Amniotic tissue products don't contain living cells...

IPSIS: Formerly the Spine Intervention Society
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algosdoc said:
Stem cells injections as they are practiced in the US are the wet dreams of tort attorneys. It will be interesting to see when the explosion of litigation cases will occur and when attorney generals will start fraud proceedings against those promising the moon or as an inducement into human experimentation...e.g. "stem cells have been used for.....x, therefore we offer stem cell therapy for you"
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Forensic experts (Plaintiff & Defense) are standing by...

Specialty Focus: All aspects of disability evaluation and treatment, including causation Analysis and review of iatrogenic harm caused by treatment for chronic pain syndromes. Analysis and review of mistaken attribution of liability related to treatment of chronic pain syndromes. Peer Review.

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The famous ortho Dr Hernigou in France has been deen BMAC stem cell procedures for decades with good long term follow up studies....why doesnt anyone cite his work?
 
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those people who want to propose that BMAC has good EBM needs to be the ones posting such studies and allowing the rest of us to critique them.

frankly, as someone who has no skin in the game, literally, its not worth my time looking for good studies to post on that topic.
 
Ducttape said:
those people who want to propose that BMAC has good EBM needs to be the ones posting such studies and allowing the rest of us to critique them.

frankly, as someone who has no skin in the game, literally, its not worth my time looking for good studies to post on that topic.
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Like most things in life...if you want something done ask the busiest person in the room to do it.
 
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Ducttape said:
those people who want to propose that BMAC has good EBM needs to be the ones posting such studies and allowing the rest of us to critique them.

frankly, as someone who has no skin in the game, literally, its not worth my time looking for good studies to post on that topic.
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Here's one.

Int Orthop. 2014 Sep;38(9):1811-8. doi: 10.1007/s00264-014-2391-1. Epub 2014 Jun 7.
Biologic augmentation of rotator cuff repair with mesenchymal stem cells during arthroscopy improves healing and prevents further tears: a case-controlled study.
Hernigou P1, Flouzat Lachaniette CH, Delambre J, Zilber S, Duffiet P, Chevallier N, Rouard H.

Biologic augmentation of rotator cuff repair with mesenchymal stem cells during arthroscopy improves healing and prevents further tears: a case-con... - PubMed - NCBI
 
drusso said:
The problem is that the people doing the "unbiased" research aren't always "content experts" in the field they're researching. While they may not have financial COI's, they usually have ideological COI's or have jobs that depend upon publishing research for career advancement and salary increases. Usually, they're "health service utilization" experts. So, using poorly adapted tools of applied social science and meta-analysis, these "experts" often don't find results because they are mixing "apples and oranges."

https://www.regenexx.com/meta-analysis-blood-products-achilles-tendinopathy/

"My concern with this study is that policymakers who don’t understand the differences in blood products that I’ve described above won’t look at this new meta-analysis critically. They may not understand why it’s a garbage study. In the meantime, now you understand a little about how a meta-analysis works and also how different PRP treatment preps can impact healing in different ways!"

Big Data: The Danger in Knowing Less and Less about More and More | The Lund Report

"Thus, the real danger of meta-analysis is putting a premature end to a discussion based upon biased interpretation cloaked in quantitative authority. Contrary to the ideal of policymakers carefully weighing all evidence on complex issues before making rules and allocating resources, all too often policymakers have used research politically, selectively drawing on evidence to support already held views."
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Good post.

Why anyone ever makes a conclusion on ANY meta-analysis is beyond me.

His critique of this meta-analysis can be said about ALL of them.
 
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I think anyone injection, or studying stem cells need to show with unequivocal evidence that the cells STAY where they are injected

Because anyone who has ever looked at it has shown the exact opposite - that they end up in the blood stream or spleen right after injection.
 
epidural man said:
I think anyone injection, or studying stem cells need to show with unequivocal evidence that the cells STAY where they are injected

Because anyone who has ever looked at it has shown the exact opposite - that they end up in the blood stream or spleen right after injection.
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really? how does a knee injection end up in the bloodstream(rhetorical question).

More pertinent to those who are experienced in this is cell mortality AFTER harvest and placement
 
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Doctodd said:
really? how does a knee injection end up in the bloodstream(rhetorical question).

More pertinent to those who are experienced in this is cell mortality AFTER harvest and placement
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I don't know...

good question..but it seems to make it there.

Also a good point - they don't seem to live after tansplantation.
 
cant read the whole article.

were the US readers blinded? were the patients blinded to whether they had MSC? while the numbers seem nice, was the study powered enough to reach statistical significance?
 
the chiropractors arent injecting on their own. they need docs to do the actual procedure (i think). this really is a MEDICINE issue, not a chiro issue.
 
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epidural man said:
Centrino is creating a straw man - I think.

I am a huge supporter of AmnioFix (a chorion/amnion product) - mostly because they have very good science behind their EpiFix product and seem to be doing honest science and doing their best to leave pseudo-science behind. (For more on this, see their primer titled "A primer on Amniotic Membrane Regenerative Healing" which I have a digital copy and can send to anyone asking...too big to attach.) They say, all over their printed material, that their product DOES NOT contain live cells. Yet Centrino makes it seem like the product is "not what it seems" and all that crap by creating a straw man argument.

However, if practitioners are CLAIMING that AmnioFix contains live cells, you can't blame the company for that. But you also can't then discredit the product because others are not telling the truth about it either.
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The AmnioFix rep came to my office and gave me 2 doses and a booklet of supporting articles. I used one of the doses on my SI joint. I have seen disciplanary actions by the OBME for using stem cell products on patient but can they ding me for using it on myself? It really helped. It itched like heck for about a week. The second time I used it it hurt bad for a few days but then was great again. The rep said that if I bought 5 doses then he would give me 3 more samples. I don't need to use it on patients but I figured I can use it on me so I ordered them. Another rep came out to get details for my account. The next thing I know accounting is taking 50,000 out of my collections for some kind of wound care product. The second rep had sent that out hoping that I wouldn't notice. MiMedx wouldn't give the money back until they had the wound care product in their hands. I told them to send the second sales rep out to see me (so I could wring his neck) but I haven't seen or heard anything from them for over a year. It may be a good product but I can't trust the company. Given the aggressive nature of the OMBE I won't use anything that doesn't have FDA approval on my patients, and that would be PRP.

The Biomet rep will bring out the PRP kit and centrifuge for $150 each. I have had that on both knees and shoulders and am very happy with the result and there was no post injection pain. Now that I am working in my own pain clinic I will start offering PRP for joints that need fluoro. I have a few patients with SI joint pain and only short term relief with steroids. BC and several others won't pay for RFA of the SI but they will pay for 7 different kinds of fusion. More and more it looks like we are going away from steroid injections due to long term effects of steroids and short term effects of local anesthetics so PRP seems like a great option. So many patients have large deductibles and so if I can do their injection in clinic I can make it about the same price as an SI joint steroid injection if they haven't met their deductible.

Cost saving in medicine may have a doctor's name on it but the approach is that of an attorney who gets to set the rules of the court. The insurance company's MD peer reviewer will say that the evidence does not support what we want to do, but often they do not cite the studies. When they do cite studies you can see that they were cherry picked and taken out of context in order to establish an argument rather than to establish the truth. So much for the Hippocratic oath. I used to respond with a collection of studies that do support what I want to do, but they never answer so I stopped wasting my time.
 
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Is the above an ad for PRP?
 
lonelobo said:
Is the above an ad for PRP?
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seems like he has been here 10 years so he must be fake(violet font)

sorry to hear about that story.....50k out of your own bank account? How did they get access? I use exosomes as my amniotic product....pretty inexpensive. Not on the NASDAQ. About the same results as my own PRP. Next time i will try saline in 1 control knee since both are beat up.
 
Doctodd said:
seems like he has been here 10 years so he must be fake(violet font)

sorry to hear about that story.....50k out of your own bank account? How did they get access? I use exosomes as my amniotic product....pretty inexpensive. Not on the NASDAQ. About the same results as my own PRP. Next time i will try saline in 1 control knee since both are beat up.
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Think the post above yours says it all
 
Doctodd said:
seems like he has been here 10 years so he must be fake(violet font)

sorry to hear about that story.....50k out of your own bank account? How did they get access? I use exosomes as my amniotic product....pretty inexpensive. Not on the NASDAQ. About the same results as my own PRP. Next time i will try saline in 1 control knee since both are beat up.
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My group functions like a co-op so we all share the admin and pay a "core fee" to cover it. In order to order the AmnioFix I had to set up an account and being the only doc here with a MiMedx account, anything that was sent by them went to me. The purchasing department applied the 50k invoice to my account. I told them that in the future I would pay for nothing over $100 unless I signed for it. I just bought the new Cosman generator and purchasing sent me invoices from Boston for over $1000 worth of endoscopy equipment. I pity the fools who don't check their financial statements.

And most def about Sir William, but it is a 3 hour drive to the next pain doc and another 2 hours to see a good one like drusso. My local ortho does my shoulders and knees and only charges me for the PRP kit. I watched the SIS video about doing your own cervical transforaminal but I get disoriented trying to do my own SI joint so I let one of the local radiologists do that and he does it well.

Based on my own experience I would speak positively about PRP and based on the legal implications I wouldn't offer any of the other regenerative type products to patients.
 
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Recall Notification to Clients with Possible Product On-Hand, Effective 9/28/18

https://www.regenexx.com/fda-liveyon-recall-due-to-contamination/

"If this stuff is injected into a knee, the knee will likely develop septic arthritis (loss of cartilage due to the infection eating away at the joint). However, more concerning is that we have seen chiropractic and acupuncture clinics buying this stuff and injecting it IV. If one of these products ends up being given that way, this would lead to sepsis and possible death."

I told you so..."The improper use of amniotic tissue products, umbilical cord blood, and other human tissue products will continue to grow exponentially, destroying hundreds of thousands of lives, unless state and federal governments take action."

https://www.bizjournals.com/portlan...ents-should-beware-of-stem-cell-quackery.html

“There’s a lot of good in this,” he said of the potential of stem cells for treating musculoskeletal problems. But with the proliferation of stem cell clinics offering unproven therapies that might not actually even contain living stem cells, Dragoo said, “it’s just gone haywire.”

Unproven but Profitable: The Boom in US Stem Cell Clinics
 
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Follow the money. Full page ads in newspaper for new stem cell clinics. Come for free seminar on this miraculous new treatment. If only they were harvested with a laser....
 
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pastafan said:
Follow the money. Full page ads in newspaper for new stem cell clinics. Come for free seminar on this miraculous new treatment. If only they were harvested with a laser....
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Nothing new.....a Chiro brought his mom to me for her knee and he’s been doing it ever since with NP’s.

FDA didn’t say why the recall was ordered?
 
Neil Riordan seems to be a legit authority in this space for both allograft products and true stem cell therapy. I just finished his MSC and his Rising Tide book.
Also injecting unmatched cord blood could be playing with fire, as I do not see how it could be considered homologous use
 
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