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Is it okay if I've been only listening to and agreeing with the actual physicians (and med students) in this thread because they actually know what they're talking about?
'Anesthesiologist trashes sedated patient — and it ends up costing her'
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Do you honestly not understand the difference between a medical treatment - like surgery or prescribing medicines and a social treatment - like if the bus driver is nice to you or if a friend you see at the store is a bitch to you?
I'll go with "Rhetorical Questions" for $500, Alex.
See. This lack of understanding of holistic impact is what people are talking about in other threads. If you understood that, you would understand treating The WHOLE person and the interacting dimensions.
Beyond ALL or any of that,ROTFLMAO, you are completely missing the precedent is SET!!!! Wow!
I'd be surprised if this is changed under appeal. It would be a tragedy if it were. Still thus far it has not been. Precedent is SET!!!!!!!!! Get it??????
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Jesus Christ
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No actually they don't. But find out for yourself....hoprfly not the hard way.
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Lol, except the med students and physicians don't agree with each other. Didn't read everything but it seems like the more senior the poster the more sympathetic he/she is towards the anesthesiologist.
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You still don't get it. Holistic treatment has nothing to do with anything about this case. Nothing whatsoever. If you look up state laws about the practice of medicine, "feelings" aren't included in there at all. Here's what my state has to say about it:
(36) "Practice of Medicine" means:
(a) advertising, holding out to the public or representing in any manner that one is authorized to practice medicine in this State;
(b) offering or undertaking to prescribe, order, give, or administer any drug or medicine for the use of any other person;
(c) offering or undertaking to prevent or to diagnose, correct or treat in any manner, or by any means, methods, or devices, disease, illness, pain, wound, fracture, infirmity, defect, or abnormal physical or mental condition of a person, including the management or pregnancy and parturition;
(d) offering or undertaking to perform any surgical operation upon a person;
(e) rendering a written or otherwise documented medical opinion concerning the diagnosis or treatment of a patient or the actual rendering of treatment to a patient within this State by a physician located outside the State as a result of transmission of individual patient data by electronic or other means from within a state to such physician or his or her agent;
(f) rendering a determination of medical necessity or a decision affecting the diagnosis and/or treatment of a patient is the practice of medicine subject to all of the powers provided to the Board of Medical Examiners, except as provided in Section 38-59-25;
(g) using the designation Doctor, Doctor of Medicine, Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine, Physician, Surgeon, Physician and Surgeon, Dr., M.D., D.O., or any combination of these in the conduct of any occupation or profession pertaining to the prevention, diagnosis, or treatment of human disease or condition unless such a designation additionally contains the description of another branch of the healing arts for which one holds a valid license in this State that is applicable to the clinical setting; and
(h) testifying as a physician in an administrative, civil, or criminal proceeding in this State by expressing an expert medical opinion.
The only time "treatment" is used is when talking about diagnosing/treating human diseases or conditions. It does not mention treatment in the way that you do, meaning how you treat someone - like telling your kids to treat other people how they want to be treated. The whole acting like a jackass, as the MD did in this case, is an ethical violation and treated differently than a malpractice type violation.
As for "precedent", lower courts don't really set precedent in the way that you mean it. They have what is called persuasive precedent, which is nonbinding. It is left to higher courts, generally speaking, to set binding precedent.
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Not really. We (attendings) all mostly agree the MD screwed up and should be punished. We disagree on the how and how much.
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I'm supposed to believe a nurse knows more about how physician malpractice works than actual attending physicians who have to deal with it every day? You're not an authority on this subject, especially after the increasingly long-winded and ridiculous posts that several physician members have called you out on. I'm just a lowly MS-0 and have no authority whatsoever. But I am going to choose to listen to actual attending physicians on matters of medical malpractice every single time.
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How do I unfollow this thread?
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Click "Unwatch thread." If on mobile, click on top right corner and then click "Unsubscribe."
I don't care what you believe. Take your chances and roll the dice; but unfortunately, it will be at someone else's expense, that is, if you think and behave like Dr. Ingram. I also worry about the practitioner's ability to focus if they are so busy mouthing off about said patient. Shut your mouth and focus carefully on what you are doing, and take the crap you feel in your life to a therapist or to the gym--but don't take it out on individuals in your care.
And I guess the case, ruled as is was (which was way lenient in my view), is just a mere episode from Grey's anatomy???? Um the verdict was given. It's not like some fantasy. It actually happened, so it's beyond me why you continue to argue this. This is a part of case law now. Deal with it. Stop missing the fact that the jury finding actually happened. And also, going back to 2014, the medical licensing board didn't and still hasn't done a thing.
And people want to know why individuals and groups should have the right to sue for malpractice and punitive damages?
Well, here it is. Unfortunately for some percentage of folks in healthcare practicing with a license, sadly, it is the main or only impetus by which they can keep the correct sense of accountability for their professional behavior--or lack thereof. Apparently Ingram and her colleague did not feel the need to be accountable for their behavior. Fortunately, this was a relatively easy case for Ingram, and not a major procedure in an OR w/ a very high risk patient. Focus, shut your mouth and do your job right--and that includes treating the patient right--regardless of his/her level of consciousness.
A jury said indeed these "professionals" were/are accountable for their behavior. That's just good sense. You want people in healthcare and medicine to be fully accountable for their professional behavior--or lack thereof. Why wouldn't you want that of your colleagues????
The medical board should have made them so; but they did not and still have not. That's way sadder that the $500,000 hit. And so is the fact that word of mouth will do serious damage to the physicians' careers.
There was no justification for their behavior, and there is no rationalization and should be no omitting of serious consequences for their behavior. None. Zip. Get over it. They were damned wrong, and they need to get the message, and apparently some other folks do too.
IF you choose to come back w/ nasty comments b/c you believe this is untrue, well, I don't know. What might that say about you?
At any rate, this thread got a good run for the money.
And I guess the case, ruled as is was (which was way lenient in my view), is just a mere episode from Grey's anatomy???? Um the verdict was given. It's not like some fantasy. It actually happened, so it's beyond me why you continue to argue this. This is a part of case law now. Deal with it. Stop missing the fact that the jury finding actually happened. And also, going back to 2014, the medical licensing board didn't and still hasn't done a thing.
And people want to know why individuals and groups should have the right to sue for malpractice and punitive damages?
Well, here it is. Unfortunately for some percentage of folks in healthcare practicing with a license, sadly, it is the main or only impetus by which they can keep the correct sense of accountability for their professional behavior--or lack thereof. Apparently Ingram and her colleague did not feel the need to be accountable for their behavior. Fortunately, this was a relatively easy case for Ingram, and not a major procedure in an OR w/ a very high risk patient. Focus, shut your mouth and do your job right--and that includes treating the patient right--regardless of his/her level of consciousness.
A jury said indeed these "professionals" were/are accountable for their behavior. That's just good sense. You want people in healthcare and medicine to be fully accountable for their professional behavior--or lack thereof. Why wouldn't you want that of your colleagues????
The medical board should have made them so; but they did not and still have not. That's way sadder that the $500,000 hit. And so is the fact that word of mouth will do serious damage to the physicians' careers.
There was no justification for their behavior, and there is no rationalization and should be no omitting of serious consequences for their behavior. None. Zip. Get over it. They were damned wrong, and they need to get the message, and apparently some other folks do too.
IF you choose to come back w/ nasty comments b/c you believe this is untrue, well, I don't know. What might that say about you?
At any rate, this thread got a good run for the money.
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Jesus
Ill be the scapegoat. Everyone in medicine talks **** about patients. OR or not. The person sued was caught. Sucks, but it seriously makes me laugh that everyone makes her to be a bad person. The **** I hear (and I'm sure everyone else does) makes this seem like a joke. Unfortunately, it makes it more understandable why nothing should be recorded in the OR. Yes, they say things. But everyone in medicine talks **** about patients every day. Why not record the team rooms? Or staff rooms? Patients would be getting 500k daily.
I'm not insulting not condoning. But give it a rest. Everyone in medicine talks **** about patients. She was caught. But don't judge her like she's the worst physician ever.
Ill be the scapegoat. Everyone in medicine talks **** about patients. OR or not. The person sued was caught. Sucks, but it seriously makes me laugh that everyone makes her to be a bad person. The **** I hear (and I'm sure everyone else does) makes this seem like a joke. Unfortunately, it makes it more understandable why nothing should be recorded in the OR. Yes, they say things. But everyone in medicine talks **** about patients every day. Why not record the team rooms? Or staff rooms? Patients would be getting 500k daily.
I'm not insulting not condoning. But give it a rest. Everyone in medicine talks **** about patients. She was caught. But don't judge her like she's the worst physician ever.
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Right.
I have no response. Because I don't even know which states will enforce it nor which cops will.
You haven't dealt with cops or you'd understand
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Exactly. Thanks.
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I've dealt with them more than I would have liked and have been part of communities that have more stories than they would like about situations that are abhorrent.
But cameras....big brother may not have been the best answer. Not sure I'd this was in keeping with or in dissonance with your original posts. Was originally just stating the fact of today and the talk of cameras.
NO. Not everyone. I know surgeons that wouldn't put up with this for a second. Geez, maybe too many of them are retiring or dying off.
It shouldn't happen. Why do it? Displace on your own time; don't take it out on patients, whether you think they can hear you or not.
If this is happening as much as you say, some people in medicine need to step up as leaders and set a better tone.
Just don't do it, and then there is nothing in that regard at least to worry about. You're more likely to be better focused on the patient and what her/his most important needs are at the moment if you think of him/her as an actual person worthy of respect and great care--someone's mother, father, brother, sister, husband, wife, child....
Take the smack on to the basketball court, tennis court, racquetball court, the gym, something like that. That is the healthy and decent thing to do. Just treat people right on all levels of care. That's not something that is too hard to do.
Hell yea. I want to know if you are talking smack like THAT woman did about my loved one while she is under sedation and getting a procedure. IT"s also wrong to operate/fx/present yourself as a professional--under false pretenses. If act like that, you are not acting professionally; but you have led the patient and family to believe that you will be acting professionally.
So, if you are gonna act like a total j.o. to a patient in the OR or during a procedure, how about manning up ahead of time and ACTUALLY TELLING THEM that this is how you function your "best" during a procedure--by making the patient the equivalent of a piece of crap. Tell them to their faces before the damn procedure. Talk about weak? Talk about passive-aggressive? Talk about being utterly cowardly and lowlife? Dr. Ingram and her colleague were the most cowardly of all! It's BS to justify this behavior.
It's already tough getting certain patients to see physicians and specialists and surgeons for certain things that they may need. What the hell? Trust is the cornerstone of medicine and healthcare. So at least be upfront and tell people you will give them the best possible care and treatment in the OR; but, 'please understand, however, that they boy's club requires that you act like total jerks while in there in order to accomplish this goal.'
What a crock of crap.
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You clearly have not been around too many surgeons. Rotate on general surgery in an academic hospital third year, then you'll know. Transcribed and on tape, she sounded just like a surgeon, not an anesthesiologist. The only thing left for her to call him was the homophobic slur for gay people that begins with an 'f'. Maybe she said it back in the break room.
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This thread is so awesome. I love it. I hope it continues to prosper.
I have been around many surgeons and have worked in many academic medical centers for over 20 years. For the most part, that is not tolerated where I have worked, and rightfully so. People going along w/ it is part of the problem, and why this case getting attention is important.
I have had dogs that have had surgeries. Do you think vets operating are talking about the pets they are operating on like they are pieces of crap? Of course not. Maybe a rare Cujo or so.
There is no excuse for this. No institution anywhere should tolerate this--anymore than they should tolerate HIPAA violations or the like.
Me too.
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I can't believe you're comparing a surgeon who has done a residency and/or fellowship, who works excruciating hours to a veterinarian who works 9 to 5. They're nothing alike.
Pretty sure a veterinarian isn't going to tell a dog or a parrot to "man up."
Maybe the surgeons you know say it when you're not around.
Hahahahahahah. That's NO Excuse; only rationalization. JUST Keep your crap to yourself. If a vet can show this much discretion, so can those working longer hours. There were times when there weren't limitations on hours--and even then, it was frowned upon to treat people poorly out of frustration. This is a bad mentality, which in my opinion, is growing as people dehumanize patients and families more and more. In fact, this is so in general, as people dehumanize others people more and more. It is no more justified in closed OR 1 or OR 2 anymore than it would be anywhere else.
Regardless of devices, remember, "The walls have ears. . ." and be careful what you say about someone else, "...for a bird of the heavens will carry the sound and the winged creature will make the matter known."
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Interesting you mentioned vets. Because I just found out that our previous one lied to my family about our late dog in order to string us along for more surgeries (ie more cash). Sorry, I'll take the **** talking and proper care over the lovey dovey-ness and actual malpractice. But, this is the new America: YMMV
*** this reply is in no way, shape, or form defending the docs actions here in this case.
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They vet doesn't need discretion. They work 9 to 5 and you pay in cash, with paltry sum for malpractice. They couldn't be happier. Your surgeon doesn't get this luxury.
Also I think it is ironic that a nurse would say not to talk badly about a patient when nurses are doing this all the time.
I've told my dog to man up after being neutered; but then I looked at his deflated scrotum and gave him a hug. Is that too lovey-dovey? LOL
To Charm:
Throwing the parrot in there made the reply especially entertaining. Thanks.
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LOLOLOLOL. Yes, every nurse does it ALL OF THE TIME. And always is a word we should ALWAYS use with people.
I don't let people talk smack about patients, even if they are raving alcoholics trying to punch the hell out of me as we move him/her/them from ED gurney to ICU bed. Hell, I don't let nurses talk crap on the new interns or residents or fellows or attendings--even when they may deserve a good smack. If they want to discuss outside of work quietly, w/o names, at the bar, OK.
Have you been working in HC for > 20 years? I have. Be careful with the raving "always."
And indeed if it is happening more, it only supports the generally negative mentality that needs to be addressed. See, getting all A's isn't everything--by far. IF you don't give a damn, even w/ PITA patients and families, go work on computers for a living.
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My catholic school teachers would be proud.
Though really it's just a reference to the giant Ox statue that sits next to the library at my med school. (which of course is a reference to St. Luke)
I wasn't feeling all that creative when creating a name.
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What I've learned from this thread is that it's possibe to type huge texts of nonsense that barely make sense, supported by random copy pastes from blogs, without a basic understanding of what you're attempting to discuss and a curious inability to understand what other people say
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The overwhelming majority of nurses that I've worked with complain just like any other member of the healthcare team about aspects of their job, including their patients. Good for you for going on a crusade and all, but I wouldn't say that's the norm.
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Ji lin, you sound insane.
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"I have had dogs that have had surgeries. Do you think vets operating are talking about the pets they are operating on like they are pieces of crap? Of course not...If a vet can show this much discretion, so can those working longer hours."
At the very least, I hope we all will leave this thread with a greater appreciation of the discretion displayed by vets.
At the very least, I hope we all will leave this thread with a greater appreciation of the discretion displayed by vets.
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Seriously, dozens of people have posted sources and links for you on this site, including several attendings regarding the standards that govern physicians and how they differ from the standards of nurses. Maybe we could get @Law2Doc in here so you can hear it straight from a lawyer and just maybe it'll stick instead of going in one ear and out the other.
You also keep saying "the precedent is set". Even if it is set, it's in one state, it's not a federal ruling and would potentially hold no bearing in other states, especially when the definition of 'causing harm' to the patient is so murky in regards to psychological harm.
Yours or others as anonymous entities on the Internet have absolutely no statistically significant validation of your statement as "the overwhelming majority of nurses...." Magnify what your n=1 experience is and blow it up to try and make your point. Good use of overstating to "try" to be effective and to get around the real issue.
There is also a big difference between 'complaining about aspects of a job,' and treating patients inhumanely--whether they are under sedation or not. That speaks for itself; hence the verdict in this case.
If you or anyone else wants to talk/treat patients disrespectfully while awake (at least that is more honest and gutsy) or while they are in an unconscious state by whatever means, chemical or otherwise, you will have to make that determination. You still won't be right and can't rationalize it. What's more, you can and should be held accountable for it. Keep supporting this behavior of allowing others in medicine and healthcare to do the same; but in time, it will catch up with you and them.
You are missing the reality that if people policed their own when they speak and act so egregiously--if they set the tone as good mentors and caring examples, and if the board stepped in and did the same--such lawsuits would be nonexistent. And no, it can't be about merely getting caught. What I hear over and over again is that, "Oh well, she got hit hard b/c she got caught on a recording." So, feeling like it's a sting operation, some of you--God, I pray not most of you--feel badly for the perpetrator of the abuse??? Why, is it b/c she is a colleague, and "well, this kind of thing just happens all the time?" Why should those in the "inner sanctum" that demonstrate such extremely poor behavior get a pass? Why are you not seeking to be an ambassador of respectful, caring behavior rather than rationalizing poor behavior????
Apparently there needs to be more transparency about this kind of thing, but professionals are primarily thinking about their own butts more than that of individual patients and the general public. Why is this OK to the point that it only requires a slap on the wrists?
Yea. It's all so funny. Nothing at all tragic about this commentary on attitudes in healthcare.
And why should my sick child, mother, whoever have to be the brunt of a physician's frustration over going into a very long, arduous, and expensive career path in which she/he feels stuck? Why is it right to make the patients and families the scapegoats of these peoples' frustrations? People on SDN talk about accountability, but it's sad that some really don't want to own or even help others own what means.
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It may be weaker as in comparison to that of SCOTUS, but it is indeed still important. The policy argument still gives it strength.
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I think we've found the captain of the nurses against the big bad wealthy physician group. After signing off sdn, an unsaid nurse will leave stat orders undone, walk past blinking call lights for a smoke break, while making a medical student cry.
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Oh sorry, I will respect your n=1 experience but ignore my own, my bad.
Still missing the point...and at this point, I can only perceive it is purposefully so.
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Maybe, but I still doubt it would hold much weight unless the patient has a recording and has solid evidence that the 'emotional abuse' from a single incident is enough to cause physical manifestations which lead to actual harm. Even then, you'd first had to prove that the physician breached their duty in terms of medical treatment, which one would be very, very hard-pressed to do in any field other than Psych. Could they make it a case a civil case for defamation? Sure, and given the situation he probably could have won. Calling it malpractice would be using the wrong channel to make the doctor pay though (which pretty much everyone you've been arguing with agrees that she should have been punished, just through the proper channels).
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Maybe, but you went off several tangents that had absolutely nothing to do with what I originally said, which was simply a response to your "20 years of experience" and your push to make everyone be nice.
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She already called it a day, you are late to the thread bro
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But did she drop the mic? Even if so, I think @DOFOSHO is still winning the mic dropping battle 3-1.
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She'll be back.
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If only we could find a sympathetic reporter to write an article saying that doctors make fun of their dying patients and that's okay: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2015/04/13/18ecc874-d309-11e4-ab77-9646eea6a4c7_story.html
Now you know I'm not biased when I say this based off our history, but well done.
LOL dropping the mic. . .
FWIW, I don't think you are one of those disrespectful types of docs. You are probably fun to work with but know where the boundary lines are. And that's fine. I know what you are trying to say; but I think we should strive to be on our best behavior, and if we are going to make fun, I am good with being the target over the patients. I have my shield and cape, and I can take it.
Yea. I have my cape and will continue flying around, going back and forth to save the world from mean, careless healthcare people. LOL
Glad I was able to entertain. I never hold grudges and am not a jealous or vengeful kind of person. I am just a strong patient advocate--always have been, and there are a ton of reasons, even beyond nursing, as to why this is so.
And any rate, there goes the mic again.
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