Becker: Young Physicians Don't Want to Work That Hard

[drusso]

The misconception that young physicians 'don't want to work that hard'

Bridge the communication gap between generations of physicians and administrators to create a flexible medical care environment.

www.beckershospitalreview.com

"For Dr. Bruce, it is important for physicians and administrators to work together to find a happy medium. "We need these physicians as they're coming out and the nurse practitioners and the physician assistants and nurses. Everybody's looking to operate differently within the medical care environment. We need to be flexible and unfortunately that makes things more complicated. It's the reality. We really need to see a better connection between the generations."

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[Pain Applicant1]

I don't think it's a misconception but I can't blame them, I don't want to work that hard either. I'm not young but not yet old - smack dab right in the middle. Not to come across as a show off but it's a pretty damn good place to be.

 

[GoBeers]

young physicians willingness to work correlates with direction of reimbursements

 

[DOctorJay]

see previous salary post where hospitals give a decent base salary and then decrease the reward for working harder. if you're going to essentially salary everyone, expect salary mentality work.

 

[hyperalgesia]

The work allocation changes every year with an increasing burden from all the parasites in the health care industry.

I don't think there would be any shortage of work ethic for purely clinical care but doctors don't want to work when that entails appeasing their administrator overlords, jumping through mind-numbing insurance hoops, complying with misguided population health mandates, making sure the EMR "stakeholders" get their cut, etc etc.

 

[Ferrismonk]

young physicians willingness to work correlates with direction of reimbursements

and amount of administrative/insurance bs.

 

[BobBarker]

Lots of them don’t understand that they only get paid by working either directly or indirectly. The FaceBook group is filled with primary care docs that want to see 14 patients a day, have two MA’s, two receptionists, and an office manager and don’t understand why they are being asked to see more.

 

[sloh]

see previous salary post where hospitals give a decent base salary and then decrease the reward for working harder. if you're going to essentially salary everyone, expect salary mentality work.

They will never love you back!

 

[Baron Samedi]

Is working hard a desirable trait?

 

[clubdeac]

Is working hard a desirable trait?

Is the opposite, laziness, a desirable trait? I’d say definitely no. A gen z’er may disagree

 

[Baron Samedi]

Is the opposite, laziness, a desirable trait? I’d say definitely no. A gen z’er may disagree

If someone only wants to work 16 hours a week with long appointment times and is okay with making less money, who are we to judge them? As long as they provide safe patient care, all the power to them.

When we die, the only people who will remember that we stayed late and worked hard will be our children.

 

[Agast]

What is the age range for “young physician” anyway

 

[Ducttape]

you know, Baby boomers and maybe even Gen Xer believe that millenials are lazy.

the truth of the matter is that they are not. their expectations of work may be different from boomers and Gen Xers.

the truth is that they are probably working hard but getting less financial gain from all the hard work they are doing, since wages have been pretty much stagnant while costs have increased over time - the economy has improved less during their generation than previous ones.

they are subject to relatively low wages (as wages have not risen as much as prior generations), after incurring massive costs from education, and both are decreasing expendable income and their ability to buy houses, get married, have kids. the financial crises in the early 2000s also altered their prospects.

for many of them, now, the end game is not to make oodles money and do FIRE or whatever, but to work at a good pace and enjoy their lives, because they know they are not going to make the mega bucks that their predecessors made.

What is the age range for “young physician” anyway

age 22 up to Agast's age, whatever that may be.

 

[Baron Samedi]

On a generational note, there's some interesting data out there on the effects leaded gasoline had on Boomers'/Gen-Xers' brains and the resultant problems that occured during their youth(70s and 80s) and behaviors that persist to today. I'd encourage folks to check it out -- very fascinating stuff.

 

[Fpg1245]

young physicians willingness to work correlates with direction of reimbursements

This explains probably a part of it. Ben g repeatedly devalued as a profession does not exactly engender feelings of working hard. Not even to make up so called lost income.

I really don’t anticipate putting more than 10 years into this profession.

 

[Agast]

On a generational note, there's some interesting data out there on the effects leaded gasoline had on Boomers'/Gen-Xers' brains and the resultant problems that occured during their youth(70s and 80s) and behaviors that persist to today. I'd encourage folks to check it out -- very fascinating stuff.

Is this like the millennials eating Tide pods thing

 

[Baron Samedi]

Is this like the millennials eating Tide pods thing

Ever since that data came out, I set myself a hard limit of 2 Tide pods per week.

 

[Agast]

Ever since that data came out, I set myself a hard limit of 2 Tide pods per week.

Ugh lucky. Thanks to the Boomers ruining everything I can only eat the Great Value pods

 

[Dr. Ice]

39 billion in student loan relief…

Life isn’t so bad for the youth..

I don’t have a problem with millenial work ethic, I have a problem with hyper PC, hyper emoting constantly about everything. The need for blaming everyone and overly sensitive need for apologies. They need to read about stoicism and live it a little more..

 

[callmeanesthesia]

And apropos to this discussion, CMS has just released their proposed fee schedule for 2024, featuring about a 3% fee increase for facilities, and a 3% pay cut for physicians.

 

[GoBeers]

And apropos to this discussion, CMS has just released their proposed fee schedule for 2024, featuring about a 3% fee increase for facilities, and a 3% pay cut for physicians.

Link?

 

[callmeanesthesia]

Link?

cms 2024 fee schedule - Google Search

 

[anonperson]

The misconception that young physicians 'don't want to work that hard'

Bridge the communication gap between generations of physicians and administrators to create a flexible medical care environment.

www.beckershospitalreview.com

"For Dr. Bruce, it is important for physicians and administrators to work together to find a happy medium. "We need these physicians as they're coming out and the nurse practitioners and the physician assistants and nurses. Everybody's looking to operate differently within the medical care environment. We need to be flexible and unfortunately that makes things more complicated. It's the reality. We really need to see a better connection between the generations."

There will never be a happy medium.

Every hospital administrator I've encountered has proven to be pretty dumb and greedy.

They hold none of the liability and their financial existence depends on squeezing the maximum amount of productivity out of physicians while willfully ignoring the liability that physicians take on.

I am part of the newer generations of physicians, kind of.
First major job was with a health system as apart of their OBGyn group. It involved 5 in house calls a month which were pretty busy. No one complained. After the first two years, admin wanted to renegotiate our contracts which would result in a ~$20k paycut. That is nothing for a health system but a slap in the face to a physician.

They refused to negotiate and several of us left ( all of the younger docs). We all took jobs with lighter workloads. I don't even take call anymore. Quality of life has improved significantly.

They still haven't recovered. Not surprising because it's the same tone deaf administration.

 

[Dr. Ice]

Here’s my question to the young docs who don’t want to “work hard.” How are you planning on paying your over 300k student loan debt? Cause Biden doesn’t give a **** about med student loans. Or do you people just not have loans cause your “horrible boomer” parents paid your way. What’s the plan? Just don’t plan to pay it off? Keep voting for government safety nets?

 

[Tboned]

I privatized my loans and have a real low interest rate. I suckered my hot attorney wife who makes just as much me to pay off my loans.
But I actually work hard too so ahh yeah nvm

 

[Dr. Ice]

I privatized my loans and have a real low interest rate. I suckered my hot attorney wife who makes just as much me to pay off my loans.
But I actually work hard too so ahh yeah nvm

Good for you bro for many reasons…so I’m assuming she had none of her own loans or is she a cougar having years on you and paid off all her loans awhile ago and took on your burden…jk you don’t have to answer tbat..calm down sdn…

 

[Tboned]

Good for you bro for many reasons…so I’m assuming she had none of her own loans or is she a cougar having years on you and paid off all her loans awhile ago and took on your burden…jk you don’t have to answer tbat..calm down sdn…

Lol. She younger than me!!!

 

[sloh]

Here’s my question to the young docs who don’t want to “work hard.” How are you planning on paying your over 300k student loan debt? Cause Biden doesn’t give a **** about med student loans. Or do you people just not have loans cause your “horrible boomer” parents paid your way. What’s the plan? Just don’t plan to pay it off? Keep voting for government safety nets?

Can’t speak for the other millennials. I left my first w2 job and am now a 1099 grossing upper six figures minimum.

Fu money quick.

They will never love you back.

F CMS and their cuts. I refuse to be a victim. I’m taking the reins.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Here’s my question to the young docs who don’t want to “work hard.” How are you planning on paying your over 300k student loan debt? Cause Biden doesn’t give a **** about med student loans. Or do you people just not have loans cause your “horrible boomer” parents paid your way. What’s the plan? Just don’t plan to pay it off? Keep voting for government safety nets?

I think my generation (older millennial here) isn't actually lazy, we just care about work/life balance. When we're at work, most of us are willing to work hard. We just don't want to work the same hours that previous generations do.

I'm very happy working my 4.5 days/week, 6 weeks off, 32 patient-facing hours/week. Out of my hospitals 45-ish FPs, I'm in the top 6-7 for productivity (out of the top 10, 7 are my age or a few years younger). At work I work, I just don't want to work 50+ hours every week with 2 weeks off per year.

 

[PikminOC]

see previous salary post where hospitals give a decent base salary and then decrease the reward for working harder. if you're going to essentially salary everyone, expect salary mentality work.

It's not based on rvu anymore?

 

[PikminOC]

Can’t speak for the other millennials. I left my first w2 job and am now a 1099 grossing upper six figures minimum.

Fu money quick.

They will never love you back.

F CMS and their cuts. I refuse to be a victim. I’m taking the reins.

What field are you in?

 

[PikminOC]

The misconception that young physicians 'don't want to work that hard'

Bridge the communication gap between generations of physicians and administrators to create a flexible medical care environment.

www.beckershospitalreview.com

"For Dr. Bruce, it is important for physicians and administrators to work together to find a happy medium. "We need these physicians as they're coming out and the nurse practitioners and the physician assistants and nurses. Everybody's looking to operate differently within the medical care environment. We need to be flexible and unfortunately that makes things more complicated. It's the reality. We really need to see a better connection between the generations."

If they don't want to carry the load someone else will. Probably midlevels as there will be larger gaps in coverage.

 

[DOctorJay]

It's not based on rvu anymore?

Depends. My $/wrvu decreases the more I produce.

 

[PikminOC]

Depends. My $/wrvu decreases the more I produce.

Yes but you overall make more money

 

[DOctorJay]

Yes but you overall make more money

And my employer takes more of what I generate.

 

[PikminOC]

And my employer takes more of what I generate.

You can always open your own practice

 

[Ferrismonk]

Can’t speak for the other millennials. I left my first w2 job and am now a 1099 grossing upper six figures minimum.

Fu money quick.

They will never love you back.

F CMS and their cuts. I refuse to be a victim. I’m taking the reins.

Assuming you're doing pain (since this is a pain forum), how does 1099 vs W2 make a difference? I assume you're still either getting insurance reimbursements or doing wRVU.

 

[PikminOC]

Assuming you're doing pain (since this is a pain forum), how does 1099 vs W2 make a difference? I assume you're still either getting insurance reimbursements or doing wRVU.

Locums 1099 pays more but then you are also paying the payroll taxes

 

[Disciple]

It's not that difficult. Human nature.

No incentive, no motivation.

 

[Orin]

It's not that difficult. Human nature.

No incentive, no motivation.

But the wrong incentive is a disincentive. We're seeing that crushing the innate driver/incentives individuals had to help people. Now it's a simple decision of money vs time

 

[AmithSundae23]

It's worrying actually considering the real rate limiting step to you becoming a good doctor is hard work and experience simple as that. All this no incentive no work is a scam. Can't believe the people in this thread are defending this

 

[SeniorWrangler]

They don’t make residents live in the hospital any more either.

 

[Laryngospasm]

I worked my azz of when I first got out selling my vacation to othera in the group taking extra call etc every weekend.

Now as I get older I find more and more I just want to spend time with my family. An extra 1-200k per year doesn’t mean sh.t when it’s all said and done. It’s not like you can buy a yacht or retire at 40 because of an extra 200k which after tax is 10k per month. As time goes by and the screws tighten and you see more and more for less and less .. people burn out. It was one thing 20 years ago when you got 1k per epidural and Medicare was paying 5k for a stim implant. You could see 20 a day and kill it. Now you have to see 50 a day to do the same. That’s why docs are working less and less.

And I won’t even start on the mentality of the younger patients who live in moms basement and think you are supposed to work for them for free and balk at a 40 dollar copay. Even though you spent your 20s and 30s going into debt studying and being on call all night while everyone else was partying and going on trips with their friends.

So yeah.. fu.. it.

 

[hyperalgesia]

 

[AmithSundae23]

I worked my azz of when I first got out selling my vacation to othera in the group taking extra call etc every weekend.

Now as I get older I find more and more I just want to spend time with my family. An extra 1-200k per year doesn’t mean sh.t when it’s all said and done. It’s not like you can buy a yacht or retire at 40 because of an extra 200k which after tax is 10k per month. As time goes by and the screws tighten and you see more and more for less and less .. people burn out. It was one thing 20 years ago when you got 1k per epidural and Medicare was paying 5k for a stim implant. You could see 20 a day and kill it. Now you have to see 50 a day to do the same. That’s why docs are working less and less.

And I won’t even start on the mentality of the younger patients who live in moms basement and think you are supposed to work for them for free and balk at a 40 dollar copay. Even though you spent your 20s and 30s going into debt studying and being on call all night while everyone else was partying and going on trips with their friends.

So yeah.. fu.. it.

The mom's basement kids have always existed. But Dr's have always been hardworking. Why are they progressively becoming more and more lazy and unread as time goes on. People are literally learning micro through funking flashcards and cartoons dude SMH.... How are these guys even getting into med school

 

[Dr. Ice]

The major crushing blow to education is going to be AI unless the American system in totality changes how education is approached. It’s gonna start in middle school and extend all the way through professional school. Tech savvy kids will learn ways around writing essays, being able to conversate about a topic without the assistance of their phones. The over reliance on tech for every aspect of life is going to create multiple generations of very low functioning people. My 1.5 year old daughter is already obsessed with cell phones to the point where it has to be out of sight or she will immediately gravitate to it and throw a tantrum if it is taken away. Probably because her mother is constantly on it, but I digress…

 

[Laryngospasm]

The major crushing blow to education is going to be AI unless the American system in totality changes how education is approached. It’s gonna start in middle school and extend all the way through professional school. Tech savvy kids will learn ways around writing essays, being able to conversate about a topic without the assistance of their phones. The over reliance on tech for every aspect of life is going to create multiple generations of very low functioning people. My 1.5 year old daughter is already obsessed with cell phones to the point where it has to be out of sight or she will immediately gravitate to it and throw a tantrum if it is taken away. Probably because her mother is constantly on it, but I digress…

Not to mention the college system is really in existence because it used to be where all the knowledge was located and the only way to hear from experts. It’s slowly dying now. Weird times.

 

[luckybuck]

Assuming you're doing pain (since this is a pain forum), how does 1099 vs W2 make a difference? I assume you're still either getting insurance reimbursements or doing wRVU.

The previous person does not do pain. They are PMR and round at SNFs

 

[bedrock]

Not to mention the college system is really in existence because it used to be where all the knowledge was located and the only way to hear from experts. It’s slowly dying now. Weird times.

Good point. It really speaks to how outdated the university system is in the 21st century.

I know many people who learned more usefull skills through online and self study than they ever did in formal college classes.

Best of all, if your kids study on their own, they might be spared from the communist and biology defying propaganda on campuses these days!

 

[Bostonspine]

Probably has to do with the 75% of physicians that are employed and now act like an employees…