DBH at ASU

[razo001]

Hi Everyone,

I'm currently having a problem. I'm in the first semester of the DBH program at ASU and I absolutely hate it. The lack of academic standards is shocking and certain professors are incredibly unprofessional. Is anyone else in this program? Am I the only one who feels this way? I am considering leaving the program. I was interested in integrated care, but it doesn't seem like this program is legit. Any feedback or help is appreciated.

Thanks

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[DynamicDidactic]

Can you tell us a little more about the program and what you do not like about it? When I read about it a few years ago I was very skeptical. What have recent graduate gone on to do?

 

[razo001]

Where do I start...I'll PM you the specifics. Overall, I'm dissatisfied with the structure of the courses, particular model that they emphasize and the lack of guidance.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

If you feel anonymous enough, you might think about posting about the program here on the forum. Others, who are considering the program, can benefit from your knowledge. Some of us, who are currently students in traditional doctoral programs in psychology, will be curious to see what is going on in that program as well.

 

[JeyRo]

Hi Everyone,

I'm currently having a problem. I'm in the first semester of the DBH program at ASU and I absolutely hate it. The lack of academic standards is shocking and certain professors are incredibly unprofessional. Is anyone else in this program? Am I the only one who feels this way? I am considering leaving the program. I was interested in integrated care, but it doesn't seem like this program is legit. Any feedback or help is appreciated.

Thanks

I'm a dummy. What's DBH? And is ASU Arizona State University?

 

[erg923]

Um, "Doctor of Behavioral Health?" Never heard of one...

With all due respect, why would you enroll in a doctoral program for a career/position/field that doesn't actually exist....so far as I am aware anyway? And kinda seems like I of all people would have heard of this/them since I'm a psychologist and all, ya know.

 

[JeyRo]

Um, "Doctor of Behavioral Health?" Never heard of one...

With all due respect, why would you enroll in a doctoral program for a career/position/field that doesn't actually exist....so far as I am aware anyway? And kinda seems like I of all people would have heard of this/them since I'm a psychologist and all, ya know.

Ah..... http://asuonline.asu.edu/dbh

 

[erg923]

From: https://sls.asu.edu/bh/faqs
"The DBH program will initially only be open to students with an existing master's degree in behavioral health and a current license to practice. This will ensure that if doctoral licensure is not yet available for graduates in their state they may still be able to practice and receive reimbursement under their existing master's degree license."

Holy ****! We will charge you $50,000 to get a degree that nobody knows about, nobody recognizes, you cant practice with, and in no way increases your earning potential. What a cash cow!!! That is seriously unfreaking believable.

 

[JeyRo]

Hi Everyone,

I'm currently having a problem. I'm in the first semester of the DBH program at ASU and I absolutely hate it. The lack of academic standards is shocking and certain professors are incredibly unprofessional. Is anyone else in this program? Am I the only one who feels this way? I am considering leaving the program. I was interested in integrated care, but it doesn't seem like this program is legit. Any feedback or help is appreciated.

Thanks

If you've only been there one semester you haven't sunk too much $$$ in it yet. I would say probably pull out now, don't fall prey to the "sunk costs" fallacy.

[edit, seeing erg's post]

You already have a masters degree? What are you doing at this program? Just curious - why would someone get a DBH?

 

[JeyRo]

Holy ****! We will charge you $50,000 to get a degree that nobody knows about, nobody recognizes, you cant practice with, and in no way increases your earning potential. What a cash cow!!! That is seriously unfreaking believable.

Clearly we're all in the wrong line of work.

 

[razo001]

I originally intended to enroll in this program so I can work in an integrated care setting. I'm very interested in it. It was flexible and unlike other online programs it was linked to a legit university. It was flexible and from what I heard from the few students who went there it's a good program. I regret enrolling in this program now.

 

[erg923]

I originally intended to enroll in this program so I can work in an integrated care setting.

What would you do there?

 

[ela]

Isnt this Nick Cummings (early Kaiser chief of mental health and former APA president) big idea? I recall reading a few papers of his detailing the future role of mental health providers in integrated care, especially bachelors and masters level trainees.

 

[erg923]

There is little doubt that psychology is and needs to move more in that direction. I am lost as to why people think this requires a separate degree/training program, however.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

There is little doubt that psychology is and needs to move more in that direction. I am lost as to why people think this requires a separate degree/training program, however.

Many existing (APA-accredited, with tenured faculty, licensure-bound) programs are already moving in that direction. I'm not sure why a new program is needed, either. Maybe if it filled a new niche, but it doesn't seem to do that. I hope the OP offers some insight into the program. I'm genuinely curious.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I first heard of the DBH in 09 or so, at the time it appeared to be a way of getting a doctorate that is akin to clinical psychology without all the hassles of clinical psychology. Since then I also realized its another Nicholas Cummings get-rich/sell-the-field-down-the-river scheme.
http://thecummingsfoundation.org/programs-partnership/doctor-of-behavioral-health

Here is another thread about the program
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=907638

However, I really would like to know more details about the program.

 

[razo001]

I first heard of the DBH in 09 or so, at the time it appeared to be a way of getting a doctorate that is akin to clinical psychology without all the hassles of clinical psychology. Since then I also realized its another Nicholas Cummings get-rich/sell-the-field-down-the-river scheme.
http://thecummingsfoundation.org/programs-partnership/doctor-of-behavioral-health

Here is another thread about the program
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=907638

However, I really would like to know more details about the program.

That right there sums it up.

I'm not a fan of the biodyne model - I really can't believe how other students buy into it. The fact that tests are "open book", given to us three months before it's due, and students are encouraged to use any resource except fellow students (let that sink in for a minute) is ridiculous. I'm kicking myself in the #$% for entering this program and wasting money. Hopefully anyone else thinking about entering this program will think twice and not make the same mistake that I did. I will definitely be leaving after this semester. I just wanted to see if anyone was currently in this program and felt the same way.

 

[bmedclinic]

Can you tell us a little more about the program and what you do not like about it? When I read about it a few years ago I was very skeptical. What have recent graduate gone on to do?

I too heard about this program a few years ago, as I am partly in integrated primary care. I too was excessively skeptical and am sad to hear this program (for you) is what I feared it would be. If the OP has any questions about integrated primary care, feel free to pm me.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

This biodyne model is something Cummings came up with and no one has ever heard of it.

 

[Neuropsych2be]

Isnt this Nick Cummings (early Kaiser chief of mental health and former APA president) big idea? I recall reading a few papers of his detailing the future role of mental health providers in integrated care, especially bachelors and masters level trainees.

Yeah this is Nick Cummings' baby. I think the whole idea of a DBH, like many of Cumming's ideas is downright idiotic. I remember when Nick was highly influential in the field. Fortunately he is a bit of a dinosaur these days. The idea of a BDH is a solution for a problem that does not exist especially given that psychology is moving towards integrated care anyway. Of course, I even hate the name of this degree. I hate the way insurance language like "provider" and "behavioral health" have insinuated themselves into the English language. We are psychologists (in training) not "behavioral health providers" dammit!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Yeah this is Nick Cummings' baby. I think the whole idea of a DBH, like many of Cumming's ideas is downright idiotic. I remember when Nick was highly influential in the field. Fortunately he is a bit of a dinosaur these days. The idea of a BDH is a solution for a problem that does not exist especially given that psychology is moving towards integrated care anyway. Of course, I even hate the name of this degree. I hate the way insurance language like "provider" and "behavioral health" have insinuated themselves into the English language. We are psychologists (in training) not "behavioral health providers" dammit!

That means the person can be non-doctoral level, be from one of many disciplines, and do one of many interchangeable jobs. This kind of language is what really eats away at why a psychologist (or whatever speciality) is needed. Now a "behavioral health provider" with an AA or BA or maybe an MS can do most of what we do and more....for much less and with much less training.

As for this degree...it is a joke based on everything I read about it on the ASU website and in the news. The curriculum is weak, the lack of rigor in the training is evident, and the fact it is a "doctorate" is insulting to every legitimate program out there. The online aspect is just the icing on the cake. How does a student LEARN anything to do with behavioral health sitting behind a computer? Where are graduates going to work (doing clinical work) that they couldn't work before? I don't know of a license associated specifically with this degree.

raz001: I think you are rightfully concerned about the program, as it has all sorts of red flags.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Yeah this is Nick Cummings' baby. I think the whole idea of a DBH, like many of Cumming's ideas is downright idiotic. I remember when Nick was highly influential in the field. Fortunately he is a bit of a dinosaur these days. The idea of a BDH is a solution for a problem that does not exist especially given that psychology is moving towards integrated care anyway. Of course, I even hate the name of this degree. I hate the way insurance language like "provider" and "behavioral health" have insinuated themselves into the English language. We are psychologists (in training) not "behavioral health providers" dammit!

I agree. Reading the description of the degree in one of the links provided above, it basically sounds like it's aiming to do exactly what a primary care fellowship would prepare you to do, but without the solid foundation in general clinical psychology to go along with it.

 

[razo001]

What I don't understand is why ASU would associate themselves with such a program. I consider ASU to be a legitimate institution with pretty good programs.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

What I don't understand is why ASU would associate themselves with such a program. I consider ASU to be a legitimate institution with pretty good programs.

This is complete conjecture on my part, but perhaps Cummings did a good job of selling the idea which, when combined with his credentials, convinced ASU to give it a go? Although it's technically housed in a separate school, right? So maybe that was a way of minimizing the risk associated with it.

The idea itself (i.e., integrating behavioral health into primary care settings) makes sense, hence why primary care fellowships exist. But if you aren't a psych person, you might not know that those avenues were already available.

 

[tpizza01]

There is little doubt that psychology is and needs to move more in that direction. I am lost as to why people think this requires a separate degree/training program, however.

I've been looking at this area for some time now. My wife is an RN and I have a few Doctor friends as well who all claim that there is a huge disconnect between the fields. The big problem is that even if they do integrate psychologists into primary care, what will be the extent of their biological knowledge. I started looking at this program well over a year ago. As a maste'rs level clinician I am fine, but I want to learn more, and become a licensed psychologist, but going to a traditional school is not likely in the cards for me (or my family). I also don't want to be stuck doing research for five years - I'm a practitioner. Anyway, knowing the disconnect that exists, this program was appealing. I think it's importnat to have that knowledge though, especially in an integrated setting. I look at this program this way: If there are no schools that teach their clinical/counseling psychs anythign about the integrated setting, then why not make one that does.

However, there is a reason why I have been very hesitant on this program and I think it's because of a lack of information. I've tried to reach out to a few grads and so far I have gotten nothing. I was glad to come across this thread, but I am still not convinced by only one person's thoughts.

In a way, I think it's unfair for us to bash a program that really hasn't had a chance to be heard, or tested for that matter. This could lead somewhere; maybe he is on to something. With some tweaking and further development, this program might be a respectable branch of behavioral health.

 

[tpizza01]

That right there sums it up.

I'm not a fan of the biodyne model - I really can't believe how other students buy into it. The fact that tests are "open book", given to us three months before it's due, and students are encouraged to use any resource except fellow students (let that sink in for a minute) is ridiculous. I'm kicking myself in the #$% for entering this program and wasting money. Hopefully anyone else thinking about entering this program will think twice and not make the same mistake that I did. I will definitely be leaving after this semester. I just wanted to see if anyone was currently in this program and felt the same way.

I was wondering if you can give more info on the ins and outs of this program. Any positives at all? Have you spoken to anyone who has had a good experience?

 

[erg923]

If there are no schools that teach their clinical/counseling psychs anythign about the integrated setting, then why not make one that does.

Who said they dont? I had plenty of practicum experience where this happened and if your program has a health psych emphasis area (or even a class) you get it there too. Why do we need to invent new degrees? As far as research goes, I think this is an area where one needs to be a very good consumer and critic of empirical outcome research. Thus, I don't think working as psychological practitioner in these settings is appropriate for someone who isn't willing to get schooled in the science and data behind it all.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Who said they dont? I had plenty of practicum experience where this happened and if your program has a health psych emphasis area (or even a class) you get it there too. Why do we need to invent new degrees? As far as research goes, I think this is an area where one needs to be a very good consumer and critic of empirical outcome research. Thus, I dont think working as psychological practitioner in these setting is appropriate for someone who isn't willing to get school in the science and data behind it all.

I agree. There are definitely programs that have a have a health psych emphasis where you are literally trained to work in primary and integrated care.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I've been looking at this area for some time now. My wife is an RN and I have a few Doctor friends as well who all claim that there is a huge disconnect between the fields. The big problem is that even if they do integrate psychologists into primary care, what will be the extent of their biological knowledge.

These days most/all of those positions are being filled by psychologists w. specialized training in the areas of health and/or primary care. There are classes, rotations, and fellowships in these areas...so they should be well equipped to handle the knowledge. If the hospital is affiliated w. a medical school, the providers may teach in those programs and be much more of an asset because of their specific training as a psychologist and then their specialized training they received during internship, fellowship, etc.

As for this program....the training looks atrocious and they are trying to invent a new degree to address an area that already has a group of experts to do the work.

 

[tpizza01]

These days most/all of those positions are being filled by psychologists w. specialized training in the areas of health and/or primary care. There are classes, rotations, and fellowships in these areas...so they should be well equipped to handle the knowledge. If the hospital is affiliated w. a medical school, the providers may teach in those programs and be much more of an asset because of their specific training as a psychologist and then their specialized training they received during internship, fellowship, etc.

As for this program....the training looks atrocious and they are trying to invent a new degree to address an area that already has a group of experts to do the work.

Agreed. And thanks for the replies. After doing some more follow up, I am finding that this program is indeed a way to try something new to make a fast buck. I think if anything I would be paying for the appeal of a different title that might or might not go over well with whatever company I chose to work with - most likely being my own after what I assume would be many rejections. It seemed like somethign to look into though, andd I am glad I did. Sad thing is, I still have not heard anythign back from the email I sent them a while ago asking for specific information.

So on those notes, and since I have you all here - maybe you can help me. My main intention was to go with a clinical psych program. I am drawn toward health psyh also, which a couple of you have mentioned here, but I ultimately am looking ot pursue licensure. The problem? I am 40 and have a well paying job with the government, as well as a family to support. this is not a bad thing, but it is if I want go to a good program. UVA and VCU are both about 50 miles from my house, and I would take either of their programs - but quitting my job and going to school full time is just not an option (and there are many reasons other ethan just a good job). I have researched and researched over the last year and a half to find a school that is suitable for my needs that at the same time will allow me to thrive as the hardworking student that I am. I make the most of my learning experience, no matter how ****ty it may be. Living in Virginia, I am not required to have an APA program but I do have to meet the educational requirements set forth in the following: http://www.dhp.virginia.gov/Forms/psychology/psychologist/Exam/Exam_Area_GraduateStudy.doc
(Form 6)

So, knowing my limitations, what do you see as options? I really only see the online/hybrid option as the way to go, and to be honest, I don't fear getting an internship, especially in this area. NoVA is loaded with menatl health outlets and I have quite a few friends in the area that can help me with this.

Before I mention any school choices, I need to say that I have been in both the traditional school environment and online formats, and I must say that while both have their advantages and disadvantages, I found the online format to be more diffcult but in many ways more rewarding. I also foudn that I learned more in that environment. I am not sure if this is because I am very disciplined (perhaps from being prior military) or because the envrionment is just improving. It may be a combination of both. I feel the online environment faces a terrible stigma and is undervalued - especially by those in positions of authority who have no experience with it. I haev much more on this, but again, I am not trying to spark debate on online v trad - just needed to put that out there.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

As a maste'rs level clinician I am fine, but I want to learn more, and become a licensed psychologist, but going to a traditional school is not likely in the cards for me (or my family). I also don't want to be stuck doing research for five years - I'm a practitioner.

Becoming a licensed psychologist is not the only way to learn more, though the devil is in the details. See below.

I am drawn toward health psyh also, which a couple of you have mentioned here, but I ultimately am looking ot pursue licensure. The problem? I am 40 and have a well paying job with the government, as well as a family to support. this is not a bad thing, but it is if I want go to a good program. UVA and VCU are both about 50 miles from my house, and I would take either of their programs - but quitting my job and going to school full time is just not an option (and there are many reasons other ethan just a good job).

What about health psych? What do you want to do for a day-to-day job? Are there other paths that let you do this that do not include becoming a psychologist that specializes in health psych/primary care/etc? Health psychologists can do a lot of things within healthcare, but so can other types of jobs. What specifically do you want to do....bariatric/transplant assessment? Wellness education? etc. I don't know a ton of things specific to health psych, but those are a couple of things I have seen our's do.

So, knowing my limitations, what do you see as options? I really only see the online/hybrid option as the way to go, and to be honest, I don't fear getting an internship, especially in this area. NoVA is loaded with menatl health outlets and I have quite a few friends in the area that can help me with this.

To be a clinical psychologist who specializes in health psych will take 6-8 years and it will require you to go to school full-time for at least 5-6 of those years (FT 3yr classes, FT 1yr internship, FT 1-2yr fellowship). That is the path if you want to be a clinical psychologist and work in health psych. There really is no way around that, which is why I asked if there are other options to get you where you want to go.

Getting an internship (whether it is at the MA/MS or Ph.D./Psy.D/Ed.D. level) is competitive. NoVa is a very competitive area, with NYC/Boston/SF/LA/CHI as the only places probably more competitive. You really want to avoid the "post-doc trap", which too many students fall into....they have a degree but no solid way to get enough supervised hours to get licensed. This happens at the MA/MS level too....so it often can take 2-3 years for the person to accrue enough (unpaid..and often YOU paying for supervision) hours to get licensed.

If you already have an MA/MS and are licensed...stick with that and do continuing ed credits and seminars to scratch that itch. If you don't have any licenseable degree, then consider going part-time, at a state school, and knowing it will take 3-5 year or more to be fully licensed and practicing. This can be a very rewarding path, cost less, and let you get into the field much more quickly. All of the extra hoops required to be a clinical psychologist are rather prohibitive for most people these days (when they objectively weigh the cost v. benefit of it all).

Trust me when I say that online training is not the way to go for ANY degree, let alone one related to mental health or healthcare. The stigma is too great, the training variability too much, and frankly...they are far too expensive for what you get.

 

[tpizza01]

Becoming a licensed psychologist is not the only way to learn more, though the devil is in the details. See below.

What about health psych? What do you want to do for a day-to-day job? Are there other paths that let you do this that do not include becoming a psychologist that specializes in health psych/primary care/etc? Health psychologists can do a lot of things within healthcare, but so can other types of jobs. What specifically do you want to do....bariatric/transplant assessment? Wellness education? etc. I don't know a ton of things specific to health psych, but those are a couple of things I have seen our's do.

To be a clinical psychologist who specializes in health psych will take 6-8 years and it will require you to go to school full-time for at least 5-6 of those years (FT 3yr classes, FT 1yr internship, FT 1-2yr fellowship). That is the path if you want to be a clinical psychologist and work in health psych. There really is no way around that, which is why I asked if there are other options to get you where you want to go.

I understand the length of time a program will take, that's not the issue. I am also understadnign that a specialization will add on more time. I'm uncertain about the health psych route but I do enjoy the connection between mind-body and think I would do well in that area. My first thought is to add CE in the area afterward though, because there are other areas that I also enjoy.

Getting an internship (whether it is at the MA/MS or Ph.D./Psy.D/Ed.D. level) is competitive. NoVa is a very competitive area, with NYC/Boston/SF/LA/CHI as the only places probably more competitive. You really want to avoid the "post-doc trap", which too many students fall into....they have a degree but no solid way to get enough supervised hours to get licensed. This happens at the MA/MS level too....so it often can take 2-3 years for the person to accrue enough (unpaid..and often YOU paying for supervision) hours to get licensed.

I had no issues getting an internship. IN fact I had a choice between a few. Like I said also, my network here is good and I have already spoken to a few people that are supportive. I was also informed that having a license (see below) would be helpful in defraying any loss in salary. Although, already being in the government, and the position I am in right now, is a plus in gaining employment AS an intern -another tidbit I learned form a depratment person in the VA and an HR guru.

If you already have an MA/MS and are licensed...stick with that and do continuing ed credits and seminars to scratch that itch. If you don't have any licenseable degree, then consider going part-time, at a state school, and knowing it will take 3-5 year or more to be fully licensed and practicing. This can be a very rewarding path, cost less, and let you get into the field much more quickly. All of the extra hoops required to be a clinical psychologist are rather prohibitive for most people these days (when they objectively weigh the cost v. benefit of it all).

I'm working on licensure now.

Trust me when I say that online training is not the way to go for ANY degree, let alone one related to mental health or healthcare. The stigma is too great, the training variability too much, and frankly...they are far too expensive for what you get.

I will respectfully disagree. The training I've received in my MA/EdS was rigorous. I've compared it to other student's programs and can honestly say it is a great program. The last conversation I had with a trad student doing a similar program went something like this:
me: Hey, when do you take the NCC Exam?
trad student: What exam?
me: the counselor's exam - you know, the NCMHCE exam that is required, here in Virginia for us to get licensed.
ts: I don't know. DIdn't even know there was an exam.
me: seriously? Well, didn't your program have you research the state licensing requirements as partof your curriculum? Like in an orientation class or something?
ts: No.
me:

That student went to George Mason. I went to Seton Hall. I also had to do about 300 more intern hours than her - and it is worth it. I feel the education I received from there was above par for ANY program, and like I said, I've been to both formats. The cost was comparable as well. What is your experience with online schooling that has driven you to such a negative opinion? You've got quite a bit of information for this forum but so I am wondering, what is your background? or what is it that you do that makes you a source of information to trust?

Thanks for the reply

 

[tpizza01]

Trust me when I say that online training is not the way to go for ANY degree, let alone one related to mental health or healthcare. The stigma is too great, the training variability too much, and frankly...they are far too expensive for what you get.

If people let stigmas get in there way, there would be no change.

This also reminds me of Darwin: It's not the strongest of the species that will survive, nor the most intelligent, but the most adaptable to change ... or something like that. My program has had it's moments where course scheduling was a pain, or a last minute change in faculty sent my team reeling - but I adapted, and I beleive I learned that much more for it. I venture to say that this field, or rather the training in this field has lead to complacency, simply because we are stuck on our traditional ways, and not open to change. While the world changes around us, we sit on the perch that we call foundation, and look down upon those who attempt new approach, or strive for greater efficiency of the foundation. When do we accpet change? Or are we so adamant that the one way is the only way? The truth is that WE create that stigma because of our resistance to change. I am no innocent party either, because if I didn't carry that stigma with me, or fear it in any way, then I wouldn't be on this forum right now. I also think the fear guides me in making the correct choices (as fear has done before); however, I am a proponent of change, and refuse to let my fears act as walls.

Also, you say ANY degree. Didn't you go to Nova Southeastern ... would you not recommend their online programs either?

 

[PHD12]

Doctoral education is a completely different animal. Internships on the doctoral level are a whole different match process and have no relationship to MA level internships. There is an internship crisis for many years (typically hundreds of applicants for a handful of spots for accredited internships). You cannot work for the federal government/VA and many other employment settings without an APA internship as a psychologist. It doesn't matter who you know and whether you worked there before . These are set regulations across the entire country and at every VA. Going the unaccredited/online route would pretty much guarantee that you would not get an accredited internship and would face licensure hurdles (if you can even get licensed in your state). Read about the internship crisis: http://www.apa.org/gradpsych/2009/11/math.aspx

 

[psychRA]

.
I had no issues getting an internship. IN fact I had a choice between a few. Like I said also, my network here is good and I have already spoken to a few people that are supportive. I was also informed that having a license (see below) would be helpful in defraying any loss in salary. Although, already being in the government, and the position I am in right now, is a plus in gaining employment AS an intern -another tidbit I learned form a depratment person in the VA and an HR guru.

Definitely read up on predoctoral psychology internships. This is a formal, centralized process that you must go through to become a psychologist, and it's completely separate from MA level internships. As others have mentioned, there is currently a large imbalance between the number of slots available and the number of people who need internships. Many sites (including the entire VA system) will only accept interns from APA accredited doctoral programs, and many employers will only accept employees who completed an accredited internship, so that's something to consider.

I don't think this is a perfect overview, but relevant: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/h...tage-frustrates-psychology-students.html?_r=0

 

[tpizza01]

Doctoral education is a completely different animal. Internships on the doctoral level are a whole different match process and have no relationship to MA level internships.

Yes. I am aware of this. Once again, my response was not read properly. You see, Therapist4change stated this: "Getting an internship (whether it is at the MA/MS or Ph.D./Psy.D/Ed.D. level) is competitive". My response was to this.

You cannot work for the federal government/VA and many other employment settings without an APA internship as a psychologist. It doesn't matter who you know and whether you worked there before . These are set regulations across the entire country and at every VA. Going the unaccredited/online route would pretty much guarantee that you would not get an accredited internship and would face licensure hurdles (if you can even get licensed in your state). Read about the internship crisis: http://www.apa.org/gradpsych/2009/11/math.aspx

I am sorry to dissapoint you but, the VA has begun to open the doors to mental health professionals outside of the licensed psychologist. Things are changing as the demand for more help changes, especially the demand for those with combat experience and an understanding of PTSD and other millitary challenges. Since we are pulling out links, here is one that is about a year old: http://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=2303
So, even if I do not go the doctoral route, I still have a chance of retaining employment with the government. It's true, an accredited program is more desireable in most settings, and especially the VA, but there are excpetions. Trust me.

On a different note, I think you may be reading into my posts too much - you had said in one of your others that people come on here looking for what they want to hear - I think you may be doing that with my posts. I'm not looking for a fight - I just want information so I can make good decisions. So far, you are not helping me.

 

[tpizza01]

Definitely read up on predoctoral psychology internships. This is a formal, centralized process that you must go through to become a psychologist, and it's completely separate from MA level internships. As others have mentioned, there is currently a large imbalance between the number of slots available and the number of people who need internships. Many sites (including the entire VA system) will only accept interns from APA accredited doctoral programs, and many employers will only accept employees who completed an accredited internship, so that's something to consider.

I don't think this is a perfect overview, but relevant: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/h...tage-frustrates-psychology-students.html?_r=0

Yes, I know this. See above post.

Thanks for the link!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I will respectfully disagree. The training I've received in my MA/EdS was rigorous. I've compared it to other student's programs and can honestly say it is a great program.

It sounds like you had a positive experience with your program and in that training model, though that experience is not shared universally.

My comments about stigma have been well documented in the field (published pieces in professional newsletters, research published in peer-reviewed journals, etc) and I've seen it first hand when reviewing practica and job apps. In regard to variability in training quality, the research is mixed. Online only "programs" did a lot of the early work, so I take that data w. a large grain of salt. It's been probably 5-6 years since I really looked at the literature, so YMMV.

During my gap year I did some work looking into lecture style and classroom engagement, which was later accepted and presented at a state conference. It isn't directly related, nor does <1yr of research work an expert make, but much of what my group found in the literature spoke to some of the differences of in-person/synchronous learning v. asynchronous learning.

What is your experience with online schooling that has driven you to such a negative opinion? You've got quite a bit of information for this forum but so I am wondering, what is your background? or what is it that you do that makes you a source of information to trust?

My qualitative response:
I have actually had quite a bit of experience with online learning. I have been a user (mostly CEU/didactic based) and the experience was mixed at best. I found the experience to be like watching television from a distance (for the recorded lectures). It was nice that I could watch the lectures whenever I felt like it, though the overall experience usually felt detached. The "message board" option was fine for some and it felt very forced for others. I most missed the classroom interaction and all of the learning and discussions that happened outside of the classroom before/after classes and during other down times.

I have also been asked to teach an online course, which I declined, but I did learn quite a bit about being on "the other side." I've had friends teach online, so I've seen a bit of the prep work. Recording lectures and the actual teaching seemed the most awkward, as there was no feedback, so topics seemed to just run together. I have had to record talks for various things, and it was hard to feel engaged&#8230;which I'm sure at some level came through on the other side.

Online learning isn't universally bad, but it definitely seems to be a poor fit for learning psychology. I have not been impressed by the medium and I have yet to see it be "equal" in experience to in-class learning. I'm actually in the target demographic for it too....though I feel like a Luddite writing this.

My Quantitative response:
The CVs of &#8216;online learners' and traditional B&M (brick and mortar) learners have been significantly different. The practica, research, publications/presentations, and related areas have all been night and day different&#8230;and not in a "different but equal" kind of way.

As for my background&#8230; I'm FT faculty (within a medical school) at a top university. I'm also the former mod of this forum, but don't hold that last part against me.

ps. That was an interesting way to spend a lunch break...now I'm back to the salt mines.

 

[MBellows]

I am sorry to dissapoint you but, the VA has begun to open the doors to mental health professionals outside of the licensed psychologist. Things are changing as the demand for more help changes, especially the demand for those with combat experience and an understanding of PTSD and other millitary challenges. Since we are pulling out links, here is one that is about a year old: http://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=2303
So, even if I do not go the doctoral route, I still have a chance of retaining employment with the government. It's true, an accredited program is more desireable in most settings, and especially the APA, but there are excpetions. Trust me.

It may be worth the investment (generally) to seek a master's program accredited by CACREP if you want to work for the federal government and stop at the MS/MA level. If you're interested in VR services there's also the option of CORE accredited programs, but I can't tell you how long those two will actually be separate entities.

Then again there's always Social Work. From what I've heard they get hired just about everywhere and don't have to fight just to be accepted as a valid profession.

 

[PHD12]

I am sorry to dissapoint you but, the VA has begun to open the doors to mental health professionals outside of the licensed psychologist. Things are changing as the demand for more help changes, especially the demand for those with combat experience and an understanding of PTSD and other millitary challenges. Since we are pulling out links, here is one that is about a year old: http://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=2303
So, even if I do not go the doctoral route, I still have a chance of retaining employment with the government. It's true, an accredited program is more desireable in most settings, and especially the VA, but there are excpetions. Trust me.

.

Your comments are completely out of context. In case you haven't noticed this is a doctoral level forum so I am not sure about why you are posting information about working at the VA with a master's degree. Yes, we are aware that you can work at the VA with an MA, but we are discussing doctoral level issues on this forum.

I said this: "You cannot work for the federal government/VA and many other employment settings without an APA internship as a psychologist." And you respond about other MH professionals. So I think you are the one who is misreading the posts and seeing what you want to see.

 

[tpizza01]

It may be worth the investment (generally) to seek a master's program accredited by CACREP if you want to work for the federal government and stop at the MS/MA level. If you're interested in VR services there's also the option of CORE accredited programs, but I can't tell you how long those two will actually be separate entities.

Then again there's always Social Work. From what I've heard they get hired just about everywhere and don't have to fight just to be accepted as a valid profession.

thanks for the reply. Already have MA from non-cacrep and still able to get licensed here in Virginia.

 

[tpizza01]

Your comments are completely out of context. In case you haven't noticed this is a doctoral level forum so I am not sure about why you are posting information about working at the VA with a master's degree. Yes, we are aware that you can work at the VA with an MA, but we are discussing doctoral level issues on this forum.

Thanks for the info, have a great day

 

[MBellows]

thanks for the reply. Already have MA from non-cacrep and still able to get licensed here in Virginia.

Fortunately for a lot of people in the field, CACREP hasn't moved to being mandatory for a lot of places. Certainly it gets you passed through the system much faster almost everywhere.

That said, get into the job while you can. CACREP is actively pushing for exclusive VA rights and already has exclusive DoD rights with an open grandfathering until Dec. 31, 2014.

Best of luck with whatever you choose to do!

 

[psychRA]

I am sorry to dissapoint you but, the VA has begun to open the doors to mental health professionals outside of the licensed psychologist.

So, even if I do not go the doctoral route, I still have a chance of retaining employment with the government. It's true, an accredited program is more desireable in most settings, and especially the APA, but there are excpetions. Trust me.

The VA certainly employs mental health professionals who are not psychologists, and has done so for a while. I can't speak to accreditation for those disciplines, and I can't speak to MA programs. I am only referring to clinical psychology in my posts. What I want to clarify (because it's not always made clear in this thread) is that if you want to work as a clinical psychologist within the VA system, you must complete an APA accredited* internship. There are no exceptions. I'm not trying to argue, but am just stating a fact.

*If you do a VA internship that is in the process of becoming accredited, you can work for the VA.

I'm sorry that you haven't found the feedback helpful.

 

[tpizza01]

It sounds like you had a positive experience with your program and in that training model, though that experience is not shared universally.

My comments about stigma have been well documented in the field (published pieces in professional newsletters, research published in peer-reviewed journals, etc) and I've seen it first hand when reviewing practica and job apps. In regard to variability in training quality, the research is mixed. Online only “programs” did a lot of the early work, so I take that data w. a large grain of salt. It's been probably 5-6 years since I really looked at the literature, so YMMV.

During my gap year I did some work looking into lecture style and classroom engagement, which was later accepted and presented at a state conference. It isn't directly related, nor does <1yr of research work an expert make, but much of what my group found in the literature spoke to some of the differences of in-person/synchronous learning v. asynchronous learning.



My qualitative response:
I have actually had quite a bit of experience with online learning. I have been a user (mostly CEU/didactic based) and the experience was mixed at best. I found the experience to be like watching television from a distance (for the recorded lectures). It was nice that I could watch the lectures whenever I felt like it, though the overall experience usually felt detached. The “message board” option was fine for some and it felt very forced for others. I most missed the classroom interaction and all of the learning and discussions that happened outside of the classroom before/after classes and during other down times.

I have also been asked to teach an online course, which I declined, but I did learn quite a bit about being on “the other side.” I’ve had friends teach online, so I’ve seen a bit of the prep work. Recording lectures and the actual teaching seemed the most awkward, as there was no feedback, so topics seemed to just run together. I have had to record talks for various things, and it was hard to feel engaged…which I’m sure at some level came through on the other side.

Online learning isn’t universally bad, but it definitely seems to be a poor fit for learning psychology. I have not been impressed by the medium and I have yet to see it be "equal" in experience to in-class learning. I'm actually in the target demographic for it too....though I feel like a Luddite writing this.

My Quantitative response:
The CVs of ‘online learners’ and traditional B&M (brick and mortar) learners have been significantly different. The practica, research, publications/presentations, and related areas have all been night and day different…and not in a “different but equal” kind of way.

As for my background… I’m FT faculty (within a medical school) at a top university. I’m also the former mod of this forum, but don’t hold that last part against me.

ps. That was an interesting way to spend a lunch break...now I'm back to the salt mines.

Thanks T4C - good stuff! Trust me, I love going to class, and if I get the chance, I will defintiely be lookign to go that route. I have, however, found a lot of value in and made the online format work, especially with having residencies - man, I loved the residencies! I also value the internship experience and feel that half of the learingin comes from that. Like I said, my options are limited, and I didn't expect to hear "oh yeah! Go online!", but I also didn't expect to be lambasted about it either. I'm just trying to make informed decisions. Your'e last post is helpful.

I don't hold your 'forum-ness" (lol) against you, but I was wondering why someone would have 17k posts! lol

To hopefully shed some light on what I was talking about with the VA, there have been a number of positions opening up in the system for Licensed counselors. I was told by someone in my local VA (I am there often) that it woudl be a great opportunity to work as a counselor while also working on an internship there. I don't know the details of it, I don't know who does the hiring at this facility, but I do without a doubt, trust that person - with my life.

As far as schools, again, I would love to stroll down the way and go to one of the bigger schools. AS I mentioned, UVA is sorta nearby. The issue is giving up the ability to effectively support my family. I'm not sure I will be able to do that. It sucks. In plain english, it sucks. So I fel almost trapped into looking into another route. I've ooked into a number of other programs that are really not what I want. I called and spoke with the state board to even ask about requirements, trying to see if there were any online grads licensed in the state. I was told that Walden was one that is seen going across the desk , as well as Argosy. Two schools that I consider more a business than a school. Closest one I came to so far was Fielding. Called and asked them abotu the "on probation" accreditaiton and was told that the APA was not satisfied withthe length of time it was taking their students to graduate, that they had just finished fixing the program to make it tougher and satisfy, as well as that the APA will be revisiting in April for a re-eval. I don't know the outcome. Regardless, since the Commonwealth doesn't actually require an APA accredited program, and Fielding at least WAS accredited, I figure they were the best bet so far (outside of a completely differnet program). The only problem then is, as others have so gallantly pointed out, the internship - which, like I said, I shouldn't have a problem with considering my network here. Would be great if I AM able to get a spot at the VA, but I know better than to put my stock in something that is not guaranteeed, and even in someone that I trust my life to.

Anyway, I appreciate the openness about your experience, and like you, I need to go as well Take care!

 

[tpizza01]

pushing for exclusive VA rights and already has exclusive DoD rights with an open grandfathering until Dec. 31, 2014.

Best of luck with whatever you choose to do!

I saw that! and it's a relief but scary for others at the same time.

Thanks for the luck!

Take care

 

[tpizza01]

as a clinical psychologist within the VA system, you must complete an APA accredited* internship. There are no exceptions. I'm not trying to argue, but am just stating a fact.

I'm sorry that you haven't found the feedback helpful.

Yes - you and I are on the same page See my post to T4C, I clarify the whole VA job + Internship thing.

And I DO find your feedback helpful, thanks

 

[cara susanna]

The only problem then is, as others have so gallantly pointed out, the internship - which, like I said, I shouldn't have a problem with considering my network here. Would be great if I AM able to get a spot at the VA, but I know better than to put my stock in something that is not guaranteeed, and even in someone that I trust my life to.

Anyway, I appreciate the openness about your experience, and like you, I need to go as well Take care!

Internship isn't an "arrange your own" thing in clinical psych doctoral programs. You go through a match system. Having connections helps, but it isn't guaranteed to get you one. Coming from an online program will be a huge liability for your chances of matching to an accredited internship (which, as others have said, you would need for a VA psychologist job).

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Internship isn't an "arrange your own" thing in clinical psych doctoral programs. You go through a match system. Having connections helps, but it isn't guaranteed to get you one. Coming from an online program will be a huge liability for your chances of matching to an accredited internship (which, as others have said, you would need for a VA psychologist job).

Yeah, part of the confusion often stems from the very different meaning the term "internship" takes on when talking about the formal pre-doctoral psychology internship vs. what the average internship entails. They're two completely different animals to be sure.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I wish psychology would change the lingo on the word "internship." It has too many other connotations. We should just make up a word, like practitionership.