Are there less competitive ROAD-lifestyle specialties for the average student?

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All surgery, (except ophtho) be it general, specialized, uro, ent, or ortho has two things in common 1) frequent super late nights and 2) weekends are not sacred.

the more specialized you are the more you risk #1 but the less you risk #2. Urologic surgeons rarely come in on weekends for anything short of trauma requiring a nephrectomy or a gangrenous testicle (since most anything else can be temporized by interventional radiology or every nurse attempting to get a foley in until one succeeds) but they pretty frequenly work until late at night, and somewhat unexpectedly. If they do surgeries its because they are the only ones able to do certain surgeries and when the docket is long, or complications start, there is no one to relieve them or split the patient load. If they do office and procedural there is still a similar element of 'sometimes you have a procedure that takes 2 or 3 hours when it should have taken 10 minutes and now everything is late. Same applies for all the specialied surgical fields.

Other side of the coin is gen surg. They go late too, just not as often. But they have no protection at all on weekends. They get clobbered even as attendings.

You go into surgery, any kind, because the OR is your favorite place in the world and curing patients immediately is the only thing that gratifies you. If this is the case, no amount of 'OR time' or 'unexpected extra hours' will bug you much. Obviously you dont want the hemiarthroplasty or the hot gallbladder on your daughters birthday.... but surgeons (the ones there for the right reasons) truly love going in and cutting, so the time demands dont bother them. That they get paid handsomely (sometimes) for it is a plus.

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Just some food for though on this whole post:

If we are defining ROAD as "the hours worked are more reasonable than most and the pay is better than most, with potential for one to be very good" then we have one conversation. If we are defining BOTH hours worked or amount earned as being "very favorable" then we have an extremely different conversation (the conversation starts and ends with me telling you "youre kidding yourself") To do a quick summary: Radiology - great hours, reasonable-to-no in hospital call, good pay. Exceptional pay if youre interventional but that is a VERY hard thing to get. Ophtho - This right here is everything its cracked up to be. Barring a change in medicare payments, this one is *the* field you discuss when you discuss "road". Anesthesia - The hours are NOT as good as you have been lead to believe and call is a very real thing. But the pay is comically large. Assuming CNRA's dont steal the field it looks to stay exceptionally well paid. Derm - every derm I know states that its a field where what you make is how hard you hustle. Its profit margin "per hour spent hustling" is good, but I know poor dermatologists. And they dont suck, they just dont feel like getting their hands dirty with running medical spas or doing cosmetic procedures. Without having a robust cosmetics business it pay is not there. And obviously the hours (if you hustle when you are working) are among the best.

BUT with all of that said. None of the four above can be said to have a "downside" at either pay or hours worked (which no other field can say). Hell I'd say they are the 4 best "hours + pay" fields. But they are not uniformly "good for lifestyle". 3 of the 4 of them have an area where they are average among the two aspects. "lifestyle fields" dont really exist, outside of ophtho; get that silly thought that they do out of everyone's head and we can talk a bit.

So now to touch on Emergency Medicine. 1) You need to have the right personality for emergency medicine. I could talk for ages about it, but its true. Though you need a certain personality quirk to want to work on orbital trauma as well... so ophtho sort of understands the 'we collect a certain kind of person' mentality. 2) No field works less than EM... so woohoo. It scores big time on the hours worked metric. It must be super lifestlye right? 3) most other fields out there eventually stop working crappy shifts like holidays and overnights. "Call" and "home call" dont exist in EM. You cant be the attending who phones it in to the resident or nurse on christmas day. The price of entry for the fewest hours per week is that you dont get to decide WHEN those hours are. 4) The pay for EM isnt quite what people think it is. Its above the mean. Definitely above the mean. You're dealing with minimum salaries of 200K, but absolute maximums are about 350K. Technically many people are paid per hour and *could* earn many K more, but study after study of incomes shows that no one ever does for any sustained period of time. Pretty much all EM docs end up at about 225-275K and very few exist within the extremes of that pay range. Thats fantastic per hour, but a pittance compared to what Derm (potentially), optho and anesthesiology make. And also pennies compared to what surgeons make. Its a field where there is a income roof.

So if you want to put emergency medicine in there since it gets paid well (but FAR from great by physician standards) and works very little, then go ahead. I hesitate away from doing that, but I can see the logic in it.

Onto PM&R. I know TONS of PM&R docs and they all qualify their work the exact same way. They must get paid the most money for the least work of any field. BUT working more than the 'required' amount does not yeild more income (obviously major exceptions apply, but im generalizing here and its how they usually phrase it). PM&R docs can definitely be 'entrepreneurs' and make money through non-classical methods... but we need to stick to the bread-and-butter stuff here. I cant anticipate you being a good businessman, only a competent physician. Lets lay this out there: PM&R DOCTORS DO NOT MAKE A LOT OF MONEY (by physician standards). But what they do have is a job where there is a set amount of 'stuff' to do per day and once its done they can call it a day and leave barring one of the post-stroke patients re-infarcting. For the amount of work they do, they get paid exceptionally well. But if youre looking at the paycheck at the end of the month? They are not a particularly dazzling field for flat out income. Now what do you do with all that extra time? Apparently PM&R private practice outpatient stuff isnt all that lucrative. Its necessary, but not that lucrative. Most do that for a little boost. But im sure plenty do lots of 'non-classical' tangents of PM&R to really boost the income. I would definitely *not* put PM&R into the ROAD group. I would say that it is a great option for those that like short days (or at least, potentially short days) and neurology.

Endocrinology: I have no idea why you threw this out. Endo is one of the most poorly paid specialties out there and they are generally overwhelmed with patients. Endo belongs no where in this conversation. If you love endo, good for you. Do it. God bless you. May all of your patients have highly-billable disorders. But don't count on it. hypercalcemia managment for years pays less (combined!) than a 30 minute parathyroidectomy.

Psych I have no real commentary on. All I know is that my psych resident friends tell me that inpatient psych pays terribly and outpatient psych pays wonderfully. They actually comment that this is why inpatient psych physicians tend to be so clueless about general medicine (as always, exceptions apply), because the smarter psych graduates have the ability to go outpatient. No clue about the lifestyle dynamics to either.

Jumping back to anesthesia: You called gas easy at one point. Anesthesia and EM are about the same for competitiveness, I would say. Both have some easy to get into programs which makes the whole field "seem" easier, but generally speaking youre talking about needing a 240 on one of your usmle's to stand a legit chance at a mid-level program or better. I think calling anesthesia easy to get into is incorrect, but it does have a good number of small programs with more variable acceptance standards. Theyre also both similar in that I wouldnt suggest going AOA for either of them. I know controversial comment. But I know in EM there are basically four AOA programs really worth their salt and the rest vary from "a bit lacking" to "how the hell is that still accredited". I hear in anesthesia that number is basically one program that is comperable to ACGME. Its why I didnt mention the comlex above, because if youre thinking gas or emergency, you should be thinking USMLE. I know I'm gonna get hell for this, but I have heard pretty much unanimous commentary from DO residents in both gas and emergency that the AOA world is horribly lacking for these fields except for super limited examples of strong programs (including commentary from DO residents in AOA programs in these fields).

Hospitalists: You can make a crap ton of money, but 4 out of 5 people dont. Generally speaing hospitalists are getting the shaft with potential income and BIG TIME getting the shaft with hours required. But.... they get vacation time galore, so when they are off they are truly off. Also about 20% (thus the 4 out of 5) are basically hospital mercenaries. If you are willing to travel a lot and go where the jobs are, there is some IMMENSE money to be made in locums tenens. But this is *horrific* for lifestyle when youre on service. Its nice to work 2 or 3 weeks and then have a month or more off and make a boatload of money for it, but it is hard to pack up and move to north dakota, central PA, or Maine every other month to get that boatload of money. Living out of hotels gets tiring very quickly.

Urgent Care: If youre not *owning* or *running* the urgent care, then youre making peanuts and some other physician is profiting off of you. Working in urgent care as a physician is failing unless youre the one at or near the top of the food chain.

Rheum: Dont know a ton about it.

Neuro: All neuro fields pay horribly. There is an evolving field of interventional neurology that might go the way of IR and IC. But as of right now, its super niche and not showing signs of expanding yet. Its basically one big innovation away from blowing up. But until it does, neuro pays pretty terribly and asks a lot of time from you.

Peds: know what pays worse than sick patients? Healthy ones. Peds is notoriously the lowest paying 'major' field of medicine. Again, dont know how this field snuck into the convo.

FM: People give FM too much of a hard time. If you hustle and are a businessman, you'll make more money than you know what to do with in FM. But you need to be a *very good* business man. Most of us arent.

Pain medicine: This is an amazing fellowship. I have nothing negative to say. If youre in Anesthesia, PM&R or (as of Friday. literally two days ago) Emergency Medicine this is a hell of a field. Now it is *exceptionally* hard to get, but if you get it, you'll have a nice life as long as you get past the huge number of malingering patients.

Just curious, do most EM doctors spend a few years post-residency working extra to expedite loan repayment and then tone it back once the loans are paid? I just want a specialty where I can pay back $300k in under 5 years. I hope to pay back about $8k a month post-residency, is this realistic with most specialties? I am pretty sure it won't be a problem but this debt really stresses me out, even as a first year med student.
 
Just curious, do most EM doctors spend a few years post-residency working extra to expedite loan repayment and then tone it back once the loans are paid? I just want a specialty where I can pay back $300k in under 5 years. I hope to pay back about $8k a month post-residency, is this realistic with most specialties? I am pretty sure it won't be a problem but this debt really stresses me out, even as a first year med student.

Maybe? haha. IDK. I'll tell you in ~3 years.
 
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Just curious, do most EM doctors spend a few years post-residency working extra to expedite loan repayment and then tone it back once the loans are paid? I just want a specialty where I can pay back $300k in under 5 years. I hope to pay back about $8k a month post-residency, is this realistic with most specialties? I am pretty sure it won't be a problem but this debt really stresses me out, even as a first year med student.

i cannot contribute much to this conversation, but i do know that there are a lot of hospitals (usually in rural areas) that will pay your debt back on top of providing you a hefty salary post-residency. there are general surgeons being paid 300K right out of residency while having their loans paid back.
 
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i cannot contribute much to this conversation, but i do know that there are a lot of hospitals (usually in rural areas) that will pay your debt back on top of providing you a hefty salary post-residency. there are general surgeons being paid 300K right out of residency while having their loans paid back.
I know those can often come with a catch, and I partially chose medicine because I hoped to have the option for private practice. However, I realize those days are likely coming to an end. At least hospitals seem to be paying well for now
 
i cannot contribute much to this conversation, but i do know that there are a lot of hospitals (usually in rural areas) that will pay your debt back on top of providing you a hefty salary post-residency. there are general surgeons being paid 300K right out of residency while having their loans paid back.

No fellowship needed?
 
No fellowship needed?

no fellowship needed. the demand for general surgeons seems to always be high. i even see the demand starting to increase in places like boston and nyc lately. highly underrated specialty.
 
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no fellowship needed. the demand for general surgeons seems to always be high. i even see the demand starting to increase in places like boston and nyc lately. highly underrated specialty.

Yup, the demand is high and will get significantly higher in the next decade as most surgeons are 55 years of age or older. Besides, I've been following the numbers closely on the number of pgy1 residency spots. Over the past 20 years, general surgery hardly seen an increase in residency spots (1050 in 1993 vs 1150 in 2013). However, it seems that nearly every GS grad goes into further specialization nowadays. It will be interesting how things will play out in the near future.
 
no fellowship needed. the demand for general surgeons seems to always be high. i even see the demand starting to increase in places like boston and nyc lately. highly underrated specialty.

Yup, the demand is high and will get significantly higher in the next decade as most surgeons are 55 years of age or older. Besides, I've been following the numbers closely on the number of pgy1 residency spots. Over the past 20 years, general surgery hardly seen an increase in residency spots (1050 in 1993 vs 1150 in 2013). However, it seems that nearly every GS grad goes into further specialization nowadays. It will be interesting how things will play out in the near future.

How competitive is general surgery to get any spot in the field?
 
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Just some food for though on this whole post:

Neuro: All neuro fields pay horribly. There is an evolving field of interventional neurology that might go the way of IR and IC. But as of right now, its super niche and not showing signs of expanding yet. Its basically one big innovation away from blowing up. But until it does, neuro pays pretty terribly and asks a lot of time from you.

.

I sort of disagree with this. There can be some relatively lucrative positions within neurology. Look at www.merritthawkins.com and you will see plenty of 250-300 range jobs and definitely more than a few 300k+ positions. This is only one job site. There are many more. There is a poster within the neuro forum that received an offer of 315k for a 7on/7off neurohospitalist position. This is not BAD pay, especially if you love the subject matter. More neuro-interventional positions are being developed out of neuro departments as opposed to neurosurgery. The lifestyle sucks, but these will definitely pay 400k+. I am of the opinion that it will take off. NeuroICU outside of academia can pay hefty sums. I just saw a position for 350k+ booku incentives.

I do concede that you can make more money in the same amount of time in other fields (4 years + 1 year fellowship), but it is not that bleak. There is a huge shortage.
 
Just some food for though on this whole post:

If we are defining ROAD as "the hours worked are more reasonable than most and the pay is better than most, with potential for one to be very good" then we have one conversation. If we are defining BOTH hours worked or amount earned as being "very favorable" then we have an extremely different conversation (the conversation starts and ends with me telling you "youre kidding yourself") To do a quick summary: Radiology - great hours, reasonable-to-no in hospital call, good pay. Exceptional pay if youre interventional but that is a VERY hard thing to get. Ophtho - This right here is everything its cracked up to be. Barring a change in medicare payments, this one is *the* field you discuss when you discuss "road". Anesthesia - The hours are NOT as good as you have been lead to believe and call is a very real thing. But the pay is comically large. Assuming CNRA's dont steal the field it looks to stay exceptionally well paid. Derm - every derm I know states that its a field where what you make is how hard you hustle. Its profit margin "per hour spent hustling" is good, but I know poor dermatologists. And they dont suck, they just dont feel like getting their hands dirty with running medical spas or doing cosmetic procedures. Without having a robust cosmetics business it pay is not there. And obviously the hours (if you hustle when you are working) are among the best.

BUT with all of that said. None of the four above can be said to have a "downside" at either pay or hours worked (which no other field can say). Hell I'd say they are the 4 best "hours + pay" fields. But they are not uniformly "good for lifestyle". 3 of the 4 of them have an area where they are average among the two aspects. "lifestyle fields" dont really exist, outside of ophtho; get that silly thought that they do out of everyone's head and we can talk a bit.

So now to touch on Emergency Medicine. 1) You need to have the right personality for emergency medicine. I could talk for ages about it, but its true. Though you need a certain personality quirk to want to work on orbital trauma as well... so ophtho sort of understands the 'we collect a certain kind of person' mentality. 2) No field works less than EM... so woohoo. It scores big time on the hours worked metric. It must be super lifestlye right? 3) most other fields out there eventually stop working crappy shifts like holidays and overnights. "Call" and "home call" dont exist in EM. You cant be the attending who phones it in to the resident or nurse on christmas day. The price of entry for the fewest hours per week is that you dont get to decide WHEN those hours are. 4) The pay for EM isnt quite what people think it is. Its above the mean. Definitely above the mean. You're dealing with minimum salaries of 200K, but absolute maximums are about 350K. Technically many people are paid per hour and *could* earn many K more, but study after study of incomes shows that no one ever does for any sustained period of time. Pretty much all EM docs end up at about 225-275K and very few exist within the extremes of that pay range. Thats fantastic per hour, but a pittance compared to what Derm (potentially), optho and anesthesiology make. And also pennies compared to what surgeons make. Its a field where there is a income roof.

So if you want to put emergency medicine in there since it gets paid well (but FAR from great by physician standards) and works very little, then go ahead. I hesitate away from doing that, but I can see the logic in it.

Onto PM&R. I know TONS of PM&R docs and they all qualify their work the exact same way. They must get paid the most money for the least work of any field. BUT working more than the 'required' amount does not yeild more income (obviously major exceptions apply, but im generalizing here and its how they usually phrase it). PM&R docs can definitely be 'entrepreneurs' and make money through non-classical methods... but we need to stick to the bread-and-butter stuff here. I cant anticipate you being a good businessman, only a competent physician. Lets lay this out there: PM&R DOCTORS DO NOT MAKE A LOT OF MONEY (by physician standards). But what they do have is a job where there is a set amount of 'stuff' to do per day and once its done they can call it a day and leave barring one of the post-stroke patients re-infarcting. For the amount of work they do, they get paid exceptionally well. But if youre looking at the paycheck at the end of the month? They are not a particularly dazzling field for flat out income. Now what do you do with all that extra time? Apparently PM&R private practice outpatient stuff isnt all that lucrative. Its necessary, but not that lucrative. Most do that for a little boost. But im sure plenty do lots of 'non-classical' tangents of PM&R to really boost the income. I would definitely *not* put PM&R into the ROAD group. I would say that it is a great option for those that like short days (or at least, potentially short days) and neurology.

Endocrinology: I have no idea why you threw this out. Endo is one of the most poorly paid specialties out there and they are generally overwhelmed with patients. Endo belongs no where in this conversation. If you love endo, good for you. Do it. God bless you. May all of your patients have highly-billable disorders. But don't count on it. hypercalcemia managment for years pays less (combined!) than a 30 minute parathyroidectomy.

Psych I have no real commentary on. All I know is that my psych resident friends tell me that inpatient psych pays terribly and outpatient psych pays wonderfully. They actually comment that this is why inpatient psych physicians tend to be so clueless about general medicine (as always, exceptions apply), because the smarter psych graduates have the ability to go outpatient. No clue about the lifestyle dynamics to either.

Jumping back to anesthesia: You called gas easy at one point. Anesthesia and EM are about the same for competitiveness, I would say. Both have some easy to get into programs which makes the whole field "seem" easier, but generally speaking youre talking about needing a 240 on one of your usmle's to stand a legit chance at a mid-level program or better. I think calling anesthesia easy to get into is incorrect, but it does have a good number of small programs with more variable acceptance standards. Theyre also both similar in that I wouldnt suggest going AOA for either of them. I know controversial comment. But I know in EM there are basically four AOA programs really worth their salt and the rest vary from "a bit lacking" to "how the hell is that still accredited". I hear in anesthesia that number is basically one program that is comperable to ACGME. Its why I didnt mention the comlex above, because if youre thinking gas or emergency, you should be thinking USMLE. I know I'm gonna get hell for this, but I have heard pretty much unanimous commentary from DO residents in both gas and emergency that the AOA world is horribly lacking for these fields except for super limited examples of strong programs (including commentary from DO residents in AOA programs in these fields).

Hospitalists: You can make a crap ton of money, but 4 out of 5 people dont. Generally speaing hospitalists are getting the shaft with potential income and BIG TIME getting the shaft with hours required. But.... they get vacation time galore, so when they are off they are truly off. Also about 20% (thus the 4 out of 5) are basically hospital mercenaries. If you are willing to travel a lot and go where the jobs are, there is some IMMENSE money to be made in locums tenens. But this is *horrific* for lifestyle when youre on service. Its nice to work 2 or 3 weeks and then have a month or more off and make a boatload of money for it, but it is hard to pack up and move to north dakota, central PA, or Maine every other month to get that boatload of money. Living out of hotels gets tiring very quickly.

Urgent Care: If youre not *owning* or *running* the urgent care, then youre making peanuts and some other physician is profiting off of you. Working in urgent care as a physician is failing unless youre the one at or near the top of the food chain.

Rheum: Dont know a ton about it.

Neuro: All neuro fields pay horribly. There is an evolving field of interventional neurology that might go the way of IR and IC. But as of right now, its super niche and not showing signs of expanding yet. Its basically one big innovation away from blowing up. But until it does, neuro pays pretty terribly and asks a lot of time from you.

Peds: know what pays worse than sick patients? Healthy ones. Peds is notoriously the lowest paying 'major' field of medicine. Again, dont know how this field snuck into the convo.

FM: People give FM too much of a hard time. If you hustle and are a businessman, you'll make more money than you know what to do with in FM. But you need to be a *very good* business man. Most of us arent.

Pain medicine: This is an amazing fellowship. I have nothing negative to say. If youre in Anesthesia, PM&R or (as of Friday. literally two days ago) Emergency Medicine this is a hell of a field. Now it is *exceptionally* hard to get, but if you get it, you'll have a nice life as long as you get past the huge number of malingering patients.


The original post asked about specialties that basically have good lifestyle with decent pay for an average student.

Not the ROAD. I add EM to ROAD because it is so popular at my school and from what I can tell it popular all around. And from what I was being told they are closer to the 300K. At least that was what the 3rd residents were saying their offers were. I think it deserves the spot. It has better hrs than Anes and I know several Rads guys that work hrs. I would not say that is a cush job either.

I believe it has passed Anes in competitiveness based on Step 1 scores. Can't be sure anymore since we do not have the reports anymore. Therefore, I would say in the ROADE is the easiest out of them to get. I know folks that got Anes with lesser scores than EM. For all the specialties I say you must like it to do it. Just do not do it for the hell of it or money.

That is why I added things like Endo. I was looking more at the hrs and decent pay. Endo makes better than Peds at least where I live.

I did not stick Peds in there. I was just saying I hate Peds and OB......so if that is your thing ask someone else.

Psy is a great secret if you like Psy patients. All I will say because I do not want folks in it. Less the folks want in the better for me.

Good post on each specialty. We all have our thoughts and experiences.
 
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How competitive is general surgery to get any spot in the field?

I would say right around the upper 220s or low 230s. It is fairly competitive. I would say above the middle and rising some. I do not know much about it except what some friends that are interested have said.
 
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I enjoyed reading this post immensely and would like to know your input regarding surgical subspecialties. I realize that, for the most part, surgery isn't a lifestyle field. However, there's a day and night difference between general surgery and, say, ENT, Uro, or even Ortho. I read that many Uro attendings work only 4.5 days a week. Same thing for sport ortho. In ENT, one can choose to do mostly office-based procedures and still lead a great lifestyle.

What do you think? Where do these field fall within the "lifestyle" spectrum?

I'd love to get @DocEspana 's thoughts on ENT and ortho as well... that post was gold...thanks
 
I sort of disagree with this. There can be some relatively lucrative positions within neurology. Look at www.merritthawkins.com and you will see plenty of 250-300 range jobs and definitely more than a few 300k+ positions. This is only one job site. There are many more. There is a poster within the neuro forum that received an offer of 315k for a 7on/7off neurohospitalist position. This is not BAD pay, especially if you love the subject matter. More neuro-interventional positions are being developed out of neuro departments as opposed to neurosurgery. The lifestyle sucks, but these will definitely pay 400k+. I am of the opinion that it will take off. NeuroICU outside of academia can pay hefty sums. I just saw a position for 350k+ booku incentives.

I do concede that you can make more money in the same amount of time in other fields (4 years + 1 year fellowship), but it is not that bleak. There is a huge shortage.

Yeah, Neuro is not a bad field. I definitely know in my area they are clearing around 250K and higher. Not 400K but some 300sK. I have thought about it. I prefer Psy though. If I wanted an academia life, I would probably do a dual residency in both. But, I do not care for research.

But for the purpose of hrs, I would not recommend it to the OP, which I just noticed was back in 2011. I commented from FB. SO, he probably does not matter anymore and we can just talk about the fields in whatever manner we think....lol
 
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I sort of disagree with this. There can be some relatively lucrative positions within neurology. Look at www.merritthawkins.com and you will see plenty of 250-300 range jobs and definitely more than a few 300k+ positions. This is only one job site. There are many more. There is a poster within the neuro forum that received an offer of 315k for a 7on/7off neurohospitalist position. This is not BAD pay, especially if you love the subject matter. More neuro-interventional positions are being developed out of neuro departments as opposed to neurosurgery. The lifestyle sucks, but these will definitely pay 400k+. I am of the opinion that it will take off. NeuroICU outside of academia can pay hefty sums. I just saw a position for 350k+ booku incentives.

I do concede that you can make more money in the same amount of time in other fields (4 years + 1 year fellowship), but it is not that bleak. There is a huge shortage.

MGMA (my new favorite thing) suggests its a very average paying field with a huge right skew. So a decent percent make hundreds of K more than the median, but most sit in a bell curve in average land.

I'll e pulling up the AMA data on some of these fields soon, because they have some unique insights in their analysis.
 
@DocEspana are you considering a fellowship in pain medicine?

My pain doc is a DO (pretty standard around here) and he's amazing. He was able to really help me out and make a difference in my life. I could see how that could be a rewarding career.
 
I would say right around the upper 220s or low 230s. It is fairly competitive. I would say above the middle and rising some. I do not know much about it except what some friends that are interested have said.

Is that range for DO's matching ACGME spots?
 
Yeah, Neuro is not a bad field. I definitely know in my area they are clearing around 250K and higher. Not 400K but some 300sK. I have thought about it. I prefer Psy though. If I wanted an academia life, I would probably do a dual residency in both. But, I do not care for research.

But for the purpose of hrs, I would not recommend it to the OP, which I just noticed was back in 2011. I commented from FB. SO, he probably does not matter anymore and we can just talk about the fields in whatever manner we think....lol
Do the average neuro physicians work more than 50 hours a week? I am considering neuro along with psychiatry for the lifestyle they might offer, but I am not too informed about the lifestyle of an average neuro physician with a potential salary of 250k.
 
Do the average neuro physicians work more than 50 hours a week? I am considering neuro along with psychiatry for the lifestyle they might offer, but I am not too informed about the lifestyle of an average neuro physician with a potential salary of 250k.

The average according to AAMC is 50.8...let's just say 51. Private practice Neuro is a nice lifestyle especially if you do EMG/EEG/Sleep, but life looks less grand if you take stroke call, especially if you do interventional

I think the site said that they work 6 hours a week more than psychiatrists
 
The average according to AAMC is 50.8...let's just say 51. Private practice Neuro is a nice lifestyle especially if you do EMG/EEG/Sleep, but life looks less grand if you take stroke call, especially if you do interventional

I think the site said that they work 6 hours a week more than psychiatrists
I'm thinking that the average psychiatrist works A LOT less than the average neuro guy. The folks over in the psych forums keep tossing around <35hrs week as not uncommon. As far as lifestyle goes, I'm not sure you can beat psych (assuming one actually likes psych, the major hurdle).
 
Doubtful.

Yeah probably 240+ on Step 1 to have realistic shot at community/low tier academic ACGME general surgery programs, though I am sure there are exceptions. Maybe a mid 230s app that applies broadly to friendly programs might have a shot.
 
The average according to AAMC is 50.8...let's just say 51. Private practice Neuro is a nice lifestyle especially if you do EMG/EEG/Sleep, but life looks less grand if you take stroke call, especially if you do interventional

I think the site said that they work 6 hours a week more than psychiatrists
I am not interested in doing any fellowship due to my age (30+ now)... Is a fellowship in neuro necessary to do the good stuff (sleep medicine, neuro hospitalist ect..) or/and to get a good job?
 
Radiology - great hours, reasonable-to-no in hospital call, good pay. Exceptional pay if youre interventional but that is a VERY hard thing to get.

Radiology is a 24/7 field these days. Somebody has to cover nights. Many new grads can only find night jobs.
 
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I am not interested in doing any fellowship due to my age (30+ now)... Is a fellowship in neuro necessary to do the good stuff (sleep medicine, neuro hospitalist ect..) or/and to get a good job?

I'm only an MS-0 but I have read countless of posts on this topic. However, from reading, it seems that neuro is a very broad field. Therefore, many (most?) end up specializing. Besides, outpatient neurology pays $hit.
 
I am not interested in doing any fellowship due to my age (30+ now)... Is a fellowship in neuro necessary to do the good stuff (sleep medicine, neuro hospitalist ect..) or/and to get a good job?

Sleep is a fellowship and while a fellowship isn't required to be a neurohospitalist....a neuroICU fellow or vascular neuro fellow would beat you out for the job because those fellowships allow you to manage acute patients, especially stroke victims. Hospitals love flashy board certifications and physicians with fellowship. It's all part of marketing.
 
I'm only an MS-0 but I have read countless of posts on this topic. However, from reading, it seems that neuro is a very broad field. Therefore, many (most?) end up specializing. Besides, outpatient neurology pays $hit.
Oh no! I am not planning to specialize. Thus, psych is back to be my #1 again if I have to specialize for neuro in order to make a decent living.
 
I'm only an MS-0 but I have read countless of posts on this topic. However, from reading, it seems that neuro is a very broad field. Therefore, many (most?) end up specializing. Besides, outpatient neurology pays $hit.

There are many neurology positions like this:

State:
Oregon
Income Potential:
$301,000 - $350,000
Practice Type:
Hospital
Signing Bonus:
Yes
Loan Forgiveness:
Yes
Contract #:
165376
Community Size:
100,000 to 250,000
 
There are many neurology positions like this:

State:
Oregon
Income Potential:
$301,000 - $350,000
Practice Type:
Hospital
Signing Bonus:
Yes
Loan Forgiveness:
Yes
Contract #:
165376
Community Size:
100,000 to 250,000

Inpatient neurology?
 
Inpatient neurology?

This is one of the better ones:

| $400,000 Practice | High Income, Low Workload

Compensation and Benefits
  • Competitive base salary with $400,000 earning potential
  • $5,000 relocation expense reimbursement
  • $2,000 per weekday compensated call
  • Malpractice insurance
  • 6 weeks of vacation, sick days and CME with a $2,000 CME allowance
  • One year partnership or have the option to become a financial partner from day one

Your Work
  • Work Monday through Friday—8:00 am to 5:30 pm
  • Typical scheduling includes clinic days seeing 5 new patients and 6 revisits, or 13 revisits, or 9 new patients if no revisits are scheduled
  • Approximately every 5th day, there is a dedicated EMG day with 9 to 12 EMGs
  • 40% new patients and 60% revisits
  • Call is characterized as light and shared at 1:6 for the practice and 1:5 for the hospital
  • No admissions and most calls are handled by phone
  • Cover only one hospital

Your Home
  • University city located 90 minutes to world’s busiest airport
  • Upscale amenities
  • Great public and private school systems
  • Symphony, theatre, museums, golf courses and quality restaurants are plentiful
 
Radiology is a 24/7 field these days. Somebody has to cover nights. Many new grads can only find night jobs.

I actually agree with you, because I've heard a lot of commentary about the over saturated market right now. But with that said, most of what I've heard from young but established rads has been shift work with more than decent hours. And many places simply do not have nighttime radiology. Night Hawking is a serious serious industry.

but, radiology has never appealed to me in the least. So, my knowledge base is limited to my friends who are significantly more interested in the field or already in the field.
 
Oh no! I am not planning to specialize. Thus, psych is back to be my #1 again if I have to specialize for neuro in order to make a decent living.

You don't have to specialize to make a decent living. You can make 250k+ as a general neuro out of residency if you are willing to relocate.
 
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As a note: I did not mean to insult neur ology. It is simply my feeling that when you track everyone out there you find that the large majority are earning average pay with a decent percentage earning exceptonal pay. the metrics back up, that it is a Right skewed bell curve. A pretty significantly right skewed curve.

pretty much any field can give you buckets of money if you land the lucky exception or if you hustle the hell out of your sutyation. I am only commenting on the median of each field and then expanding a bit on the trend outside of the median for a slightly more robust analysis. It doesn't account for all aspects of what's possible.

a lot of what I said comes from significant word-of-mouth & a little bit of fact checking with various physician salary metrics. It doesn't mean it's a hundred percent right, or even necessarily extremely accurate, but I feel confident that I have some evidence behind my comments. I do apologize if I misxharactetized the reality using my word of mouth and stats combo analysis.
 
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My top 4, in any combo/duo of one another:
-Path
-Onc
-Rad
-Heme

Ideally, Hematopath or Rad/Onc. Anyone have any thoughts on these? I actually would NOT like to do forensic path, but would very much like the laboratory workplace of Hematopath.
 
Hem/path is a decent career. 9 to 5 job for the most part. Upper 200's to mid 300s in private practice. only problem is you need to go to a good program to get a good job.
 
I'm only an MS-0 but I have read countless of posts on this topic. However, from reading, it seems that neuro is a very broad field. Therefore, many (most?) end up specializing. Besides, outpatient neurology pays $hit.

What is a MS-0?
 
Been accepted but has not started yet..............the best. You are happy to be there

So like, a pre-med who wants other pre-meds to know he's the king of pre-meds?
 
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i cannot contribute much to this conversation, but i do know that there are a lot of hospitals (usually in rural areas) that will pay your debt back on top of providing you a hefty salary post-residency. there are general surgeons being paid 300K right out of residency while having their loans paid back.
hope these options are still around once we come to market
 
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So like, a pre-med who wants other pre-meds to know he's the king of pre-meds?

a premed with an acceptance letter is a dangerous thing.......lol

I have heard about this on the 9 o'clock news... it's called "internet bullying".

I never thought I would witness it so early.
 
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Just some food for though on this whole post:

If we are defining ROAD as "the hours worked are more reasonable than most and the pay is better than most, with potential for one to be very good" then we have one conversation. If we are defining BOTH hours worked or amount earned as being "very favorable" then we have an extremely different conversation (the conversation starts and ends with me telling you "youre kidding yourself") To do a quick summary: Radiology - great hours, reasonable-to-no in hospital call, good pay. Exceptional pay if youre interventional but that is a VERY hard thing to get. Ophtho - This right here is everything its cracked up to be. Barring a change in medicare payments, this one is *the* field you discuss when you discuss "road". Anesthesia - The hours are NOT as good as you have been lead to believe and call is a very real thing. But the pay is comically large. Assuming CNRA's dont steal the field it looks to stay exceptionally well paid. Derm - every derm I know states that its a field where what you make is how hard you hustle. Its profit margin "per hour spent hustling" is good, but I know poor dermatologists. And they dont suck, they just dont feel like getting their hands dirty with running medical spas or doing cosmetic procedures. Without having a robust cosmetics business it pay is not there. And obviously the hours (if you hustle when you are working) are among the best.

BUT with all of that said. None of the four above can be said to have a "downside" at either pay or hours worked (which no other field can say). Hell I'd say they are the 4 best "hours + pay" fields. But they are not uniformly "good for lifestyle". 3 of the 4 of them have an area where they are average among the two aspects. "lifestyle fields" dont really exist, outside of ophtho; get that silly thought that they do out of everyone's head and we can talk a bit.

So now to touch on Emergency Medicine. 1) You need to have the right personality for emergency medicine. I could talk for ages about it, but its true. Though you need a certain personality quirk to want to work on orbital trauma as well... so ophtho sort of understands the 'we collect a certain kind of person' mentality. 2) No field works less than EM... so woohoo. It scores big time on the hours worked metric. It must be super lifestlye right? 3) most other fields out there eventually stop working crappy shifts like holidays and overnights. "Call" and "home call" dont exist in EM. You cant be the attending who phones it in to the resident or nurse on christmas day. The price of entry for the fewest hours per week is that you dont get to decide WHEN those hours are. 4) The pay for EM isnt quite what people think it is. Its above the mean. Definitely above the mean. You're dealing with minimum salaries of 200K, but absolute maximums are about 350K. Technically many people are paid per hour and *could* earn many K more, but study after study of incomes shows that no one ever does for any sustained period of time. Pretty much all EM docs end up at about 225-275K and very few exist within the extremes of that pay range. Thats fantastic per hour, but a pittance compared to what Derm (potentially), optho and anesthesiology make. And also pennies compared to what surgeons make. Its a field where there is a income roof.

So if you want to put emergency medicine in there since it gets paid well (but FAR from great by physician standards) and works very little, then go ahead. I hesitate away from doing that, but I can see the logic in it.

Onto PM&R. I know TONS of PM&R docs and they all qualify their work the exact same way. They must get paid the most money for the least work of any field. BUT working more than the 'required' amount does not yeild more income (obviously major exceptions apply, but im generalizing here and its how they usually phrase it). PM&R docs can definitely be 'entrepreneurs' and make money through non-classical methods... but we need to stick to the bread-and-butter stuff here. I cant anticipate you being a good businessman, only a competent physician. Lets lay this out there: PM&R DOCTORS DO NOT MAKE A LOT OF MONEY (by physician standards). But what they do have is a job where there is a set amount of 'stuff' to do per day and once its done they can call it a day and leave barring one of the post-stroke patients re-infarcting. For the amount of work they do, they get paid exceptionally well. But if youre looking at the paycheck at the end of the month? They are not a particularly dazzling field for flat out income. Now what do you do with all that extra time? Apparently PM&R private practice outpatient stuff isnt all that lucrative. Its necessary, but not that lucrative. Most do that for a little boost. But im sure plenty do lots of 'non-classical' tangents of PM&R to really boost the income. I would definitely *not* put PM&R into the ROAD group. I would say that it is a great option for those that like short days (or at least, potentially short days) and neurology.

Endocrinology: I have no idea why you threw this out. Endo is one of the most poorly paid specialties out there and they are generally overwhelmed with patients. Endo belongs no where in this conversation. If you love endo, good for you. Do it. God bless you. May all of your patients have highly-billable disorders. But don't count on it. hypercalcemia managment for years pays less (combined!) than a 30 minute parathyroidectomy.

Psych I have no real commentary on. All I know is that my psych resident friends tell me that inpatient psych pays terribly and outpatient psych pays wonderfully. They actually comment that this is why inpatient psych physicians tend to be so clueless about general medicine (as always, exceptions apply), because the smarter psych graduates have the ability to go outpatient. No clue about the lifestyle dynamics to either.

Jumping back to anesthesia: You called gas easy at one point. Anesthesia and EM are about the same for competitiveness, I would say. Both have some easy to get into programs which makes the whole field "seem" easier, but generally speaking youre talking about needing a 240 on one of your usmle's to stand a legit chance at a mid-level program or better. I think calling anesthesia easy to get into is incorrect, but it does have a good number of small programs with more variable acceptance standards. Theyre also both similar in that I wouldnt suggest going AOA for either of them. I know controversial comment. But I know in EM there are basically four AOA programs really worth their salt and the rest vary from "a bit lacking" to "how the hell is that still accredited". I hear in anesthesia that number is basically one program that is comperable to ACGME. Its why I didnt mention the comlex above, because if youre thinking gas or emergency, you should be thinking USMLE. I know I'm gonna get hell for this, but I have heard pretty much unanimous commentary from DO residents in both gas and emergency that the AOA world is horribly lacking for these fields except for super limited examples of strong programs (including commentary from DO residents in AOA programs in these fields).

Hospitalists: You can make a crap ton of money, but 4 out of 5 people dont. Generally speaing hospitalists are getting the shaft with potential income and BIG TIME getting the shaft with hours required. But.... they get vacation time galore, so when they are off they are truly off. Also about 20% (thus the 4 out of 5) are basically hospital mercenaries. If you are willing to travel a lot and go where the jobs are, there is some IMMENSE money to be made in locums tenens. But this is *horrific* for lifestyle when youre on service. Its nice to work 2 or 3 weeks and then have a month or more off and make a boatload of money for it, but it is hard to pack up and move to north dakota, central PA, or Maine every other month to get that boatload of money. Living out of hotels gets tiring very quickly.

Urgent Care: If youre not *owning* or *running* the urgent care, then youre making peanuts and some other physician is profiting off of you. Working in urgent care as a physician is failing unless youre the one at or near the top of the food chain.

Rheum: Dont know a ton about it.

Neuro: All neuro fields pay horribly. There is an evolving field of interventional neurology that might go the way of IR and IC. But as of right now, its super niche and not showing signs of expanding yet. Its basically one big innovation away from blowing up. But until it does, neuro pays pretty terribly and asks a lot of time from you.

Peds: know what pays worse than sick patients? Healthy ones. Peds is notoriously the lowest paying 'major' field of medicine. Again, dont know how this field snuck into the convo.

FM: People give FM too much of a hard time. If you hustle and are a businessman, you'll make more money than you know what to do with in FM. But you need to be a *very good* business man. Most of us arent.

Pain medicine: This is an amazing fellowship. I have nothing negative to say. If youre in Anesthesia, PM&R or (as of Friday. literally two days ago) Emergency Medicine this is a hell of a field. Now it is *exceptionally* hard to get, but if you get it, you'll have a nice life as long as you get past the huge number of malingering patients.
very interesting. wonder how these AOA programs will fare under the merger...
 
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Yeah probably 240+ on Step 1 to have realistic shot at community/low tier academic ACGME general surgery programs, though I am sure there are exceptions. Maybe a mid 230s app that applies broadly to friendly programs might have a shot.
240+ for a community/low tier? Yea no way... More like 230-240. 240+ will get you a lot of mid tier/ great location academic program looks.
 
240+ for a community/low tier? Yea no way... More like 230-240. 240+ will get you a lot of mid tier/ great location academic program looks.

I have heard and seen this as well.
 
240+ for a community/low tier? Yea no way... More like 230-240. 240+ will get you a lot of mid tier/ great location academic program looks.

People don't realize the sheer number of community ACGME programs out there for surgery. It's enough and it has a dramatically different milieu than academic ACGME.
 
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