All this talk about jobs has me worried...

[Jason K]

As a practice owner I can tell you that that is a load of crap-o-la.

There is absolutely no benefit to a practice to having 4 different associates working part time in a practice. It screws up continuity of care. It means patients can't conveniently get in to see the doctor they want to see. It means pissed off patients complaining that "everytime I come in here it's a different doctor."

That is no way to build a practice. Any money that an owner might save in benefits is far more than lost in aggitated patients and inconsistent service.

You're projecting your thoughts as an owner of a successful practice, on other owners, many of whom are far more concerned with their bottom line than they are about continuity of care. If your struggling to keep the lights on, you can't be worrying about continuity. Keep telling them how great it is out there, though. All they have to do is plan and they'll avoid the plague. We all come from biased perspectives. Some of us come from ones that are more rooted in what's actually happening in the profession.

A residency in what? The skill set that is required is the ability to generate revenue for an office.

Disease.

And I still say that because for most students the plan is "I'll worry about it when I'm done with boards." That ain't no plan.

Doesn't matter - that's not the reason there is such a gross mismatch between grad numbers and the availability of good positions. Planning will only help a few - we both know it.

LOL busting your ass off at 40 hours a week? Look and see what OMDs do, up to 80 hours a week and they don't bitch about it. Also look at comprehensive OMD positions in SUPERSATURATED cities like your own. 100k-120k. Stop being a whiny bitch seriously and do something with your life. Go get a masters in engineering or something. Go into finance if you want to work in the city. Just stop bitching PLEASE.

I don't know what residency programs you're familiar with, mine was nowhere near 40 hours/wk - thanks.

Once again - I'm not in a SUPERSATURATED city - I'm in a saturated one, just like the majority of US cities.

Pull your head out of your butt and realize that you CAN'T just skip town and get out once you've racked up a couple hundred thousand in debt. How do you suppose someone pay their bills while they're starting over? How do they pay tuition - take out another 100K for another degree? Brilliant. You're trapped - you get one shot at it and if you screw it up, you'll be paying off the mistake for the rest of your career.

And all this wise advice from a first year student who seems to think that all the problems in optometry can be traced back to refractive surgery. Keep livin' the dream, dude, when you move out of your parents' house and your nearest neighber uses a salt-lick, things might be a little clearer to you. i know, you want to go rural. Good luck with that - I hope you're not single.

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[xmattODx]

You're trapped - you get one shot at it and if you screw it up, you'll be paying off the mistake for the rest of your career.

I'm telling you, you're not trapped. I've gone back to school with no extra debt. I will go back again with no extra debt. I'll continue to make my payments. Its hard work but possible.

KHE is telling you that there is still opportunity to be successful in optometry. It is hard work but it is possible.

I appreciate that you're looking out for students who don't know the reality of optometry. You should be commended for bringing these issues to light but I'm concerned that you don't accept that there are solutions and/or work arounds to these problems. Find one. Get out or change your situation before its too late.

 

[Shnurek]

Yea, there are some programs like PhD. programs that actually PAY you to study. My friend is doing one in Stanford right now in Physics. He is getting 40k I believe. Not much worse than that 65k you keep complaining about Jason Although you actually have to put in some work and study for the GRE, not sit on your butt and complain. Although I'd love to have SDN interview you. Show them your opinions. It might even help you in the profession.

 

[Jason K]

Yea, there are some programs like PhD. programs that actually PAY you to study. My friend is doing one in Stanford right now in Physics. He is getting 40k I believe. Not much worse than that 65k you keep complaining about Jason Although you actually have to put in some work and study for the GRE, not sit on your butt and complain. Although I'd love to have SDN interview you. Show them your opinions. It might even help you in the profession.

Let's see - 40K, take out the student loans, now we're at 25K or so. That's great, I'll be right at the poverty line, working on my second doctorate. Smart, dude, really good plan.

Where did you get the 65K figure from? What are you even talking about? Oh, and I've already taken the GRE.

You're lost dude, it all came out when you revealed your masterful understanding of all that is wrong with optometry - that refractive surgery was to blame. That was like a giant whack-a-hammer of cluelessness, slamming itself down on your head. You're just a lost as the rest of the "optometry is a big fluffy cloud and furry stuffed animals" crew, you just don't realize it.

 

[optom123]

lol.

 

[KHE]

You're projecting your thoughts as an owner of a successful practice, on other owners, many of whom are far more concerned with their bottom line than they are about continuity of care. If your struggling to keep the lights on, you can't be worrying about continuity.

Implausible argument. If I'm struggling to keep the lights on I sure as hell am NOT going to have 4 associates working for me.

All they have to do is plan and they'll avoid the plague. We all come from biased perspectives. Some of us come from ones that are more rooted in what's actually happening in the profession.

Trust me Jason, I've been there and done that. I've been where you are. But you can curse the darkness or light a candle. Your choice.

Doesn't matter - that's not the reason there is such a gross mismatch between grad numbers and the availability of good positions. Planning will only help a few - we both know it.

You keep saying that like it's true and Lord knows, you are the master of projecting your opinions as facts.

 

[Jason K]

Implausible argument. If I'm struggling to keep the lights on I sure as hell am NOT going to have 4 associates working for me.

Wrong. I've seen several struggling practices in my area do this. They want to add or replace a good portion of a FT doc schedule and they can easily do it. They do it for low pay, no benefits, and no employee expenses. It's not implausible because it happens. And the grads who take those jobs don't even know enough to know they're being ripped off.

Trust me Jason, I've been there and done that. I've been where you are. But you can curse the darkness or light a candle. Your choice.

And you can keep leading lemmings over the cliff - that's your choice as well.

You keep saying that like it's true and Lord knows, you are the master of projecting your opinions as facts.

I've said optometry is suffering and only getting worse and you've agreed.

I've said most grads will end up in commercial optometry and you've agreed.

I've said there are waaaaaaay too many ODs already and the new schools will only worsen an already serious problem.....and you've agreed.

The only thing you disagree with me on is that people should be wary of a career in optometry. That's what I find hard to believe. It's your particular situation that influences you and what you say to these kids. If there were threads on here about how awesome optometry is and ODWire were filled with glowing, flowery, fluffy tales of sunshine, then I'd be the one with the opinion that doesn't match the trends. The negativity I bring up is an echo of what thousands of other ODs are thinking. So, we're both "masters of projecting our opinions." It's just that some of us have opinions that mirror reality more closely than others.

 

[optom123]

JasonK, I think you should do the SDN interview so that everyone understands what Optometry is about.

I mean, that is your goal right?

 

[Shnurek]

DO IT, yes, DO IT, DO IT, DO IT

 

[KHE]

Wrong. I've seen several struggling practices in my area do this. They want to add or replace a good portion of a FT doc schedule and they can easily do it. They do it for low pay, no benefits, and no employee expenses. It's not implausible because it happens. And the grads who take those jobs don't even know enough to know they're being ripped off.

I'm not buying it. Please name me one, two or three practices that do this. If a practice is truly struggling, they lay people off. They don't keep paying doctors to not see patients.

I've said optometry is suffering and only getting worse and you've agreed.

I've said most grads will end up in commercial optometry and you've agreed.

I've said there are waaaaaaay too many ODs already and the new schools will only worsen an already serious problem.....and you've agreed.

What I'll agree with Jason is that people like yourself won't make it in ANY field because as you've shown over 300 times, you can always come up with some excuse, some problem, or some reason to not take any action to improve your situation.

The only thing you disagree with me on is that people should be wary of a career in optometry. That's what I find hard to believe. It's your particular situation that influences you and what you say to these kids.

It does not. I have BEEN WHERE YOU ARE!!! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS?!?

If there were threads on here about how awesome optometry is and ODWire were filled with glowing, flowery, fluffy tales of sunshine, then I'd be the one with the opinion that doesn't match the trends. The negativity I bring up is an echo of what thousands of other ODs are thinking. So, we're both "masters of projecting our opinions." It's just that some of us have opinions that mirror reality more closely than others.

ODwire is a fine place for optometrists to grump and grouse about the hassles of being an optometrist. It is not a place for successful doctors (other than the paid portion of the site) to share ideas or wisdom. It's dominated by about 15 people.

Two weeks ago I attended a business seminar for private practice owners in Chicago. If you live in Chicago, perhaps next time you can attend. Every single doctor in this group of about 100 was successful and looking to improve even further. And guess what Jason......about half of them were out of school less than 10 years. Just like you. Many of them from saturated areas. One in my discussion group from Fullerton, CA. One from San Jose. Gee I wonder if they're saturated areas? And yet somehow....someway....these young doctors are making it happen. I wonder how? Somehow I don't think whining on SDN is in the recipe.

They do something to improve their situation, something that you inexplicably can't seem to do.

 

[Jason K]

I'm not buying it. Please name me one, two or three practices that do this. If a practice is truly struggling, they lay people off. They don't keep paying doctors to not see patients.

You really think I'm going to name practices on this website? If you haven't seen this happen, it just goes to support my claim that you are out of touch with what goes on in the rest of the US, outside of your safe haven. It does happen. Owners who are cheap and only look at the bottom line do it all the time. I was just at the AAO meeting and heard two docs in front of me discussing how they've started to hire "more part time guys." Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

What I'll agree with Jason is that people like yourself won't make it in ANY field because as you've shown over 300 times, you can always come up with some excuse, some problem, or some reason to not take any action to improve your situation.

Right, and I suppose if it were 1986 and this was the "1980s Video Arcade Owners Forum" and we were a bunch of people in striped knee-high athletic socks discussing the financial prospects of starting up hundreds of new video arcades, I'd be the unreasonable one on here saying "Hey guys, there are these things called home video game units coming out - don't buy an arcade or you'll regret it! You're going to waste your money on the investment when everyone will soon have their own, better systems at home!" You'd be on here saying "Hey guys, don't listen to him, he's just overly negative. Just have a plan and you can have that successful arcade like I do. Go for it!"

Sometimes professions lose their usefulness. It takes some time for the full effects to reach all levels. It hasn't reached you yet, maybe your practice has enough momentum that it won't reach you before you retire, but the newbies being stamped right now sure will be affected. Your telling them otherwise will only delay their realization until it's far too late.

It does not. I have BEEN WHERE YOU ARE!!! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS?!?

Your position does not have any effect on what the vast majority of OD students can do. One or two percent might actually pull of what you say can be done. I'm here for the other 98% that will go down in flames.

A 90 year-old woman hit the powerball last month. Someone else will hit it again in a short time (the powerball, not the old lady). If the old girl got on TV and started telling me how I could win it too, I wouldn't be holding my breath.

ODwire is a fine place for optometrists to grump and grouse about the hassles of being an optometrist. It is not a place for successful doctors (other than the paid portion of the site) to share ideas or wisdom. It's dominated by about 15 people.

I won't argue that ODWire is frequented by a core group of ODs. But you have to admit, the attitudes on there are a lot more negative and more importantly, they're a lot more grounded in reality than the ones on here. Also, interestingly, your posts are a lot more realistic on that forum than they are on this one.

Two weeks ago I attended a business seminar for private practice owners in Chicago. If you live in Chicago, perhaps next time you can attend. Every single doctor in this group of about 100 was successful and looking to improve even further. And guess what Jason......about half of them were out of school less than 10 years. Just like you. Many of them from saturated areas. One in my discussion group from Fullerton, CA. One from San Jose. Gee I wonder if they're saturated areas? And yet somehow....someway....these young doctors are making it happen. I wonder how? Somehow I don't think whining on SDN is in the recipe.

There was recently a lottery winners convention. It was a bunch of people who had all gotten very lucky getting together to high-five each other. Sorry, but I'm not moved by the meeting.

Also, was there some requirement that attendees be "successful?" How do you know this? Did they all get up and say "I'm hugely successful in my practice - just want a bone up a little bit." If they did, does that make it true?

They do something to improve their situation, something that you inexplicably can't seem to do.

How do you know what I'm doing or not doing?

 

[mjl]

Right, and I suppose if it were 1986 and this was the "1980s Video Arcade Owners Forum" and we were a bunch of people in striped knee-high athletic socks discussing the financial prospects of starting up hundreds of new video arcades, I'd be the unreasonable one on here saying "Hey guys, there are these things called home video game units coming out - don't buy an arcade or you'll regret it! You're going to waste your money on the investment when everyone will soon have their own, better systems at home!" You'd be on here saying "Hey guys, don't listen to him, he's just overly negative. Just have a plan and you can have that successful arcade like I do. Go for it!"


A 90 year-old woman hit the powerball last month. Someone else will hit it again in a short time (the powerball, not the old lady). If the old girl got on TV and started telling me how I could win it too, I wouldn't be holding my breath.

Usually your posts just make me sad. While this one still fulfilled that norm, I have to say I really enjoyed the metaphor usage!

 

[listenclose23]

I have worked for several different types of optometrists and through my experience have found there is still good money to be made in this field if you do a few things.
1. work towards your own practice, there are so many hidden gems waiting to be bought out or taken over when another OD is ready to retire.
2. establish your own glaucoma/retinal disease patient base (dont become just a refractionist)
3. have your own optical shop and dig into lenses and frames available(mark up on lenses are unbelievable)
4. learn to fit RGPs, this can be an art and also lead to referrals from within the industry from lesser skilled practitioners

"Big Box" operations will be the death of optometrists, shoot for something more. The last optometrist I ran an office for owns three planes and pays for everything in cash. He is only 42. There is still money out there, just have to work for it.

 

[east]

I agree with some of what Jason K says, but after reading sooo many of his posts, I now just feel sad for him. No Joke it seriously sucks to feel as if you have been screwed and lied to. As one of the so very few "lottery winners in the optometric profession", my heart goes out to Jason. psst...guess what you could do it if you wanted to. Jesus, if you just took the energy expended on typing and focused on a goal.....

Jason you seem well spoken, are you good with people? I think you could be very successful in a thriving practice if you really wanted to. So many ODs I know lack the people skills needed to bring people in the door and have them stay. I don't think you would be counted as one of them.