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I'm just about to start PT school so I don't have any first-hand experience, but here's how I think about my future career financially. Depending on where you live and what your specialty is, you'll most likely be earning between 60,000-80,000 dollars per year, give or take. The financial quality of your life [after taxes] is extremely variable and depends on the person, cost of living, student loans, having a spouse/children, etc.
For example, I'll be graduating from PT school in 3 years with virtually no debt and most likely/hopefully getting a job in a state with lower tax rates. I intend on getting married eventually, but I do not want, nor have I ever, wanted children. Being a woman especially, this will greatly decrease my future expenses as I'm sure I will marry someone who has a career (and therefore, income) as well. I'm very interested in investing and financial planning, so I presume to get into that when I'm employed as well.
Compare my situation with a DPT grad with a stay-at-home wife and three children, considerable student loans and a mortgage living in area with a higher cost of living. The differences between him and me with regards to usable [expendable] income will likely be substantial.
I don't know if this has been helpful or not but maybe gave you a better understanding of your question?
For example, I'll be graduating from PT school in 3 years with virtually no debt and most likely/hopefully getting a job in a state with lower tax rates. I intend on getting married eventually, but I do not want, nor have I ever, wanted children. Being a woman especially, this will greatly decrease my future expenses as I'm sure I will marry someone who has a career (and therefore, income) as well. I'm very interested in investing and financial planning, so I presume to get into that when I'm employed as well.
Compare my situation with a DPT grad with a stay-at-home wife and three children, considerable student loans and a mortgage living in area with a higher cost of living. The differences between him and me with regards to usable [expendable] income will likely be substantial.
I don't know if this has been helpful or not but maybe gave you a better understanding of your question?
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At the risk of sounding harsh(which this may be), I would tone down the "I always wanted to be some type of doctor talk." There has been, will be, and until the end of time will be rancor about who is and isn't a "real doctor". I would concentrate on being the best Physical Therapist you can be, should that be the path you ultimately decide to embark upon. You would ultimately receive your clinical doctorate of Physical Therapy(as you know), but that title has very little to do with one's skill set or patient care. Those factors will be ultimately be highlighted by your ability to serve as a leader, researchers, and teacher of evidence-based material hopefully learned through a rigorous DPT program.
Now, as it relates to the type of salary you can expect, that number is contingent on a number of factors. They include, yet are not relegated to, location, experience, settings, hours worked, etc. I have been told that depending on setting and geography, new grads can expect 55K-80K. I also have been told that with experience, one can make upwards of 100K+, also contingent on geography and setting. So depending on who you are and what you value, those numbers typically represent a "decent" living, provided that the average household in this country makes about 50-60K(husband and wife combined).
In any event, I wish you the very best as you embark on what hopes to be a successful graduate and professional career!
Now, as it relates to the type of salary you can expect, that number is contingent on a number of factors. They include, yet are not relegated to, location, experience, settings, hours worked, etc. I have been told that depending on setting and geography, new grads can expect 55K-80K. I also have been told that with experience, one can make upwards of 100K+, also contingent on geography and setting. So depending on who you are and what you value, those numbers typically represent a "decent" living, provided that the average household in this country makes about 50-60K(husband and wife combined).
In any event, I wish you the very best as you embark on what hopes to be a successful graduate and professional career!
Don't worry about not becoming an MD/DO. People change their minds all the time. If your heart is in it (PT), then you have chosen what's best for you!
As far as making a "good" living, it depends on how you define 'good'. That being said, it is my opinion that indeed you can live quite well. Even with 0 experience you can earn well as a new grad. It is not uncommon for grads to pull 75+K (depending on setting) in rural areas due to low supply. However, you need to be wary. Some may work you like a dog, no mentoring, or have less than stellar billing/practice issues. Nonetheless, there are numerous legit businesses out there that offer great salaries/environments. If it is a MUA than you may be eligible for additional government funds to pay off student loans. Don't forget that after gaining experience you can open your own practice and make a freaking boatload if you are savvy.
Do keep in mind it is not necessarily how much you make but how you spend what you earn.
As far as making a "good" living, it depends on how you define 'good'. That being said, it is my opinion that indeed you can live quite well. Even with 0 experience you can earn well as a new grad. It is not uncommon for grads to pull 75+K (depending on setting) in rural areas due to low supply. However, you need to be wary. Some may work you like a dog, no mentoring, or have less than stellar billing/practice issues. Nonetheless, there are numerous legit businesses out there that offer great salaries/environments. If it is a MUA than you may be eligible for additional government funds to pay off student loans. Don't forget that after gaining experience you can open your own practice and make a freaking boatload if you are savvy.
Do keep in mind it is not necessarily how much you make but how you spend what you earn.
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This is a very subjective issue. What makes for a "good" salary varies so much, and I won't be redundant by mentioning some of those factors that others have pointed out.
I am 28 now, and I used to have a job where I made in the lower 30,000s (before taxes). Despite this, I never was stressed about money and was able to save a sizeable percentage of my salary. It all depends on the individual. Considering how I had no trouble with that salary, I'm not at all worried about not having a good living as a PT.
I am 28 now, and I used to have a job where I made in the lower 30,000s (before taxes). Despite this, I never was stressed about money and was able to save a sizeable percentage of my salary. It all depends on the individual. Considering how I had no trouble with that salary, I'm not at all worried about not having a good living as a PT.
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also realize that med school is much more costly and residents really cant even pay of their loans until theyre done residency. that said, when you take a physicians salary and subtract loan payments...are they really making that much? also factor in lifestyle, on call, insurance, stress levels, etc. its for the birds if you ask me. unless youre a surgeon or bigtime specialist, physicians arent really raking it in anyway. neither are PTs, but that said, money shouldnt be the final say in your decision, in this case anyway.
I think you may have answered your question here. Yes, you can make a decent living in a rural area as a physical therapist. I don't think you'll be able to make the 100k point, but in a rural area, why would you need to do so?
Also, TheOx777 is right. I would not declare yourself as a doctor, especially because there is a lot of... tension right now concerning the title "doctor" and who really "deserves" the title. As mentioned in Ox's post, do your best to be a great Physical Therapist because first and foremost, that is what you are before anything else.
How is it a mistake when you'll being doing something you're passionate about?
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Well put goyo! I am not saying that a person who earns their Doctorate in anything(I don't care if it's in video game playing) has not earned that right to be called "Doctor Pac-Man" OR Dr. "xyz"! We will have earned the title of "Doctor" once matriculating through our respective DPT programs. Unfortunately I got the sense that OP wanted to play "MD/DO", and that will not bode well. Honestly, I wish the DPT was just a PhD. with an added 1-2 years of research experience and then one could get licensed. This way we would have the much needed clinical exposure, but we would be a research/academic based Doctorate versus a clinical Doctorate!
I wholeheartedly agree with you. A PhD doctorate would have been a great idea instead of the DPT clinical doctorate. The research exposure during our education would greatly benefit the field. However, the financial aspects of doing this, well, occludes it from being realized.The OP should realize the irrelevancy of being called a Dr. So-and-so. It's just a title (does not say anything about your capacity as such)--an awesome title to have, but a title nonetheless. Of course, it carries great meaning for physicians.
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As a practicing PT, I disagree with taking the PhD route. I received plenty of exposure to research in my DPT program, both through classes and a research project that encompassed almost two of the three years of graduate school. I use evidence every day in practice and stay current with literature (almost obsessively).
I would rather see this progression: undergraduate degree-->DPT-->residency--> fellowship. There is a strong need for more residency and fellowship opportunities in all areas, I will admit. However, I still feel the above route is best for practicing clinicians and if you have the desire for academia, pursue a PhD or ScD/DsC.
Just my two cents.
I would rather see this progression: undergraduate degree-->DPT-->residency--> fellowship. There is a strong need for more residency and fellowship opportunities in all areas, I will admit. However, I still feel the above route is best for practicing clinicians and if you have the desire for academia, pursue a PhD or ScD/DsC.
Just my two cents.
Sheldon. I completely agree with you! I have a PhD and it is an entirely different animal than a clinical degree, and just adding 1-2 years on will not get you there. A PhD is 3-5 years of mentored and independent research, with a year or so of courses. The entry-level PT curriculum comes no where near the level of research to complete independent PhD level research; you would need another 3-5 years.
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I agree..
I have a DPT, but would love to see greater requirements for the profession such as:
-required board certification (i.e. OCS, GCS, etc) in at least one area
-implementation of much more many therapy into base curriculum AND make residencies or manual therapy certification mandatory
A PhD and improved clinical practice do not necessarily go hand in hand. Better treatment for the patient is the real issue, and this requires greater clinical training and practice (but research is a component of this). Improved clinical practice in physical therapy is a whole other ballgame vs. formal education, or university training (book work). A DPT is a step up, but with any clinical profession, it takes experience, applying oneself, and additional training (unfortunately it is not required in PT), a la medical residency.
You do not need a PhD to be exposed to and learn about research, my school had a large research component to the curriculum (I did a study on 80 subjects, went through the IRB, did a literature review, presented the results of the study, etc.) Also had many research specific classes, and a research component to all classes. It is not even close to a PhD level from that perspective but still there and beneficial. My study took about 6 months to complete after seriously focusing on it, many many hours spent.
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While my premise for the PhD route may not be well thought out and ill-advised, I proposed it so that we could ultimately avoid the "politics" of what it means to be a "Doctor" of anything in the clinical arena besides being a medical doctor. I am fully aware that time in the clinic cannot be replaced with mentored research experience and vice versa. I am also aware that many PhD programs(even in the heaviest sciences) have a great deal of didactic coursework to them aside from research. Only reason I know is because I have looked into the possibility of getting my PhD in Neuroscience or Cell Biology/ Human Physiology post-DPT. I certainly defer my lack of PhD knowledge to someone who has already undertaken it such as PTisFun has. Let's say we added 3 years thus making it a 5-6 year process which is on par with the typical PhD route, I concede this would not be as attractive to incoming matriculants as the typical DPT route.
In hindsight, it sounded better in my mind! Most things often do, but I also know that besides skilled clinicians the Rehabilitation Science community needs to ready the next generation of applied researchers. That will, in my opinion, always be the backbone of what we do in the clinical arena. It also shows the general public that we are a profession steeped in evidence based practice akin to other healthcare providers, but also unlike other professions out there who are not as committed to EBP.
In hindsight, it sounded better in my mind! Most things often do
, but I also know that besides skilled clinicians the Rehabilitation Science community needs to ready the next generation of applied researchers. That will, in my opinion, always be the backbone of what we do in the clinical arena. It also shows the general public that we are a profession steeped in evidence based practice akin to other healthcare providers, but also unlike other professions out there who are not as committed to EBP.
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I guess it depends. I have heard from a 3rd year student who says that the starting salaries she has seen have ranged from $45,000 to $61,000. Of course, the ranges vary geographically.
How good of a living you can have depends on how big your list of "wants" is.
How good of a living you can have depends on how big your list of "wants" is.
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After practicing for a year now, I can honestly say that the pay was not what I anticipated. In fact, I am largely disappointed. Don't get me wrong. I LOVE being a physical therapist and it IS my passion, but I feel as if the lifestyle I wish to live can not be supported on $60,000 a year (Before $13,000 worth in taxes and benefits are taken out). And that's in Mississippi! Couple that with student loans and various other monthly payments. Just know that it's not a career where you can expect to live high on the hog. You have to manage your money wisely and put yourself in positions to make more through continuing education or finding regions with a greater need for therapists. For instance, the "Delta" in Mississippi has a significant need for physical therapists. I know of therapists that are paid upwards of $80 to $100K to work in these rural and extremely under-served areas. But making that kind of money comes with a sacrifice.
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Travel/contract are probably going to be increasingly popular among new grad PT's and rightly so. Some ideas..
- buy a home after graduation due to the great deals, save money this way vs paying rent every month. There's all kinds of places to buy for very cheap that could be used as living/storage and/or declarement for permanent address with travel jobs.
- use parents home as permanent address for travel jobs, make a ton of money and pay student loans down/off and get to travel. At the same time, these jobs are not necessarily the highest quality or the best situations.
- buy a home after graduation due to the great deals, save money this way vs paying rent every month. There's all kinds of places to buy for very cheap that could be used as living/storage and/or declarement for permanent address with travel jobs.
- use parents home as permanent address for travel jobs, make a ton of money and pay student loans down/off and get to travel. At the same time, these jobs are not necessarily the highest quality or the best situations.
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http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#00-0000
$44,410 is the average American salary for all occupations according to the above source (May 2010). I know these figures vary from source to source, but this is probably within the general "ballpark" of the real value.
The way I see it, people can struggle financially at widely ranging incomes based on their expenditures, debt, lifestyle, family obligations, etc. You could be making double the typical PT salary and be struggling financially if you are not managing your finances well. So long as you prioritize your finances though, people can life comfortably on a much lower salary than the $60-80k range that PTs earn (I know it can potentially be higher than this too). Keep in mind that many millions and millions of individuals make less than PTs. There's always the school debt issue to consider of course, but having a starting salary that could be as much as $20k+ greater than the average American income should make this more than manageable.
Basically, if you want to be driving sports cars and live in a mansion, PT probably isn't the career for you. Do you really need more than a "comfortable enough" salary and a career you LOVE though?
Anyway, that's how I see the income issue. I felt comfortable making barely over $32k in a full-time position before I made the decision to pursue PT. It's true I didn't have debt, kids, or a car payment to make, but I think it's good to be able to live below your means and question just how much spending you need to feel comfortable and happy in your life.
$44,410 is the average American salary for all occupations according to the above source (May 2010). I know these figures vary from source to source, but this is probably within the general "ballpark" of the real value.
The way I see it, people can struggle financially at widely ranging incomes based on their expenditures, debt, lifestyle, family obligations, etc. You could be making double the typical PT salary and be struggling financially if you are not managing your finances well. So long as you prioritize your finances though, people can life comfortably on a much lower salary than the $60-80k range that PTs earn (I know it can potentially be higher than this too). Keep in mind that many millions and millions of individuals make less than PTs. There's always the school debt issue to consider of course, but having a starting salary that could be as much as $20k+ greater than the average American income should make this more than manageable.
Basically, if you want to be driving sports cars and live in a mansion, PT probably isn't the career for you. Do you really need more than a "comfortable enough" salary and a career you LOVE though?
Anyway, that's how I see the income issue. I felt comfortable making barely over $32k in a full-time position before I made the decision to pursue PT. It's true I didn't have debt, kids, or a car payment to make, but I think it's good to be able to live below your means and question just how much spending you need to feel comfortable and happy in your life.
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Wish you the best as you apply, think hard about where you came from... GL
message me if you want advice, I applied to very similar schools.
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Thanks, hefe!
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You don't know what you're talking about...
You feel it's sad that the PT profession "hands out" doctorates to people who got C's in the sciences? Funny, I think you're talking about the chiropractic profession.
I would like to see you make it through the curriculum as it is today.
im sorry if you misunderstood what i was saying... what i meant was that GETTING INTO pt school is quite easy when compared to med school or pharm school or dental school. I personally know people who have gotten C's in undergraduate general chemistry and general physics and have made it into pt school. All I'm saying is that if it was harder to get into pt school and if the pt schools demanded academic excellence like other health profession graduate programs do during the APPLICATION process, maybe pt school would gain the same reputation as medical school and the doctorate you eventually earn would hold more weight and therefore pt's would get paid more. thats all im saying and im sorry if you took it the wrong way. also, my main point was the fact that you CAN make a great living as a pt if you work hard. I was attempting to just give a possible explanation for why pt's are paid less than other health care professionals. I do agree that once you ARE IN pt school the demands are high and unlike chiropractic school are really tough. I decided to pursue PT for that reason along with the fact that it is truly my passion. My point was to offer support to the people worried if they will make a good living as a PT. Im not sure what state you are from, but I am from California and I have spoken with literally hundreds of people including top PT's and what I'm saying is correct and validated, at least here it is. My post was intended to be positive and let people know that you can have a great life as a PT.
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I guess many of you don't live by urban areas. In NYC, browsing through Indeed.com, the average salary of DPTs is around 100k. Jobs claiming to accept "new grads" are putting down 60 an hour while another job just on the first page offered up to 85 dollars an hour in Brooklyn treating children. The Physical Therapist position reminds of me of the MT profession concerning how varied the salary is. Like PT/DPTS, most MTs complain about not being compensated well enough when MTs (a BS degree) are being offering 70/85k in the NY/NJ area. But anyway, 60k in a rural area will get one very far and they should live more than comfortabely.
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Good post, Svetlana!
The salary in urban areas is always higher because cost of living is higher- you wouldn't find a 100k job in the middle of a cornfield!
I come from a rural area and I can attest to the PTs I know, they are not making huge bucks "serving the underprivileged" so I'd hate to see what is actually considered the rural areas where this happens In any case-- salaries are all over the place-- it depends on where you work, where you live, what you're doing and how much of it. It's bogus for any of us to even begin to guess what we'll make when we graduate because there are way too many variables involved.
So, just cross your fingers that you get a good job in a fairly reasonable place to live and then manage your money the best way you can!
Wow! PTs are making that much in NY? Thats good to hear! Like has already been stated, I think one can make a good living working as a PT. Everyone says don't worry about money, if you really love what you do it shouldn't matter. Well, this is true, one still needs to be realistic. When you look at the time and investment involved in becoming a DPT (about 8 years and around $150,000 assuming instate tuition for under grad and grad school + living expenses); a salary of 70k is not very much at all. I even questioned if it was worth it in the long run and looked at and shadowed other professions that make way more money with relatively less schooling, but always came back to PT because I do truely LOVE it. One really has to weigh what is important to them in life and act on it.
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I was looking into business related fields pertaining to renewable energy, but was also looking very closely at going to PA school. However, like I said I figured out my passion was definitely in PT. There are a lot of careers out there with less schooling and way higher income, it all depends on what you want.
"I've always wanted to be a doctor of some sort"
You're not a doctor. At all. The PT doctorate isn't legitimate.
You don't take a series of statistical analysis courses like graduate students
You don't engage in orals like a graduate student
You don't complete a real thesis (and don't include that end of term research paper that we all presented to our mentor in the faculty--we all did that--that is not a graduate caliber thesis)
You don't teach lower level courses like a graduate student does
You don't go to PT school then "Advanced PT school" --say like the Aussies do with a "Masters in Manual therapy"
In short you do nothing a graduate student does. You go to PT school where they extended the internships to justify a "doctorate." The only ones who think you are doctors are yourselves. Everyone else, especially MDs just shake their heads.
But sure--get 130K in debt because you are really passionate about being a PT--that will die around year two at 1200-1400 a month.
Do goodie females who don't live in reality and beta males who act like them--the average PT
You're not a doctor. At all. The PT doctorate isn't legitimate.
You don't take a series of statistical analysis courses like graduate students
You don't engage in orals like a graduate student
You don't complete a real thesis (and don't include that end of term research paper that we all presented to our mentor in the faculty--we all did that--that is not a graduate caliber thesis)
You don't teach lower level courses like a graduate student does
You don't go to PT school then "Advanced PT school" --say like the Aussies do with a "Masters in Manual therapy"
In short you do nothing a graduate student does. You go to PT school where they extended the internships to justify a "doctorate." The only ones who think you are doctors are yourselves. Everyone else, especially MDs just shake their heads.
But sure--get 130K in debt because you are really passionate about being a PT--that will die around year two at 1200-1400 a month.
Do goodie females who don't live in reality and beta males who act like them--the average PT
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Another nearly 6 year old thread has been brought back from the dead. Fear the walking thread!
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Actually you do take statistical work. Much more than other health professional fields for examining data. You do engage in some orals as well. You do do evidence based projects.
Pharmacology, medical diseases mimicking pathologies appropriate for physical therapy, radiology, differential diagnosis, interventions tailored towards each population and coursework per setting, and structured intervention progressions instead of arbitrarily making things up upon graduation have all been implemented in the curriculum for practice patterns....as well as protocols that were developed throughout the years so new therapists don't rupture someone's new Acl graft upon graduating.
Science graduate students teach undergrad courses. Professional students study all the time to learn and practice content that is applied in the US healthcare system
Current practice acts and correct payment don't exist currently due to business interests from other providers. Medicare and the government are also unaware that therapists are working for them for free as well.....which means all other insurances do not follow suit and reimburse therapists directly for their work.
.....but yes, you're right the debt is a problem and people should find a different field if it's too much.
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^this is absolute nonsense coming from an obviously jaded person who isn't as familiar as they think they are with the current DPT curriculum. We do engage in orals (I have one this week actually), we do take a series of statistical analysis courses, we do a major project at the end that is presented to our peers and community that is heavily based in research, we have opportunity to engage in research that is published and we can teach lower level courses. After PT school, we can do residency programs, and we have autonomy that continues to grow.
We earn a doctorate. The only illegitimate doctorate is the one you print from your own computer. Another reason we should use that earned title is that we are trying to increase respect from physicians. I have spoken with physicians who say they did not realize how knowledgeable and effective PT is until they experienced it themselves. We are working to gain respect so when we say I am a doctor of physical therapy we are saying that we are experts who use research based best clinical practices that are effective and we are legitimate.
Chiros don't hesitate. Optometrists don't hesitate. We shouldn't hesitate. I don't care how many holier than thou folks want to shake their heads.
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I am 2 years out, making over $100,000 per year as a DPT. Asked to consult on many MSK conditions by the physicians in my group. Had privileges to order imaging. DPT training had a year of statistical work and there are current fellowships and residencies. It's all possible you just have to work hard and push for what you want
That’s awesome! In which state do you currently work? I’m trying to really push for the same and I know many PTs make close to 100k even new grads. Everything is possible and just like you said the PT profession is starting to grow so much that a lot of physicians are starting to hold PT at a much higher level.
Pharmacology etc etc as you mentioned. We studied the same. Everything you just mentioned we took as well. What do you think PT school was for 2 -2.5 years? It was one less semester of internship that was unnecessary.That's my point of how out of touch you are with your PT school at DPT vs MS vs BS. We also did research methods. All of you really think we didn't study that. Many of you think we never learned how to engage in differential diagnosis. Of course you don't know that--you were indoctrinated by the APTA at 22 years old.
And your thesis and "orals" is in no way the caliber of a real graduate student.
Oh by the way I was a TA in one of the programs for a bit---it's the same PT school. That's to the rocket scientist comment below about not understanding what a DPT program is.
