Accused of trying to be wonder woman

[MangoSupasonic]

So, this is a bit of a vent and I wanted feedback from other experiences you all may have had. Giving a bit of back story, I should be returning to school this fall to finish my prerequisites, take the MCAT and eventually apply for medical school. I'm 25, married with two young children. My husband is actually 100% supportive of my dream and goal to possibly become an OBGYN (I say possibly, because I could end up falling in love with another specialty).

This past year, I've been volunteering with my local hospital and it made me realize that I do want to become a physician, anyway, I haven't told too many people because I come from a rather small city and people gossip. You're usual issues when you live in a small area. However, I did tell my mother and while she seemed supportive in the beginning, a few days ago, she grilled me.

I don't mind people asking me 193089032 questions as to why I want to go down this path, but later in the conversation she begins to have a go at me, accusing me of wanting to be wonder woman, either abandoning my kids or my husband chasing after this goal. The irony? My grandmother is a physician and my mother was a full grown adult when she returned to school and in my case, my children will be much older by the time I get to medical school, they won't be babies.

Thoughts?

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[GypsyHummus]

So, this is a bit of a vent and I wanted feedback from other experiences you all may have had. Giving a bit of back story, I should be returning to school this fall to finish my prerequisites, take the MCAT and eventually apply for medical school. I'm 25, married with two young children. My husband is actually 100% supportive of my dream and goal to possibly become an OBGYN (I say possibly, because I could end up falling in love with another specialty).

This past year, I've been volunteering with my local hospital and it made me realize that I do want to become a physician, anyway, I haven't told too many people because I come from a rather small city and people gossip. You're usual issues when you live in a small area. However, I did tell my mother and while she seemed supportive in the beginning, a few days ago, she grilled me.

I don't mind people asking me 193089032 questions as to why I want to go down this path, but later in the conversation she begins to have a go at me, accusing me of wanting to be wonder woman, either abandoning my kids or my husband chasing after this goal. The irony? My grandmother is a physician and my mother was a full grown adult when she returned to school and in my case, my children will be much older by the time I get to medical school, they won't be babies.

Thoughts?

There have been studies done that have shown a link between maternal abandonment at an early age and disfunction of the child when they grow up. Adding to that, do you really want strangers teaching your children moral values when they are just developing? Just because mommy was also gone or emotionally unavailable because she was busy chasing down "her dream"? Seems irresponsible to me.

The most pertinent age it seems is till they are around 10 years of age. If your children are over the age of ten, then going on this path seems like a decent option, if it is truly your "dream". If not, I would wait until they are, and then pursue medicine. Medical school isn't going anywhere. Its awesome that your husband is on board as well, as you are going to need all the support you can get.

 

[MangoSupasonic]

There have been studies done that have shown a link between maternal abandonment at an early age and disfunction of the child when they grow up. Adding to that, do you really want strangers teaching your children moral values when they are just developing? Just because mommy was also gone or emotionally unavailable because she was busy chasing down "her dream"? Seems irresponsible to me.

The most pertinent age it seems is till they are around 10 years of age. If your children are over the age of ten, then going on this path seems like a decent option, if it is truly your "dream". If not, I would wait until they are, and then pursue medicine. Medical school isn't going anywhere. Its awesome that your husband is on board as well, as you are going to need all the support you can get.

Thank you for your response and I totally agree with being there for my children while they're still as young as they are. Hence, why I'm not bothering to apply for medical school now, I'm just focusing on my EC's and a few post bacc courses. I'm currently a stay at home mother for that reason.

I was just shocked to be told that I'm ruining my kids if I head off to medical school at any aspect of their lives before the age of 18.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Thank you for your response and I totally agree with being there for my children while they're still as young as they are. Hence, why I'm not bothering to apply for medical school now, I'm just focusing on my EC's and a few post bacc courses. I'm currently a stay at home mother for that reason.

I was just shocked to be told that I'm ruining my kids if I head off to medical school at any aspect of their lives before the age of 18.

Nah, you don't have to be stuck with them until they turn 18, they should be ok if you were totally there for the entirety of their childhood. The human brain doesn't stop developing until the age of 25 however, so I would still be in their lives at the ages of middle school through late high school. Once they start driving, then they can start operating more independent, and momma can start to focus on med school.

I actually went to college with a girl who's mom did this exact same thing, started school in her mid thirties. The girl was extremely well spoken, took a couple of years off, and eventually got into a medical school as a non traditional applicant. Med school is an investment, children are an investment, make sure to invest smartly and with the proper time commitments otherwise both will suffer equally. You can not have both at the same time. Make sure to invest in your kids during the early developmental years, with children, its pay me now or pay me later as a parent.

Good luck!

 

[deleted343839]

There have been studies done that have shown a link between maternal abandonment at an early age and disfunction of the child when they grow up.

Equating what the OP is suggesting with "maternal abandonment" is hyperbole in the extreme. Suggestion: enjoy your opinions, but leave the science on day care and childhood development to the pros.

 

[Pulpectomy]

You can have it all. You will have time with your kids during medical school. Residency will be a little harder. As said by others, it will be hard but it will be worth it if it's important to you. Many women and men with children have done it. Your children will not be abandoned!


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[deleted480308]

You can have it all. You will have time with your kids during medical school. Residency will be a little harder. As said by others, it will be hard but it will be worth it if it's important to you. Many women and men with children have done it. Your children will not be abandoned!


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but you can't.....you can still have children and a career. What you can't still have is a 5 year surgical residency and your kids still get as much time from you as they deserve. You may choose that it's a worthwhile sacrifice, but it is a sacrifice. That doesn't change with males or females, it's just the math of how many hours there are in a day

 

[DrCommonSense]

Medical school does not equal "maternal abandonment." Leaving your kid at a train station to be picked up by foster care is abandonment. My parents were both in med school when I was young. I was raised primarily by grandparents and nanny. I have a great relationship with my parents and also became a physician.

OP, the idea that you can't have it all is nonsense. It is possible with the support of loved ones, but it will be difficult, especially if your kids are young. If you have a supportive spouse, it will help. If this is your dream, and you have support, and you don't foresee an issue with seeing your kids less than other parents see theirs, go for it and don't wait. You're already 25. When you finish Med school you will be 29. Shortest residency will be 3 years. But if you choose surgery, it will be 5 years. So you're 32-34 when you start practice, versus in your 40s if you wait. More time to practice and learn your craft.

She will be done with medical school far later than that.

She hasn't even taken the MCAT or prereqs. Assuming she does well on the MCATs and finishes these classes, she will be 27-28 before she even applies, 29 at matriculation with 33 graduation. If she does OB/GYN, she will be 37 or so when she gets out.

Hard to say if this is a good move financially or personally with 2 kids and the large amount of debt she will likely take on.

 

[jlrussell25]

If it's what you want to do, then do it, but realize it's no walk in the park. Understand the sacrifice you'll make, and that you'll also make a lot of decisions where emotion will not be an option. If someone accuses you of trying to be super woman, thank them for understanding the gravity of the undertaking and tell them how much you'll appreciate their support. If the negativity keeps coming, shake it off and do what you want to do with your life. You only have the one, it'd be a shame to let someone else, even your mother, talk you out of it.


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[DokterMom]

Sounds to me like your mother is projecting her own feelings of career-inadequacy onto you...

Sure, there are trade-offs. As has been mentioned, there are only so many hours in a day, and the hours you spend in college, med school, residency are hours you won't be spending with your children. The same applies to your husband and his career. (He's not abandoning them too, is he?)

Your children will still learn your morals even if you're not drilling them into their little heads 24/7 and washing them down with home-made cookies and milk. In fact, watching you achieve your goals and exemplify the value of hard work in pursuit of worthwhile goals might even be good for them.

 

[SeniorWrangler]

My dad went back to med school when he was forty and I was 6; it was a big hardship for the family but I was and am terrifically proud of him for doing that and it set a great example of lifelong learning and mental flexibility that I try to live up to. What I'm trying to say is that only you and your family can figure out what makes sense for you, and your kids are going to adapt to the only life and only mother they have ever known.

 

[DrCommonSense]

My dad went back to med school when he was forty and I was 6; it was a big hardship for the family but I was and am terrifically proud of him for doing that and it set a great example of lifelong learning and mental flexibility that I try to live up to. What I'm trying to say is that only you and your family can figure out what makes sense for you, and your kids are going to adapt to the only life and only mother they have ever known.

That might be true but she will be in a WORLD of hard work for MANY years without seeing her kids. She will have no other option but to work for MANY YEARS at HIGH HOURS to pay off her med school debt that is going to be increasing at a minimum of 6.8% per year at current rates.

There is zero turning back unless her husband can pay off her loans if she decides she would like to work "part time" after having children. Its often not that simple after having children.

 

[SunnyDO]

My dad went back to med school when he was forty and I was 6; it was a big hardship for the family but I was and am terrifically proud of him for doing that and it set a great example of lifelong learning and mental flexibility that I try to live up to. What I'm trying to say is that only you and your family can figure out what makes sense for you, and your kids are going to adapt to the only life and only mother they have ever known.

This is pretty inspirational.

 

[DokterMom]

That might be true but she will be in a WORLD of hard work for MANY years without seeing her kids. She will have no other option but to work for MANY YEARS at HIGH HOURS to pay off her med school debt that is going to be increasing at a minimum of 6.8% per year at current rates.

There is zero turning back unless her husband can pay off her loans if she decides she would like to work "part time" after having children. Its often not that simple after having children.

I find it depressing that there's still so much blatant sexism at play here. Imagine if it were the OP's husband who was contemplating fulfilling his lifelong dream of becoming a physician. These same responders would be urging her to step up and commit the extra hours because it's for the good of the family; it's her duty to support his ambitions; at least she will still be there for the kids; the sacrifices will be worth it, etc.

Sounds like 50 years ago...

 

[DrCommonSense]

I find it depressing that there's still so much blatant sexism at play here. Imagine if it were the OP's husband who was contemplating fulfilling his lifelong dream of becoming a physician. These same responders would be urging her to step up and commit the extra hours because it's for the good of the family; it's her duty to support his ambitions; at least she will still be there for the kids; the sacrifices will be worth it, etc.

Sounds like 50 years ago...

Actually no, I wouldn't be a huge fan of a male doing this either. However, its not "sexist" to acknowledge there is a significantly higher likelihood that she will not continue working after having children compared to a male.

Do you really want me to start linking the figures out of the NHS to prove my point?

 

[DokterMom]

Actually no, I wouldn't be a huge fan of a male doing this either. However, its not "sexist" to acknowledge there is a significantly higher likelihood that she will not continue working after having children compared to a male.

Do you really want me to start linking the figures out of the NHS to prove my point?

"It's typically this way, so that's the way it should be" Is that your argument?

 

[DrCommonSense]

"It's typically this way, so that's the way it should be" Is that your argument?

Never said its the way it "should" be, I am speaking about the statistical odds of her dropping out of the work force later after having kids and doing a grueling residency is typically far higher than for a male.

This is particularly true if her husband has a higher salary, burdening him with the extra student loan costs.

I can cite NHS stats to back this up if you would like.

 

[SunnyDO]

But wouldn't statistics be influenced by culture in someway... If the expectation for females vs males is historically prevalent, then statistics that were documented during these time periods are influenced by these expectations.

 

[DrCommonSense]

But wouldn't statistics be influenced by culture in someway... If the expectation for females vs males is historically prevalent, then statistics that were documented during these time periods are influenced by these expectations.

Yes but then why don't women just become physicians and marry down?

Plenty of poorer men to chose from that can work part time or just be a stay at home dad.

Yet female physicians seem to only want to date equals or better mostly. Why is that?

Maybe they are influenced by their own internal biology and desires?

Women physicians will often complain that "male physicians can have it all" but those same men are often marrying women who make FAR less money than they do.

Women physicians have that option but seem to very infrequently chose that. Why?

 

[SunnyDO]

Funny.. I know a dermatologist married to an engineer. On-average, engineers make less. I guess that's considered "marrying down", as you would put it. Believe it or not.. some people actually still marry for love.

ANYWAYS. Your point is pretty irrelevant, so I will digress.

 

[DrCommonSense]

Funny.. I know a dermatologist married to an engineer. On-average, engineers make less. I guess that's considered "marrying down", as you would put it. Believe it or not.. some people actually still marry for love.

ANYWAYS. Your point is pretty irrelevant, so I will digress.

How is it irrelevant?

Female physicians who complain that the "culture" is holding them back largely state that they are "expected" to "do the chores and take care of kids in addition to work". This is a common problem if you marry someone who makes as much as you or more, since the sharing of chores becomes a point of contention.

Those female physicians could easily marry one of the large number of lower paid males who work part time who could "manage the chores and take care of the kids" just like male physicians often do.

How come more female physicians don't do that?

 

[SunnyDO]

But why can't a male physician who is married to a female physician "do the chores and take care of kids in addition to work", while the female physician advocates more time towards focusing on her career?

 

[DokterMom]

Some do -- But again, social pressures... It also takes a strong man to date a woman who's more successful income- and education-wise. And a confident man to take the back-seat financially and the leading role in home- and child-care. It's so much easier socially to conform to the same-ole' patterns...

 

[deleted480308]

But why can't a male physician who is married to a female physician "do the chores and take care of kids in addition to work", while the female physician advocates more time towards focusing on her career?

They can, but that's a discussion for the married couple to have with each other

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

But why can't a male physician who is married to a female physician "do the chores and take care of kids in addition to work", while the female physician advocates more time towards focusing on her career?

Well if it's equal--if both are physicians and sacrifice equally and contribute to housework, then I think would be ideal. Otherwise, I think the physician with the more demanding career (like if a surgeon is married to a dermatologist) should be doing less housework. Or hire a nanny! Physician salaries can afford that.

 

[SunnyDO]

I just thought it was a bit odd that DrCommonSense (Ironic?) thinks that women should marry down [income-wise] to find a man who is willing to pick up these responsibilities. It's almost as if he is saying that if a married couple, woman and man, were completely equal in terms of income, the woman should still be responsible for the household duties.

I agree that this is a discussion that a couple should definitely have.
I also agree that the person with the less demanding career should pick up more of the responsibilities.
I agree with these ideas because they reinforce equality among genders.

All along, I thought these ideas were common sense.

 

[DrCommonSense]

But why can't a male physician who is married to a female physician "do the chores and take care of kids in addition to work", while the female physician advocates more time towards focusing on her career?

Why should he unless he wanted to?

Most male physicians are perfectly happy to marry a woman who makes far less than him but takes care of domestic chores and has kids.

Some might be happy with a 50/50 chores/income relationship but many don't want that.

 

[DrCommonSense]

Some do -- But again, social pressures... It also takes a strong man to date a woman who's more successful income- and education-wise. And a confident man to take the back-seat financially and the leading role in home- and child-care. It's so much easier socially to conform to the same-ole' patterns...

Actually that "social pressure" goes both ways.

Highly paid women aren't often happy with low income men who take care of their chores.

Women need to change their expectations as well so as to avoid making the less paid male feel unimportant. Kind've like a male physician often does with his wife who stays at home.

 

[DrCommonSense]

Well if it's equal--if both are physicians and sacrifice equally and contribute to housework, then I think would be ideal. Otherwise, I think the physician with the more demanding career (like if a surgeon is married to a dermatologist) should be doing less housework. Or hire a nanny! Physician salaries can afford that.

Why should the dermatologist male marry an ortho female surgeon though?

He might be perfectly content with a stay at home mom with 3 kids that takes care of the house. He should have more than enough money as a dermatologist to afford this.

The marginal utility of money greatly decreases after you earn over a few 100K.

Ergo, the male dermatologist will be unlikely interested in that extra salary vs other qualities he might value more such as a stay at home mom who does chores, takes care of the kids, etc.

In fact, I would venture to say the majority of males in higher paid specialities would be more likely to be interested in that type of complimentary person vs another high flying physician spouse.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Why should the dermatologist male marry an ortho female surgeon though?

He might be perfectly content with a stay at home mom with 3 kids that takes care of the house.

He doesn't have to marry the Ortho surgeon and might not want to marry that type of female due to her lifestyle.

I never said he should or shouldn't. But I'm a proponent of people taking equal responsibility if their careers are equally demanding.

 

[SunnyDO]

This dude is comparing marriage to a power struggle.. and if marriage is just a power struggle it really just sounds like a soon-to-be divorce.

Marriage is not supposed to be about who has what career or who makes (insert pre-determined dollar amount here).

You marry someone because you like who they are as a person (I HOPE).
When one person is going through something, the other person chimes in to pick up the slack.
This applies as much to men as it does women.

As this applies to the OP, it seems like her husband is ready to pick up the slack. So don't tell her that she shouldn't follow her dreams because of some bulls**t statistics and "social expectations".
Tell her if this is what she wants, and if she is ready to make the sacrifice - take your best shot and show the world what you got.

 

[DrCommonSense]

I never said he should or shouldn't. But I'm a proponent of people taking equal responsibility if their careers are equally demanding.

Yes but its the female physicians who are complaining about "not having it all" and "being expected to take care of the chores".

If they can find a husband who is equally high paying and willing to split chores 50/50, more power to them.

However, many/most higher paid physician males will probably not want to marry that high powered physician female.

Ergo, she won't be able to obtain that 50/50 relationship in most/many cases.

 

[DrCommonSense]

This dude is comparing marriage to a power struggle.. and if marriage is just a power struggle it really just sounds like a soon-to-be divorce.

Marriage is not supposed to be about who has what career or who makes (insert pre-determined dollar amount here).

You marry someone because you like who they are as a person (I HOPE).
When one person is going through something, the other person chimes in to pick up the slack.
This applies as much to men as it does women.

As this applies to the OP, it seems like her husband is ready to pick up the slack. So don't tell her that she shouldn't follow her dreams because of some bulls**t statistics and "social expectations".
Tell her if this is what she wants, and if she is ready to make the sacrifice - take your best shot and show the world what you got.

The male she is married to has to sacrifice as well by paying her bills while she's in school and/or family bills. He is also taking a HUGE risk if she decides to stop working after racking up 100s of thousands in loans after she has kids at an advanced age.

Ergo, its not all about just "her" wants.

The problem with these analyses is that the man is supposed to just sacrifice for the women because you know "feminism" and he is supposed to just pick up the slack because he's a "man".

You fail to show the benefit for the man.

 

[DokterMom]

The male she is married to has to sacrifice as well by paying her bills while she's in school and/or family bills. He is also taking a HUGE risk if she decides to stop working after racking up 100s of thousands in loans after she has kids at an advanced age.

Ergo, its not all about just "her" wants.

The problem with these analyses is that the man is supposed to just sacrifice for the women because you know "feminism" and he is supposed to just pick up the slack because he's a "man".

You fail to show the benefit for the man.

Egads... The benefit to the man is a wife who is personally and professionally fulfilled, one who contributes to the good of society, sets a wonderful example of accomplishment and service for her children and one who also happens to bring home a helluva paycheck. In my book, that's not a bad deal.

 

[SunnyDO]

The male she is married to has to sacrifice as well by paying her bills while she's in school and/or family bills. He is also taking a HUGE risk if she decides to stop working after racking up 100s of thousands in loans after she has kids at an advanced age.

Ergo, its not all about just "her" wants.

The problem with these analyses is that the man is supposed to just sacrifice for the women because you know "feminism" and he is supposed to just pick up the slack because he's a "man".

You fail to show the benefit for the man.

The benefit for the man is the love of the woman he loves.
I try to refrain from saying mean things on this forum, but I feel so bad for your future/current partner-in-crime.

Officially signing off from this conversation.

 

[DokterMom]

Lol you sound like a bitter mgtow who sees everything in terms of risk and benefit.
You say there are plenty of less wealthy guys who are falling all over themselves to volunteer to do the cooking and cleaning, and it's our fault for not wanting to marry them. Yet in the same breath, you say other men don't want to marry someone who is in a high powered career, so that implies it's our fault for choosing to be independently successful. So which ones are the "real men" in your opinion? Is the guy who wants to do the cooking and cleaning a useless beta ****? See the issue in that mentality is that these MRA guys lament the loss of traditional gender roles and want women to be caretakers, yet rant about how all women do is suck money from men. Can't have one without the other...you breed dependency, and that's what you will get.

And for the record, there are a ton of male physicians who are married to high powered women and are just fine. I work with many of them. Your generalizations are absurd. I've never in my life heard a female physician complain about feeling unequal or forced to do more work. You need to go out there and actually talk to some of us instead of assuming we're some third wave feminist crazies. Psssh.

Well said! My husband is my strongest supporter, and highly values what I bring to our team as I value his contributions. We both acknowledge gratefully what the other spouse brings to the table, and neither one of us is threatened by the other's success. (How pathetic and counter-productive that would be!) Paying someone to help with the cooking, cleaning and yard work makes our lives much more enjoyable, and with a physician's salary, that's not a problem.

Yeah, I know some male physicians who want a stay-at-home wife to do all the 'support' work. And tragically, many of these same men resent the financial dependence -- so unfair! You don't want a dependent, then pick an equal. But if you pick an equal, at least give her the respect she's due -- meaning all of the housework is no more her responsibility than yours.

 

[DrCommonSense]

The benefit for the man is the love of the woman he loves.
I try to refrain from saying mean things on this forum, but I feel so bad for your future/current partner-in-crime.

Officially signing off from this conversation.

Yup because irrational shaming language is the best method to "win" a debate.

So essentially you are taking an intangible concept of "love" for tangible sacrifices that MAN has to make for the FEMALE in the above situation.

When few men are willing to make such sacrifices that are illogical for him to make for a self beneficial assessment, he is deemed "sexist" for not sacrificing himself for her whims.

Essentially, the man becomes a disposable creature whose sole objective in life is to sacrifice himself for the female to enable her to be "happy and fulfilled".

Hmm then you wonder why dudes are running away from these situations?

Relationships are TWO WAY STREETS whereby both parties need to MUTUALLY benefit. When situations are present where one side is basically asked to SACRIFICE for the other side in return for "love" or other intangibles, I find this laughable at best.

How often do you see the reverse situation expected?

 

[DrCommonSense]

Lol you sound like a bitter mgtow who sees everything in terms of risk and benefit.
You say there are plenty of less wealthy guys who are falling all over themselves to volunteer to do the cooking and cleaning, and it's our fault for not wanting to marry them. Yet in the same breath, you say other men don't want to marry someone who is in a high powered career, so that implies it's our fault for choosing to be independently successful. So which ones are the "real men" in your opinion? Is the guy who wants to do the cooking and cleaning a useless beta ****? See the issue in that mentality is that these MRA guys lament the loss of traditional gender roles and want women to be caretakers, yet rant about how all women do is suck money from men. Can't have one without the other...you breed dependency, and that's what you will get.

And for the record, there are a ton of male physicians who are married to high powered women and are just fine. I work with many of them. Your generalizations are absurd. I've never in my life heard a female physician complain about feeling unequal or forced to do more work. You need to go out there and actually talk to some of us instead of assuming we're some third wave feminist crazies. Psssh.

Nice shaming language about "MGTOW", guess you learned that in women's studies course 101. I could easily argue you are a "bitter feminist" as an ad hom attack back.

Your argument is fully illogical and purposely strawmans around my CLEAR statement.

Relationships are MUTUALLY beneficial. If "MGTOW" teaches that, I support "MGTOW".

Ergo, women must provide VALUE for the male as well in terms that he FINDS valuable to maintain a COMMITTED relationship.

I have clearly stated there are SOME male physicians married to female physicians in 50/50 relationships.

However, the number of male physicians married to women who make less than them is VERY high whereby these male physicians VALUE a stay at home mother who stays with the children, does chores, etc.

In terms of those relationships, BOTH parties are obtaining VALUE.

In turn, this leaves a LARGE number of UNMARRIED female physicians in their 30+ age range that will either be FORCED to marry down or NOT get married. Hence, the shaming language and "anger" towards the higher level men who are supposedly "intimidated" by them.

If you haven't noticed, it isn't the male physicians writing whiny screeds about men being "intimidated by them" or some other nonsense to justify their lack of marriage/commitment from men.

 

[DrCommonSense]

Well said! My husband is my strongest supporter, and highly values what I bring to our team as I value his contributions. We both acknowledge gratefully what the other spouse brings to the table, and neither one of us is threatened by the other's success. (How pathetic and counter-productive that would be!) Paying someone to help with the cooking, cleaning and yard work makes our lives much more enjoyable, and with a physician's salary, that's not a problem.

Yeah, I know some male physicians who want a stay-at-home wife to do all the 'support' work. And tragically, many of these same men resent the financial dependence -- so unfair! You don't want a dependent, then pick an equal. But if you pick an equal, at least give her the respect she's due -- meaning all of the housework is no more her responsibility than yours.

and vice versa for the female physicians as well

If a female physician picks a lesser earning male, she shouldn't RESENT him for making less.

If a female physician picks an "equal", she should give HIM the respect he's due as well in terms of paying half the bills, doing half the chores, etc.

 

[DrCommonSense]

As a female medical student who is currently ~playing the field~ as the kids say, I would be 100% fine with dating/marrying someone who makes less than I do. In fact, I would honestly love to have a husband who would like nothing more than to be a stay at home dad. I'd also be perfectly happy to marry another doctor and split the household stuff 50/50. Here's the problem though: in my experience, there are many men out there who for some reason don't like the idea of their wife making more than they do. It is not easy to find men who are okay with their partner having a high power/prestige/paying/etc., unless (again - my limited personal experience) they also have a similar career.

With a very large segment of men who make far less than a physician, the odds of finding a man who you can marry that makes less money than you should remain pretty high if it is a priority.

The same goes for male physicians in their 30s who attempt to find a nice, younger female who would like to have children and form a family while taking care of household chores. He has to work at finding that as well.

To find anything worthwhile in this world, you have to work hard to find it. The sooner you work on finding it, the better.

 

[DrCommonSense]

Uh, I wasn't asking for a random internet red pill-er's opinion on my love life. I was answering your question as to why women physicians don't "marry down." You're blaming it on the women, I'm saying it's not that simple.

Nothing in life is "simple".

Thats the nature of relationships.

How can you tell that ALL of the VAST number of poorer men out there would not want to marry a physician female who treats them well? I find that EXTREMELY hard to believe.

According to MANY surveys, very few men anymore would rule out dating women who MAKE MORE THAN THEM. Seems like there is a large segment of men who would love to marry up.

Guys Explain Why They'd Date A Girl Who Makes More Than Them

Here's an article about the problems of higher paid women dating poorer men:

Alpha Women, Beta Men

Apparently, most of the "richer" women were "turned off" by their poorer earning spouses sexually due to them being like a "child".

I wonder if this is the REAL reason ladies are avoiding these guys and are using the EXCUSE that men don't like women who make more than them.

Maybe its because those men think the women will NEVER respect them if they earn less?

From my experience, this is FAR more common than the other way around. Women who earn more than men have a HARD time "respecting" those men.

 

[DrCommonSense]

Uh, I wasn't asking for a random internet red pill-er's opinion on my love life. I was answering your question as to why women physicians don't "marry down." You're blaming it on the women, I'm saying it's not that simple.

Here's a survey of women out of London on their "willingness" to date men who make less than them:

That's rich... women decline to date men who earn less - however good looking

Seems like the majority of women are unwilling to do it, even if the male is VERY good looking.

But I guess thats never true among female physicians right?

P.S. 60% of women were UNWILLING TO DATE DOWN while 96% percent of men were willing to date up.

 

[DrCommonSense]

That's pretty funny, dear...using the term "shaming language" and then accusing me of taking a women's studies course. I'm a gun loving, rightwing female surgeon who makes 5x more than my fiancé, and he does the cleaning and cooking, and we are very happy together. I learned the term from reading MRA websites and their lesser known, more gross offshoots like RoK. What you call "whiny screeds" are legitimate claims by women like me, who are faced with a bunch of whiny, insecure men who don't feel comfortable with women who make more than they do. Maybe if they would grow some balls and not feel that their masculinity is somehow diminished by dating a woman who makes more than they do, we wouldn't have this issue.
Jesus, your hatred of women is coming out of your pores. I do hope you keep it to yourself when you practice medicine.
Bye Felicia.

Damn I would really want to date a female who called men "insecure whiny men who should grow some balls". Sounds like a peach. Sound like a real supporter of men with such wonderful language.

Fortunately, you are a caring person that is concerned about the well being of both sexes unlike myself whose an oppressor or something.

The questions I have is:

A) Why are you reading MRA sites?
B) You should be 100% happy then if you married a house husband, why are you complaining about how hard it is to find such a relationship? You should be out there preaching how great it is and how you did it! Other women can learn from your example of a strong independent woman!
C) Why do you use gendered male language in a negative manner then claim you are "right wing" and never use "shaming" language?

Also, the stats show its the WOMEN who have a problem dating down NOT the men dating up (surveys).

 

[DrCommonSense]

It seems like the first article is just a journalist texting guys she knows to ask what they think...you'll forgive me if I don't count that as a real survey.

Your second article is an editorial (by a man who is talking about how women feel) that features several anecdotal stories of individual couples, but no actual data.

And the third article is from the UK, not from the US which, as I'm sure you can guess, is where most of the men in my dating pool are from, but regardless doesn't even link to the actual survey results.

I would happily consider a link to a real, actual, scientifically rigorous survey.

No problem:

Rich women like rich men, and rich men like slender women

Rich men like Slender, Younger Women
Rich women/Higher Income women like Higher Income/"Good Career" men

Guess that survey out of California is wrong though right?

 

[DrCommonSense]

It seems like the first article is just a journalist texting guys she knows to ask what they think...you'll forgive me if I don't count that as a real survey.

Your second article is an editorial (by a man who is talking about how women feel) that features several anecdotal stories of individual couples, but no actual data.

And the third article is from the UK, not from the US which, as I'm sure you can guess, is where most of the men in my dating pool are from, but regardless doesn't even link to the actual survey results.

I would happily consider a link to a real, actual, scientifically rigorous survey.

Here's the peer reviewed article link too:

Mating markets and bargaining hands: Mate preferences for attractiveness and resources in two national U.S. studies

Summary: Rich women STRONGLY go for rich/"good career" males, Rich men go for slender and younger women.

Not too complicated.

Ergo, richer/higher income males often DONT value high income in their partner compared to slender/youthfulness likely due to wanting a family from a biological perspective.

Women of all socioeconomic classes want men who earn equal or often MORE than they do as a primary motivator for commitment. This correlation is STRONGER for HIGHER income women.

 

[DrCommonSense]

That's a cute little strawman you threw in at the end there.

Those are SIGNIFICANTLY different statistics than the ones you cited earlier. These say that less than half of women care whether their partner makes less money than they do, and a quarter of men would NOT date someone that makes less than they do - a far cry from the 60%/94% figures from your previous post. And I'll certainly admit that because I come from a more "traditional" community (rural, conservative, Christian, etc.), my experiences are likely skewed towards people preferring more traditional gender roles. And I'm not denying there are women out there who hold that belief. But regardless of whether they will admit it to themselves/in a survey, there is a good number of men out there who are just not comfortable with dating a woman who has "achieved" more than he has from a career perspective for various reasons. Maybe it's not the money itself - for example, I have been accused of creating a terrible life for my hypothetical future husband and children because I want to be a doctor more than once by men from my hometown. It's not the money that's the problem - it's the commitment to a career.

I also think you're ignoring that there might be value in dating someone of your income bracket besides the money itself - similar interests and background, similar personality traits such as intelligence or ambition, etc. I don't even understand why somebody who is already making a lot of money such as a physician would want to marry for money - they already have everything they need and a good amount of the things they want. Personally, money alone is not something I consider to be an important trait of a partner because I've got that handled whether I get married or not.

So if a man who makes plenty of money as a physician doesn't really care about money in a mate but is more concerned mostly with a "slender body" and a "good looking" female (educated men had the HIGHEST correlation with that statistic), wouldn't those docs mostly go for younger, slender looking trophy wives as their most desirable goal?

According to the survey, this is their highest value in a female they want to marry/date.

 

[DrCommonSense]

That's a cute little strawman you threw in at the end there.

Those are SIGNIFICANTLY different statistics than the ones you cited earlier. These say that less than half of women care whether their partner makes less money than they do, and a quarter of men would NOT date someone that makes less than they do - a far cry from the 60%/94% figures from your previous post. And I'll certainly admit that because I come from a more "traditional" community (rural, conservative, Christian, etc.), my experiences are likely skewed towards people preferring more traditional gender roles. And I'm not denying there are women out there who hold that belief. But regardless of whether they will admit it to themselves/in a survey, there is a good number of men out there who are just not comfortable with dating a woman who has "achieved" more than he has from a career perspective for various reasons. Maybe it's not the money itself - for example, I have been accused of creating a terrible life for my hypothetical future husband and children because I want to be a doctor more than once by men from my hometown. It's not the money that's the problem - it's the commitment to a career.

I also think you're ignoring that there might be value in dating someone of your income bracket besides the money itself - similar interests and background, similar personality traits such as intelligence or ambition, etc. I don't even understand why somebody who is already making a lot of money such as a physician would want to marry for money - they already have everything they need and a good amount of the things they want. Personally, money alone is not something I consider to be an important trait of a partner because I've got that handled whether I get married or not.

Also, here is an article from psychology today:

Very Wealthy Men Marry Much Younger Women

Wealthy men who presumably have their choices of women will marry FAR YOUNGER women as second wives.

Ergo, wealthy men/high income men overall have a high correlation with interest in slender and younger women.

The trade off appears to benefit both parties considering they are often able to achieve that goal due to the value that the younger/slender women put on wealth.

 

[DrCommonSense]

It seems to me that you didn't actually read my comment and started a whole different conversation.

ETA: Please try to just respond to me one time instead of twice.

Your statement was in two parts:

1) Your conservative rural guys didn't want a high income female. My solution: look for liberal open minded poorer guys that are willing to be house husbands. Problem solved.

2) You claim that people of similar income brackets have "more in common" and therefore "are good mates". My answer: This is an incorrect assessment for the values that "educated" and "rich" men hold the HIGHEST. Sure women will often want a male with similar or higher income (particularly when they are high income themselves) as their highest ideals but NOT men ON AVERAGE.

Ergo, I linked the article showing the strong correlation between rich men and younger/slender wives. Richer men are usually less interested in "common interests" with similar income/aged women compared to younger/slender women.

That is why I linked multiple articles confirming that assessment.

These are AVERAGES obviously so please don't come back with exceptions that will fall outside of these. They are called EXCEPTIONS for a reason.

There is where the major disconnect is for female physicians.

 

[DrCommonSense]

1) Again, not asking you to solve my problems, and whether I have a boyfriend lined up and ready to get married is not a problem or priority for me anyway at this point in my life. The point remains that there are men out there who are not interested in a career-driven wife or one who makes more than he does. And your suggestion to look for a "liberal husband" who is okay with his wife having a high powered career kind of proves my point - who tends to be more liberal? People with more education. In my community, people with middle to upper middle class incomes. People who are interested in having a career.

2) I didn't intend to make any sort of statement about what men want in a wife, I made a statement about what female physicians tend want in a husband - which is a partner and equal with similar interests. That rich men are more interested in looks than having things in common is supportive of my point, not yours.

1) Ok not all men like career women. And?
2) Umm don't get the point

 

[na1433]

Having a job does not equal to abandoning your kids. You can choose a speciality that has better hours if your worried. Family practice, dermatology, or others. Ik alot of women who worry about family and being a doctor, but its manageable. My mom doubts me all the time on my decisions because she worries, and i think thats all it is. I think you should keep going.