58 COMs

[2021Doctor]

Currently there are 58 COMs

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[MDMechEngr]

The 2024 residency match will be very interesting.

 

[Chads2]

The number in my head was in the 20’s and I looked back at the year that I matriculated. Indeed there were only 20-something at that time. Although I firmly believe that residency training > Med school in one’s development, this is alarming to me. Though perhaps the sheer number of DO’s will make the general public more aware of the degree.

 

[BuildingMyOwnLuck]

DOs will just replace the carrib grads mainly. However the matching will also get much harder for those in schools not highly ranked

 

[scoopdaboop]

DOs will just replace the carrib grads mainly. However the matching will also get much harder for those in schools not highly ranked

Especially no STEP 1 scored, matching as DO will be exponentially tougher now, and most people if not all, will be relegated to the areas with 40k population that just happens to have a FM residency near by. STEP 1 turning into P/F was a response by the MD physicians to the growing number of DO schools. You're going to grow the number of DO schools to overwhelm our residency applications? we gonna turn step 1 P/F and we can't bother considering your 240 as a DO vs our 220 MD because it's P/F now, so sucks for you.

 

[Goro]

Especially no STEP 1 scored, matching as DO will be exponentially tougher now, and most people if not all, will be relegated to the areas with 40k population that just happens to have a FM residency near by. STEP 1 turning into P/F was a response by the MD physicians to the growing number of DO schools. You're going to grow the number of DO schools to overwhelm our residency applications? we gonna turn step 1 P/F and we can't bother considering your 240 as a DO vs our 220 MD because it's P/F now, so sucks for you.

No, it was a response to the fact that Step I mania was making all med student literally sick.

The number of MD schools has increased by the same number in the last decade. It's not just DO ( I count 48 schools in the citation here: List of medical schools in the United States - Wikipedia


I do agree that the DO school expansion is a bad idea.

And for the zillionth time, PDs will simply use Step 2 as a screening tool.

 

[Cath Up]

I wish that were the case but sadly most DOs are ashamed of their initials and try to hide it anyway they can.

Just on social media alone I’ve I’d say 4/5 DOs in competitive specialties just write “Dr. John Doe” whereas nearly every MD is John Doe, MD

There was one who started neurosurg residency at 24 (skipped a grade and did a 7 year BS/DO. Imagine how much someone like that could do advocating for the field

"most"

Come on, let's not generalize tens of thousands of people based on some instagram bios.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

"most"

Come on, let's not generalize tens of thousands of people based on some instagram bios.

Just ignore @dartaniandoc , he just comes on these boards to talk down about DO’s since he goes to a low tier MD.. N=1, but I know many more DO’s that advertise that they are DO’s and patients actually seek them out because of it……

 

[Lawpy]

I wish that were the case but sadly most DOs are ashamed of their initials and try to hide it anyway they can.

Just on social media alone I’ve I’d say 4/5 DOs in competitive specialties just write “Dr. John Doe” whereas nearly every MD is John Doe, MD

There was one who started neurosurg residency at 24 (skipped a grade and did a 7 year BS/DO. Imagine how much someone like that could do advocating for the field

Lmao what? I've seen many, many DOs list themselves as John/Jane Doe, DO on social media, and these are some very established leaders at top places

 

[drducky.]

Cant wait for the number of DOs to outgrow MDs. Our kids will be asking “what’s a MD? Are they real doctors?”

 

[Cath Up]

P/F step was mostly pushed by top tier MD schools and hurts mid and low-tier (me) MD as much as it hurts DOs. At the same time, very few DOs were scoring high on step to begin with. I’d have to look at the data but I recall like fewer than 10 DOs score >260 in any given year and maybe ~100 score in the 240s. These students will probably still rock step 2 and shine in other areas like research

I should ignore but to address your stupidity using 2020 charting outcomes
Matched DO step 1 average 227.7 (s.d. = 15.4)
Matched MD step 1 234.0 (s.d. = 17.0)
Matched DO step 2 average 240.5 (s.d. = 13.4)
Matched MD step 2 average 246.9 (s.d. = 14.2)

Of course there's a difference (and I know the DO population is self selected) but do you see how those datasets overlap way more than you indicate?

If step 1 scores were a normal distribution you'd have at least 15-20% scoring 240 or above. 5,243 DOs took step 1 in the data set. 15% would be 786 students. I'm not sure it's a normal distribution but I am sure you are completely wrong. Do you just make stuff up?

Let's add up all the DOs in each specialty in the NRMP match (no ophtho or uro!) that scored from 251-260 and >260! Spoiler: you're provably wrong.

251-260:
Gas: 19
Child neuro: 0
Derm: 10
Radiology: 23
EM: 23
FM: 11
GS: 11
IM: 40
Med/peds: 0
Interv. Rads: 8
Nsg: 1
Neuro: 5
Obgyn: 7
Ortho: 31
ENT: 6
Path: 2
Peds: 4
PMR: 3
Plastics: 0
Psych: 3
Vascular surgery: 0
---------
Total 251-260: 207

260+:
Gas: 1
Child neuro: 0
Derm: 3
Radiology: 2
EM: 5
FM: 0
GS: 4
IM: 5
Med/peds: 0
Interv. Rads: 4
Nsg: 1
Neuro: 5
Obgyn: 1
Ortho: 4
ENT: 1
Path: 1
Peds: 1
PMR: 0
Plastics: 0
Psych: 0
Vascular surgery: 1
------
Total 260+: 39

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Cant wait for the number of DOs to outgrow MDs. Our kids will be asking “what’s a MD? Are they real doctors?”

Some of the MD’s who come on these boards to talk down about DO’s have some serious issues, like wth cares… I haven’t met an actual person on my rotations that cares about the MD/DO thing

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Lol okay…. I see tons of sponsored IG posts especially from DO derms, ENTs and whatnot all hiding their credentials

Doctorjesss (peds)
Drbrianfiani (neurosurg)
Doctor.sina_ (ENT)
Drrickysayal (ENT)
harmanbh_ (from medbros YT channel, his brother goes to yale and sister goes to mayo) he deletes people's comments when they ask him about anything DO related. He even got Medschoolinsiders (the huge YT channel) to disable comments on the video they collabbed on

I can add more as I come across them.

Dude that’s like 4-5 ppl out of thousands hahahaah way to self select… I am sure there are 4-5 MD’s I can find right now that only go by Dr so and so on social media, doesn’t mean jack or that they don’t like the letters behind thier name.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I should ignore but to address your stupidity using 2020 charting outcomes
Matched DO step 1 average 227.7 (s.d. = 15.4)
Matched MD step 1 234.0 (s.d. = 17.0)
Matched DO step 2 average 240.5 (s.d. = 13.4)
Matched MD step 2 average 246.9 (s.d. = 14.2)

Of course there's a difference (and I know the DO population is self selected) but do you see how those datasets overlap way more than you indicate?

If step 1 scores were a normal distribution you'd have at least 15-20% scoring 240 or above. 5,243 DOs took step 1 in the data set. 15% would be 786 students. I'm sure it's not a perfectly normal distribution but I am sure you are completely wrong. Do you just make stuff up?

Let's add up all the DOs in each specialty in the NRMP match (no ophtho or uro!) that scored from 251-260 and >260! Spoiler: you're provably wrong.

251-260:
Gas: 19
Child neuro: 0
Derm: 10
Radiology: 23
EM: 23
FM: 11
GS: 11
IM: 40
Med/peds: 0
Interv. Rads: 8
Nsg: 1
Neuro: 5
Obgyn: 7
Ortho: 31
ENT: 6
Path: 2
Peds: 4
PMR: 3
Plastics: 0
Psych: 3
Vascular surgery: 0
---------
Total 251-260: 207

260+:
Gas: 1
Child neuro: 0
Derm: 3
Radiology: 2
EM: 5
FM: 0
GS: 4
IM: 5
Med/peds: 0
Interv. Rads: 4
Nsg: 1
Neuro: 5
Obgyn: 1
Ortho: 4
ENT: 1
Path: 1
Peds: 1
PMR: 0
Plastics: 0
Psych: 0
Vascular surgery: 1
------
Total 260+: 39

Lol he said only like ten people scored >250 out of DO schools hahahah

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Lol he said only like ten people scored >250 out of DO schools hahahah

Actually the step 1 average for USMD for all applicants not just matched is 231..

 

[Cath Up]

Gently stroking one's ego due to their cohort having slightly higher numbers than another cohort (all well above what either cohort was scoring 15 years ago with no discernible impact on anything other than the construct that is The Match) is one thing, but doing so with pretend data is even more pathetic.

 

[Cath Up]

Actually the step 1 average for USMD for all applicants not just matched is 231..

Yes I opted to look at matched applicants for that, arbitrarily.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Gently stroking one's ego due to their cohort having slightly higher numbers than another cohort (all well above what either cohort was scoring 15 years ago with no discernible impact on anything other than the construct that is The Match) is one thing, but doing so with pretend data is even more pathetic.

Gently stroking one's ego due to their cohort having slightly higher numbers than another cohort (all well above what either cohort was scoring 15 years ago with no discernible impact on anything other than the construct that is The Match) is one thing, but doing so with pretend data is even more pathetic.

Whatever man just let people be, the real hard world will teach them eventually….

 

[Neopolymath]

Even if you believed that the average DO is mediocre, saying 100 of the thousands that take step 1 each year got a 240 is comical. Like holy smokes, that's not some wonder score by any means. Talk about an ironically braindead post.

 

[Captain_Falcon]

I should ignore but to address your stupidity using 2020 charting outcomes
Matched DO step 1 average 227.7 (s.d. = 15.4)
Matched MD step 1 234.0 (s.d. = 17.0)
Matched DO step 2 average 240.5 (s.d. = 13.4)
Matched MD step 2 average 246.9 (s.d. = 14.2)

Of course there's a difference (and I know the DO population is self selected) but do you see how those datasets overlap way more than you indicate?

I agree with the overarching point but the % of MD students that take the Steps is essentially 100%, whereas the % of DO students that take the Steps I'd significantly lower. I would wager that the actual Step scores for DO students would be significantly lower if they were all required to take it. Im open to seeing data on this, but I imagine DO schools only allow/encourage their top students to take Step

 

[calivianya]

I agree with the overarching point but the % of MD students that take the Steps is essentially 100%, whereas the % of DO students that take the Steps I'd significantly lower. I would wager that the actual Step scores for DO students would be significantly lower if they were all required to take it. Im open to seeing data on this, but I imagine DO schools only allow/encourage their top students to take Step

I agree that the DO step 1 average would be lower if all DOs took it, but I think it‘s all due to self-selection. At my school, all that you had to do to qualify to sit for boards was pass a crappy comsae with a 450 or above, and have completed all classes and stayed in good standing, and then you were qualified to register for both step and comlex. So anyone who qualified for one, qualified for both, and I’ve never heard of anyone being advised not to take the step exams.

I’d actually be interested to see if there are any DO schools that restrict any students’ ability to take step 1 while allowing them to take level 1. You would think that wouldn’t be a thing at all since no DO is required to take any of the step exams for licensure.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I agree that the DO step 1 average would be lower if all DOs took it, but I think it‘s all due to self-selection. At my school, all that you had to do to qualify to sit for boards was pass a crappy comsae with a 450 or above, and have completed all classes and stayed in good standing, and then you were qualified to register for both step and comlex. So anyone who qualified for one, qualified for both, and I’ve never heard of anyone being advised not to take the step exams.

I’d actually be interested to see if there are any DO schools that restrict any students’ ability to take step 1 while allowing them to take level 1. You would think that wouldn’t be a thing at all since no DO is required to take any of the step exams for licensure.

Works the same way at my school. Sure there is self selection on who takes it but I know of people who could do well on step or atleast close to average but only take comlex because they want to do family Med or peds. So it can go both ways…

 

[calvinhobbes]

Where is jkdoctor when you need him to say “Whoot whoot!!”

 

[calivianya]

Works the same way at my school. Sure there is self selection on who takes it but I know of people who could do well on step or atleast close to average but only take comlex because they want to do family Med or peds. So it can go both ways…

Yep! Some really smart people in my class wanting to do basic things don’t take step - and also the military people, since they’re guaranteed a residency somewhere. I don’t know a single military person who’s taking any of the step exams.

 

[Cath Up]

I agree with the overarching point but the % of MD students that take the Steps is essentially 100%, whereas the % of DO students that take the Steps I'd significantly lower. I would wager that the actual Step scores for DO students would be significantly lower if they were all required to take it. Im open to seeing data on this, but I imagine DO schools only allow/encourage their top students to take Step

That's why I said they're self selected.

 

[Cath Up]

Where is jkdoctor when you need him to say “Whoot whoot!!”

He's the guy that made the thread.

 

[Neopolymath]

My reasoning behind believing the average would not drop off a cliff if all DO students had to take it is this: They would know day 1 it's coming and can't back out. Everyone performs far better in that scenario. If you can be chicken **** and waffle on taking it of course you would do worse (or not take at all). The whole career path is based on rising to the occasion and people think they couldn't do that to score average on a multiple choice exam you study for for 2 years? No way...

 

[Captain_Falcon]

That's why I said they're self selected.

Totally missed that, my bad

 

[Captain_Falcon]

My reasoning behind believing the average would not drop off a cliff if all DO students had to take it is this: They would know day 1 it's coming and can't back out. Everyone performs far better in that scenario. If you can be chicken **** and waffle on taking it of course you would do worse (or not take at all). The whole career path is based on rising to the occasion and people think they couldn't do that to score average on a multiple choice exam you study for for 2 years? No way...

In the same breath though, all MD studentd historically knew that it was coming too and there are still half of them that score below the average.

 

[Neopolymath]

In the same breath though, all MD studentd historically knew that it was coming too and there are still half of them that score below the average.

Sure. I'm referring to the average score as a cohort. Of course, not everyone can be average individually.

 

[drducky.]

My school had a very bad step 1 pass rate last year, but comlex was fine. Not sure if it was bad advising or a weak cohort. This year they will make us take an NBME exam and "comfortably pass" before they allow us to sit for step 1. Yet to learn what score will be required or which NBME exam. Shows you that the two exams are completely different and people can very well be caught off-guard if they don't prepare hard. I think it will get worse with the P/F change because students will get complacent. Failure is a very real possibility.

I don’t understand why though. It’s not like you have to report step1. What do students have to lose from taking student?

 

[DarkHorizon]

Well, COCA went full ******. Never go full ******.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Let's add up all the DOs in each specialty in the NRMP match (no ophtho or uro!)

Uh… Uro and ophtho are their own match… I personally know a 250+ DO that matched MD Optho this cycle.

 

[Chads2]

Uh… Uro and ophtho are their own match… I personally know a 250+ DO that matched MD Optho this cycle.

that’s exactly what Cath Up is saying. The data is NRMP and this doesn’t include ophtho and uro

 

[Goro]

I agree with the overarching point but the % of MD students that take the Steps is essentially 100%, whereas the % of DO students that take the Steps I'd significantly lower. I would wager that the actual Step scores for DO students would be significantly lower if they were all required to take it. Im open to seeing data on this, but I imagine DO schools only allow/encourage their top students to take Step

2/3rds of my kids take Step I.

 

[drducky.]

I agree with the overarching point but the % of MD students that take the Steps is essentially 100%, whereas the % of DO students that take the Steps I'd significantly lower. I would wager that the actual Step scores for DO students would be significantly lower if they were all required to take it. Im open to seeing data on this, but I imagine DO schools only allow/encourage their top students to take Step

Part of the problem is that students don’t actively seek out how to prep. We have schools that keep trying to push combank and comquest down our throats that it’s no wonder DO students don’t do well on step1. Even the students on reddit mostly use garbage comlex resources for step1 and they’re probably more informed than your average DO student.

 

[Captain_Falcon]

2/3rds of my kids take Step I.

And for those that take it, are they generally the top 2/3 of the class?

 

[Schwifty]

Part of the problem is that students don’t actively seek out how to prep. We have schools that keep trying to push combank and comquest down our throats that it’s no wonder DO students don’t do well on step1. Even the students on reddit mostly use garbage comlex resources for step1 and they’re probably more informed than your average DO student.

I have no idea why they push conquest so hard. My class tried so hard to get our school to buy us uworld but they just wouldn’t budge and I have no idea why.

 

[Schwifty]

And for those that take it, are they generally the top 2/3 of the class?

Most likely yes. Most top students take step and bottom dont. But I haven’t ever heard of my school advising a student of not taking step

 

[DOVinciRobot]

I have no idea why they push conquest so hard. My class tried so hard to get our school to buy us uworld but they just wouldn’t budge and I have no idea why.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Especially no STEP 1 scored, matching as DO will be exponentially tougher now, and most people if not all, will be relegated to the areas with 40k population that just happens to have a FM residency near by. STEP 1 turning into P/F was a response by the MD physicians to the growing number of DO schools. You're going to grow the number of DO schools to overwhelm our residency applications? we gonna turn step 1 P/F and we can't bother considering your 240 as a DO vs our 220 MD because it's P/F now, so sucks for you.

Pretty sure it was top MD programs being upset that they were losing out to low or mid tier MDs who hustled more than them. Sincerely doubt that the existence of DOs even crossed their minds.

 

[Goro]

And for those that take it, are they generally the top 2/3 of the class?

Pretty much.

 

[Sardonix]

It's cute when neckbeards come along, regardless if they are either MD or DO, and try to start a pissing match about who's degree does what.

In practice NO ONE cares.

 

[Lawpy]

It's cute when neckbeards come along, regardless if they are either MD or DO, and try to start a pissing match about who's degree does what.

In practice NO ONE cares.

Yeah but you need to match before you can practice

 

[Lawpy]

Pretty sure it was top MD programs being upset that they were losing out to low or mid tier MDs who hustled more than them. Sincerely doubt that the existence of DOs even crossed their minds.

Were they losing out?

 

[Kerosene Hat]

Until today, I had this mental image of the number of DO schools being in the 30s, since that's what it was when I was just starting to think about applying to medical schools back in 2013 or so. I guess I've become the equivalent of the "1980 was 20 years ago" guy.

 

[2021Doctor]

Rocky Vista, which has schools in Colorado and Utah, announced in May that the Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation had approved its plan to build a Billings campus. The application by Touro, which has campuses across the country, for a facility in Great Falls is set to be taken up at the commission’s August meeting.

Two new medical schools are opening in Montana. But does the western U.S. really need them?

By Andrea Halland, Kaiser Health News Opening two new medical schools in Montana would stretch and possibly overwhelm the state’s physicians who provide the clinical training that students need to become doctors, according to leaders of a University of Washington medical school program that...

coloradosun.com

 

[Ho0v-man]

Were they losing out?

No matter the tier, a 225 step 1 wasn’t going to beat a low tier USMD with a 250+ with an otherwise equivalent app at the same program.

 

[Lawpy]

No matter the tier, a 225 step 1 wasn’t going to beat a low tier USMD with a 250+ with an otherwise equivalent app at the same program.

Really? What program are we talking?

Also otherwise equivalent app is next to impossible

 

[Ho0v-man]

Really? What program are we talking?

Also otherwise equivalent app is next to impossible

Whatever program. Whatever specialty.

Ie Top MD going for derm vs a low tier with that score difference is going to get owned.