities care. I do not want to be a psychologist, but believe the DBH would make me a more rounded behavioral health care provider due to the exposure it potentially provides on the medical side of health care. I also think the DBH would provide me with beneficial information if I decided to go the private practice route!
I am 35 years old and started investing in real estate 12 years ago with no money of my own and my family was poor will I was growing up. I currently do not reside in California but the real estate bubble had no impact on my investments there which will pay themselves off in the next 13 years. Therefore, the cost of an educational program will not influence my decision. Successful people have drive, determination, dedication, and motivation and will not allow the negativity of others who fear change stand in their way! Any comments, suggestions, or concerns will be greatly appreciated and my sole mission is to provide the best services for the clients I work with. P.S. I may not be able to practice at a VA by using "Dr." at the beginning of my name if I tried to obtain employment there, but the LPC-MH would do the trick!
...Also, many psychologists (and other psychotherapists) know little about chronic physical illness and how this affects their mental health, or know of very little effective interventions to help their mental health while coping with such physical illness....
There are at least two more options:Like many here on this forum I'm a masters level clinician graduated from a CACREP program and seeking a next step in academics. There are really only two choices that make sense to me. PhD in counseling, or something similar to this DBH program. I doubt I'll be seeking tenure as a professor and don't wish to spend 4-5 years with several doing research.
Also, many psychologists (and other psychotherapists) know little about chronic physical illness and how this affects their mental health, or know of very little effective interventions to help their mental health while coping with such physical illness.
Likewise, MD's know very little about effective phsychotherapeutic interventions to help their patients to evoke the behavioral changes necessary to reduce their patient's symptoms of chronic illness; pain management, diabetes, heart disease, obesity all have complicated lifestyle components.
...if a client has a breakdown in the exam room they can be walked down the hall to an in-house therapist (consider mental health parity).
I am not having the same experience at all, so I thought I would put in my 2 cents for anyone who would like to know another perspective.
It is no different than other fields offering professional doctoral degrees, such as DrPH. And the program is going away from the Biodyne Model as Cummings is no longer affiliated with the program as of December 2014. The program will ASUs alone and the curriculum is strong on integrating knowledge and training in behavioral health and behavioral medicine.
I was considering other programs, notably the PhD, but as I wanted more applied clinical training in primary care (where I did half of my Master's internship), I chose this program over other research based programs. I cannot express how much I have learned. It is online, but the internship is obviously in the clinic. We also have to implement a behavioral health program on a population and test its effects on patients. All of my classes have weekly skype-like real time lecutres and then recorded lectures that run anywhere from 3-6 hours per week, in addition to other assignments (recorded patient sessions, papers, etc.). Tests are open book, obviously, but are timed and are not merely recall... We have to apply what we have learned in a way that shows we are integrating the material in a clinical manner.
Why is the degree important when we can practice under our Master's level licensure? Why is a PsyD? You can practice under the Masters, so why invest in further doctoral studies with any degree? Because we are learning our specific field in depth. I could work in integrated care with my masters, but I would not be able to do it well and at the level I will now be able perform after my advanced training. Mental health psychologists and counselors rarely learn anything medically related, but we do. We have classes similar to behavioral medicine programs that teach medical disease and etiology, in addition to the behavioral health treatments for those diseases (diabetes, hypertension, cancer, obesity, etc.).
Just because it is new, does not make it a joke or bad. Just my opinion, and I understand yours. I had the same concerns when considering this program. But then again, the PsyD was once brand new (and that was pioneered by Cummings as well). The DrPH was brand new once. Even the M.D. is fairly new considering the legitimacy and respect given to medical doctors only began in the last century.
I am not having the same experience at all, so I thought I would put in my 2 cents for anyone who would like to know another perspective.
It is no different than other fields offering professional doctoral degrees, such as DrPH. And the program is going away from the Biodyne Model as Cummings is no longer affiliated with the program as of December 2014. The program will ASUs alone and the curriculum is strong on integrating knowledge and training in behavioral health and behavioral medicine.
I was considering other programs, notably the PhD, but as I wanted more applied clinical training in primary care (where I did half of my Master's internship), I chose this program over other research based programs. I cannot express how much I have learned. It is online, but the internship is obviously in the clinic. We also have to implement a behavioral health program on a population and test its effects on patients. All of my classes have weekly skype-like real time lecutres and then recorded lectures that run anywhere from 3-6 hours per week, in addition to other assignments (recorded patient sessions, papers, etc.). Tests are open book, obviously, but are timed and are not merely recall... We have to apply what we have learned in a way that shows we are integrating the material in a clinical manner.
Why is the degree important when we can practice under our Master's level licensure? Why is a PsyD? You can practice under the Masters, so why invest in further doctoral studies with any degree? Because we are learning our specific field in depth. I could work in integrated care with my masters, but I would not be able to do it well and at the level I will now be able perform after my advanced training. Mental health psychologists and counselors rarely learn anything medically related, but we do. We have classes similar to behavioral medicine programs that teach medical disease and etiology, in addition to the behavioral health treatments for those diseases (diabetes, hypertension, cancer, obesity, etc.).
Just because it is new, does not make it a joke or bad. Just my opinion, and I understand yours. I had the same concerns when considering this program. But then again, the PsyD was once brand new (and that was pioneered by Cummings as well). The DrPH was brand new once. Even the M.D. is fairly new considering the legitimacy and respect given to medical doctors only began in the last century.
I am curious why Cummings will no longer be affiliated with the program.And the program is going away from the Biodyne Model as Cummings is no longer affiliated with the program as of December 2014.
So your Ph.D. enables you to work as a masters-level clincian.... for masters level pay I would assume, right? Uh, Congratulations?
PS: I have a phd in clinical and obviously learned a thing or two about medical/health psychology and work in primary care. All my labs grants were devoted to health psychology topics, in fact. There is a whole APA divison voted to what you are describing. Division 38. So dont come on here touting that your training is rare snowflake. Its not.
For a psychologist, you're kind of an dingus... sweet pea. I was just sharing my experience. I am sure you are a psychological genius, but I doubt you know all there is to know about integrated care. There are a lot of choices out there, a lot to learn, and apparently, current programs are not meeting the need. Which I am sure you already know, as you probably keep up on the research. But if it makes you feel better to tear others down because they do not subscribe to your beliefs on what is needed or worthy, then maybe you should seek some counseling of your own.
As the saying goes... If we both belief and think exactly the same, one of us is not needed.
I can't speak for counselors, but as erg mentioned, I can say that it seems to be the rule rather than the exception for folks in clinical (and I would imaging counseling) psych programs to learn medically-relevant information and practice in medical settings (e.g., primary care). This would be supported by the increasing numbers of doctoral programs I'm seeing with a focus on medical/health psych (e.g., UAB, UNT, UTSW, Southern Miss.), the increasing number of primary care and other health-related (e.g., HIV/Hep C) postdocs, and the increasing numbers of psychologists working in primary care mental health integrated roles.
Also, it's long been discussed on this board that the perhaps formerly-true stereotype of the PhD being almost entirely research-oriented is false, as many/most programs nowadays are balanced, and subsequently the average Ph.D. internship applicant has as much clinical experience as the average Psy.D. internship applicant. Additionally, the majority of folks graduating with Ph.D.'s go on to primarily or solely clinical careers. However, I would agree that Ph.D. programs are very research-based in that they require direct participation in the scientific/research process for the purposes of directly informing future professional activities (including clinical work).
Dingus is not something you hear everyday. Good one.
This has nothing to do with "beliefs" about anything, darlin...
Your program gives you a doctorate in something that does not exist. You went into the program as an LCSW or MFT or LPC and you will hired as the same. Thats not belief, its a fact. Why? Cause nobody knows what the **** a "doctor of behavioral health" is? Thats a psychologist to most employers. But, no, you're not a psychologist. The prorgam isn' t filling a "need." Its marketing.
Dingus is not something you hear everyday. Good one.
This has nothing to do with "beliefs" about anything, darlin...
Your program gives you a doctorate in something that does not exist. You went into the program as an LCSW or MFT or LPC and you will hired as the same. Thats not belief, its a fact. Why? Cause nobody knows what the **** a "doctor of behavioral health" is? Thats a psychologist to most employers. But, no, you're not a psychologist. The prorgam isn' t filling a "need." Its marketing.
Dingus is not something you hear everyday. Good one.
This has nothing to do with "beliefs" about anything, darlin...
Your program gives you a doctorate in something that does not exist. You went into the program as an LCSW or MFT or LPC and you will hired as the same. Thats not belief, its a fact. Why? Cause nobody knows what the **** a "doctor of behavioral health" is? Thats a psychologist to most employers. But, no, you're not a psychologist. The prorgam isn' t filling a "need." Its marketing.
And please do not address me as "darlin"... You sound like an immature, sexist, narcissist.
My program does not claim to make psychologists. And it does exists... Know how I know? I am actually in it right now! Unless I am hallucinating?? Hmm... Thanks anyway. Your posts reek of entitlement with a slight whiff of low self-esteem... covered with arrogance like a cheap cologne.
To be fair, you did call him "sweet pea" first. Both terms of endearment sounded pretty belittling to me.
I dont know everything about integrated care, no, but I don't think we need to sell as this grand and wondferful thing that requires a whole new degree. I am still a psychologist. And thats what my clinic wants. That what my clinic needs, first a foremost. Yes, to be maximally effective, I must tailor my practice to the setting, and must be well informed on medical conditions and their psycholgical sequela. But most of all, I just need to be a good psychologist and clinician. Assessment (whether quick and dirties or organ transplant psychological evaluations), diagnostics, AD/HD evals/screens, brief interventions, traige, consultation. Thats what they need. Fitting into the culture and model of primary care isn't all that hard. It takes some mentoring and getting used to, but a doctorate in "integrated care?" Paaaa-lease.