an MD from Poznan?

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602gts

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Yo, I got a friend intreseted in going to Poznan for an MD degree. On the website they say that American and Canadian students can come back to Practice in North America. But in the real world.. no BS.. is it that easy? Has anyone graduated and now practicing in NA? Any information would be awesome, thanks!

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i'd like info on that as well. I am seriosly considering Poznan and Charles 6 year program. Can americans at the 6 year program come to the US afterwards and secure a residency?
 
basilisk312 said:
i'd like info on that as well. I am seriosly considering Poznan and Charles 6 year program. Can americans at the 6 year program come to the US afterwards and secure a residency?

My DMD tells me that it is not the school you graduate from, but how well you do on your USMLEs. If you do extremely well then you can pretty much get any residency you wish. Of course if you do well and have graduated from Harvard insteat of Poznan then that is even better :laugh: :eek: :idea:
 
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Ok, here's a couple things:

First, check out the www.valuemd.com website. There's a lot of stuff there on Poznan, and the other Eastern European schools.

Next, check out our student government web page at Poznan http://www.asg.amp.edu.pl

The bottom line really is your USMLE scores. These are real schools that gradute real docs.

Sure, it's better to bust your rear in the 4 pre-med courses at college and go to a US med school. But, if that didn't work, go to Poznan, bust your rear at med school, ace your USMLEs, and get a residency back in the US.

It's really that simple.
 
Practicing back in the US is not a problem. Look through the phone book under "Physicians and Surgeons" in your particular little middle American town in Ohio and see how many of the last names you can't pronounce. Those are, by and large, all foreign medical grads from places like Poznan. So, without my making any snide comments about naive questions...no BS, yes, it's possible to practice in the US after going to school in Poznan.

Essentially, the first two years over there are fine. It doesn't matter where you study, the US, Eastern Europe, Zimbabwe. You have to learn the basics. The books you use at Poznan are the same as those in the US. In some small ways, it's even "better" that in the US in the sense that some classes require you to learn more detail. Whereas in the US you are taught directly to the boards, in Poznan you are taught the basics of medicine. In no class will you be taught too little. So, the question is, is learning too much, bad?

Where the problems start is first in the little things, and then, in the last two years, in the support.

In yrs 1-2 you will run into problems such as tests that move. Tests are scheduled, but people freak out, and have the professors move them. Or, you will, for some odd reason, not get a second semester schedule until you are three quarters of the way through semester one.

These things are a huge pain. Scheduling difficulties. ******ed classmates. People who really really should not be in med school in the first place getting in due to the "no MCAT" requirement, and a host of other probelms in the "admissions" process.

But survivable.

Yet, the whole enterprise is meaningless if you don't get a residency. That is, a job.

In years 3-4 the list of failures on the part of Poznan is impressive. They are all surmountable, as people do get residencies, but they really make your life harder than it should be.

The communication amongst departments is terrible. Essentially, each department (Ob/Gyn, Surgery, Pediatrics, etc...) is not aware of what you learn in other departments, and does not care to find out. So, month after month, all year long, you start with the basics. It is not assumed mid-way through 3rd year that you've been doing history/physicals for 6 months. They act as if you just walked into a hospital for the first time. You can extrapolate from this further.

There are no meaningful evaluations of your performance on the ward. You take a final, and that's that. You could have killed 37 patients, been a total penis, and as long as you ace the final, you're golden.

No meaningful evaluations mean that the Dean's Office has no meaningful way of creating a Dean's Letter for you. This is REQUIRED for your residency application, and is a summary of your performance on the ward in the third year. So, they simply don't do it.

The scheduling pays little attention to the main goals...USMLE study, and following the proper timeline in the Senior year for filing residency applications. Essentially, the administration does not know what is involved in this, and is finding out only very very slowly.

The administration underestimates how important it is for us to do rotations in the US. They view it as a "nice little vacation" we take for a few months. The work that is done in US hospitals with 100h work weeks and god knows what else, would kill the average Polish doctor in three days. As soon as he found out that he can't leave the hospital for the day at 1pm...he'd have an MI.

They also don't fully realize that we go to the US to WORK, to be part of the team. No to sit around and observe...as Polish med students do. They simply don't realize that. And thus, they are reluctant to help us get these months in the US.

As it is, we must scramble very hard to obtain the proper course credits in the second semester of the 4th year. We have to make arrangments with the professors to take course early, and other such things, to get the ECFMG certificate on time, so to be able to start work on July first.

None of this is a real problem is you take a year off to devote to paperwork, board-exam-taking, and what not, after you graduate. It's just a pain.

But to figure out how to get a residency all on your own, in the senior year is not easy. You are spending the summer between yrs 3 and 4 studying for Step 2 CK, trying to put together the regular residency application, on top of which you have to essentially write, or at least heavily edit, your letters of rec, and your Dean's Letter. Not to mention, trying to figure out the whole ERAS/FREIDA/ECFMG systems to register for The Match, to submit your application, and do it all in time to get it validated by the ECFMG so you can actually practice in the US.

Of course, you are spending your first semester in the US, doing rotations in US hospitals. So, now you've got to come to work, and actually work, from 6am to midnight, whereas in Poznan 9am was too early, and if you got out at 2pm, you complained that it was waaay late...and in any case, you didn't really have to do anything on the ward if you didn't want to, just simply show up.

These US rotations are very important both for getting real letters of rec from US docs, but also to teach you how to function in a US medical environment. A skill you will need to pass the Step 2 CS (CSA)...for which you are not at all prepared in Poznan....which you have to take in the middle of your US rotations...as well as go on residency interviews.

Then in March, you try to match. If you match, you try to convince the school to issue your diploma early so you can submit it to the ECFMG. If you don't, and you don't get your Certificate, you cannot start July 1st at the residency you've matched at.

Look at it this way. Years one and two are a hassle, but it all comes down to studying. No problem. Study. Pass Step 1. No one said med school is easy.

Year three is essentially a vacation. You can do nothing if you choose. Travel, party, whatever.

Or, study your a*s off in a very relaxed environment, and ace your Step 2, with none of the third year hell and stress the US kids go through.

Then, in year four, you have a summer, and a semester and a half of hell. After March, if you match, and have all your ducks in a row, you are on a real European vacation. Tickets to Vienna can be had for $100.

This is a do-it-yourself med school. But it is a very real med school. Much of the clinical faculty is fantastic. Wonderful doctors. All speak english. You just have to seek them out, and attach yourself to them. The school won't do it for you. If you do it right, the school can make you into a real, well-educated, M.D. But only ONLY if you take the initiative.

They will make things like getting a copy of your transcript a week-long beurocratic hell. But they are learning...slowly, very slowly...but learning.

In large measure, and in the broadest view, all these things are economic. PUMS is a business, and it's product is a well-trained physician who passed his boards, and obtained a residency in the US.

This is slowly, slowly dawning on them. 40 years of Communism does not become immediately erased. They are beginning to realize that to make a buck, they will have to pay attention to ALL aspects of medical education. Including facilitating the obtaining of a residency for PUMS grads.

Otherwise, the business will fail...and they don't want that.

People, ask hard questions at your interview! Don't worry, they'll still let you in.

Hope this helped.

Pass this on to your friends. Post it on all the forums. Get it out there! Do with it what you will!!
 
wow thanks man! That was so in depth. It helped alot!!
 
602gts said:
wow thanks man! That was so in depth. It helped alot!!

Well, we do what we can...

:clap:
 
would not going DO in the USA be more advised? Does the Caribean have the same problems that you know of? I got accepted into Poznan but am considering DO or the Caribean. I understand that the Caribean have there 3rd and 4th years in the US. :confused: :confused:
 
worm said:
would not going DO in the USA be more advised? Does the Caribean have the same problems that you know of? I got accepted into Poznan but am considering DO or the Caribean. I understand that the Caribean have there 3rd and 4th years in the US. :confused: :confused:

Well, first of all, I would not put the D.O. degree in the same boat as the Caribbean, Poznan, or any of Eastern Europe, for that matter.

Categorically, D.O.'s are the same as U.S. M.D.'s. In fact, I would have to say that, for some specialities, a D.O. would be better. For example PM&R. In psychiatry, for example, it is neither here nor there. A U.S M.D. is the same as a D.O.

They get identical training as an M.D., but with added training in osteopathic manipulation. It is an M.D. with "something extra."

It was, at one time, "easier" to get into D.O. school. I don't think that is the case anymore, strictly speaking.

I say strictly speaking because while D.O. academic requirements have gone up, and are now pretty much the same as M.D. requirements, D.O. schools are more likely to admit older applicants, or other "non-traditional" applicants...like people coming from other careers. The D.O.s tend to value "life experience" in the applicant more than the M.D.'s who still prefer the 21 year old biochemistry major.

But it is still unclear as to what they want, exactly. I interviewed (interviewed!) at Nova Southeastern 4 years in a row! You'd figure they wouldn't bother after try 2 or 3!

Not all the Caribbean schools have MS3/MS4 in the U.S. Check that before you go. Some have rather special criterea, as in you have to maintain a specific GPA to be allowed to go to the U.S., or you have to pass the USMLE Step 1 by a certain date to be allowed to go. If you don't then you have to rotate on the island. Which, from what I hear, is not very good. But don't quote me. Just do the research.

We have three people in our class in Poznan who came from the Caribbean. They say academically it is similar. What may be a benefit to Poznan, is that you are going to a real med school that produces real M.D.'s for a real country in the EU. So, it may be a bit more "legitimate" to go to med school in Europe, vs. the M.D. "factory" schools in the Caribbean.

But these are all perceptions. Just like there are perceptions about the D.O degree. If you are a D.O. in a D.O. familiar and freindly region of the U.S., there is virtually no problem. But, if, as a D.O., you go somewhere where all the docs are U.S. educated M.D.'s over the age of, say, 50...you're in trouble!

Hope that helps.
 
ya dude... I talked to a DO before, when i was applying to medicine (way back when), to see what kinda oppertunities a DO has as compared to an MD... And he replied as if he was offended. "DO as a second choice? it should be your first choice!" He works in a hospital in New York, and it seems that a DO is the same as an MD. So I wouldn't consider outside MDs the same as DOs. Apparently there are some DOs working here in Vancouver too...
 
I researched the Poznan website and could not find any info on successful residencies like the Carribean has. Do you know of any Poznan graduates getting into competitive residencies, like neurosurgery? Also thank you very much for the well informative posts. I have reserved a seat in Poznan. My reason is that the tuition is a fraction of the cost of any known Medical School, except for Hungary's 6 year MD program. Also do you happen to know of Poznan's competeter Kraow?
 
worm said:
I researched the Poznan website and could not find any info on successful residencies like the Carribean has. Do you know of any Poznan graduates getting into competitive residencies, like neurosurgery? Also thank you very much for the well informative posts. I have reserved a seat in Poznan. My reason is that the tuition is a fraction of the cost of any known Medical School, except for Hungary's 6 year MD program. Also do you happen to know of Poznan's competeter Kraow?

First of all, are you going for the 6-year? That's a European program, with no U.S.-residency track either implied or promised. That'll get you a WHO-approved M.D., that's all. So, I have no idea how many of those people get residencies.

As to the 4-year, competitive? Well, I personally know people who, in the past year, have gotten a categorical surgery spot, neurology, and a competitive FP (yes, there is such a thing as a competitive FP residency).

I'll be totally honest. There's no real official school database of residencies for several reasons. A big reason is that many graduates get residencies several years after graduation, after taking a year or two for the Boards, etc. By that time, they've totally lost touch with the school.

It is literally only in this past year that it has dawned on the school that it might be a good idea to keep up with the ever-expanding pool of M.D.'s it is sending out into the world.

Another, related, part, is that many students, after they graduate, simply disappear, never to be heard from again. Why that it we don't know.

My own personal opinion is (and this applies to just about all Eastern European schools) that the school still is not up to speed with Western business practices. That is, they lack the long-term view.

These schools see U.S. students as $$$. So, they will fill the classes with just about anything that is able to pay. They see the short term $$, but they fail to see the long-term. They forget to see that they are creating M.D.s who will go out into the world, and carry the name of the school with them forever.

This is only just beginning to dawn on them.
 
Yes, I will be in the 4 year program. Thanks for shareing your experience. It lets me know that with hard work and determination I will not be wasteing my time. It is true, unfortunately, about the US stereotype of $$$. I have family all over Poland and every time I visit I find myself spending many hours explaining to them that Americans work hard for their money and we are all not rich.
 
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Hi! Wondering if you possibly know anything about the MD-programme and the university of gdansk?

Greeting
Mike (Sweden)
 
Mike30Sthlm said:
Hi! Wondering if you possibly know anything about the MD-programme and the university of gdansk?

Greeting
Mike (Sweden)

Mike-
I see that you have written this about 2 years ago and I have only seen this today- but I graduated from Gdansk in 1999 just before they implemented the "English Program". I am from Toronto, Canada and I did the 6 year program as a foreign student and most of the profs were nice enough to let me do my clinical exams in English.
The experience was quite a ride- but in the end I am really happy that I did it-- certainly and eye opener and broadened horizons- and the education wasn't bad either!
Will be happy to answer anything if anyone has any questions...

Kre
 
Kre said:
Mike-
I see that you have written this about 2 years ago and I have only seen this today- but I graduated from Gdansk in 1999 just before they implemented the "English Program". I am from Toronto, Canada and I did the 6 year program as a foreign student and most of the profs were nice enough to let me do my clinical exams in English.
The experience was quite a ride- but in the end I am really happy that I did it-- certainly and eye opener and broadened horizons- and the education wasn't bad either!
Will be happy to answer anything if anyone has any questions...

Kre


Kre - on somewhat of a tangent.....do many Americans/Canadians go the 6-year route? That's what I am looking at (have applied to a few schools in Ireland and am researching the Czech Rep, Poland). A few posts back, someone mentioned that the 6-year programs aren't at all USMLE-focused. is that a big issue? My understanding is that a medical education in another country will force me to do most of the studying for the US boards on my own. Do some of the 4-year programs cater a bit more to the US tests?
 
chicagoml said:
A few posts back, someone mentioned that the 6-year programs aren't at all USMLE-focused. is that a big issue? My understanding is that a medical education in another country will force me to do most of the studying for the US boards on my own. Do some of the 4-year programs cater a bit more to the US tests?

Well, the 4-year programs, at least ours in Poznan, do cater to the USMLE. Recently the focus has been directly on actual preparation for the Steps. That is, review materials are used in teaching, the NBME Shelf Exams are used for finals, that sort of thing.

In any case, you use all the same texts that they use in the US. So, even in preparing for the USMLE you just review what you've already learned. The problem is (if you consider this a problem), is that you might have to learn too much or too little of a subject. Thus your review for the USMLE is not re-learning, or learning for the first time...it's filling in a few gaps, or streamlining.

In the 6-year programs they use English translations of whatever it is that the professor of a particular discipline considers important, with no consideration of the USMLE at all. So, if some Immunologist has written a book, and that's what he teaches, that's what you learn. USMLE comes along, you have to go get the standard US-text, and learn the right stuff.
 
602gts said:
Yo, I got a friend intreseted in going to Poznan for an MD degree. On the website they say that American and Canadian students can come back to Practice in North America. But in the real world.. no BS.. is it that easy? Has anyone graduated and now practicing in NA? Any information would be awesome, thanks!

I dunno. Maybe I've been on a psych unit for too long, and don't know what's real anymore!!

But, as far as I can tell, I graduated from Poznan, and am now an M.D., and in a Psychiatric residency, actually getting paid to talk to people who talk to piece of lint. And, others from my class are doing other residencies like IM (the fools) and surgery (nothing heals like cold steel)...

Oh, and no it's not easy. In many ways it's an enormous pain in the a**. But in other ways it's actually easier on you that US med school. And my knowledge base and qualifications are about the same...at least judging from my USMLE scores, and the number of interviews I got... But, no, it's not easy. No one ever said it would be!
 
KWBum said:
Dear KWBum Thanks for all the information about Poznan. I like the sound of a 4 year degree. Do you think I would be considered eligible as a graduate, in American Studies, who is near to completing a year of biology, chemistry and physics university education here in England?
 
GordonRamsay said:
KWBum said:
Dear KWBum Thanks for all the information about Poznan. I like the sound of a 4 year degree. Do you think I would be considered eligible as a graduate, in American Studies, who is near to completing a year of biology, chemistry and physics university education here in England?

Well, I would imagine that they should let you in. Their criterea in Poznan are basically "Can he pay?" But, aside from that, they do provide the tools you need to actually get a real medical education. It helps, however, to be prepared, and to have the proper background.

On the more serious, academic, side, what is need to succeed in U.S.(-style) med school is pretty simple. You would need a full year of college physics (non-calculus is ok), a year of college chemistry, a year of college organic chemistry, a year of college biology, and (ideally, though not absolutely necessary) at least one semester of college biochemistry.

Those are the basic U.S. science requirements for entry into medical school in the U.S. Of course, these courses are taken within the context and setting of a full 4-year undergraduate college curriculum.

I myself took these courses in a post-baccalaureate setting, with my original undergraduate and graduate degree being in English and Philosophy (hence I'm not a psychiatrist).

But, without a solid science background, success in med school is very difficult...
 
Hi,
I have an interview this weekend with Poznan and I just wanted to know if there is anyone out there who can share their interview experience with me. I have no idea what to expect or how to prepare for it. What sort of questions do they ask you? How long is the interview? Should I do a bit of research on some bioethics issues or recent research findings? do we get an opportunity to ask questions as well? When do they notify you of their decision?

Any information will be really appreciated!!

Thanks

SNS
 
I go to Poznan and if I could have done it over again I would have gone to Krakow for med school. The school are more or less that same but Krakow is a much better place to spend four years.
 
KWBum said:
Well, first of all, I would not put the D.O. degree in the same boat as the Caribbean, Poznan, or any of Eastern Europe, for that matter.

Categorically, D.O.'s are the same as U.S. M.D.'s. In fact, I would have to say that, for some specialities, a D.O. would be better. For example PM&R. In psychiatry, for example, it is neither here nor there. A U.S M.D. is the same as a D.O.

They get identical training as an M.D., but with added training in osteopathic manipulation. It is an M.D. with "something extra."

It was, at one time, "easier" to get into D.O. school. I don't think that is the case anymore, strictly speaking.

I say strictly speaking because while D.O. academic requirements have gone up, and are now pretty much the same as M.D. requirements, D.O. schools are more likely to admit older applicants, or other "non-traditional" applicants...like people coming from other careers. The D.O.s tend to value "life experience" in the applicant more than the M.D.'s who still prefer the 21 year old biochemistry major.

But it is still unclear as to what they want, exactly. I interviewed (interviewed!) at Nova Southeastern 4 years in a row! You'd figure they wouldn't bother after try 2 or 3!

Not all the Caribbean schools have MS3/MS4 in the U.S. Check that before you go. Some have rather special criterea, as in you have to maintain a specific GPA to be allowed to go to the U.S., or you have to pass the USMLE Step 1 by a certain date to be allowed to go. If you don't then you have to rotate on the island. Which, from what I hear, is not very good. But don't quote me. Just do the research.

We have three people in our class in Poznan who came from the Caribbean. They say academically it is similar. What may be a benefit to Poznan, is that you are going to a real med school that produces real M.D.'s for a real country in the EU. So, it may be a bit more "legitimate" to go to med school in Europe, vs. the M.D. "factory" schools in the Caribbean.

But these are all perceptions. Just like there are perceptions about the D.O degree. If you are a D.O. in a D.O. familiar and freindly region of the U.S., there is virtually no problem. But, if, as a D.O., you go somewhere where all the docs are U.S. educated M.D.'s over the age of, say, 50...you're in trouble!

Hope that helps.

I have to say that DO's are not treated the same as MD's. No matter the way you cut it, people see MD's as MD's. 8/10 avg citz. do not have a clue what a MD is, much less DO. Honestly some do not know what MD is, until they see Dr. in front of my name they know I am a physician.

I came from Poland (my country) to US with MD, PhD in hand and took all boards in 6 months. My scores were high because I learned on my own. 12-15 hrs a day. Poland did not teach me for USMLE's.
I am not almsot done w/ my residency and was offered a fellowship position. SO poland is fine, but when you are a citz it looks better coming to US, then a US citz going to europe and then coming to US. I shows you didnt have the grades to cut it in the US. People can feed you the line that "its cheaper." Anyone who is smart enough to study med, can find a way to afford US med school if they have the desire.
 
hey guys, I was researching this as well... here is why you shouldn't do it. Only a few English taught EU medical schools are recognized by the California medical board. If you go to Poznan, you likely won't be able to practice medicine in California. Other states may adopt California's stance, further limiting where you can practice. This program lets basically anyone who can pay in, and the CA medical board notices.
 
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