All this talk about jobs has me worried...

[Shnurek]

What I would tell someone starting out is to take the absolutely maximum repayment term you can possibly get. Whether it's 20 years or 30 years, take the maximum. Don't try to pay it off in 10 years.

The reason for this is that in the early lean years of life, cash flow is king. I'm not suggesting that you necissarily take 20 or 30 years to pay the loan off, but start off with the minimum so that you have the flexibility that you need.

$200,000 over 30 years is a monthly payment of $1300. That should be more than manageble on a salary of $82000 per year.

KHE I agree with almost everything you say on these forums except your financial advice. It is known that doctors of all types are not that good financially but you guys have to realize its about eliminating debt ASAP. Or even better, not incurring it in the first place. If you can't afford an optometry degree, THEN DON'T DO IT. I could have gone into medicine but the 50k tuition at some schools is just ludicrous especially when the debt keeps compounding when you are doing your residency. Or I could have gone to SUNY Downstate - in the armpit of brooklyn - but I'd still have to move out of my parents place and that basically becomes the equivalent of 50k a year or more. Dentistry, forget about it....60k tuition at NYU.

The best DEAL for me financially was optometry at SUNY 18k tuition + 1k books/equipment. Also, I love physics and biology so I felt it was a perfect fit for me. Honestly, its best not to overextend yourself. If you do not have the supply line to support an endeavor such as medicine/dentistry/optometry then don't do it. You will be miserable paying off your huge debt for many many years after you graduate.

Now I realize that most people don't have an optometry school in their backyard. So you need your parents to help you out with rent/tuition. So either if you live with your parents or if they help you out financially its still the same. You have the supply line.

If that's not possible then that's why many people work for a few years first to experience other things in life and save up some money before committing themselves to this profession. One person in my class even bought a house and rents it out so he doesn't have to worry about rent/mortgage fees.

This is the reality of the student loan bubble nowadays. Wait for it to pop.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Jason K]

JasonK, is ******ed.

Every income survey from every source, be it MSN money, the AOA, review of optometry or the government states that the average OD income is ~100k. I've looked into it and have talked to a couple local ODs who agree with the survey.

How can an anon poster like jasonk argue against these claims made by real organizations who conduct real research?

I am willing to bet that JasonK probably makes good money, but hates to see the dentist next door make 3x more than him. You need to realize, most preoptometry students/optometry students aren't as silly as you appear to be.

Oh lord, your level of mounting cluelessness approaching that of another hero on this site who also has yet to even enter optometry school. The income research from the "real organizations " you're referring to all comes from a common source - the AOA. I suppose you'll also tell me the income survey provided by your nearest private OD program also agreed with the AOA data, right? Do you need me to explain to you the importance of source consideration? The BLS, Money Magazine crap, US News, all of that nonsense is fed data by the AOA. I can do a survey like this and make it say whatever I want. If I want ODs to come out with incomes in the hundreds of thousands on average, I can do it. If I want ODs to come out with incomes in the 50s or 60s, I can do it. That you don't realize that is frightening.

Furthermore, this "research" is conducted by self-reported mailed surveys. There's nothing wrong with that modality, but you need to consider that getting income reports this way is like asking a group of men to self-report on how many women they've slept with. It's going to be skewed upward. You need to learn how to read the data and apply it TO YOURSELF. Reading data that applies to ODs in their 40s, 50s, and 60s does not mean that those data apply to you. They don't. If you'd pull your head out of your butt long enough to see that, you might actually realize where the negativity on this site is coming from.

Its ok Jason, for most of us, its not about the money.

This never fails to amuse me. Every time a pre-optometry student makes this statement, an angel gets its wings. You'll be in the real world very soon, little one.

 

[KHE]

KHE I agree with almost everything you say on these forums except your financial advice. It is known that doctors of all types are not that good financially but you guys have to realize its about eliminating debt ASAP. Or even better, not incurring it in the first place. If you can't afford an optometry degree, THEN DON'T DO IT. I could have gone into medicine but the 50k tuition at some schools is just ludicrous especially when the debt keeps compounding when you are doing your residency. Or I could have gone to SUNY Downstate - in the armpit of brooklyn - but I'd still have to move out of my parents place and that basically becomes the equivalent of 50k a year or more. Dentistry, forget about it....60k tuition at NYU.

The best DEAL for me financially was optometry at SUNY 18k tuition + 1k books/equipment. Also, I love physics and biology so I felt it was a perfect fit for me. Honestly, its best not to overextend yourself. If you do not have the supply line to support an endeavor such as medicine/dentistry/optometry then don't do it. You will be miserable paying off your huge debt for many many years after you graduate.

Now I realize that most people don't have an optometry school in their backyard. So you need your parents to help you out with rent/tuition. So either if you live with your parents or if they help you out financially its still the same. You have the supply line.

If that's not possible then that's why many people work for a few years first to experience other things in life and save up some money before committing themselves to this profession. One person in my class even bought a house and rents it out so he doesn't have to worry about rent/mortgage fees.

This is the reality of the student loan bubble nowadays. Wait for it to pop.

I think we can all agree that most students will not have the luxury of living with parents during school or having parents who can front a substantial portion of optometric education. As such, large loans are going to be the norm for most people.

Because of that, I stand strongly by my original advice. I'm not suggesting that someone should actually take a full 20 or 30 years to pay off a student loan. I'm suggesting that you set it up initially to pay that so that you have the flexibility and the cash flow to save up to buy into a practice or start one early without having to worry about having a massive monthly student loan nut to crack.

 

[optom123]

Fair points, and I agree with this general notion, but the average salary for new grads isn't 70k as you put it out to be. Its closer to 100k than it is to 70k.

Why would anyone go through 8 years of schooling + debt to make 70k a year? They wouldn't, because well ODs after 8 years of schooling don't make 70k ON AVERAGE. Yes you got the PPs offering associates 70k, but I'm willing to bet there are certain clauses in salary negotiations which enables the associate to buy into the practice in the future. So even if they start at 70k, the potential of income is much higher.

But this isn't always the case, as there are might be new grads earning 70k without any guarantee of getting a higher income. However, its unfair to assume that the income generated by the worst possible scenario is the norm.

 

[Jason K]

Fair points, and I agree with this general notion, but the average salary for new grads isn't 70k as you put it out to be. Its closer to 100k than it is to 70k.

Wrong. It's much closer to 70K than 100K. Actually, it's much closer to 70K than 80K. I don't know where you're getting your numbers. A private OD program, perhaps? Or are you just pulling them out of a hat because that's what you want it to be?

Why would anyone go through 8 years of schooling + debt to make 70k a year? They wouldn't, because well ODs after 8 years of schooling don't make 70k ON AVERAGE.

I ask myself this question every time I log into this site. They do sign up for 70Kish income, and so will you. You seem to vastly overestimate the value of an OD right now. New grads SHOULD be able to enter respectable jobs making 100K based on the years of schooling and sacrifice required to get an OD, but supply and demand rules. If there's no demand, the cost/price drops. Keep livin' the dream though, you'll be hit with reality soon enough.

Yes you got the PPs offering associates 70k, but I'm willing to bet there are certain clauses in salary negotiations which enables the associate to buy into the practice in the future. So even if they start at 70k, the potential of income is much higher.

Your income is your income. If you have a buy-in clause written into your contract at the time of employment, good for you, but it doesn't make the bills any easier to pay for the years until you're allowed to buy in. You need to learn more about the real world of PP hiring of new grads before you sink yourself into serious disappointment. Most of the other pre-OD students on here already know you're wrong. They do stand to make 70s for the first few years out of school, and possibly beyond. What ever happened to "It's not all about the money......?"

But this isn't always the case, as there are might be new grads earning 70k without any guarantee of getting a higher income. However, its unfair to assume that the income generated by the worst possible scenario is the norm.

This is typical "pie in the sky" pre-OD thinking. "I'll graduate from school and there will be places falling all over themselves to pay me 6 figures to turn dials and write SRxs." You're going to be entering a field with twice the number of practitioners than is needed. As I've said before, if you want 6 figures right out of school, it's there for the taking. It's called America's Best Contacts and Glasses. Otherwise, if you're one of the lucky few who manages to get a "good PP position," you're going to have to settle for 70-80K. If you don't understand that, I'd stay far away from optometry because you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

[janedoe88]

Wrong. It's much closer to 70K than 100K. Actually, it's much closer to 70K than 80K. I don't know where you're getting your numbers. A private OD program, perhaps? Or are you just pulling them out of a hat because that's what you want it to be?




I ask myself this question every time I log into this site. They do sign up for 70Kish income, and so will you. You seem to vastly overestimate the value of an OD right now. New grads SHOULD be able to enter respectable jobs making 100K based on the years of schooling and sacrifice required to get an OD, but supply and demand rules. If there's no demand, the cost/price drops. Keep livin' the dream though, you'll be hit with reality soon enough.



Your income is your income. If you have a buy-in clause written into your contract at the time of employment, good for you, but it doesn't make the bills any easier to pay for the years until you're allowed to buy in. You need to learn more about the real world of PP hiring of new grads before you sink yourself into serious disappointment. Most of the other pre-OD students on here already know you're wrong. They do stand to make 70s for the first few years out of school, and possibly beyond. What ever happened to "It's not all about the money......?"



This is typical "pie in the sky" pre-OD thinking. "I'll graduate from school and there will be places falling all over themselves to pay me 6 figures to turn dials and write SRxs." You're going to be entering a field with twice the number of practitioners than is needed. As I've said before, if you want 6 figures right out of school, it's there for the taking. It's called America's Best Contacts and Glasses. Otherwise, if you're one of the lucky few who manages to get a "good PP position," you're going to have to settle for 70-80K. If you don't understand that, I'd stay far away from optometry because you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

even 70k sounds amazing to me. teachers make like 30-40k a year...idk what other job has the same stability and great atmosphere to work in.

 

[Jason K]

even 70k sounds amazing to me. teachers make like 30-40k a year...idk what other job has the same stability and great atmosphere to work in.

This is a pretty common sentiment among all pre-professional students. An income of 70K sounds great to a lot of people right now, especially if you're in school making no money at all. 70K sounds like a fortune. It goes fast, though, especially when you're paying loans back each month. At 70K, you'll be taking home somewhere in the low to mid 50s. You won't be on the street begging for food, but going to school as long as an OD requires only to come out and make effectively 50K is pretty depressing, especially if you are one of the masses who can't find respectable work and you end up in a box somewhere.

The atmosphere of various optometry modes varies greatly. If you're in a well-run PP, things could be busy, but good. If you're in an America's Best or Sterling Optical, you're going to be running around like a headless chicken. It will be anything but a good atmosphere. It depends on where you end up. That's the problem. Most grads today end up in garbage, crap optometry practice, not the nice, well-run PP they were planning on.

 

[janedoe88]

This is a pretty common sentiment among all pre-professional students. An income of 70K sounds great to a lot of people right now, especially if you're in school making no money at all. 70K sounds like a fortune. It goes fast, though, especially when you're paying loans back each month. At 70K, you'll be taking home somewhere in the low to mid 50s. You won't be on the street begging for food, but going to school as long as an OD requires only to come out and make effectively 50K is pretty depressing, especially if you are one of the masses who can't find respectable work and you end up in a box somewhere.

The atmosphere of various optometry modes varies greatly. If you're in a well-run PP, things could be busy, but good. If you're in an America's Best or Sterling Optical, you're going to be running around like a headless chicken. It will be anything but a good atmosphere. It depends on where you end up. That's the problem. Most grads today end up in garbage, crap optometry practice, not the nice, well-run PP they were planning on.

I'd still rather make 50k than be unemployed standing out on the street occupying wallstreet cause I have no job.

 

[Jason K]

I'd still rather make 50k than be unemployed standing out on the street occupying wallstreet cause I have no job.

If you want to do 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of OD school, possibly a year or two of residency/fellowship training, all for the cost of 200K to 400K in educational loans(OD alone or OD + BS), only to come out and effectively make what a bus driver makes, then you're certainly free to do it. That's why the student loan bubble is where it is - because millions of clueless students (myself included) did not come to fully understand what the payoff and/or professional climate was like in their field of study before signing up for massive debt.

 

[optom123]

I'd still rather make 50k than be unemployed standing out on the street occupying wallstreet cause I have no job.

lol, good point. That occupy stuff has gotten out of control!

 

[janedoe88]

If you want to do 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of OD school, possibly a year or two of residency/fellowship training, all for the cost of 200K to 400K in educational loans(OD alone or OD + BS), only to come out and effectively make what a bus driver makes, then you're certainly free to do it. That's why the student loan bubble is where it is - because millions of clueless students (myself included) did not come to fully understand what the payoff and/or professional climate was like in their field of study before signing up for massive debt.

Well I already have 4 years done with no debt...4 more years doesn't seem so bad. And I rather be helping people see than driving a bus

 

[Jason K]

Well I already have 4 years done with no debt...4 more years doesn't seem so bad. And I rather be helping people see than driving a bus

It doesn't seem so bad until you get out and realize you're an indentured servant for the next 20 years or so while you repay your loans. Unless you go full military or you have mom & dad paying your tuition bills, you're going to leave school with plenty of debt.

Also, how are you helping people while the bus driver is not? He moves people from point A to point B. What you'll be doing, essentially selling glasses and CLs most likely in a commercial setting, is not any more noble or helpful than public transportation, and you'll have the income to prove it.

 

[janedoe88]

It doesn't seem so bad until you get out and realize you're an indentured servant for the next 20 years or so while you repay your loans. Unless you go full military or you have mom & dad paying your tuition bills, you're going to leave school with plenty of debt.

Also, how are you helping people while the bus driver is not? He moves people from point A to point B. What you'll be doing, essentially selling glasses and CLs most likely in a commercial setting, is not any more noble or helpful than public transportation, and you'll have the income to prove it.

Jason, i think you have a passion for bus-driving, you should just quit your day job and go drive a school bus

 

[optom123]

Jason, i think you have a passion for bus-driving, you should just quit your day job and go drive a school bus

 

[Jason K]

Jason, i think you have a passion for bus-driving, you should just quit your day job and go drive a school bus

Don't tempt me. If I could sell my ridiculously over-priced doctorate on eBay and rid myself of the eternal curse that is optometric student loan debt, I would. Perhaps then I'd be free to return to my original passion of wild aardvark taming or my new passion, bus driving.

Maybe in the future we'll be able to upload and download educational information from our brains. In that case, I'd hit the delete button on my optometric knowledge folder and ask for a refund of all my expenses. Then I'd download the bus driving suite and the dental suite. And finally, I'd procure a large bus conversion, outfit it with a high-end dental operatory in the rear half, hire a couple of assistants, and start the world's first mobile dental practice / public bus. Problem solved.

 

[janedoe88]

Don't tempt me. If I could sell my ridiculously over-priced doctorate on eBay and rid myself of the eternal curse that is optometric student loan debt, I would. Perhaps then I'd be free to return to my original passion of wild aardvark taming or my new passion, bus driving.

Maybe in the future we'll be able to upload and download educational information from our brains. In that case, I'd hit the delete button on my optometric knowledge folder and ask for a refund of all my expenses. Then I'd download the bus driving suite and the dental suite. And finally, I'd procure a large bus conversion, outfit it with a high-end dental operatory in the rear half, hire a couple of assistants, and start the world's first mobile dental practice / public bus. Problem solved.

And He lived Happily Ever After. /The End of Thread

 

[optom123]

lol, there he goes typing paragraphs again

 

[Jason K]

lol, there he goes typing paragraphs again

What can I say - I also have a passion for writing in paragraphs.

Would

you

prefer

that

people

type

like

this?



....Or

..........maybe

........................... like

.........................................this??

 

[blaba]

I think I'd prefer paragraphs hehe.

Look guys I asked an optometrist (PCO graduate from 2005) who works at a nearby WalMart (as an 'independent' doctor of optometry), basically what does he think about oversaturation. Here's his response:

"
I wouldn't go strictly on what you hear. Optometry is a great field. You can do very welll for yourself depending on the mode of practice you choose and the area you choose to practice. Northern NJ is very saturated with optometrist so it's hard to start a practice cold turkey, especially given the state of the economy. I would actually discourage starting a practice in northern NJ for those reasons. As an employee you get paid better working for an ophthalmologist rather than an optometrist. It makes more since to work within a corporation like Walmart, Lenscrafters or Pearle Vision because you don't to put out much money to get you started.I started off working for an optometrist at Lenscrafters and I was making about $95,000/year. Obviously now I'm doing much much better income wise than I was working for that Dr. and that was 5 years ago that I left him.
To be honest with you in order to be successful in a practice a person has to be nice to the patients, be a good Dr and respect your patients and then everything will fall in its place. That has been my philosophy and I'm doing pretty well for myself right now.

The only issue that I have is that the politics that exist between optometry and ophthalmology. Had I known more about this before I became an optometrist I would have suck it up and go to medical school. Other than that, I love optometry.

Hope I was able to answer some of your questions."

Yes, I live in Northern NJ lol. Bear in mind he's the only recent graduate I know in my area.

You know, someone should make a color-coded map of the US that shows which regions are most saturated.

 

[Soccerjoe]

I think I'd prefer paragraphs hehe.

Look guys I asked an optometrist (PCO graduate from 2005) who works at a nearby WalMart (as an 'independent' doctor of optometry), basically what does he think about oversaturation. Here's his response:

"
I wouldn't go strictly on what you hear. Optometry is a great field. You can do very welll for yourself depending on the mode of practice you choose and the area you choose to practice. Northern NJ is very saturated with optometrist so it's hard to start a practice cold turkey, especially given the state of the economy. I would actually discourage starting a practice in northern NJ for those reasons. As an employee you get paid better working for an ophthalmologist rather than an optometrist. It makes more since to work within a corporation like Walmart, Lenscrafters or Pearle Vision because you don't to put out much money to get you started.I started off working for an optometrist at Lenscrafters and I was making about $95,000/year. Obviously now I'm doing much much better income wise than I was working for that Dr. and that was 5 years ago that I left him.
To be honest with you in order to be successful in a practice a person has to be nice to the patients, be a good Dr and respect your patients and then everything will fall in its place. That has been my philosophy and I'm doing pretty well for myself right now.

The only issue that I have is that the politics that exist between optometry and ophthalmology. Had I known more about this before I became an optometrist I would have suck it up and go to medical school. Other than that, I love optometry.

Hope I was able to answer some of your questions."

Yes, I live in Northern NJ lol. Bear in mind he's the only recent graduate I know in my area.

You know, someone should make a color-coded map of the US that shows which regions are most saturated.

Ewww... I would hate to work at lenscrafters or walmart...

 

[blaba]

Ewww... I would hate to work at lenscrafters or walmart...

Well, that seems to be the reality.

I'm surprised at his pay though. My hypothesis is that optometry has become so corporate, that the pay is becoming more and more correlated with unemployment rates. NJ isn't suffering as bad as others (esp. those in the midwest and California). Iono that's just a thought.

 

[janedoe88]

Ewww... I would hate to work at lenscrafters or walmart...

I worked at Lenscrafters and it was AWFUL! you could tell the Optometrist hated his life =(

 

[Shnurek]

Hey if I'm getting 100k I'll work in a goddam mine lmao jking

na but seriously i'd rather work in a mine than walmart, I don't care how good their incomes are I heard stories of up to 280k gross (that's like ~140k after all taxes/overhead?)

 

[blaba]

Yeah 95k at Lenscrafters seems kinda higher than normal for a new entrant. It might just reflect the cost of living. NJ's living cost is one of the highest in the country.

 

[Shnurek]

Yeah 95k at Lenscrafters seems kinda higher than normal for a new entrant. It might just reflect the cost of living. NJ's living cost is one of the highest in the country.

I don't think 95k is slightly high. It is a commercial job, they always pay more.

 

[blaba]

Well, I remember one post by Jason K, who said the only job with 100k right up ur nose is to work for America's Best lol.

Well, that optometrist clearly and directly advised me to not open a practice cold, didn't he?

 

[Shnurek]

Not true, a lot of commercial places offer 100k+, Walfart, America's Worst, Lensmashers, Sears, w/e. A lot of it depends on supply and demand. Also, you CAN still open up cold in optometry if you go to an under-served area.

 

[janedoe88]

Not true, a lot of commercial places offer 100k+, Walfart, America's Worst, Lensmashers, Sears, w/e. A lot of it depends on supply and demand. Also, you CAN still open up cold in optometry if you go to an under-served area.

I see what you did there =P

 

[Shnurek]

I see what you did there =P

^^

 

[Jason K]

Well, I remember one post by Jason K, who said the only job with 100k right up ur nose is to work for America's Best lol.

Well, that optometrist clearly and directly advised me to not open a practice cold, didn't he?

America’s Best, Sterling, Cohen’s, the list goes on.....they’ll all start you at 100K. And they’ll finish you there too. When I refer to AB on this thing, it’s a generic term for all the worst filth that optometry has to offer. It’s not even optometry that’s practiced in those places. You guys get too hung up on looking at the number of digits in the income and you don’t understand what’s actually going on there. "Oooooo look, I can make 100K right out of school - what a deal!"

For those of you who think “Oh, I could never be a dentist because of the teeth.....” or “I don’t want to be an MD because of the long training.....” You know what’s worse? Working in America’s Best, Sterling Optical, or anything remotely similar to those hell-holes. A lot of you on here seem to think that they’ll be avoiding undesirable working conditions by going into optometry. That was once true. It is no longer. Commercial optometry is here and it’s only going to get bigger and bigger. You're going to have high volume, high sales pressure, capped income, and best of all, you'll be a corporate slave. Sounds like fun, right?

 

[Jason K]

Yeah 95k at Lenscrafters seems kinda higher than normal for a new entrant. It might just reflect the cost of living. NJ's living cost is one of the highest in the country.

Luxottica brands never start you at around 100K - they make you think it, but it's not true. You start at around 49/hr. Sounds good, right? Why is the pay rate per hour in most states, you ask?

Because they want to be able to cut your hours whenever they feel like it.

Didn't make the numbers set for the week? Boom, there goes the rest of your week - hours cut. Didn't get all the checkmarks on the "secret shopper" visit this week? - hours cut. (Notice, they don't refer to them as "secret patients.") There goes the rest of your week. I've heard of 25 year practicing ODs being "reprimanded" by "regional managers" who have been out of school 2 or 3 years and have little practice experience. They're often people who can't pass part III boards and end up in some managerial position since they can't do anything else. Is that who you want to be taking orders from?? Some guy or girl who couldn't figure out how to hold a 20D on part III?

You guys don't get it. Commercial optometry is crap - all of it. I don't care if it's the worst of the worst (AB) or one of the "lesser evils" such as Lenscrappers. It's all garbage. It's all about selling materials and nothing about eye health. And the reason I'm on here is - it's the future of the profession. Whether you want to realize it or not, that's the truth of the matter. Private practice is going out and commercial/corporate is moving in. Right now, the AOA website is littered with commercial logos. Do you think our mighty AOA is here to protect us? Not a chance - they've already sold out to the corporations who got their dirty hands in the AOA a long time ago. If you don't like the idea of practicing optometry according to commercial rules and standards, you need to find another career.

Ewww... I would hate to work at lenscrafters or walmart...

Precisely why I'm here. The vast majority of you on this forum are heading for careers in commercial optometry, you just don't know it yet. Even KHE admitted a short time ago that I was right in claiming that most of you are unknowingly heading for commercial. If you don't like commercial optometry, you're in for a huge disappointment.

 

[Jason K]

I wouldn't go strictly on what you hear. Optometry is a great field. You can do very welll for yourself depending on the mode of practice you choose and the area you choose to practice. Northern NJ is very saturated with optometrist so it's hard to start a practice cold turkey, especially given the state of the economy. I would actually discourage starting a practice in northern NJ for those reasons. As an employee you get paid better working for an ophthalmologist rather than an optometrist. It makes more since to work within a corporation like Walmart, Lenscrafters or Pearle Vision because you don't to put out much money to get you started.I started off working for an optometrist at Lenscrafters and I was making about $95,000/year. Obviously now I'm doing much much better income wise than I was working for that Dr. and that was 5 years ago that I left him.
To be honest with you in order to be successful in a practice a person has to be nice to the patients, be a good Dr and respect your patients and then everything will fall in its place. That has been my philosophy and I'm doing pretty well for myself right now.

Like I've said before, if someone's up for a career at Walmart or another commercial doc-in-the-box (and this guy sounds like he is) then you'll have no problem finding your way in optometry's future. Some people like commercial optometry - if you're one of them, you might be just fine.

 

[KHE]

Precisely why I'm here. The vast majority of you on this forum are heading for careers in commercial optometry, you just don't know it yet. Even KHE admitted a short time ago that I was right in claiming that most of you are unknowingly heading for commercial. If you don't like commercial optometry, you're in for a huge disappointment.

The reason for that is....again.....that students don't PLAN well when they're in school.

They think to themselves "I'll study hard, do well on boards and someone will give me a great job."

It doesn't work that way. I know dozens of doctors (yes, including recent graduates) who've never worked a day of commercial practice in their entire careers.

You gotta make a plan and go after it. You can't wait for that "good job" to just come to you.

 

[Jason K]

The reason for that is....again.....that students don't PLAN well when they're in school.

They think to themselves "I'll study hard, do well on boards and someone will give me a great job."

It doesn't work that way. I know dozens of doctors (yes, including recent graduates) who've never worked a day of commercial practice in their entire careers.

You gotta make a plan and go after it. You can't wait for that "good job" to just come to you.

And again....the reason for a few of them might be that they don't plan. For the rest, it's just the inevitable. The vast majority of places for new grads to land are in commercial. You've admitted that before. There is a very limited number of "good" positions out there (good in quality of work, almost certainly sacrificing pay). There is simply not enough room for everyone, given the oversupply and the number of students graduating each year. If all 2000 new graduates each year did so with a "plan," a few of them would make it through the gauntlet. The rest, put on a yellow smiley button and go to their office by passing through the big-screen TV section. Or better yet, they sign up to see 70+ patients per day at America's Worst.

You're right, though - you can't wait for a "good" job to come to you, especially when there are almost none to go around relative to the number of applicants.

 

[KHE]

And again....the reason for a few of them might be that they don’t plan. For the rest, it’s just the inevitable. The vast majority of places for new grads to land are in commercial. You've admitted that before.

The reason it's "inevitable" is because most students DO NOT plan.

Or their plan consists of "I'll deal with it once boards are over" or "I'll do well on boards, graduate and someone will give me a good job because I'm a good doctor and I know the inheritence pattern of all the forms of RP and I know all about Coat's disease."

They don't realize that in order to get a "good job in private practice" you have to have some ability to generate revenue and that involves a different skill set than checking A,B, C, D or E on a multiple choice test or knowing the difference between an ERG and an EOG.

You're right, though - you can't wait for a "good" job to come to you, especially when there are almost none to go around relative to the number of applicants.

So says the person who has admitted to taking out massive student loan debt, isolated themselves to a supersaturated market and works in a commercial environment where earning potential is, according to your own words capped out.

How would you even know how many good jobs there are to go around when all you see is the microscopic universe of your own supersaturated market, a market you stay in by your own choice?

No wonder you're miserable. You've done every possible thing WRONG with respect to your career.

 

[blaba]

Well, most people live in a saturated area. They'd have to move to the boondocks to open a successful PP, no?

 

[Jason K]

The reason it's "inevitable" is because most students DO NOT plan.

Wrong! As I already said, for most, the reason is not that they do plan. The proof is in the inarguable FACT that if all students did your vague "plan," there wouldn't be anywhere NEAR enough positions for everyone to land in a good spot. So, as I said, a few will land in good spots, some will land in acceptable spots, and the vast majority will land on a pile of crap. You know, I know it, and every other OD on this forum knows it. The planning might help a few students get the few "coveted" spots, the rest will get what's there for the taking.

You keep talking about this master "plan," but it only has bearing on the situation if there are places to plan for. Most of the students in the track and scheduled to start don't even have a place to plan for other than Walshart or some other equivalent. The spots are just not there to begin with. There's 2000 new ODs coming out here soon every year. Are you telling me you honestly believe that there's enough good work out there to give them all a place to start as long as they "plan?" If there were, we wouldn't see everyone flooding into commercial like moths to a flame.

They don't realize that in order to get a "good job in private practice" you have to have some ability to generate revenue and that involves a different skill set than checking A,B, C, D or E on a multiple choice test or knowing the difference between an ERG and an EOG.

Really? I was told by the private practices I worked for that I had generated more revenue than any other resident had in previous years. "You're the best resident we've ever had - patients love you!" "We really want you in our group." I even convinced one of them to buy an OCT and then, more importantly, how to bill for it and use it effectively. What did that get me as a high-generating, personable, solid clinician? An offer of 80K with an unattainable bonus minimum. When I said, "Hey, let's be reasonable here. You guys want me in your group, but if I can't survive, I'm not going to be much good to you, right? They wouldn't move on the base, so I attacked the bonus structure during negotiations and got the minimum lowered considerably....lowered to a level that I'd still never get to. I was told, "Look, 70K- 80K is the "going rate" these days for new grads" and our bonus structure is high, but "attainable." Ok, but I'm not a new grad - I'm a residency trained OD. I was told with a smile, "That's why you're on the higher end of the pay range."

They ended up hiring a new grad from one of the larger OD factories for a base in the high 60s with a bonus structure of 10% over 685K. Six hundred and eighty five thousands dollars. This was not a replacement position, it was an expansion position. Needless to say, he didn't come close to it and left after the contract was up. They were a great 3 OD group. They did very well, had a very nice office and were good docs. That was, by anyone's measure, a "solid" OD prospect. But when the supply of ODs is outlandishly high, the value of an OD drops and you're only worth as much as the next 100 people after you will take. Since I was there, they've hired a string of new grads, one after another, as each one worked there for a year or two and then moved on because they were not making enough.

I went through the same ordeal with two separate groups. Both gave me the same line - "What do we have to do to get you into our practice?" Well, they had to offer a fair contract, something they were not prepared to do because there was someone right behind me willing to work for scraps.

It's not about planning - it's about entering a profession that doesn't require some masterminded scheme or a PowerBall winner's good fortune to get a decent lot. The fact is, most people entering optometry school now, whether they plan or don't plan, will be settling in for a career in commercial optometry. That's a reality. If they don't want to realize it now because they put their faith in their "plan," that's fine, they'll just delay reality that much longer.

 

[KHE]

Really? I was told by the private practices I worked for that I had generated more revenue than any other resident had in previous years. "You're the best resident we've ever had - patients love you!" "We really want you in our group." I even convinced them to buy an OCT and then, more importantly, how to bill for it and use it effectively.

So why not take all these great skills you have and find another practice that will compensate you more appropriately? Or start your own? Or how about going into a practice and saying "I'll work on straight commission. No risk to you. No guaranteed minimum." Someone with as much skill and personality should be able to have patients flocking to you within a year.

I know....I know.....too much debt....too much risk....family obligations downward trend, optometry is dying, blah blah blah blah blah. Keep kicking the darkness, Jason.

 

[Jason K]

So says the person who has admitted to taking out massive student loan debt, isolated themselves to a supersaturated market and works in a commercial environment where earning potential is, according to your own words capped out.

Massive student loan debt? Mine is no different than just about everyone in OD school today. It's massive, don't get me wrong, but don't try to tell me I did something different than any other OD student.

Also, I'm not in a "supersaturated market," I'm in a saturated one, just like the other 95% of the US except for some cow towns in Wyoming where there are 5 people. There are cities in the US that are far worse than where I'm located.

How would you even know how many good jobs there are to go around when all you see is the microscopic universe of your own supersaturated market, a market you stay in by your own choice?

Because I look at the big picture - a lot more than you do I can assure you of that. I keep a close eye on where grads are going these days because I can. Where are they going? Commercial optometry - that's where. Planning, no planning, it doesn't matter, most of them go commercial and most of them end up relocating. Sounds like a great profession. Work your ass off, spend a few hundred thousand on your degree, and then you can relocate to some undesirable place to work at Lenscrappers or Sam's Club. Awesome. Or, if you're really lucky, you can relocate to some distant corner and make 70K in a private setting. Even more awesome. Yes, there are a few good situations out there, I'll admit that. There are some docs who understand that you get what you pay for when you hire an associate - very true. But not enough, not even CLOSE to enough, to allow for anything more than a very tiny percentage of new grads to get into a place like that. You can't argue with facts, KHE, and the fact is that new grads are not going into commercial because they didn't plan, they're going into commercial because there's no other place to go when the "good" spots are all filled up.

No wonder you're miserable. You've done every possible thing WRONG with respect to your career.

You're absolutely right - all from the start when I chose an OD. Perhaps if I planned better, I would have planned on going into a career with a better outlook for it's inhabitants, one that actually has value and isn't pumping out needless copies of unnecessary professionals. That would have been a good plan.

I suppose doing a residency, busting my ass during that residency, getting several offers from highly respected private groups who would only pay enough to barely scrape by.....that was all poor planning, right? I guess needing to make enough money to pay my bills was just a free choice that I made.

One day, very soon, a lot of the pre-ODs on here who listen to your positivity and planning advice are going to come to the realization that everything you've said, while applicable to a very small group of students because of the small number of opportunities, is not applicable to them. They're going to realize that when they land right where I said they would, in a commercial crap position. That's where the profession is going. We all know it.

 

[Jason K]

I know....I know.....too much debt....too much risk....family obligations downward trend, optometry is dying, blah blah blah blah blah. Keep kicking the darkness, Jason.

You can mock these "minor" problems all you want. It's easy to do so when you're on the other side of the fence. It's like the congressman who says "Oh, keep complaining about all that medical insurance stuff, whine whine whine, my insurance is great, I don't know why everyone is complaining so much. Just plan ahead with a medical spending account and you'll be fine."

The reality is, optometry is dying and there is a downward trend. Why would I want to assume even more debt in something that heading towards ground level? I'd love to have been a PharmD who decided to open a cold-start pharmacy just before the commercial monster devoured their profession. I'm sure that dude was thrilled when his pharmacy tanked after CVS, Walgreens, Eckerd, and 47 other commercial pharmacies opened 24 hour places within 3 feet of his building. We're heading in the same direction. We're not there yet, but we will be sooner than anyone thinks.

Sure, why don't I go start cold so I can take 3-5 years to even see a profit, meanwhile I fall behind on my student loans and accrue a ton of interest - that sounds like a solid plan. Or, maybe I'll buy an established office for 500K and in ten years when the office is worth 300K because the profession is tanking, I'll be thrilled. Those sound like great ideas.

You got into a good practice situation - don't assume because you did it, that everyone else has the same opportunity. They don't. You might want them to and hell, so would I, but they don't. A few will land in spots like the one you have - most won't. The rest will end up in the crap heap.

But keep telling them what they want to hear, they're just going to be that much more pissed off when they come to see it was all a pipe dream.

 

[optom123]

You can mock these "minor" problems all you want. It's easy to do so when you're on the other side of the fence. It's like the congressman who says "Oh, keep complaining about all that medical insurance stuff, whine whine whine, my insurance is great, I don't know why everyone is complaining so much. Just plan ahead with a medical spending account and you'll be fine."

The reality is, optometry is dying and there is a downward trend. Why would I want to assume even more debt in something that heading towards ground level? I'd love to have been a PharmD who decided to open a cold-start pharmacy just before the commercial monster devoured their profession. I'm sure that dude was thrilled when his pharmacy tanked after CVS, Walgreens, Eckerd, and 47 other commercial pharmacies opened 24 hour places within 3 feet of his building. We're heading in the same direction. We're not there yet, but we will be sooner than anyone thinks.

Sure, why don't I go start cold so I can take 3-5 years to even see a profit, meanwhile I fall behind on my student loans and accrue a ton of interest - that sounds like a solid plan. Or, maybe I'll buy an established office for 500K and in ten years when the office is worth 300K because the profession is tanking, I'll be thrilled. Those sound like great ideas.

You got into a good practice situation - don't assume because you did it, that everyone else has the same opportunity. They don't. You might want them to and hell, so would I, but they don't. A few will land in spots like the one you have - most won't. The rest will end up in the crap heap.

But keep telling them what they want to hear, they're just going to be that much more pissed off when they come to see it was all a pipe dream.

How long have you been an Optometrist for ?

 

[Jason K]

How long have you been an Optometrist for ?

I'm in my seventh year of practice.

According to your PMs, you seem to be pretty up on the search function. It's all there for the searching.

 

[optom123]

I'm in my seventh year of practice.

According to your PMs, you seem to be pretty up on the search function. It's all there for the searching.

So when did you realize that Optometry "is declining"?

Also, I think you confused me with another poster since I didn't send you any PMs.

 

[Jason K]

So when did you realize that Optometry "is declining"?

Also, I think you confused me with another poster since I didn't send you any PMs.

My mistake - I had you confused with Optohopeful123.

I smelled it during 3rd year when the 4th years, even those who had been "planning" for some time, were freaking out about not being able to find respectable work. Up to that point, I was in the private practice club, I'd go to every society meeting, I worked in a private office on weekends as a tech, I wanted to network with PP owners in the area, and I did. It didn't help - no one was hiring a FT associate. Part time? Absolutely, a ton of people want PT help. It's great from their end - hire 4 PT docs and get a FT associate without benefits and without having to pay employer expenses. So, I did a residency. That would surely lead to more job opportunities, right? Well, it did. They still paid nothing, though. That's the problem. Your value to a practice depends largely on how hard it is to get someone with your skill set. Unfortunately, the US is bulging at the seams with ODs so your value is low - very low.

I entered optometry school thinking it was the best of all worlds - good pay, solid career outlook, relatively low time investment, balanced schedule, it looked great. It was all smoke and mirrors. It's not what it appears. Regardless of what you hear to the contrary, the reality is that most people who graduate from OD programs don't find respectable, good-paying work these days. They end up with a major compromise in pay, quality of work, location, or very often, all of the above.

Even the positive posters on here have admitted that the vast majority of you will be heading for commercial. KHE says that's because those people didn't "plan." I say, for a few of them, that's true, but for most of those who end up in commercial factories, they're there because there was nowhere else to land.

 

[q1we3]

Dr. Jason K,

Most of us understand and agree with what you are saying. We get it. Trust me I get it. I know what my future is which is most likely commercial optometry. But, most of us here have no choice and have made up are mind. I have been to 4 interviews now and most students are well aware of the fact that they will be working commercial. We don't need you to tell us about how bad optometry is, we already know that . I know you deeply care about us deeply and that is why we all love you. So please stop worrying about us! Be the wiser man and avoid getting into arguments with clueless pre-optom students, it just makes you look bad.

 

[xmattODx]

For the love of God Jason, go and do something else with your life. Trust me, I've been where you are. I was a miserable wretched beast when I was working for Visionworks. Down on the profession and the world. While I still recognize the huge problems with optometry (optometrists being the primary) it is what I chose and I can either make a go of what it is or get out. You too, either make a stand and do something in optometry that makes you happy or get out. It's your choice but if you continue down this path of misery I feel for you bro. Really, I do.

 

[speyeder]

base in the high 60s with a bonus structure of 10% over 685K.

 

[KHE]

I wanted to network with PP owners in the area, and I did. It didn't help - no one was hiring a FT associate. Part time? Absolutely, a ton of people want PT help. It's great from their end - hire 4 PT docs and get a FT associate without benefits and without having to pay employer expenses.

As a practice owner I can tell you that that is a load of crap-o-la.

There is absolutely no benefit to a practice to having 4 different associates working part time in a practice. It screws up continuity of care. It means patients can't conveniently get in to see the doctor they want to see. It means pissed off patients complaining that "everytime I come in here it's a different doctor."

That is no way to build a practice. Any money that an owner might save in benefits is far more than lost in aggitated patients and inconsistent service.

So, I did a residency. That would surely lead to more job opportunities, right? Well, it did. They still paid nothing, though. That's the problem. Your value to a practice depends largely on how hard it is to get someone with your skill set. Unfortunately, the US is bulging at the seams with ODs so your value is low - very low.

A residency in what? The skill set that is required is the ability to generate revenue for an office.

Even the positive posters on here have admitted that the vast majority of you will be heading for commercial. KHE says that's because those people didn't "plan." I say, for a few of them, that's true, but for most of those who end up in commercial factories, they're there because there was nowhere else to land.

And I still say that because for most students the plan is "I'll worry about it when I'm done with boards." That ain't no plan.

 

[Shnurek]

I suppose doing a residency, busting my ass during that residency, getting several offers from highly respected private groups who would only pay enough to barely scrape by.....that was all poor planning, right?

LOL busting your ass off at 40 hours a week? Look and see what OMDs do, up to 80 hours a week and they don't bitch about it. Also look at comprehensive OMD positions in SUPERSATURATED cities like your own. 100k-120k. Stop being a whiny bitch seriously and do something with your life. Go get a masters in engineering or something. Go into finance if you want to work in the city. Just stop bitching PLEASE.

 

[optom123]

LOL busting your ass off at 40 hours a week? Look and see what OMDs do, up to 80 hours a week and they don't bitch about it. Also look at comprehensive OMD positions in SUPERSATURATED cities like your own. 100k-120k. Stop being a whiny bitch seriously and do something with your life. Go get a masters in engineering or something. Go into finance if you want to work in the city. Just stop bitching PLEASE.

Where are you getting your numbers from 100k-120k?

That would probably be like a 2 day work week.