'Anesthesiologist trashes sedated patient — and it ends up costing her'

[jl lin]

Why would it be? Have you ever treated a patient differently because of his/her sexual orientation? Have you ever denied a patient the right to be with his/her lover or friend, at his/her bedside, just because they were missing a document?

More people will get employer-sponsored private health insurance. Great!

What am I missing?

Sorry, i truly don't understand your question here.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[WingedOx]

I think some sarcasm was missed in the last few posts.

 

[deleted171991]

OK, I think a number of us have been pretty clear. I perceive you indeed are missing the bigger point/picture; and no one here will be able to change your perspective on this--at least not any time soon. But experience can be a great teacher.

I could have written you this exact post, too.

 

[WingedOx]

Why would gay people getting married be an issue for doctors?

Well I'm a doctor, and last weekend I went to a gay wedding. It was catered by trendy food trucks and at the reception a discussion broke out about which NPR interviewer is the best: Terry Gross or Diane Rehm.

Truly a dystopian urban future... Careful, now it's coming to your state too!

 

[deleted171991]

I think some sarcasm was missed in the last few posts.

Thanks.

 

[4-cyclohexene]

I agree that they were unprofessional and disrespectful. I certainly don't see where 500k is justified...as many have said. This is a strange precedence.

Would a patient who criticizes a doctor to their face deserve to have financial repercussions? What if they called the doc a quack and said they were an idiot who shouldn't practice medicine...would that patient be at fault for 500k for potentially causing depression to the doctor and causing sleepless nights and affecting their life negatively? Certainly not.

But it is part of the physician's JOB to care for their patients physical and mental well-being. Patient's arrive seeking care in a vulnerable state, justifying their fears and questions. How can a physician, whose role is to empathize as best as he or she can, and show compassion say such cruel things? Would they say these cruel things about a patient who was severely mentally disabled and couldn't speak? Is it OK to say such horrible things about people at your place of work? No, it's unacceptable. For a patient to berate or insult their doctor is completely different, they are not at their professional place of work. And the decisions they make and the way they treat people do not affect someone's life in such a direct way. What if this patient was severely depressed or had serious mental health issues and committed suicide because of something like this? I agree with certain aspects of your argument, but I still don't think this comparison is appropriate.

Should doctors act more professionally than their patients? Of course. It doesn't mean we need a justice system in place that awards people money when they are offended--especially by comments they were never intended to hear in the first place. Doctors, lawyers, law officers, waiters, cashiers, blah, blah, blah, and every other profession that deals with public service is full of people that blow off the steam by sometimes talking poorly about their constituents in ways they were never intended to hear.

I don't have a fully formed opinion on what the appropriate legal thing to do in this type of situation is so I won't speak to that. But I think many people are missing the point here. It's not an argument over "how much should this guy be compensated for the suffering he endured" nor "the legal system is corrupt" but rather an argument about what types of competencies are required in a physician. Would you want a physician like this treating you? Sure, some people are thick-skinned and not as sensitive, but there is an appropriate time and place for professionals to vent and let off steam. That is CERTAINLY not at work and definitely not in the presence of the patient. Also, again, I think your comparison to lawyers, waiters, cashiers talking poorly about their customers is ineffective. Physicians are caring for people who are SICK, VULNERABLE, and afraid. To pass judgment on someone they hardly know is completely inappropriate. If you don't have anything nice to say don't say it at all!

Also, I'm much more perturbed by the comment about adding hemorrhoids to the chart when they don't see any. The comments about wanting to punch someone in the face because they're a wuss or jokes about ebola of the penis were clearly in jest....but it seems like these things gain more sympathy because they are more curt than the hemorrhoid comment.

I respect the other side of this argument and am in no way trying to attack your POV, but I think it's important to consider the implications this has on the way physicians are viewed and our understanding of what is necessary to be a physician. Are physicians held to higher standards of respect, kindness and empathy than other professions? I think so, which is why I believe some sort of disciplinary action and seriousness towards this issue is warranted.

 

[jl lin]

I could have written you this exact post, too.

You essentially tried to previously; but sadly, you didn't want to deal with looking in the mirror.


And why is gay marriage mixed in here? There is a separate thread for that already.

 

[deleted171991]

And why is gay marriage mixed in here? There is a separate thread for that already.

I apologize. I misunderstood this post:

How is this NOT a very REAL issue for medicine and healthcare?

I thought "this" was referring to gay marriage, not this thread.

 

[jl lin]

I respect the other side of this argument and am in no way trying to attack your POV, but I think it's important to consider the implications this has on the way physicians are viewed and our understanding of what is necessary to be a physician. Are physicians held to higher standards of respect, kindness and empathy than other professions? I think so, which is why I believe some sort of disciplinary action and seriousness towards this issue is warranted.

Yes, they most definitely are. Should we get Rasmussen to do a poll here? Come on. I think we all know this, and if we don't, all I can say is, wow. Bring your head up out of the the sand hole it is in.

The anesthesiologist got what she deserved, and short of trying to be humane also and giving her a chance to get some help, I say her sanctions and damages should be more severe. Why? Well for one, b/c of cyclohexane's point--as well as a number of others.

And if a person feels a need to be a ____(<--place expletive here), do it on your own time and/or get some help to figure out why you have such a hateful attitude in the first place. Or you could do want some appear to do and take it out on people anonymously on the Internet. Some folks really get a kick of that. (No particular Internet site--just speaking in general.)

 

[jl lin]

I apologize. I misunderstood this post:

No problem. Sometimes threads can all tangled up in issues.

 

[Ace Khalifa]

I said her sanctions and damages should be more severe.

No. The whole case is a farce to begin with. The amount awarded to the patient who was clearly looking for trouble is absurdly high.

 

[Jabbed]

No. The whole case is a farce to begin with. The amount awarded to the patient who was clearly looking for trouble is absurdly high.

Don't know if this has been brought up, but the patient in this case was an attorney.

 

[Ace Khalifa]

Don't know if this has been brought up, but the patient in this case was an attorney.

It has been brought up. Thank you for the reminder. And the patient being an attorney (with knowledge of Virginia law) only adds further to how much of a farce this setup was.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

The statements and actions toward the patient were grievous enough to warrant these kinds of damages. This treatment was a violation of patient rights and ethical treatment--and again HURTS w/ GP and their feelings about trusting physicians and healthcare providers.
There really is No (zip, zero) justification, and the damages should stand.

They should be a warning to those that need to be reminded about how to rightfully deal with patients and families. Personally I have no time and tolerance for this sort of thing, and the hospital had enough sense to let her go for obvious reason--and b/c I can guarantee her words and actions violated the organization's own mission, value statements, ethical statements, standards, and patient bill of rights.

There is a big difference between morality/ethics and legality. I don't think anybody here is questioning whether the behavior of the anesthesiologist was moral/ethical or not (though obviously people have different opinions on the severity of it). But having juries assign financial damages to moral issues is opening up a whole Pandora's box of problems. Calling it malpractice is sketchy at best, and blatantly wrong, at worst.

 

[jl lin]

No. The whole case is a farce to begin with. The amount awarded to the patient who was clearly looking for trouble is absurdly high.

B/c you think it was a sting operation, what she did and said shouldn't matter. What we say and do does matter. Believe it.


And gee, how did this patient know the ologist was going to act like an abusive witch?

 

[Psai]

B/c you think it was a sting operation, what she did and said shouldn't matter. What we say and do does matter. Believe it.


And gee, how did this patient know the ologist was going to act like an abusive witch?

Who is we? You haven't even applied to medical school yet

 

[Stagg737]

I respect the other side of this argument and am in no way trying to attack your POV, but I think it's important to consider the implications this has on the way physicians are viewed and our understanding of what is necessary to be a physician. Are physicians held to higher standards of respect, kindness and empathy than other professions? I think so, which is why I believe some sort of disciplinary action and seriousness towards this issue is warranted.

And that's the problem. Physicians are held to a different moral and ethical standard than many other professions. In legal terms, those standards should be the same regardless of the individuals profession. If a physicians could be sued for making remarks like that, I should be able to sue a sandwich maker or a taxi driver for making the same types of remarks towards me. We all know that I would never get the same settlement as if I sued a physician though. If this country is going to strive for equality like it supposedly does, then everyone needs to be held to the same standards. Otherwise we're following the principle of some people being 'more equal' than others.

 

[4-cyclohexene]

And that's the problem. Physicians are held to a different moral and ethical standard than many other professions. In legal terms, those standards should be the same regardless of the individuals profession. If a physicians could be sued for making remarks like that, I should be able to sue a sandwich maker or a taxi driver for making the same types of remarks towards me. We all know that I would never get the same settlement as if I sued a physician though. If this country is going to strive for equality like it supposedly does, then everyone needs to be held to the same standards. Otherwise we're following the principle of some people being 'more equal' than others.

But how can a sandwich maker, whose biggest mistake will be not putting enough mayo on a sandwich and upsetting a customer, be compared to a physician who insults a patient, tells him his concerns are BS and then sends him on his way to worry about his health, life, and well-being in isolation?Equality is important and holding ALL people accountable for their actions is as well. But a physicians actions and words hit much harder than a sandwich maker.

 

[jl lin]

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/phy...-ethics/code-medical-ethics/opinion1001.page?

See no. 3.

Also:
[A boundary violation occurs when a health care professional’s behavior goes beyond appropriate professional limits. Boundary violations generally arise when a personal interest displaces the professional’s primary commitment to the patient’s welfare in ways that harm the patient or the patient-clinician relationship. Interactions between health care professionals and patients are ethically problematic when they can reasonably be expected to affect the care the individual or other patients receive or the health care professional’s relationships with colleagues—or when they give the appearance of doing so.]
http://www.ethics.va.gov/docs/necrp...ical_Boundaries_Pt-Clinician_Relationship.pdf


Also:
[The American Medical Association's Principle of Ethics clearly states that a physician "shall be dedicated to providing competent medical care with compassion and respect for human dignity and rights." It further goes on to proclaim that the physician should be honest in all professional interactions and should strive to report physician deficiencies in care and honesty.

Unfortunately, these particular physicians found no need to uphold AMA principles. Not only did they defy their professional obligations, they turned their back on the common courtesy and respect that should be shown to any human.
They both clearly demonstrated a lack of integrity to their profession — they acted a different way when they thought they were not being watched. Clearly, they demonstrated behaviors that should question their dedication to their profession and patient care.

Sadly, this event is likely not uncommon. When patients are "asleep," many healthcare providers lower their guard and forget the person that is in their care. However, all healthcare providers need to respect the patients they are caring for during all phases of care. When patients are vulnerable, there is even a higher level of expectation that the staff will protect them and respect their dignity. It is what they expect of their healthcare providers.

Although the patient’s attorney asked for $1.75 million, the jury verdict was a compromise among the jurors. With a $500,000 verdict, this case is certainly causing healthcare providers to stop and take notice. It is imperative to remember the patient’s autonomy at all times — whether they can hear us or not.]
http://exclusive.multibriefs.com/co...lly-abusing-patient/healthcare-administration

They got off light and easy, easy, easy--and that is by way of the supposedly 'stupid' Virginia jurors that made the compromise a bit easier for the defendant/s. (I am referencing someone above that made this insulting comment against the jury of peers.)

No way. You don't get to work in this field and not have a high level of accountability on all levels. Guess what, a jury of peers in most of the cases will sympathize with the patient/s as their peers. And thank God for that.

Punitive damages are assigned in order to keep people accountable to the level of accepted standards of practice, and these include ethics-based standards as well. It is indeed malpractice b/c the doctor violated accepted standards of practice. Geez this is not rocket science.

The first word to learn upon entering healthcare is ACCOUNTABILITY. If you can't handle that, then don't do it.

 

[4-cyclohexene]

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/phy...-ethics/code-medical-ethics/opinion1001.page?

See no. 3.

Also:
[A boundary violation occurs when a health care professional’s behavior goes beyond appropriate professional limits. Boundary violations generally arise when a personal interest displaces the professional’s primary commitment to the patient’s welfare in ways that harm the patient or the patient-clinician relationship. Interactions between health care professionals and patients are ethically problematic when they can reasonably be expected to affect the care the individual or other patients receive or the health care professional’s relationships with colleagues—or when they give the appearance of doing so.]
http://www.ethics.va.gov/docs/necrp...ical_Boundaries_Pt-Clinician_Relationship.pdf


Also:
[The American Medical Association's Principle of Ethics clearly states that a physician "shall be dedicated to providing competent medical care with compassion and respect for human dignity and rights." It further goes on to proclaim that the physician should be honest in all professional interactions and should strive to report physician deficiencies in care and honesty.

Unfortunately, these particular physicians found no need to uphold AMA principles. Not only did they defy their professional obligations, they turned their back on the common courtesy and respect that should be shown to any human.
They both clearly demonstrated a lack of integrity to their profession — they acted a different way when they thought they were not being watched. Clearly, they demonstrated behaviors that should question their dedication to their profession and patient care.

Sadly, this event is likely not uncommon. When patients are "asleep," many healthcare providers lower their guard and forget the person that is in their care. However, all healthcare providers need to respect the patients they are caring for during all phases of care. When patients are vulnerable, there is even a higher level of expectation that the staff will protect them and respect their dignity. It is what they expect of their healthcare providers.

Although the patient’s attorney asked for $1.75 million, the jury verdict was a compromise among the jurors. With a $500,000 verdict, this case is certainly causing healthcare providers to stop and take notice. It is imperative to remember the patient’s autonomy at all times — whether they can hear us or not.]
http://exclusive.multibriefs.com/co...lly-abusing-patient/healthcare-administration

They got off light and easy, easy, easy--and that is by way of the supposedly 'stupid' Virginia jurors that made the compromise a bit easier for the defendant/s. (I am referencing someone above that made this insulting comment against the jury of peers.)

No way. You don't get to work in this field and not have a high level of accountability on all levels. Guess what, a jury of peers will in most of the cases will sympathize with the patient/s as their peers. And thank God for that.
Punitive damages are assigned in order to keep people accountable to the level of accepted standards of practice, and these include ethics-based standards as well. It is indeed malpractice b/c the doctor violated accepted standards of practice. Geez this is not rocket science.

The first word to learn upon entering healthcare is ACCOUNTABILITY. If you can't handle that, then don't do it.

thank you for this. this is SO important!!

 

[Stagg737]

But how can a sandwich maker, whose biggest mistake will be not putting enough mayo on a sandwich and upsetting a customer, be compared to a physician who insults a patient, tells him his concerns are BS and then sends him on his way to worry about his health, life, and well-being in isolation?Equality is important and holding ALL people accountable for their actions is as well. But a physicians actions and words hit much harder than a sandwich maker.

Those aren't equal comparisons. If the sandwich maker/server brought the sandwich to my table then went and told his staff that I was a huge fatass and that he wants to punch me in the face because I kept asking to make sure the meat was warm, etc. etc. I'm not saying that what the medical team did was right, I'm just saying that if it is going to become a legal case then they medical team must be held to the same legal standards as any other joe shmoe, and we all know they certainly were not. Just because society puts physicians on a pedestal doesn't mean they should, or even that we belong there.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/phy...-ethics/code-medical-ethics/opinion1001.page?

See no. 3.

Also:
[A boundary violation occurs when a health care professional’s behavior goes beyond appropriate professional limits. Boundary violations generally arise when a personal interest displaces the professional’s primary commitment to the patient’s welfare in ways that harm the patient or the patient-clinician relationship. Interactions between health care professionals and patients are ethically problematic when they can reasonably be expected to affect the care the individual or other patients receive or the health care professional’s relationships with colleagues—or when they give the appearance of doing so.]
http://www.ethics.va.gov/docs/necrp...ical_Boundaries_Pt-Clinician_Relationship.pdf


Also:
[The American Medical Association's Principle of Ethics clearly states that a physician "shall be dedicated to providing competent medical care with compassion and respect for human dignity and rights." It further goes on to proclaim that the physician should be honest in all professional interactions and should strive to report physician deficiencies in care and honesty.

Unfortunately, these particular physicians found no need to uphold AMA principles. Not only did they defy their professional obligations, they turned their back on the common courtesy and respect that should be shown to any human.
They both clearly demonstrated a lack of integrity to their profession — they acted a different way when they thought they were not being watched. Clearly, they demonstrated behaviors that should question their dedication to their profession and patient care.

Sadly, this event is likely not uncommon. When patients are "asleep," many healthcare providers lower their guard and forget the person that is in their care. However, all healthcare providers need to respect the patients they are caring for during all phases of care. When patients are vulnerable, there is even a higher level of expectation that the staff will protect them and respect their dignity. It is what they expect of their healthcare providers.

Although the patient’s attorney asked for $1.75 million, the jury verdict was a compromise among the jurors. With a $500,000 verdict, this case is certainly causing healthcare providers to stop and take notice. It is imperative to remember the patient’s autonomy at all times — whether they can hear us or not.]
http://exclusive.multibriefs.com/co...lly-abusing-patient/healthcare-administration

They got off light and easy, easy, easy--and that is by way of the supposedly 'stupid' Virginia jurors that made the compromise a bit easier for the defendant/s. (I am referencing someone above that made this insulting comment against the jury of peers.)

No way. You don't get to work in this field and not have a high level of accountability on all levels. Guess what, a jury of peers will in most of the cases will sympathize with the patient/s as their peers. And thank God for that.
Punitive damages are assigned in order to keep people accountable to the level of accepted standards of practice, and these include ethics-based standards as well. It is indeed malpractice b/c the doctor violated accepted standards of practice. Geez this is not rocket science.

The first word to learn upon entering healthcare is ACCOUNTABILITY. If you can't handle that, then don't do it.

Except you're forgetting the fact that the AMA and the laws of the United States and the state of Virginia are two completely different entities with completely different standards. Should these physicians have been sued for malpractice and false documentation? Absolutely. Should they have been charged punitive damages based on the the legal definition of those crimes? Hell no, because according to the law they didn't break it!! Their ethical behavior in this situation and the punishment associated with it should have been implemented by the AMA, not the courts and jury who overstepped their bounds in this case.

There's a**holes, liars, and cheats in medicine just like every other profession and that unfortunately will never change. Get used to it. It's not right or something that should be tolerated, but that's how it is. One must still try and follow the law as it's written though and allow the different groups (the courts and AMA) to handle the appropriate parts of the case.

 

[jl lin]

One of the worst things to me was a comment I found w/ reference to not only this case, but how things can really roll in the OR. Hmm, guess every time I have been in there, everyone was on their best behavior--either that or I started zoning out during vein harvesting or something like that, and then zoned back in for the cooling and clamping.

But even in the beginning of my nursing career, there were horror stories re: what can go on in the OR. Reports of verbal abuse or things flying across the rooms, along with the length of time standing in one place and some other things scared many nurses away from working direct periop. Certainly this is not so with every surgeon or ologist, but enough tales have be told from a number of people and places. Historically the "bad guys" had been the surgeons according to these reports. I took a lot of them w/ grains of salt; but then other times, some peoples' consistently poor behavior couldn't be hidden forever. But here it is the ologist acting as the "bad guy." IDK whoever you are, there is enough for which you must take great care. Luckily most of the surgeons and ologists I know are pretty fastidious and focused; so I can't see them screwing off too much in there--and as I have stated, I have never witnessed this kind of thing. The pimping thing is definitely true though. So really I don't know where the ologist's head was, and that's why I think she would benefit from some outside help.

SICU recovery was my thing, so, I guess there are shenanigans that may go on in the OR or procedure suites. But I do think certain people may be more careful around certain nurses; while around other techs and nurses, they show a side many of us would rather not see. I wouldn't have a lot of tolerance for that. Innocent joking sure. Verbally attacking people--especially patients, and the other things that were reported in this case, no freaking way.

And sure the patients in the OR don't have cell phones w/ them or anything for them that meets modern demands of technological documentation. But people have reported things they have heard in twilight or on some level-and there is subconscious influences as well.

Anyways, this was the comment that bothered me was this one:

"Having worked on cases defending surgeons on med mal, and interviewing many RN’s, it get’s REALLY rough in the OR, this is fairly tame compared to some of the tales I’ve heard."

Sigh.

See, I am sorry; but there is absolutely no reason for this kind of thing--boy's club or no boy's club. Some in medicine have been setting a very bad tone for other up and coming docs. Who is setting the tone?

 

[jl lin]

Those aren't equal comparisons. If the sandwich maker/server brought the sandwich to my table then went and told his staff that I was a huge fatass and that he wants to punch me in the face because I kept asking to make sure the meat was warm, etc. etc. I'm not saying that what the medical team did was right, I'm just saying that if it is going to become a legal case then they medical team must be held to the same legal standards as any other joe shmoe, and we all know they certainly were not. Just because society puts physicians on a pedestal doesn't mean they should, or even that we belong there.



Except you're forgetting the fact that the AMA and the laws of the United States and the state of Virginia are two completely different entities with completely different standards. Should these physicians have been sued for malpractice and false documentation? Absolutely. Should they have been charged punitive damages based on the the legal definition of those crimes? Hell no, because according to the law they didn't break it!! Their ethical behavior in this situation and the punishment associated with it should have been implemented by the AMA, not the courts and jury who overstepped their bounds in this case.

There's a**holes, liars, and cheats in medicine just like every other profession and that unfortunately will never change. Get used to it. It's not right or something that should be tolerated, but that's how it is. One must still try and follow the law as it's written though and allow the different groups (the courts and AMA) to handle the appropriate parts of the case.

It doesn't matter, the law and case law will make these applicable. There is the fundamental standard of practice w/ regard to dignity, respectfulness, etc, that the defendant definitely violated. And now, thankfully, there is the establishment of one more piece to add to reasonable accountability.

Funny, everyone is making a big deal over this, and so far as anyone can tell, no board actions have been taken against this doctor or the other doc.


But we can leave this to the great legal minds and get down to brace tax. OK, so here it is. You know what will hurt this doctor or potentially any other doctor more than the penalty she received????? WORD OF MOUTH. The publicity will significantly hurt her career--and she did it to herself.


I think it comes down to something more problematic in society, and that is in seeing the whole value of the individual, especially the one that has come to you for medical treatment while they are most vulnerable. But word of mouth can make or break you. People on the inside should have been policing their own.

I have no problem working under surveillance--and I have had to do it on many occasions. I am there to work carefully, compassionately, respectfully, and vigilantly. I am not there to play clubhouse. The patients, families, General Public, or the insurance companies don't expect us to be their to play clubhouse.

BTW there are some places that record all their surgeries for their own protection.

I am sorry but the cornerstone of medical practice between a patient and physician is TRUST. There is an expectation of trust and the following of patients rights, whether or not they are under some level of sedation or GAS or not.

What goes around comes around though. That's not just some saying. I have seen it. And this ologist previously had only 2 stars out of like 16 on Health Grades.

So don't just worry about the case law here. If people have half empty souls, well, that will catch up with them; but moreover, they need to know that word of mouth and one's reputation in healthcare and medicine is a huge deal.

 

[WingedOx]

Also, they basically limited a doctor's freedom of speech by ruling that inappropriate speech is malpractice. That's just huge. Look at oppressive countries and societies, where one is afraid to say anything politically incorrect (by authoritarian standards). It won't feel much different, when the alternative to controlling one's mouth is $50K per occurrence.

Unfortunately this case doesn't change what has always been true in medical malpractice. Your ability to communicate with a patient will have a greater determination of if you get sued or not than your actual outcomes. For better or worse, free speech isn't (and has never been) speech without consequences.

 

[jb94mg]

BAD@$$es, whether they are surgeons, anesthesiologists, fighter pilots, army rangers, and on and on, talk mad smack. it doesn't mean they lack a heart or are incompetent. every surgeon that i know (not too many) say things much worse that what this lady said. anyone who has chilled with marines before knows they talk more smack than smack can be smacked, but then they turn around and risk their lives for sissies like this guy to take bad@sses to court. bunch of no testicle/no ovary ungrateful losers in today's society. also, people who can't stomach what this doctor said in the OR would never fly on an airplane again if they heard the conversations in the cockpit. welcome to earth where a lot of men and women grow more than peach fuzz on their genitalia.

Thought about not calling you out, and at least @SouthernSurgeon and @Mad Jack already pretty well embarrassed you as expected, but your comments are way more egregious than are anyone else's in here. You seem to hold to some demonstrably sexist views, unless you were trolling. Anyone who talks about ball hair, being as tough as a Marine, or about how someone who cares about having their feelings hurt is a "sissy" is a sexist who thinks that only girls can acceptably not be "tough" enough to endure all struggles and situations, and who has absorbed and latched onto what his culture has tried to tell him is the way things are. It is not sad or pathetic for men to care about what is said about them, or to have their feelings hurt by rude remarks that others make. It doesn't make them "sissies." "Sissy", "f@g", "wuss," and so on are just terms that ignorant people like you who try to be gender police use.

I hope you realize that you only have one name. This woman (lady would be too kind) will never outlive this. Your character is going to stay with you no matter where you go. And with the flow of information in current society something like this won't ever be cleared from your record or forgotten. Beyond that, it's pathetic that despite over 40 and an attending, she wasn't prepared to deal with a possibly difficult patient. Obviously you're going to have some patients who're afraid of needles if you work in anesthesiology. She should expect people like this and know how to help them feel comfortable, rather than going on temper tantrums/tangents any time someone doesn't cater to her desires. This case is a prime example of why sociology is being required as a pre-req now; is it really surprising, given that things like this probably rampantly occur? People who have been fed/indoctrinated with the gender binary BS love to play the "toughen up" card any time someone has an understandable concern.

 

[pd1112]

I made an observation about coincidental events. Your response reflects poorly on you not on me.

Wut

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/phy...-ethics/code-medical-ethics/opinion1001.page?

See no. 3.

Also:
[A boundary violation occurs when a health care professional’s behavior goes beyond appropriate professional limits. Boundary violations generally arise when a personal interest displaces the professional’s primary commitment to the patient’s welfare in ways that harm the patient or the patient-clinician relationship. Interactions between health care professionals and patients are ethically problematic when they can reasonably be expected to affect the care the individual or other patients receive or the health care professional’s relationships with colleagues—or when they give the appearance of doing so.]
http://www.ethics.va.gov/docs/necrp...ical_Boundaries_Pt-Clinician_Relationship.pdf


Also:
[The American Medical Association's Principle of Ethics clearly states that a physician "shall be dedicated to providing competent medical care with compassion and respect for human dignity and rights." It further goes on to proclaim that the physician should be honest in all professional interactions and should strive to report physician deficiencies in care and honesty.

Unfortunately, these particular physicians found no need to uphold AMA principles. Not only did they defy their professional obligations, they turned their back on the common courtesy and respect that should be shown to any human.
They both clearly demonstrated a lack of integrity to their profession — they acted a different way when they thought they were not being watched. Clearly, they demonstrated behaviors that should question their dedication to their profession and patient care.

Sadly, this event is likely not uncommon. When patients are "asleep," many healthcare providers lower their guard and forget the person that is in their care. However, all healthcare providers need to respect the patients they are caring for during all phases of care. When patients are vulnerable, there is even a higher level of expectation that the staff will protect them and respect their dignity. It is what they expect of their healthcare providers.

Although the patient’s attorney asked for $1.75 million, the jury verdict was a compromise among the jurors. With a $500,000 verdict, this case is certainly causing healthcare providers to stop and take notice. It is imperative to remember the patient’s autonomy at all times — whether they can hear us or not.]
http://exclusive.multibriefs.com/co...lly-abusing-patient/healthcare-administration

They got off light and easy, easy, easy--and that is by way of the supposedly 'stupid' Virginia jurors that made the compromise a bit easier for the defendant/s. (I am referencing someone above that made this insulting comment against the jury of peers.)

No way. You don't get to work in this field and not have a high level of accountability on all levels. Guess what, a jury of peers in most of the cases will sympathize with the patient/s as their peers. And thank God for that.

Punitive damages are assigned in order to keep people accountable to the level of accepted standards of practice, and these include ethics-based standards as well. It is indeed malpractice b/c the doctor violated accepted standards of practice. Geez this is not rocket science.

The first word to learn upon entering healthcare is ACCOUNTABILITY. If you can't handle that, then don't do it.

Uh FYI the AMA represents a very small minority of practicing physicians that said principles govern. The overwhelmingly majority of members are med students who joined 12 other clubs in the first week of school and only joined this one because 1. They/we didn't realize what a joke it was & 2. Netter's flash cards & RR Path for $64 + qbank discounts.

 

[Psai]

It doesn't matter, the law and case law will make these applicable. There is the fundamental standard of practice w/ regard to dignity, respectfulness, etc, that the defendant definitely violated. And now, thankfully, there is the establishment of one more piece to add to reasonable accountability.

Funny, everyone is making a big deal over this, and so far as anyone can tell, no board actions have been taken against this doctor or the other doc.


But we can leave this to the great legal minds and get down to brace tax. OK, so here it is. You know what will hurt this doctor or potentially any other doctor more than the penalty she received????? WORD OF MOUTH. The publicity will significantly hurt her career--and she did it to herself.


I think it comes down to something more problematic in society, and that is in seeing the whole value of the individual, especially the one that has come to you for medical treatment while they are most vulnerable. But word of mouth can make or break you. People on the inside should have been policing their own.

I have no problem working under surveillance--and I have had to do it on many occasions. I am there to work carefully, compassionately, respectfully, and vigilantly. I am not there to play clubhouse. The patients, families, General Public, or the insurance companies don't expect us to be their to play clubhouse.

BTW there are some places that record all their surgeries for their own protection.

I am sorry but the cornerstone of medical practice between a patient and physician is TRUST. There is an expectation of trust and the following of patients rights, whether or not they are under some level of sedation or GAS or not.

What goes around comes around though. That's not just some saying. I have seen it. And this ologist previously had only 2 stars out of like 16 on Health Grades.

So don't just worry about the case law here. If people have half empty souls, well, that will catch up with them; but moreover, they need to know that word of mouth and one's reputation in healthcare and medicine is a huge deal.

Not a lawyer or a doctor.

 

[DOFOSHO]

.

 

[Psai]

you totally misinterpreted my post. never talked about ball hair, or those other politically incorrect terms you used in your post. i said people in general need to stop being sissies (men and women) and suing people left and right. i never said women are inferior to men, ever. most women i've worked with in medicine have bigger ovaries than i have testicles and would be the last people i would say are inferior to anyone. but if you are one of the people who gets their panties/boxers in a bunch, then go around suing people when your feelings get hurt, then i reserve the right to call you a sissy. The word sissy was not meant to equate anyone with a woman, its generally reserved for dudes who act like crybabies.

wat

 

[jb94mg]

you totally misinterpreted my post. never talked about ball hair, or those other politically incorrect terms you used in your post. i said people in general need to stop being sissies (men and women) and suing people left and right. i never said women are inferior to men, ever. most women i've worked with in medicine have bigger ovaries than i have testicles and would be the last people i would say are inferior to anyone. but if you are one of the people who gets their panties/boxers in a bunch, then go around suing people when your feelings get hurt, then i reserve the right to call you a sissy. The word sissy was not meant to equate anyone with a woman, its generally reserved for dudes who act like crybabies.

"Sissy" is a term that's definitely associated with sexism. This isn't about being inferior or superior; you don't seem to understand the sexism in this context, which is more about prejudiced views on gender roles than the value of women. In calling people sissies you're not only suggesting that you don't respect emotional girls because they're not "tough enough," but that men who struggle with anything are also "sissies," and that only females should ever lack courage or strength. All of this just reinforces the gender binary that assumes people of different sexes should have certain culturally imposed traits. "Sissy is a pejorative term for a man or boy who does not meet the standard male gender role" - straight from Wikipedia. Even if you're not using the term appropriately, it is still being used to criticize those who don't behave like you believe they should.

 

[Jabbed]

Thought about not calling you out, and at least @SouthernSurgeon and @Mad Jack already pretty well embarrassed you as expected, but your comments are way more egregious than are anyone else's in here. You seem to hold to some demonstrably sexist views, unless you were trolling. Anyone who talks about ball hair, being as tough as a Marine, or about how someone who cares about having their feelings hurt is a "sissy" is a sexist who thinks that only girls can acceptably not be "tough" enough to endure all struggles and situations, and who has absorbed and latched onto what his culture has tried to tell him is the way things are. It is not sad or pathetic for men to care about what is said about them, or to have their feelings hurt by rude remarks that others make. It doesn't make them "sissies." "Sissy", "f@g", "wuss," and so on are just terms that ignorant people like you who try to be gender police use.

I hope you realize that you only have one name. This woman (lady would be too kind) will never outlive this. Your character is going to stay with you no matter where you go. And with the flow of information in current society something like this won't ever be cleared from your record or forgotten. Beyond that, it's pathetic that despite over 40 and an attending, she wasn't prepared to deal with a possibly difficult patient. Obviously you're going to have some patients who're afraid of needles if you work in anesthesiology. She should expect people like this and know how to help them feel comfortable, rather than going on temper tantrums/tangents any time someone doesn't cater to her desires. This case is a prime example of why sociology is being required as a pre-req now; is it really surprising, given that things like this probably rampantly occur? People who have been fed/indoctrinated with the gender binary BS love to play the "toughen up" card any time someone has an understandable concern.

You're going to do very well in your med school professionalism classes.

 

[DOFOSHO]

..

 

[jb94mg]

You're going to do very well in your med school professionalism classes.

Sarcasm or serious? If you're serious, thanks.

 

[jb94mg]

bro, our definitions of the word sissy differ. I don't think less of women, nor did I intend for the term to demean women. Obviously this is very upsetting to you. never did i suggest that females lack courage or strength. I'll agree that my use of the term sissy is not consistent with wikipedia's definition but don't put words in my mouth.

Imagine all the work that was required to get to the level of that doctor and all her hard work and all the patients she's helped, only to have her life flipped upside down because 1 person who got their feelings hurt. If you were that man/woman, you'd probably have some choice words as well. maybe after your first month of medical school when you realize the hard work that is required you'll develop a little bit of sympathy for the doctor. that may be difficult to grasp as a premed.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. Everything I said was gleaned straight from your posts. I don't doubt that she worked very hard; she should've known, however, by that point that actions have consequences. What she did was very unprofessional. Her having worked hard to get to that point doesn't give her the right to just do whatever she wants. The patient is the most important person in healthcare, not the physician. Nice ad hominem, though.

 

[DOFOSHO]

.

 

[jl lin]

Wut



Uh FYI the AMA represents a very small minority of practicing physicians that said principles govern. The overwhelmingly majority of members are med students who joined 12 other clubs in the first week of school and only joined this one because 1. They/we didn't realize what a joke it was & 2. Netter's flash cards & RR Path for $64 + qbank discounts.

FYI I know that. And that is expressly WHY I posted more than one sources re: medical ethical standards. If you didn't see that or the connected points, well, I don't know what to say to you. Wow.

 

[jl lin]

its against SDN policy so I won't do it, but if someone calls you a sissy down the road, don't be surprised, and don't sue them for 500K.

Mic drop

Um this case demonstrated clearly that this was about A LOT more than calling someone a sissy. Bullying isn't all that far from hating that leads to injury of people and groups of people. Study history. Study how groups were riled up gradually to dehumanize people and hate them. You think the Holocaust just sprang up out of nowhere??????? It involved levity at first, then other more "mildly" demeaning influences, and then more gradual tolerance for the clear indoctrination of hate.

This woman and those that worked with her need serious counseling. That her colleague didn't call her on it is a prime example of tolerance of malicious behavior, which is indeed bullying and is abusive and downright hateful to people/patients. That is what patients are after all---they are people--and each is a PERSON.

I think people should be required to read and study a lot more of human history--as well as psychology and sociology. People are missing the major dynamics of individuals and groups of individuals, and why making this woman and her colleague an example is important. If medicine won't carefully monitor and set the tone in its profession than you can bet that those elsewhere that influence public policy will.

Change up the approach/teaching and attitude in ms and post-medical training. I have said this a million times in my field, and I am certain it is no less true in the field of medicine--NOT everyone is meant to lead, teach, mentor, and influence those coming into medicine. I don't know who set the tone for that ologist, OR if some switch in her just went screwy. Point is, again, if medicine won't reasonably police it's own and set the proper tone for it's own--others of influence and in public policy will.

Accountability is the key thing. We are accountable for how we speak, behave, treat others. What we do and say has consequences. It kills me that there are folks that don't have a strong internal compass that makes them think and then re-think how they interact with others or have that internal compass of compassion and empathy--or perhaps somewhere something happened to it for this woman--but her colleagued just went along with it and became part of it--and this is where you see the difference between true leaders and plain ole followers. But respect, compassion, dignity for patients are expected and it SHOULD BE.

 

[jb94mg]

This stuff is beyond political correctness. It's ROTFL stuff, coming from a supposed scientist. Seriously, what do you think testosterone does to a male? Makes him nice? Is that why people get rage attacks from injecting themselves with anabolic steroids, or just from being adolescent males?

Some traits are not culturally imposed, they are biologically-imposed. This is why women have a maternal instinct, for example, and I don't. What is culturally-imposed is the idea that males and females differ mostly just by their genitals. So yes, men and women will have different instincts, and thus different psychologies.

It has nothing to do with sexism., which means something completely different: "prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." (Google). There is nothing "against women" when one calls a male sissy. It suggests lack of testosterone, which would be absolutely normal in a woman.

Nice straw mans and red herrings. When did I claim to be a scientist? Lulz. You're trying to attack things I didn't even say, and basically admitting that you agree with the gender policing-type views DOFOSHO has expressed. And gender policing is a type of sexism, so you're the one who isn't able to understand it, which is why you had to look up the definition. Being a male doesn't mean that you can endure all struggles just because of your sex. I'm out.

 

[Psai]

so weak when people feel the need to announce that they are ignoring people or that they're out of a thread when they're going to post again

 

[deleted171991]

Um this case demonstrated clearly that this was about A LOT more than calling someone a sissy. Bullying isn't all that far from hating that leads to injury of people and groups of people. Study history. Study how groups were riled up gradually to dehumanize people and hate them. You think the Holocaust just sprang up out of nowhere??????? It involved levity at first, then other more "mildly" demeaning influences, and then more gradual tolerance for the clear indoctrination of hate.

One cannot "bully" somebody who's asleep.

And you're confusing frustration with hate. Perfectly normal and very nice people will occasionally get very frustrated (by certain patients), not that I have any idea whether she is either. But only people who have not walked in a physician's (or customer service representative's, or salesperson's) shoes will be so black and white.

The normal reaction to a long and tiring day and patients is to vent to friends/coworkers. It's not "professional", but it's normal. We all admit that she went waaaay beyond what's normal with venting and joking. But one should not punish really bad taste, humor and human (not clinical) judgment as malpractice.

 

[DOFOSHO]

.

 

[deleted171991]

Accountability is the key thing. We are accountable for how we speak, behave, treat others. What we do and say has consequences. It kills me that there are folks that don't have a strong internal compass that makes them think and then re-think how they interact with others or have that internal compass of compassion and empathy--or perhaps somewhere something happened to it for this woman--but her colleagued just went along with it and became part of it--and this is where you see the difference between true leaders and plain ole followers. But respect, compassion, dignity for patients are expected and it SHOULD BE.

You are right, in an ideal world, and we should all aim for this ideal. In the real world, people make mistakes, and don't deserve to have their hand cut off, especially the first time they are caught. This was an occurrence, not a pattern. Some compassion should go towards the anesthesiologist, too, especially after that summary judgment and the ongoing character assassination.

People are generally not politicians. Hence they don't "think and re-think" what to say, so that it cannot be turned against them. Especially when tired or frustrated. People say some stupid things when they vent. And working with (entitled) people for an entire day (and lifetime), is no walk in the park. Normal and very nice people, especially physicians, can burn out really badly. Some will even go on to committing suicide, many of them anesthesiologists.

I will take this "holier than thou" attitude from anybody who has never made a really stupid and regrettable mistake in his/her life. I am not religious, but Jesus said it so well 2000 years ago: "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

 

[jl lin]

One cannot "bully" somebody who's asleep.

And you're confusing frustration with hate.

Sure they can. No, her statements were indeed malicious and hateful--doesn't matter if she was displacing or not. There is no excuse or out for her--and neither should there be. I would never allow this person to go near my loved ones or me with a 100 ft pole. She needs serious help. She can still get help for her "mistakes." That's not the issue though.

I was orienting one new nurse in a critical care unit once. He was a nice guy, but he just wasn't thinking--and he was no where near as vicious as this ologist. Anyway this patient was so unstable, she was in chemically induced comma. When changing her dressings, he smacked at her moderately rotund abdomen and said things like "MY little Budda woman." There were other things as well, but it's been a while and I don't remember all of them right now. I cautioned him about watching what he says even when someone is deeply sedate and so forth. I also told him this is a violation of standards in practice--I mean I smiled at the guy and didn't want to seem too harsh w/ him b/c he was very new--but I did firmly make the point. A few days later, as the woman improved, she remembered this nurse and asked for the manager to not allow this nurse to take of her. The nurse was astounded, but I was not. Hopefully he learned something.

The expectation of trust, respect, and dignity is there and is required w/ all aspects and points of care. And being "asleep" isn't as simple as you may think.

A person's character is demonstrated well by way of what they do when they think no one is looking.

Make no mistake, this was abusive, bullying behavior--especially since the patient was in the more vulnerable position on multiple levels. This is in fact what makes her actions even more caustic--b/c she mistreated him when he could not stand up and protect himself. Whether or not he recorded it is immaterial to what those docs did. And just b/c someone doesn't have a recording device doesn't mean their own mind is working as one.

I mean this is kind of like saying a person that is sexually abused under rohypnol doesn't mean they were abused. And just b/c a person was under some level of sedation doesn't mean they were not disrespected and abused--verbally as well as with regard to his medical record or w/ defaming statements. It happened, and frankly, I am glad the man had a recording of what transpired, b/c w/o the recording, that may have allowed this kind of thing to continue to go on w/o public awareness, accountability, and so forth--all b/c medicine wasn't policing their own in that procedure room.

At ALL POINTS OF CARE the patient must be treated with respect, dignity, free agency, etc. There is no exception for this while they are under some form of sedation or anesthesia. The ETHICAL AND LEGAL expectation is still there--at all points--once more, All points.

And once more, don't assume patient's won't necessarily remember certain things when they are under sedation and so forth. People will surprise you with that. I have worked with sedated or unconcious people for over 20 years. I am telling you, not everyone has everything wiped out.

Regardless, my above comments still stand, b/c the expectation is still there whether or not their state of consciousness is altered.

A court WILL look at the expectation of delivery of care and any actual or potential negative effects--and this is why malpractice is included. You don't think psychologists can be brought up on charges of malpractice? You don't actually have to physically hurt someone's body to do damage to them. But it is important, overall, to understand and respect the EXPECTATION of maintaining standards of care on all levels and at all points of care. You miss this, you miss the big picture.

 

[sleepallday]

wow. Tons of naive and inexperienced posts on this thread. Good luck to ya'll in the real world

 

[Psai]

Sure they can. No, her statements were indeed malicious and hateful--doesn't matter if she was displacing or not. They were, and there is no excuse or out for her--and neither should there be. I would never allow this person to go near my loved ones or me with a 100 ft pole. She needs serious help.

I was orienting one new nurse in a critical care unit once. He was a nice guy, but he just wasn't thinking--and he was no where near as vicious as this person. Anyway this patient was so unstable, she was in chemically induced comma. When changing her dressings, he smacked at her moderately rotund abdomen and said things like "MY little Budda woman." There were other things as well, but it's been a while and I don't remember all of them right now. I cautioned him about watching what he says even when some is deeply sedate and so forth. I also told him this is a violation of standards in practice--I mean I smiled at the guy and didn't want to seem to harsh w/ him b/c he was very new--but I did firmly make the point. A few days later, as the woman improved, she remember this nurse and asked for the manager to not allow this nurse to take of her. The nurse was astounded, but I looked him. Hopefully he learned something. The expectation of trust, respect, and dignity is there and required w/ all aspects and points of care. Being "asleep" isn't as simple as you may think.
A person character is demonstrated well by way of what they do when they think no one is looking.

Make no mistake, this was abusive, bullying behavior--especially since the patient was in the more vulnerable position on multiple levels. This is in fact what makes her actions even more caustic--b/c she mistreated him when he could not stand up and protect himself. Whether or not he recorded it is immaterial to what those docs did. Just b/c someone doesn't have a recording device doesn't mean their own mind is working as one.
I mean this is kind of like saying a person that is sexually abused under rohypnol doesn't mean they were abused. And just b/c a person was under some level of sedation doesn't mean they were not disrespected and abused--verbally as well as with regard to his medical record or w/ defaming statements. It happened, and frankly, I am glad the man had a recording of what transpired, b/c that would have allowed this kind of thing to continue to go on w/o public awareness, accountability, and so forth--all b/c medicine wasn't policing their own.

At ALL POINTS OF CARE the patient must be treated with respect, dignity, free agency, etc. There is no exception for this while they are under some form of sedation or anesthesia. The ETHICAL AND LEGAL expectation is still there--at all points--once more, All points.

And once more, don't assume patient's won't necessarily remember certain things when they are under sedation and so forth. People will surprise you with that. I have worked with sedated people for over 20 years. I am telling you, not everyone has everything wiped out. Regardless, my above comments still stand, b/c the expectation is still there whether or not their state of consciousness is altered. A court WILL look at the expectation of delivery of care and any actual or potential negative effects--and this is why malpractice is included. You don't think psychologists can be brought up on charges of malpractice? You don't actually have to hurt someone's body to do damage to them. But it is important, overall, to understand and respect the EXPECTATION of maintaining standards of care on all levels and at all points of care. You miss this, you miss the big picture.

I too have issues with patients remembering what I did to them during their chemically induced commas

 

[jl lin]

You are right, in an ideal world, and we should all aim for this ideal. In the real world, people make mistakes, and don't deserve to have their hand cut off, especially the first time they are caught. This was an occurrence, not a pattern. Some compassion should go towards the anesthesiologist, too, especially after that summary judgment and the ongoing character assassination.

People are generally not politicians. Hence they don't "think and re-think" what to say, so that it cannot be turned against them. Especially when tired or frustrated. People say some stupid things when they vent. And working with (entitled) people for an entire day (and lifetime), is no walk in the park. Normal and very nice people, especially physicians, can burn out really badly. Some will even go on to committing suicide, many of them anesthesiologists.

I will take this "holier than thou" attitude from anybody who has never made a really stupid and regrettable mistake in his/her life. I am not religious, but Jesus said it so well 2000 years ago: "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

Which is trumped my the Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." And that is b/c of this:

Matthew 22:34-40: "But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together.35 One of them, [n]a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him,36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’38 This is the greatest and [o]foremost commandment.39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Remember, you introduced the use of Scripture here, not that anyone should apologize for it anymore than any other profound quote from others. Point is Jesus summed up ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS by saying Loving Him first and then LOVING OTHERS AS YOU LOVE YOURSELF trumped everything else in the LAW; b/c if you do and have this in you, you are not going to want to steal, kill, or any of those other things discussed in the Aseret Hadevarim or The Decalogue. See, He doesn't put the cart before the horse. The horse drives the cart; and in similar manner what Jesus prioritized here is the power by which those other laws are driven. But that is enough of Scriptural discussion for today. Again, I went there b/c you did. But I see nothing inherently wrong with looking at Christian ethics and philosophy, so. . .

 

[jl lin]

wow. Tons of naive and inexperienced posts on this thread. Good luck to ya'll in the real world

I am not sure which persons you are addressing; but I can assure you, I am neither naive or inexperienced in very demanding circles of healthcare.

 

[jl lin]

I thought we weren't supposed to be able to see those on ignore--that they even have posted anything? But I would bet the bank on their hating--probably ad hominems--especially against those w/ strong positions/arguments. Ah well.

 

[DOFOSHO]

.

 

[jl lin]

what-goes-around-come-around.jpg