Advanced Practice Nurses in ICUs

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Oh, I didn't say you were all NPs, right path.

I said lots of you (yes YOU) are apologists.

And not only the NP secret agenda.... how about the father of PA (Dr. Stead) and his plan for quackery: He details a plan that would allow midlevels to take a sort of correspondence based course over the internet, while being mentored by a physician. You can check out the details here

http://easteadjr.org/guest.html.

In essence it would allow midlevels to attain an MD degree without having to begin as an MS1. He sets forth various criteria, such as a minimum age of 27, a masters degree, --and perhaps most interestingly-- a required commitment to practice primary care in their home community.

Holy sh hilly ite, a fU truck King CORRESPONDENCE COURSE?!? Could you denigrate my training a little bit more?

All coated in happy campfire singing bulls hit about working in primary care even though this week it is revealed that mid-levels are now encroaching into specialty care!


Here's a thought - go back to undergrad. Get a degree with a high GPA. Write the MCAT. Ace the interview. Get through med school. Get a residency. Do a fellowship.

Then you get my respect.

Until then, you're just a nurse trying to grab responsibility and $$$$ to the detriment of my patients, all the while trying to take a short cut to what the rest of us worked pretty dam n hard to get to.

Apologist.

Is there something wrong with you? I have absolutely no, zip, none, nadda intentions to pursue an advanced practice nursing degree or become a PA a la Steadman or any other of these things that seem to get you all worked up into a hot lather.

I have never even stated an opinion one way or another about the motives, limits, competency, whatever on midlevel practice.

And as a matter of fact, I do plan to go to med school and complete a residency. And even after all of that, I'm still not going to give a flying booger whether or not you "respect" me.

Apologist, ha. Call me what you want, just don't call me late for dinner.

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Why is everybody so impressed by central lines around here? I was doing them solo 5 months into my intern year (as was everybody else in my residency program). Most ICUs dont have any in-house attendings after a certain hour anyways, so in fact most if not all intubations and central line placements are going to be done by a non-attending after 5-6 PM.

Just to throw this out...I work in a "rural" hospital (non teaching...all attending)
75% of our inpts are cared for by hospitalists...Out of 15 of these docs, only three will place a central line, and only two will intubate...Otherwise they "turf" to the ER doc (read: call me (house sup) to ask (convince) the ER doc to do these tasks)...They won't call him...I have to...)

No, not just at 0200...I've actually been through this MANY, MANY times at 1000, when they are making rounds...

Thoughts?
 
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Just to throw this out...I work in a "rural" hospital (non teaching...all attending)
75% of our inpts are cared for by hospitalists...Out of 15 of these docs, only three will place a central line, and only two will intubate...Otherwise they "turf" to the ER doc (read: call me (house sup) to ask (convince) the ER doc to do these tasks)...They won't call him...I have to...)

No, not just at 0200...I've actually been through this MANY, MANY times at 1000, when they are making rounds...

Thoughts?

Here's a thought - all the nurses running around who went to mid-level puppy mills, now doing medical procedures, enabled by a feeble government-meddled health system interested only in saving a buck, constantly pushing, wining, cajoling and lobbying for more and more procedures so that real doctors don't get enough during training now that we have an 80 hour work week.
 
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Just to throw this out...I work in a "rural" hospital (non teaching...all attending)
75% of our inpts are cared for by hospitalists...Out of 15 of these docs, only three will place a central line, and only two will intubate...Otherwise they "turf" to the ER doc (read: call me (house sup) to ask (convince) the ER doc to do these tasks)...They won't call him...I have to...)

No, not just at 0200...I've actually been through this MANY, MANY times at 1000, when they are making rounds...

Thoughts?

it's not just the er docs that they grab. I have had intensivists page me to the icu to do procedures for them that they never have done before. for example last month one of our ICU attendings asked me to check a pts compartment pressures because he didn't know how to use the stryker guage to r/o compartment syndrome....
 
it's not just the er docs that they grab. I have had intensivists page me to the icu to do procedures for them that they never have done before. for example last month one of our ICU attendings asked me to check a pts compartment pressures because he didn't know how to use the stryker guage to r/o compartment syndrome....

BULL S HIT.

You're so full of it... trying to pump up your own value!

You expect me to believe that an intensivist, when he/she can't use a piece of equipment thinks....

EUREKA! (shoves hand up in air) I'll just call the PA in the ER!

Is that a bird? Is it a plane?

NO!

It's SUPERRRRRRRRRRRRR PA to the rescue to save lives!!!!
:laugh:
Red_Cross_Heroes.JPG
 
you don't have to believe me.
it happened. it's a rural facility with 3 clinicians in house; me, the hospitalist/intensivist, and an er doc who was busy at the time.
those who have been around here a while know that I don't make up stories.
if I did I could do much better than this.
 
Just to throw this out...I work in a "rural" hospital (non teaching...all attending)
75% of our inpts are cared for by hospitalists...Out of 15 of these docs, only three will place a central line, and only two will intubate...Otherwise they "turf" to the ER doc (read: call me (house sup) to ask (convince) the ER doc to do these tasks)...They won't call him...I have to...)

No, not just at 0200...I've actually been through this MANY, MANY times at 1000, when they are making rounds...

Thoughts?

Wait a minute here. Are you talking about just a regular inpatient service or an ICU? There's no way in hell you are going to tell me that all of your intensivists punt intubations and lines to the ER staff. Thats absurd.
 
it's not just the er docs that they grab. I have had intensivists page me to the icu to do procedures for them that they never have done before. for example last month one of our ICU attendings asked me to check a pts compartment pressures because he didn't know how to use the stryker guage to r/o compartment syndrome....

Let me guess, he also asked you to do the fasciotomy because you are the resident "orthopedic surgeon" at the hospital too. :rolleyes:

As for using the stryker, big freakin deal, a monkey can be taught to use it. I am curious as to what he was planning on doing if the patient actually did have elevated pressures requiring a surgical intervention, is there an "ortho super PA" at the hospital who fills in for the orthopedic surgeons and takes all their guys to the OR solo?
 
As for using the stryker, big freakin deal, a monkey can be taught to use it. I am curious as to what he was planning on doing if the patient actually did have elevated pressures requiring a surgical intervention, is there an "ortho super PA" at the hospital who fills in for the orthopedic surgeons and takes all their guys to the OR solo?

he would have been transferred to a facility with an orthopedist or our on call surgeon might have come in and done the procedure(depending on the surgeon-some would, some wouldn't). in a truly emergent pt the er doc could do an initial procedure as a bridge to buy some time until definitive management later.....I have been trained to do a fasciotomy and an escharotomy but have never done one and it would have to be a pretty dire situation for me to be the guy doing it...say third world disaster response type of situation....
 
Wait a minute here. Are you talking about just a regular inpatient service or an ICU? There's no way in hell you are going to tell me that all of your intensivists punt intubations and lines to the ER staff. Thats absurd.

intensivists in a rural hospital??

funny stuff...

no, they are hospitalists (most trained in IM, the rest FP)

ahh, (oftentimes very old) FP guys managing critical ICU patients...any thoughts?

they love seasoned (staff RN) input...

just sayin'
 
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Here's a thought - all the nurses running around who went to mid-level puppy mills, now doing medical procedures, enabled by a feeble government-meddled health system interested only in saving a buck, constantly pushing, wining, cajoling and lobbying for more and more procedures so that real doctors don't get enough during training now that we have an 80 hour work week.

so, NP/PA education/training is (now) to blame for IM TRAINED docs punting central line placements and intubations?
medics can tube, quite well, (and are trained to place centrals) with 1/500th the training...

wow...

FWIW, this is a hospitalist group of seasoned docs (only one is right out of residency, and DOES these procedures)

the hospital has operated this way for a while...

I can only hope this is the exception, not the rule...

having worked in the big city, I NEVER would have thought of taking an inpatient EKG (at 0200, from the CP protocol, written by the hospitalist) to the ER doc to read...simply never happened...

before I got there, the FLOOR nurses were "reading" these, and either called her "interpretation" to the FP doc, or stuffing them in the chart, and waiting for the AM doc to come in...Shame on EVERYBODY for this process...

THAT was scary...nurses have no business "reading" EKGs...

anyway...
 
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Everyone just needs to relax. If we can't discuss this topic without attacking each other the thread will be closed.

everyone?


c'mon...

EMEDPA is quite credible, and NOT reactionary...

I just call it as I've seen it. I spent the last two two years scratching my head (I went from 18 years in big city medicine and trauma centers, read: physician run teams (ideal, the way it should be,) nary a midlevel, except for fast track;
to rural medicine, where nary a hospitalist did procedures, and the ER doc being the go to guy for ALL inpt issues (after 9p) AND his full ER to boot...)

The hospitalists were untouchable after 2100...The ER guy was essentially managing all the inpatients during the night shift...

night and day brother...FWIW, I prefer the big city model...

bulge: save the hate for the someone else...

I mean, do you really believe the intensivist called the ER PA first??

please...

he never said (nor inferred) that...after reading his post (and knowing him from this board), I knew that he was the last resort...

However, I'll wager they were thankful for his input...
 
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to rural medicine, where nary a hospitalist did procedures, and the ER doc being the go to guy for ALL inpt issues (after 9p) AND his full ER to boot...

That's quite interesting since we classify performing procedures on patients upstairs as an inpatient procedure, which our ED physicians are not allowed to do except in emergencies.
 
That's quite interesting since we classify performing procedures on patients upstairs as an inpatient procedure, which our ED physicians are not allowed to do except in emergencies.

agreed...the system is set up this way...everyone seems to think it's okay...

for an admission (after 2100) the ed doc writes the admission orders and makes the admit decision without calling a hospitalist...

oftentimes upon arrival in the AM, the hospitalist will march down to the ED and debate the admission...

during the night, there is a doc in the box (telephone only) for nursing to call with issues...however, many times he doesn't return calls in a timely manner, so the nurses call me (house sup) for help in getting a hold of said doc...I'm told by admin (hospitalist group owner AND hospital board member, an MD) to go to the ED guy...

If said doc does answer, he knows nothing about the patient, so now nursing has to bring him up to speed (yaaay...great plan :scared:)

I questioned things like this constantly (recently quit), and was told things like "shoot, patients used to bring xray and lab orders on sticky notes from the docs' office, and we just did 'em"

sorry for the derail
 
agreed...the system is set up this way...everyone seems to think it's okay...

for an admission (after 2100) the ed doc writes the admission orders and makes the admit decision without calling a hospitalist...

oftentimes upon arrival in the AM, the hospitalist will march down to the ED and debate the admission...

during the night, there is a doc in the box (telephone only) for nursing to call with issues...however, many times he doesn't return calls in a timely manner, so the nurses call me (house sup) for help in getting a hold of said doc...I'm told by admin (hospitalist group owner AND hospital board member, an MD) to go to the ED guy...

If said doc does answer, he knows nothing about the patient, so now nursing has to bring him up to speed (yaaay...great plan :scared:)

I questioned things like this constantly (recently quit), and was told things like "shoot, patients used to bring xray and lab orders on sticky notes from the docs' office, and we just did 'em"

sorry for the derail

Maybe we worked at the same hospital. :eek: I worked several years in a 7 bed ER. The hospital also had a 7 bed ICU. Between 7-9 pm, the docs would make their evening rounds. After that, it was all about the Er doc until the morning. The general surgeon was always there for his patients, but that was about it.

Remember coming in at 1900 and taking report on a bubba who was intubated post cardiac arrest. He's scheduled for an EMS transfer and decides to go into pulsless V-Tach while I'm packaging. Defib, no change, RT does compressions while I call for the ER doc, give epi and ensure the tube is in the proper place. Defib again, no change, give xylo and another round of epi while CPR resumes. I'm going through the labs to make sure nothing was missed like an elevated K+ while I'm asking where the damn doc. Oh, patient xyz is doing bad in the unit and the doc's doing an intubation. :scared:

Yes. Yes. And yes.

An another yes for good measure.
 
I thought it was already well established that my post was sarcastic and more of a joke aimed at a respiratory therapist?

And these people are writing orders...sigh....
 
>
It's been my experience that NP's have a marginal understanding of mechanical ventilation.

Sounds like you have had bad experiences. We don't have the level of understanding that our intensivists have but they have trained us to be very knowlegeable about many modes of ventilation. I don't have to consult the intensivist prior to making changes in high freq osc or any other vent mode. They are very comfortable with our abilities and sleep most of the night! Our intensivists are in house 24/7.
 
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Sounds like you have had bad experiences. We don't have the level of understanding that our intensivists have but they have trained us to be very knowlegeable about many modes of ventilation. I don't have to consult the intensivist prior to making changes in high freq osc or any other vent mode. They are very comfortable with our abilities and sleep most of the night! Our intensivists are in house 24/7.

I'd have no problem with my RTs running the vent, oscillator or otherwise.

I've never seen an NP capable of running the ventilator though. I suppose you could teach it, but that would be a lot of time invested that would negate, in my opinion, the point of having an NP in the unit to begin with.

Sounds like a pretty low acuity place if your intensivists sleep most of the night.... or you're over-estimating their remoteness (I wonder if they would concur that they "sleep most of the night" :idea:
 
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After working with the same docs 9 yrs, I pretty much know exactly how much sleep they do or don't get. As far as acuity, per NACHRI, we have one of the highest acuities in the nation.
 
After working with the same docs 9 yrs, I pretty much know exactly how much sleep they do or don't get. As far as acuity, per NACHRI, we have one of the highest acuities in the nation.

(shrug). Ok
 
hopkins pa "residency"?

Bleh. Give me a break.

Even the "best" PAs in the units at my hospital (well-known level 1, etc etc), are about pgy 1-1.5 @ best, even after many, many years.

I've seen how pa "residencies" work.

BTW, those ICU docs, not laying an eye on the pt til the next mornin'?

Hang em out to dry.

by "admit there own pts" this is what I mean:
er provider calls ICU doc and says"mr. jones needs to be admitted for dka, etc"
ICU doc says" ok, I will have the pa come admit them"
pt is admitted to the service of dr xyz but the admission H+P and all procedures are done by the pa. the first time the icu doc sees them is next morning at am rounds. the pa follows them throughout their course, consults with the icu doc and other specialists as needed and follows them until they leave the unit.
new pa hires to the ICU go through an orientation process that lasts about 2 yrs with gradual increases in autonomy and scope of practice. they are not running their own pts with a high level of autonomy right off the bat.
some of the pa's attended critical care pa residencies that last 1-2 yrs after pa school before being hired. to see info on the residencies out there for pa's see www.appap.org

this is an overview of the pa critical care residency at hopkins:

Modeled after the surgical MD resident program, you will follow similar schedule call requirements as the surgical and/or Anesthesia residents within the ICU. You will work closely with the existing ICU Physician Assistants and Nurse Practitioners. This relationship facilitates the intense mentoring and collaboration that is required for your growth and development in surgical, medical, and critical thinking skills.

Rotation schedules have been organized to provide the most educational and supportive environment in which to learn.

Intensive Care Unit Rotations may include but not be limited to the following:

* General Surgical ICUs – includes trauma, transplant, vascular, oncology, craniofacial, orthopedic, hepatic, pancreatic, thoracic, endocrine, plastics, and other surgical patients
* Burn ICU
* Pediatric ICU
* Neurosurgical ICU
* Cardiac ICU
* Medical ICU

Residents will also have an elective rotation which could include repeating of an ICU rotation or time on a surgical or specialty service – these will be personalized for each resident. Suggestions include:

* Infectious Disease
* Renal
* Cardiology
* Palliative Care
* Radiology

Didactic opportunities include:

* Core lectures in Intensive Care
* Surgical/Anesthesia Grand Rounds
* Morbidity and Mortality Rounds
* General Topics in Surgery and Anesthesia
* Intern and Resident conferences
* Weekly Residency Lectures
* Simulation Center sessions - brochoscopy, central line placement, simulated patients and scenarios
* Core Policy and Safety Modules
* Leadership Modules
* FCCS/ACLS/PALS courses
 
As a NP in a large childrens hospital. we are fully staffed by NPs in the PICU. They admit patients, perform ALL procedures which includes lumbar punctures, central lines, art lines, intubations, chest tubes, etc. Most of these procedures were done WITHOUT direct physician supervision. In addition, the NPs and MDs manage vents from simple SIMV to APRV and High Freq Oscillatory Vents, and we DO make changes.
If you thinks its malpractice, talk with all of our intensivists and I think you'll find they feel differently.....

That's definitely malpractice.

I wonder how the practice of medicine falls under the scope of independent nurse practitioners?

To make it worse, this is done in kids? Please post your hospital name so I can send my friends from 20/20 over to do a special investigation.
 
I see the NP/PA role in an ICU as a win/win for MD's and NP's. Doing to lines and procedures will get old after the first year for a resident. The NP's and attendings know that the residents need a certain number of procedures, and that should be taken into account when the need for a procedure comes up.

If the NP is working in a surgical ICU, this frees up the resident so they can spend more time in the OR rather than taking care of tasks in the unit or on the floor.

In MICU and CCU, the fellow will be running around all day long doing consults and may not be in the unit as much as they need to be. If the NP can help the fellow out with certain tasks, I'm sure they will appreciate it.

In all ICU areas, the residents will need to attend conferences, lectures and that kind of thing. The NP's will take the workload off them so that they are able to attend to these important things. Perhaps, the resident will get to sleep for more than an hour during call. If the NP can take care of certain issues during the night where the resident/attending only needs to be called if the **** hits the fan or the NP isn't sure how to handle a situation, I'm sure the resident would appreciate that.

The NP's main function in the ICU setting is to help carry out the plan of care as created by the attending, not to take over the ICU.


I've kicked NPs off my ICU team after they repeatedly put my patients in danger.

They should be there for scut work (paperwork, calling consults), PERIOD.

No procedures. No decisions about meds, vents, drips without asking the physician, PERIOD.
 
I think its pretty far fetched to say that NP's/PA's are going to "take over" ICU's. Many procedures done in an ICU are routine. MD's are not in charge because they do procedures. You can train a tech to put a central line in. What makes the MD the primary decision maker is the plan of action not the procedures they do.

Yeah....bedside trachs, central lines, pa caths, alines...those are all routine, right?

Difficult airways, those are all routine, right?

What makes an NP-mid-level in the ICU useful is the scut work they do, not the procedures/decision making they do.
 
You just don't know what you don't know.

NPs want complete independence in all fields of medicine.

It's pathetic.

Don't think that is what the person is saying. And your last comment was clearly condescending. It's ridiculous to get into pissing matches. If you think every physician is super sharp and on the ball over ALL nurses and NPS and PAs, who have picked up on imporant things that those physicians have missed, you are NOT living in reality.

We AGREE, as have I over and over and over that medical school and the residency medical system gives much better education and preparation overall. But what you are missing in the individual factor, and that which grows clinically based on experience. That is up to the individual person. DO NOT even try to NEGATE the clinical insights of people that have gained great experience and understanding into particular issues. It's silly. It is weak, and what's more, it equates to nothing more than some juvenille pissing contest. Wsdom and maturity need to be the voice of reason here, especially in light of the fact that NO ONE is trying to take over medicine for the love of God.



Once more, medicine has MUCH bigger concerns that this spagettified fear of "midlevels."

When a person keeps beating a drum on something that is essentially a non-issue, in light of the fact that there are much bigger, "Titanic" issues where the focus must be, one has to wonder what is with the fixation.

No one wants NPs or PAs or DNPS or non-physicians taking over. Stop imagining that the sky is falling over this issue. It is not. It's just NOT realistic, period.
 
so, NP/PA education/training is (now) to blame for IM TRAINED docs punting central line placements and intubations?
medics can tube, quite well, (and are trained to place centrals) with 1/500th the training...

wow...

FWIW, this is a hospitalist group of seasoned docs (only one is right out of residency, and DOES these procedures)

the hospital has operated this way for a while...

I can only hope this is the exception, not the rule...

having worked in the big city, I NEVER would have thought of taking an inpatient EKG (at 0200, from the CP protocol, written by the hospitalist) to the ER doc to read...simply never happened...

before I got there, the FLOOR nurses were "reading" these, and either called her "interpretation" to the FP doc, or stuffing them in the chart, and waiting for the AM doc to come in...Shame on EVERYBODY for this process...

THAT was scary...nurses have no business "reading" EKGs...

anyway...


medics "tubing" quite well...and placing "central lines quite well"...?

:laugh: No way.

Floor nurses reading ekgs. That is very scary.
 
medics "tubing" quite well...and placing "central lines quite well"...?

medics who intubate regularly can become quite proficient with the skill in all patient populations. those who do it less often obviously aren't as good at it.
I only know a few medics who do central lines and they are the cream of the crop in ems at seattle's medic1. they do subclavians with a high degree of success and it is part of their field protocol for certain situations so they do them often enough to do them well..
I don't know why they do them in the field, I just know that they do....if I was an ems medical director I think I would emphasize IO's over central lines but hey, that's just me....
 
hopkins pa "residency"?

Bleh. Give me a break.

Even the "best" PAs in the units at my hospital (well-known level 1, etc etc), are about pgy 1-1.5 @ best, even after many, many years.

I've seen how pa "residencies" work.

BTW, those ICU docs, not laying an eye on the pt til the next mornin'?

Hang em out to dry.

physicians at my hospital dont even come in daily to see the patient. they have the PA do it all then just sign off in ICU. pretty terrible. i have been consulted on their patients and ill see someone on antibiotics for 20 days with no clear reason why. i think it does a real disservice to these patients.
 
physicians at my hospital dont even come in daily to see the patient. they have the PA do it all then just sign off in ICU. pretty terrible. i have been consulted on their patients and ill see someone on antibiotics for 20 days with no clear reason why. i think it does a real disservice to these patients.

Pssst.... gotta dirty secret to share with you. *Whispers* The patient on abx for weeks on end for no discernible reason (and yes with the form letter reminders right in the chart) exists in hospitals, in ICUs no less, and there aren't even any midlevels to pin it on! Shocking- I know. Don't tell anyone I told you.

*In regular voice now* Stick with depth and breadth of knowledge and outcomes related comparisons. Due diligence is a quality more aptly related to personal character and workload rather than midlevel vs. MD/DO
 
Pssst.... gotta dirty secret to share with you. *Whispers* The patient on abx for weeks on end for no discernible reason (and yes with the form letter reminders right in the chart) exists in hospitals, in ICUs no less, and there aren't even any midlevels to pin it on! Shocking- I know. Don't tell anyone I told you.

*In regular voice now* Stick with depth and breadth of knowledge and outcomes related comparisons. Due diligence is a quality more aptly related to personal character and workload rather than midlevel vs. MD/DO


psss......... got a dirty little response..................




this is an observation at my hospital :)
 
psss......... got a dirty little response..................




this is an observation at my hospital :)

I got that the first time around. I was just passing on an observation at "Joe Mama Hospital" (the name?- just go with it. It was the first thing that popped into my head the first time I've referenced my hospital, and I've just stuck with it.) Anyways, my point being that even with no midlevels in sight, there are glaring examples of lack of due diligence such as you described. So it's not a midlevel thing.

Rants about indolent d-bags needs its own thread.
 
Stick with depth and breadth of knowledge and outcomes related comparisons. Due diligence is a quality more aptly related to personal character and workload rather than midlevel vs. MD/DO

Bul l sh it. I don't care how much personal character you have - a mid-level is not trained to function beyond what we trust PGY-2s with. No amount of "hard work" , reading, etc. will do it.

Go to medical school.

Do a residency.

Be an attending.

That is how you (safely) do the things that the various NPs on this board think they can do (they don't even know their own limitations).

No apologies, no disclaimers, no soft, touchy-feely-let's all get along hugs and kisses.

The cultures of mid-levels pushing to take more responsibility (especially NPs) is dangerous to the American public. And don't talk to me about outcomes related comparisons - God forbid the hospital that would let that study get done.

Do you need an "outcomes related study" to tell you that the 12 year old kids in your neighborhood can't perform surgery safely?

NPs, go back to nursing. Be thankful you get the money you get, you overpaid shortcut takers. I'm embarassed that you get 6 figures for a 40 hour work week when the PGY-2s who run circles around you in depth and breadth of knowledge get 50K.
 
:thumbup:
Bul l sh it. I don't care how much personal character you have - a mid-level is not trained to function beyond what we trust PGY-2s with. No amount of "hard work" , reading, etc. will do it.

Go to medical school.

Do a residency.

Be an attending.

That is how you (safely) do the things that the various NPs on this board think they can do (they don't even know their own limitations).

No apologies, no disclaimers, no soft, touchy-feely-let's all get along hugs and kisses.

The cultures of mid-levels pushing to take more responsibility (especially NPs) is dangerous to the American public. And don't talk to me about outcomes related comparisons - God forbid the hospital that would let that study get done.

Do you need an "outcomes related study" to tell you that the 12 year old kids in your neighborhood can't perform surgery safely?

NPs, go back to nursing. Be thankful you get the money you get, you overpaid shortcut takers. I'm embarassed that you get 6 figures for a 40 hour work week when the PGY-2s who run circles around you in depth and breadth of knowledge get 50K.
 
any nurse reading EKGs is scary stuff

I think it is a matter of context as well. Where I work, we basically have a large set of orders in the form of protocols. The dilemma is often deciding on what set of orders to use. Often assessment findings that include looking at a XII lead will help me decide how to proceed.

Of course, I am not really making a diagnosis or writing my own orders based on the ECG.
 
Yeah....bedside trachs, central lines, pa caths, alines...those are all routine, right?

Difficult airways, those are all routine, right?

What makes an NP-mid-level in the ICU useful is the scut work they do, not the procedures/decision making they do.

For experienced midlevels, some of these procedures may be routine. It all depends on what goes on in a particular unit. The bottom line is, the medical director is going to decide what midlevels or residents are allowed to do. In a recent conversation with an ICU attending, he says he does not allow residents to rotate through his ICU unless they are at the fellow level because he believes that residents, especially interns, are incompetent.

If you think that only physicians make decisions for every single thing that goes on in an ICU, than you obviously haven't spent any time in one. Do you think residents make decisions in an ICU and never do scutwork?? Any resident, especially an intern or a junior resident that is making major decisions in an ICU without verifying it with a fellow or attending is going to his his/her ass chewed out.
 
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I've kicked NPs off my ICU team after they repeatedly put my patients in danger.

They should be there for scut work (paperwork, calling consults), PERIOD.

No procedures. No decisions about meds, vents, drips without asking the physician, PERIOD.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I'm calling BS on this one. A resident is hiring and firing staff??? I don't think so. The regular RN's make decisions about drips vents and meds without calling the physician for every little thing. There are protocols in place for this set by the lead physician/medical director, so obviously they have no problem with this going on.
 
Bul l sh it. I don't care how much personal character you have - a mid-level is not trained to function beyond what we trust PGY-2s with. No amount of "hard work" , reading, etc. will do it.

Go to medical school.

Do a residency.

Be an attending.

That is how you (safely) do the things that the various NPs on this board think they can do (they don't even know their own limitations).

No apologies, no disclaimers, no soft, touchy-feely-let's all get along hugs and kisses.

The cultures of mid-levels pushing to take more responsibility (especially NPs) is dangerous to the American public. And don't talk to me about outcomes related comparisons - God forbid the hospital that would let that study get done.

Do you need an "outcomes related study" to tell you that the 12 year old kids in your neighborhood can't perform surgery safely?

NPs, go back to nursing. Be thankful you get the money you get, you overpaid shortcut takers. I'm embarassed that you get 6 figures for a 40 hour work week when the PGY-2s who run circles around you in depth and breadth of knowledge get 50K.

Oh my goodness, how tiresome you are. Don't bother replying to something I post if you're not going to read it or purposely misconstrue it.

Nowhere did I ever equate a midlevel to a physician. I've never even implied that personal character makes up for a deficiency in education or training. Why you choose to read all that into what I write is an oddity. Yeah, I get it. You are majorly put out that midlevels are stepping into your turf. You are outraged that midlevels are given responsibilities and pay that you don't feel they deserve. Fair enough, I have no problem with that- but all I'm saying is don't try to prove your point with scenarios such as PharmaTope's. As I've said, the scenario with patients moldering in the ICU on antibiotics "just for the hell of it" falling through the cracks such as PharmaTope described is not particularly uncommon in a place that has no midlevels.

If your position has so much merit, then surely you can do better than resort to name calling and whatnot that just makes you come across as a bitter, resentful, lunatic. Other folks on this forum share the same position as you, but express themselves in a much more rational, cogent manner. Not that I expect that you care about my opinion of how you present yourself. I don't doubt you rather enjoy the freedom that internet anonymity affords you. In any case, carry on as you like, but at least try not to misrepresent me. It annoys me a little.

physicians at my hospital dont even come in daily to see the patient. they have the PA do it all then just sign off in ICU. pretty terrible. i have been consulted on their patients and ill see someone on antibiotics for 20 days with no clear reason why. i think it does a real disservice to these patients.
 
Eh, I've spent plenty of time in the ICU.

Good ICUs have the physicians making all the important decisions.

Poor ones, don't.

For experienced midlevels, some of these procedures may be routine. It all depends on what goes on in a particular unit. The bottom line is, the medical director is going to decide what midlevels or residents are allowed to do. In a recent conversation with an ICU attending, he says he does not allow residents to rotate through his ICU unless they are at the fellow level because he believes that residents, especially interns, are incompetent.

If you think that only physicians make decisions for every single thing that goes on in an ICU, than you obviously haven't spent any time in one. Do you think residents make decisions in an ICU and never do scutwork?? Any resident, especially an intern or a junior resident that is making major decisions in an ICU without verifying it with a fellow or attending is going to his his/her ass chewed out.
 
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I'm calling BS on this one. A resident is hiring and firing staff??? I don't think so. The regular RN's make decisions about drips vents and meds without calling the physician for every little thing. There are protocols in place for this set by the lead physician/medical director, so obviously they have no problem with this going on.

Scary to think that you have nurses making vent/med changes. You guys think everything can be solved by "protocols". President Mao-bama can't wait to get folks like you in charge of healthcare.

And yes, there was a poor NP on my service, so I got him kicked to the other team.

He was fired a few months later.

You think a senior resident doesn't have insight on to who is dangerous and who isn't?
 
Scary to think that you have nurses making vent/med changes. You guys think everything can be solved by "protocols". President Mao-bama can't wait to get folks like you in charge of healthcare.

And yes, there was a poor NP on my service, so I got him kicked to the other team.

He was fired a few months later.

You think a senior resident doesn't have insight on to who is dangerous and who isn't?

I didn't say nurses were making all medical decisions. I said that in the ICU, the nurses work more autonomously than on the floors. They start/adjust drips, replace electrolytes, extubate based on ABG's and clinical judgement, and more when the situation warrants it. Guess what, patients are doing well. The residents/fellows are nowhere to be found for most of the shift, and if they nurses didn't do these things, there would be a lot more deaths on the unit. The medical directors have no problem with the way things are done, and these units run great.

I have no idea where people on this board come up with the idea that nurses only make decisions using protocols. Decisions are made based on education, clinical judgement and experience, just as medicine is. If you want to talk about protocols, there are plenty of them in medicine. Sepsis, trauma, stroke, chest pain, they are all protocols. They even put some nice order sets in the computer for the doctors which tells them what to do for the patient and what to order. These are supposed to meant as a guideline secondary to using clinical judgement and experience. If I had a dollar for every time a resident clicks all of the above on every order in the set even if its something that would kill the patient or is not appropriate, I would be rich.

If this particular NP was dangerous, he should be fired. No question. I would hope that as a senior resident you have insight as to who is dangerous, and I hope that you also bring to the attention of your superiors dangerous physicians as well.

ACNP's are not looking to take over the ICU's. There are plenty of ICU's that run very well using midlevels under the direction of the medical director.
 
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...They start/adjust drips, replace electrolytes, extubate based on ABG's and clinical judgement, and more when the situation warrants it.

Unless you're referring to the actual technical aspect of spiking the bag of levophed, etc., then you have just revealed yourself to be a complete fraud who actually has no real experience working in an ICU (I'm even wondering if you actually work in a hospital or if you're some spouse of a disgruntled nurse or something), or you've just incriminated your hospital in major violations of federal law. And if you're working at such a hospital, than that's probably why you have no idea of what Coastie and I are talking about.

A nurse is unequivocally not credentialed to "start" a vasoactive medication infusion. Or any other by-prescription-only med. Full stop. Period. Not even up for a debate. I have a DEA number. What do you have nurso besides an application to CRNA school sitting on your desk and visions of riches dancing in your head at night?

Whatever. This debate is tiresome. The good news is that even if they aren't saying it for your consumption (because people like you only argue and argue, and never actually take any of this to heart, but are only too happy to have the 'real' doctors work on their family members) the vast majority of my colleagues think that the "rise of the NP" in American medicine is only occurring because of a weak-ass, broke government that can't afford to pay for real doctors. And you get what you pay for.

Look around at other Western countries, jack. No other country is selling out their patients to half-ass trained nurses trying to manage complex pathology.

What nurses like you just don't understand is that while you're making your snide little comments behind our back, while you're convincing yourself that you can do our job because you think everything can be managed by protocols and pattern recognition, medical school and residency has an immense value that no amount of "experience", PA school, CRNA school or any other para-medical training can replicate.

But you don't want to hear that. You're too busy trying to gain more autonomy to earn more money, all the while saying you're in it "to take of the patient" when you really have no idea what it means.
 
I said that in the ICU, the nurses work more autonomously than on the floors. They start/adjust drips, replace electrolytes, extubate based on ABG's and clinical judgement, and more when the situation warrants it. Guess what, patients are doing well. The residents/fellows are nowhere to be found for most of the shift, and if they nurses didn't do these things, there would be a lot more deaths on the unit. The medical directors have no problem with the way things are done, and these units run great.


ACNP's are not looking to take over the ICU's. There are plenty of ICU's that run very well using midlevels under the direction of the medical director.

I'm sorry, but I read your post again and busted a gut laughing.

The level of decision making and autonomy you describe just doesn't fit with reality. And midlevels don't really function under the direction of the "medical director"; they function under whomever is the attending at the time, director or not.

You really have no clue about what is going on at the levels above your pay grade, not even in your own unit. I hope you're just naive, and the not the alternative...
 
You start gtts?
You extubate on your own? :laugh: What happens when the patient fails, needs to be reintubated, and no one is around?
"More" when the situation warrants it? Where are the residents/fellows, sleeping? Have you ever actually worked in an ICU? The residents/fellows are always on the floor.

Protocols are the death of medicine as it allows nurses like you to assume that medicine is protocols and clicks on a screen.

BTW, ACNP are trying to take over the ICUs. Who are you kidding?

I'm glad I don't work in your ICU. Your job, as an ICU nurse in my ICU, is to work as a team, following out my plan for the patient, and reporting back to me your concerns and observations regarding the patients course. You are to follow my orders, parameters. You are not to think outside of these boxes as you don't have the experience or knowledge, but input is appreciated and will be considered.

It is not to:
1) start gtts
2) extubate on your own based on ABGs :laugh:
3) "do more" as warranted
4) take over the ICU

Your job is to be a nurse, not attempt to practice parts of medicine.

Got it?

I didn't say nurses were making all medical decisions. I said that in the ICU, the nurses work more autonomously than on the floors. They start/adjust drips, replace electrolytes, extubate based on ABG's and clinical judgement, and more when the situation warrants it. Guess what, patients are doing well. The residents/fellows are nowhere to be found for most of the shift, and if they nurses didn't do these things, there would be a lot more deaths on the unit. The medical directors have no problem with the way things are done, and these units run great.

I have no idea where people on this board come up with the idea that nurses only make decisions using protocols. Decisions are made based on education, clinical judgement and experience, just as medicine is. If you want to talk about protocols, there are plenty of them in medicine. Sepsis, trauma, stroke, chest pain, they are all protocols. They even put some nice order sets in the computer for the doctors which tells them what to do for the patient and what to order. These are supposed to meant as a guideline secondary to using clinical judgement and experience. If I had a dollar for every time a resident clicks all of the above on every order in the set even if its something that would kill the patient or is not appropriate, I would be rich.

If this particular NP was dangerous, he should be fired. No question. I would hope that as a senior resident you have insight as to who is dangerous, and I hope that you also bring to the attention of your superiors dangerous physicians as well.

ACNP's are not looking to take over the ICU's. There are plenty of ICU's that run very well using midlevels under the direction of the medical director.
 
Unless you're referring to the actual technical aspect of spiking the bag of levophed, etc., then you have just revealed yourself to be a complete fraud who actually has no real experience working in an ICU (I'm even wondering if you actually work in a hospital or if you're some spouse of a disgruntled nurse or something), or you've just incriminated your hospital in major violations of federal law. And if you're working at such a hospital, than that's probably why you have no idea of what Coastie and I are talking about.

A nurse is unequivocally not credentialed to "start" a vasoactive medication infusion. Or any other by-prescription-only med. Full stop. Period. Not even up for a debate. I have a DEA number. What do you have nurso besides an application to CRNA school sitting on your desk and visions of riches dancing in your head at night?

Whatever. This debate is tiresome. The good news is that even if they aren't saying it for your consumption (because people like you only argue and argue, and never actually take any of this to heart, but are only too happy to have the 'real' doctors work on their family members) the vast majority of my colleagues think that the "rise of the NP" in American medicine is only occurring because of a weak-ass, broke government that can't afford to pay for real doctors. And you get what you pay for.

Look around at other Western countries, jack. No other country is selling out their patients to half-ass trained nurses trying to manage complex pathology.

What nurses like you just don't understand is that while you're making your snide little comments behind our back, while you're convincing yourself that you can do our job because you think everything can be managed by protocols and pattern recognition, medical school and residency has an immense value that no amount of "experience", PA school, CRNA school or any other para-medical training can replicate.

But you don't want to hear that. You're too busy trying to gain more autonomy to earn more money, all the while saying you're in it "to take of the patient" when you really have no idea what it means.

+1 QFT.

Don't forget they are also "patient advocates".

What a crock.
 
extubate based on ABG's and clinical judgement

Coastie already pointed this out, but I am so :eek::confused:, I must ask:

NYRN - that phrase was a mistake, right? a bit overzealous?

I will leave the whole discussion of 'extubation based on ABGs' alone for now (at least "...and clinical judgement" was in there), but are you, NYRN, actually suggesting that RNs are, could, or should extubate patients it the ICU? (and I don't mean deflating the cuff and yanking out the tube...I mean making the independent decision that the patient can be extubated, performing or directing the extubation independently, and/or independently monitoring the patient post-extubation with a plan to re-intubate if necessary...and, as a second question, are you also saying you would/could re-intubate if needed?)

Please answer/explain NYRN.

HH

EDIT: and, if you are going to re-intubate, how would you get the drugs? Are you suggesting an RN orders medications, also? ...or would you just use brutane?

HH
 
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