Are there less competitive ROAD-lifestyle specialties for the average student?

[dyspareunia]

I have heard about this on the 9 o'clock news... it's called "internet bullying".

I never thought I would witness it so early.

I suppose I should've known what a "MS-0" is based on all the information in your profile: "MS-0, Medical Student (accepted), Accepted c/o 2018!!!". Forgive me for missing all the subtle hints you were dropping.

So when you're a graduated MS4 are you going to call yourself "DO-0" until you get licensed?

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[Back 5]

Why not let a pre-med celebrate their acceptance with a MS-0 in their profile? What's the harm in that?

 

[ChEMD]

MS0 is actually a term some medical schools use to address students that have been accepted but haven't started school, it's not a self-awarded title.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Why not let a pre-med celebrate their acceptance with a MS-0 in their profile? What's the harm in that?

MS0 is actually a term some medical schools use to address students that have been accepted but haven't started school, it's not a self-awarded title.

Shh, let him have his moment. Lets see how long it take before he realizes how ridiculous this is.

I suppose I should've known what a "MS-0" is based on all the information in your profile: "MS-0, Medical Student (accepted), Accepted c/o 2018!!!". Forgive me for missing all the subtle hints you were dropping.

So when you're a graduated MS4 are you going to call yourself "DO-0" until you get licensed?

Ouch, you got me. Keep it coming bud. You're on to something there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[NurWollen]

I suppose I should've known what a "MS-0" is based on all the information in your profile: "MS-0, Medical Student (accepted), Accepted c/o 2018!!!". Forgive me for missing all the subtle hints you were dropping.

So when you're a graduated MS4 are you going to call yourself "DO-0" until you get licensed?

Actually when he's a graduated MS4, it'll just be "DO". You know, since that's the degree he'll have earned.

 

[Petypet]

MS0 is actually a term some medical schools use to address students that have been accepted but haven't started school, it's not a self-awarded title.

In all fun though, isn't an MS0 anyone not in medical school. Technically my unborn son is an MS0.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

In all fun though, isn't an MS0 anyone not in medical school. Technically my unborn son is an MS0.

I would argue it's anyone with an acceptance but hasn't matriculated yet.

I got tired of people asking if I was planning to apply for the 2014-2015 cycle when I was giving advice in the pre-med section. I still get people asking if I have had any interviews.

 

[Elevencents]

What is a MS-0?

Pre-med.

Whoops. Should have kept reading first.

 

[TXPMR]

Just some food for though on this whole post:

Onto PM&R. I know TONS of PM&R docs and they all qualify their work the exact same way. They must get paid the most money for the least work of any field. BUT working more than the 'required' amount does not yeild more income (obviously major exceptions apply, but im generalizing here and its how they usually phrase it). PM&R docs can definitely be 'entrepreneurs' and make money through non-classical methods... but we need to stick to the bread-and-butter stuff here. I cant anticipate you being a good businessman, only a competent physician. Lets lay this out there: PM&R DOCTORS DO NOT MAKE A LOT OF MONEY (by physician standards). But what they do have is a job where there is a set amount of 'stuff' to do per day and once its done they can call it a day and leave barring one of the post-stroke patients re-infarcting. For the amount of work they do, they get paid exceptionally well. But if youre looking at the paycheck at the end of the month? They are not a particularly dazzling field for flat out income. Now what do you do with all that extra time? Apparently PM&R private practice outpatient stuff isnt all that lucrative. Its necessary, but not that lucrative. Most do that for a little boost. But im sure plenty do lots of 'non-classical' tangents of PM&R to really boost the income. I would definitely *not* put PM&R into the ROAD group. I would say that it is a great option for those that like short days (or at least, potentially short days) and neurology.

I'm speaking as a current PM&R resident and I think you're pretty spot on. Taken a little further though I think too many med students look at the bottom line income and not enough on the actual lifestyle it takes to get that income.

Let's take someone making 180k working 20 hours a week as a general academic inpatient physiatrist (yes, 20 hours...it takes max 4 hours a day to manage an inpatient service with the residents doing all the work) with little stress and little call vs. 400k working 70 hours as week as an academic general surgeon with stress and call emergencies. Broadly assuming equal intellectual/professional interest, which is more attractive? For some, money is the end all be all...and that's fine they would take the latter...but for others that not the case and they should seriously consider the former.

Unfortunately, there's not enough guidance in most med schools about how to craft lifestyle as an attending physician. This is why too many look at total income (which is just about all med students have to go on in terms of picturing a certain lifestyle) as the benchmark of what makes certain specialties attractive.

 

[dyspareunia]

Actually when he's a graduated MS4, it'll just be "DO". You know, since that's the degree he'll have earned.

You're right, how silly of me. Just a lowly AMS-1 myself. "A" for Allopathic.

Edit: make that AMS-1.9 since I'm about 90% done with the year.

 

[NurWollen]

You're right, how silly of me. Just a lowly AMS-1 myself. "A" for Allopathic.

Edit: make that AMS-1.9 since I'm about 90% done with the year.

Not sure what you're getting at.

 

[cliquesh]

You're right, how silly of me. Just a lowly AMS-1 myself. "A" for Allopathic.

Edit: make that AMS-1.9 since I'm about 90% done with the year.

0.9

 

[DocEspana]

I walk away from this thread for one day and this is what happens? This is why we can't have nice things in this forum.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Why not let a pre-med celebrate their acceptance with a MS-0 in their profile? What's the harm in that?

SDN 'power ranking': Attendings > Residents > MS3-4 > MS2-1 > MS-0 >>>> Premeds...

 

[chizledfrmstone]

0.9

Brevity is the soul of wit.

 

[J ROD]

There is a such thing as a M0. We actually have Mo day at my school. Where they come in and we show them around and give hints, etc. Sort of like you are one of us now........

It is definitely more than a premed to me since you got that acceptance letter. You are no longer fighting to get in.....you are in.

With that said, I was never all yeasted up to be called a M0. I was just like I start in the fall. In fact, I did not even go to my Mo day. I thought it was not needed since I am older. But, to each their own.

 

[J ROD]

I'm speaking as a current PM&R resident and I think you're pretty spot on. Taken a little further though I think too many med students look at the bottom line income and not enough on the actual lifestyle it takes to get that income.

Let's take someone making 180k working 20 hours a week as a general academic inpatient physiatrist (yes, 20 hours...it takes max 4 hours a day to manage an inpatient service with the residents doing all the work) with little stress and little call vs. 400k working 70 hours as week as an academic general surgeon with stress and call emergencies. Broadly assuming equal intellectual/professional interest, which is more attractive? For some, money is the end all be all...and that's fine they would take the latter...but for others that not the case and they should seriously consider the former.

Unfortunately, there's not enough guidance in most med schools about how to craft lifestyle as an attending physician. This is why too many look at total income (which is just about all med students have to go on in terms of picturing a certain lifestyle) as the benchmark of what makes certain specialties attractive.

Completely agree. I think PM&R is a great choice if you want decent pay and good life. So many med students do not have a clue what it is. One of my friends thought about doing physical therapy before doing med school and I told them about PM&R and they were like really? There is something like that.

To me, PM&R, Psy, and IM-Rheum, Endo are all good options in this discussion. Sort of a second tier ROAD.

We can call it PREP...lol.....

 

[J ROD]

SDN 'power ranking': Attendings > Residents > MS3-4 > MS2-1 > MS-0 >>>> Premeds...

you need to switch that 3 and 4 in your power ratings.........dont f that up! lol

 

[DocEspana]

Completely agree. I think PM&R is a great choice if you want decent pay and good life. So many med students do not have a clue what it is. One of my friends thought about doing physical therapy before doing med school and I told them about PM&R and they were like really? There is something like that.

To me, PM&R, Psy, and IM-Rheum, Endo are all good options in this discussion. Sort of a second tier ROAD.

We can call it PREP...lol.....

Again: endo is neither a good lifestyle nor good pay. It just happens to have zero call. They work their asses off twice over when in the hospital and usually have insanely busy offices/clinics. They deserve much more than they earn.

 

[Apprands31]

Again: endo is neither a good lifestyle nor good pay. It just happens to have zero call. They work their asses off twice over when in the hospital and usually have insanely busy offices/clinics. They deserve much more than they earn.

Doc Espana, what do you think about either geriatrics or hospice/palliative care?

 

[DocEspana]

Doc Espana, what do you think about either geriatrics or hospice/palliative care?

Don't know enough. The only people I know in either field are NPs. Probably not prudent to make judgements with only input from different chains in the care hierarchy.

 

[user3]

I would argue it's anyone with an acceptance but hasn't matriculated yet.

I got tired of people asking if I was planning to apply for the 2014-2015 cycle when I was giving advice in the pre-med section. I still get people asking if I have had any interviews.

I have been noticing a string of anti-DO trolls lately. They have mostly registered with in the past few months and write rather similarly. I think MedPR might be back, and with a vengeance.

 

[J ROD]

Again: endo is neither a good lifestyle nor good pay. It just happens to have zero call. They work their asses off twice over when in the hospital and usually have insanely busy offices/clinics. They deserve much more than they earn.

Well, give me a vowel then....haha.

 

[J ROD]

Doc Espana, what do you think about either geriatrics or hospice/palliative care?

I spent a month in geriatrics. I liked it more than peds. It can be a decent lifestyle if you are in a group with hospital coverage. It make sense to go into with the increasing numbers of older folks making a greater percentage of the population.

You could definitely pick worse options in terms of lifestyle. Money was around 160-180K from the ones I spoke with. Not much different than FM. I think FM is more around 160K where I am from.

I only have ever spoke with one Endo but I have several guys interested in IM and they tell me they are in the 180-200K range around here. From what I gathered from them, it was not that bad a lifestyle so maybe Espana knows more than them. I just know they had a list of Rheum, Endo, and Allergy. Then Nephro......Cards, GI, Onc/Hem ranging them in that order.

Palliative care.........was around the same pay here. Only spent a couple days with one. Again, it was not bad. But, I just found it depressing. Not for me.

Geriatrics and Palliative Care are like FM to me with just some focus. It all depends on the setup. But, the lifestyle can be decent.....pay on the lower end but enough.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Don't know enough. The only people I know in either field are NPs. Probably not prudent to make judgements with only input from different chains in the care hierarchy.

What do you think about neurology?

 

[postbacpremed87]

What do you think about neurology?

You have to like the subject matter of any specialty. Please keep that in mind. If that is not the case, then it is pointless.

I would also add that you have to be genuinely good at the specialty...at least that would benefit you and your patients.

Keep those points in mind when choosing a specialty. Don't just choose one you could easily match into.

 

[hallowmann]

You have to like the subject matter of any specialty. Please keep that in mind. If that is not the case, then it is pointless.

I would also add that you have to be genuinely good at the specialty...at least that would benefit you and your patients.

Keep those points in mind when choosing a specialty. Don't just choose one you could easily match into.

Liking the subject matter is one thing, but how easy is it to gauge how genuinely good you are in a specialty by 3rd year?

 

[J ROD]

What do you think about neurology?

I think that has already been discussed several posts back.

 

[postbacpremed87]

Liking the subject matter is one thing, but how easy is it to gauge how genuinely good you are in a specialty by 3rd year?

You're right. That's more of a rough shot estimate. You would try to gauge this 3rd year and on your sub Is. Are you good at it was the wrong way of putting it. You don't get good at it until residency and many years of practice. I meant gauging whether your personality matches the field...or if you like the lifestyle etc.

 

[vanfanal]

I think in Neuro you will get in the 250-300K range. But work probably around 55.

Psy is more about 35-40 from what I have been hearing. low 200K But if you ever get that private practice set up..........gold

I've consistently read that the reason psych is one of the lowest paid specialties is because of the lower hours. But is there a reason behind the reduced hours? Is it perhaps because it's a mentally and emotionally taxing specialty? Just curious.

 

[NontradCA]

Liking the subject matter is one thing, but how easy is it to gauge how genuinely good you are in a specialty by 3rd year?

Clinical research?

 

[NontradCA]

I'm speaking as a current PM&R resident and I think you're pretty spot on. Taken a little further though I think too many med students look at the bottom line income and not enough on the actual lifestyle it takes to get that income.

Let's take someone making 180k working 20 hours a week as a general academic inpatient physiatrist (yes, 20 hours...it takes max 4 hours a day to manage an inpatient service with the residents doing all the work) with little stress and little call vs. 400k working 70 hours as week as an academic general surgeon with stress and call emergencies. Broadly assuming equal intellectual/professional interest, which is more attractive? For some, money is the end all be all...and that's fine they would take the latter...but for others that not the case and they should seriously consider the former.

Unfortunately, there's not enough guidance in most med schools about how to craft lifestyle as an attending physician. This is why too many look at total income (which is just about all med students have to go on in terms of picturing a certain lifestyle) as the benchmark of what makes certain specialties attractive.

I know what you said is a hypothetical but wouldn't an academic attending have research and administrative responsibilities as well?

I also think that the rising debt is a reason students contemplate lucrative fields early on. I could be wrong though.

 

[hallowmann]

Clinical research?

Yeah, I imagine you could figure out how good you are at clinical research by doing clinical research, but if your goals aren't strictly academic, this might not help much.

I spent years doing clinical research. It told me nothing about how I would do in that field, all it did was make me a bit more familiar with it and the process (paper writing, applying for grants, etc.). Even then, I've learned more related to the field in <1yr of med school than I learned in ~4yrs (granted on the side/part-time) of clinical research.

By the way, I'm being purposefully cryptic for anonymity, but the "field" I'm referring to is a specific medical field that you would apply to for residency.

 

[NontradCA]

Yeah, I imagine you could figure out how good you are at clinical research by doing clinical research, but if your goals aren't strictly academic, this might not help much.

I spent years doing clinical research. It told me nothing about how I would do in that field, all it did was make me a bit more familiar with it and the process (paper writing, applying for grants, etc.). Even then, I've learned more related to the field in <1yr of med school than I learned in ~4yrs (granted on the side/part-time) of clinical research.

By the way, I'm being purposefully cryptic for anonymity, but the "field" I'm referring to is a specific medical field that you would apply to for residency.

Interesting concept you bring up. Does it happen a lot that someone chooses a specialty could have been better suited for something else? If you have a passion for something, would that not, most of the time, carry over to being good at it?

 

[hallowmann]

Interesting concept you bring up. Does it happen a lot that someone chooses a specialty could have been better suited for something else? If you have a passion for something, would that not, most of the time, carry over to being good at it?

For the first question, looking at the physician surveys, it seems there are a lot of docs that would still choose medicine, but not their specialty if they were to do it again. Now how much of that is the grass being greener and how much is genuine regret is anyone's guess.

As for the second question, probably in most cases. The thing I'm thinking of is specialties that require a certain level of technical/physical skill. Like, how do I know I have the fine motor skills to do microsurgery on the eye as an ophthalmologist for example.

 

[NontradCA]

Probably in most cases. The thing I'm thinking of is specialties that require a certain level of technical/physical skill. Like, how do I know I have the fine motor skills to do microsurgery on the eye as an ophthalmologist for example.

I'm fairly certain this can be developed over time for most people. Also, robots and lasers.

 

[hallowmann]

I'm fairly certain this can be developed over time for most people. Also, robots and lasers.

Yeah, I don't know. Plus residencies don't always give you the ability to develop things over time. If you don't progress as fast as others in your program, you could be dropped.

 

[NontradCA]

Yeah, I don't know. Plus residencies don't always give you the ability to develop things over time. If you don't progress as fast as others in your program, you could be dropped.

Yea I don't know either, I was just throwing out some thoughts.

 

[J ROD]

I've consistently read that the reason psych is one of the lowest paid specialties is because of the lower hours. But is there a reason behind the reduced hours? Is it perhaps because it's a mentally and emotionally taxing specialty? Just curious.

Since this is my field, I have spoken with a lot of folks and have my own limited experiences to this point. Psy is really laid back and attracts those mostly that are not concerned about making money and just a decent income and good hrs. With that said, Psy can be mentally exhausting IF you are one that takes it home. If you can separate, your feelings from it then those are the ones I see not having problems. Some are so sensitive I really do not think they should be in Psy because you have to have a more objective nature than most to be good due to the subjective and emotional nature of Psy.

If I had to put more weight on one, I would say that it is more due to them not wanting to work more hrs. Most are happy with their 180-200K and 30-35hrs. They have more time for family, etc.

Personally, I have more of a surgery work ethic but I really like Psy so I am somewhat more work happy than most in Psy. I see myself working PT on my own practice or elsewhere.

There is not much I can not do with 200K v. 300K. So, after my loans are paid off, I might pursue other interests too. That probably has some reasons behind the lower hrs too like in EM.

The one caveat in Psy is you really have to have a special personality to deal with the patient population. You cant just do it for the hrs and lifestyle. Then, I really imagine it could be draining and taxing.....lol.

Psy is really off by itself and you really know if you belong there or not.

Personally, I can not think of a field in medicine with less respect but the first others want to consult. Nobody else wants to handle the Psy patients. IF they look crazy, consult Psy... I know in the ER once we got a Psy in there they were handing those patients off like hot potatoes. Many of the EM docs I spoke tell me that is one of their least fav things.

I have most of my interest in EM and Psy for reference. EM has now fallen off for me. But, I think I would really like EM Psychiatry. I shadowed it once and it has been my fav so far. Best of both for me.

 

[hallowmann]

Yea I don't know either, I was just throwing out some thoughts.

I wouldn't mind using robots and lasers, as long as they don't become sentient or go all SkyNet Judgement Day on us.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

I wouldn't mind using robots and lasers, as long as they don't become sentient or go all SkyNet Judgement Day on us.

I wouldn't either, but nothing beats the gratifying experience of an open surgery.

 

[hallowmann]

I wouldn't either, but nothing beats the gratifying experience of an open surgery.

Looks cool, but if given the choice I'd rather cut small windows on the sides of someone's ribcage than crack open their chest. I think they prefer that too

 

[scummie]

Another sub-specialty that may be of interest is palliative care. You can enter it from many other fields, even surgery. It may not be appealing to everyone. Common to see docs who don't want to retire just yet or those who got tired of their first specialty doing it. You can really help patients' suffering and provide a valuable service to families.

 

[scummie]

I wouldn't mind using robots and lasers, as long as they don't become sentient or go all SkyNet Judgement Day on us.

Been one too many evil robots on Doctor Who. No Daleks for me, thanks.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Looks cool, but if given the choice I'd rather cut small windows on the sides of someone's ribcage than crack open their chest. I think they prefer that too

To each their own, but I personally entertain the idea of running the patient's bowls and getting my hands dirty in the process

 

[vanfanal]

Since this is my field, I have spoken with a lot of folks and have my own limited experiences to this point. Psy is really laid back and attracts those mostly that are not concerned about making money and just a decent income and good hrs. With that said, Psy can be mentally exhausting IF you are one that takes it home. If you can separate, your feelings from it then those are the ones I see not having problems. Some are so sensitive I really do not think they should be in Psy because you have to have a more objective nature than most to be good due to the subjective and emotional nature of Psy.

If I had to put more weight on one, I would say that it is more due to them not wanting to work more hrs. Most are happy with their 180-200K and 30-35hrs. They have more time for family, etc.

Personally, I have more of a surgery work ethic but I really like Psy so I am somewhat more work happy than most in Psy. I see myself working PT on my own practice or elsewhere.

There is not much I can not do with 200K v. 300K. So, after my loans are paid off, I might pursue other interests too. That probably has some reasons behind the lower hrs too like in EM.

The one caveat in Psy is you really have to have a special personality to deal with the patient population. You cant just do it for the hrs and lifestyle. Then, I really imagine it could be draining and taxing.....lol.

Psy is really off by itself and you really know if you belong there or not.

Personally, I can not think of a field in medicine with less respect but the first others want to consult. Nobody else wants to handle the Psy patients. IF they look crazy, consult Psy... I know in the ER once we got a Psy in there they were handing those patients off like hot potatoes. Many of the EM docs I spoke tell me that is one of their least fav things.

I have most of my interest in EM and Psy for reference. EM has now fallen off for me. But, I think I would really like EM Psychiatry. I shadowed it once and it has been my fav so far. Best of both for me.

So then how does psychiatry equate with other specialties then? What I mean is what do you think an average psy can earn working 40 or 50 hrs as other specialists would?

 

[TXPMR]

I know what you said is a hypothetical but wouldn't an academic attending have research and administrative responsibilities as well?

I also think that the rising debt is a reason students contemplate lucrative fields early on. I could be wrong though.

Depends on what academic track you are on. As an academic attending, yes you will certainly have administrative duties. After that, it depends on your institution and how their faculty tracks. See for example:

http://medicine.osu.edu/faculty/tracks/Pages/index.aspx and http://gumc.georgetown.edu/evp/facultyaffairs/facultytracksandapplicationforms/universitytracks and for a paper on the variation in academic faculty tracks: http://journals.lww.com/academicmed...Career_Tracks_at_U_S__Medical_Schools.11.aspx

So it is conceivable (and I know PM&R attendings who do this...but they work efficiently) to spend 20 hours a week with direct patient care and 10 hours or so a week doing educational/administrative work and be at 180k. They key here is that they are generating beaucoup RVUs with the inpatient service but the resident is doing most of the work (so actual work time is closer to 80 hours as week). Obviously, though stress level can vary depending on academic track...as someone on the research track would have a lot of added pressure to publish.

Again, this is like the lower end, bare minimum type of things. I'd say most academic inpatient PM&R attendings also have an outpatient practice such that they buttress their inpatient RVUs with RVUs from an outpatient practice. If one wants to do private practice general inpatient rehab he can easily be at 200k+ with 40hrs a week of work (again, assuming efficiency). And clearly those who are fellowship trained in certain specialties can commands much higher salaries.

In the end, as DocE mentioned there is a ceiling for physiatrist pay and you're never going to top the Forbes list as just a physiatrist. But the opportunity to be well within the upper middle class of income and work 40 relatively low stress hours and to have very rewarding patient experiences is appealing to a lot of people, but not necessarily those who want to maximize their bank and prestige within medicine.

 

[Apprands31]

W

Depends on what academic track you are on. As an academic attending, yes you will certainly have administrative duties. After that, it depends on your institution and how their faculty tracks. See for example:

http://medicine.osu.edu/faculty/tracks/Pages/index.aspx and http://gumc.georgetown.edu/evp/facultyaffairs/facultytracksandapplicationforms/universitytracks and for a paper on the variation in academic faculty tracks: http://journals.lww.com/academicmed...Career_Tracks_at_U_S__Medical_Schools.11.aspx

So it is conceivable (and I know PM&R attendings who do this...but they work efficiently) to spend 20 hours a week with direct patient care and 10 hours or so a week doing educational/administrative work and be at 180k. They key here is that they are generating beaucoup RVUs with the inpatient service but the resident is doing most of the work (so actual work time is closer to 80 hours as week). Obviously, though stress level can vary depending on academic track...as someone on the research track would have a lot of added pressure to publish.

Again, this is like the lower end, bare minimum type of things. I'd say most academic inpatient PM&R attendings also have an outpatient practice such that they buttress their inpatient RVUs with RVUs from an outpatient practice. If one wants to do private practice general inpatient rehab he can easily be at 200k+ with 40hrs a week of work (again, assuming efficiency). And clearly those who are fellowship trained in certain specialties can commands much higher salaries.

In the end, as DocE mentioned there is a ceiling for physiatrist pay and you're never going to top the Forbes list as just a physiatrist. But the opportunity to be well within the upper middle class of income and work 40 relatively low stress hours and to have very rewarding patient experiences is appealing to a lot of people, but not necessarily those who want to maximize their bank and prestige within medicine.

Which track is more prestigious among tenure, clinical , and research ?

 

[J ROD]

So then how does psychiatry equate with other specialties then? What I mean is what do you think an average psy can earn working 40 or 50 hrs as other specialists would?

Psy is actually pretty diverse. It really depends on what area you end up in. Can be around 200K as your primary job and then another 50K with your secondary job. I have would assume around 250K if you work around 50hrs.

If you can establish a cash private practice then you can clear 300K +.

Hard to do but I have met 3 that have. They love life...haha.

If you are willing to work some places and a little harder you can get closer to the 250K range with still a good lifestyle.

 

[postbacpremed87]

Psy is actually pretty diverse. It really depends on what area you end up in. Can be around 200K as your primary job and then another 50K with your secondary job. I have would assume around 250K if you work around 50hrs.

If you can establish a cash private practice then you can clear 300K +.

Hard to do but I have met 3 that have. They love life...haha.

If you are willing to work some places and a little harder you can get closer to the 250K range with still a good lifestyle.

250k with a 50 hr work week is still a fantastic lifestyle.