2021 CPJE results - 44% failure rate

[KCAB]

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[steveysmith54]

Wow… thank you for posting.
Either the new grads suck or the test has gotten Hella harder…

 

[steveysmith54]

This is what happens when in anticipation of provider status the schools decided to teach digital rectal exam/prostate exam instead of pharmacology and therapeutics.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Shew

 

[VA77]

This is what happens when in anticipation of provider status the schools decided to teach digital recital exam/prostate exam instead of pharmacology and therapeutics.

This!
Schools are teaching DVT ultrasound doppler, otoscope, and a host of other crap outside out domain. Yeah we could get provider status and do some of these things but this is out on the fringe.

Back to the OP, does anybody really believe applicants/students have a better background than at least 15 years ago? I don't and the numbers prove it all across the nation not just CA. That's why I love debating the academic elite and clinical preceptor that they are educating the best of the best.

 

[confettiflyer]

So you’re telling me the rest of the nation should copy California for its licensing exam?

I’ll vote for that one.

 

[MatCauthon]

I guess 66k annually in tuition and fees at USC (and likely another 20-30k annually for cost of living) can only guarantee a 71% pass rate.

 

[JustFillIt]

Wow… thank you for posting.
Either the new grads suck or the test has gotten Hella harder…

Let’s just clarify this right now - understand that this is my speculative opinion - but the new grads suck and were accepted to school to ensure the school educational staff kept their jobs

 

[lord999]

I am rather surprised that the schools have not gotten together and demand that the BOP make the CPJE easier like how they got the BOP to get rid of 1,500 intern hours because “it was causing their students unnecessary stress due lack of intern sites”. Obviously the record number of pharmacy schools wasn’t a factor.

Because CAPhA under Johnson and CSHP under Strom Jr., two of the very few actual advocacy organizations for pharmacy though local in scope, have always opposed low standards due to pharmacy's trust and visibility (with the side effect of a restraint of trade). There was an argument at the NABP level to raise standards in the late 90s, we know how that went.

I should find a copy of old NABPLEX and post it. It's not necessarily outrageous, but it was not easy. The main criticism is that the old exam had trivia fetishes (methyldopa, theophylline, phenytoin) that were never practically encountered in any usual practice even back then. The methyldopa was always in a pregnancy, the theophylline was in a non-asthma context for epilepsy and neurology, and phenytoin as an alternative to dantrolene. It also literally asked you the size, shape, and color of certain meds (What is the color, shape, and side of Coumadin 2 mg? and An example of a scored tablet that should not be cut is? (Sinemet CR)) though when it was retired, many of the practical boards still kept it.

 

[lord999]

This!
Schools are teaching DVT ultrasound doppler, otoscope, and a host of other crap outside out domain. Yeah we could get provider status and do some of these things but this is out on the fringe.

Back to the OP, does anybody really believe applicants/students have a better background than at least 15 years ago? I don't and the numbers prove it all across the nation not just CA. That's why I love debating the academic elite and clinical preceptor that they are educating the best of the best.

This one would argue the technicality that the "best of the best" is dependent on the academic gene pool. This one would put forward that No Child Left Behind found its way into professional education. When confronted with the possibility of using the absolute crap pharmacy AI available today, this one prefers treatment by algorithm over these "humans"(?). This one believes that bleach would help improve that gene pool.

The two skills I miss most in new pharmacists are:
1. Inability to cook anything - There was an expectation that pharmacists could compound and work manufacturing equipment (and yes, our physical pharmacy classes (16 semester hours) did actually get us trained in both compounding and the use of the basic machinery found in a plant). You don't have to be Paracelsus, but at least you can manage 8 hours of sterile compounding without complaining that your hands hurt or lapses in technique.

2. Inability to communicate appropriately (This is academia's fault) - Remember how the Dr wannabes were taken aside and chewed out for having an attitude toward patients? I remember? The point of the ambulatory/community pharmacist is to translate the arcane instructions from the provider to the patient and try to develop rapport. We've taking steps backwards in this respect. It makes it worse with academics leading by bad example toward students. This is something I personally chew out clinical pharmacy specialists if I happen to observe it on my way.

 

[mentos]

I guess 66k annually in tuition and fees at USC (and likely another 20-30k annually for cost of living) can only guarantee a 71% pass rate.

Jesus you can buy a house for that much. Why would anyone this much for pharmacy school?

 

[RxPreceptor]

This is what happens when in anticipation of provider status the schools decided to teach digital recital exam/prostate exam instead of pharmacology and therapeutics.

I can not agree with you more on this…
We are doctors of drugs, hence we should focus mainly on the actual drugs, therapeutic classes and not try pretending we are doctors of diagnosing and differentiating diseases. Sounds like a wake up call for pharmacy professors to get theirs heads out their butts.

Lexicomp, micromedex, clinical pharmacology, and Goodman and gilmans were my best pharmacy professors

 

[confettiflyer]

Jesus you can buy a house for that much. Why would anyone this much for pharmacy school?

At that point, the tuition is irrelevant. The essential question becomes, “Would you accept a voluntary extra 10% tax on your income x 20 years in exchange for a PharmD and a job that pays $175k-$225k/yr?”

If I’m a college grad making $50k/yr at some entry level bio tech job with a realistic income cap of maybe $75-$80k, that answer is a no-brainer.

 

[VA77]

It would make sense if you could pull down those kinda numbers but isn't avg annual pay around 120k and thats if you can get full time hours

 

[mentos]

At that point, the tuition is irrelevant. The essential question becomes, “Would you accept a voluntary extra 10% tax on your income x 20 years in exchange for a PharmD and a job that pays $175k-$225k/yr?”

If I’m a college grad making $50k/yr at some entry level bio tech job with a realistic income cap of maybe $75-$80k, that answer is a no-brainer.

How many new grads can get 175-225k?

 

[steveysmith54]

How many new grads can get 175-225k?

I can’t think of many in SoCal, maybe some Kaiser folks with OT, truly minority. More exception than the rule…

 

[confettiflyer]

Adjust the equation guys, not that hard.

I can only speak for my geographic location and area of practice.

 

[mentos]

There's only so many of those unicorn type positions available. I'm sure many USC grads end up at CVS with insane debt.

 

[randompharm]

At that point, the tuition is irrelevant. The essential question becomes, “Would you accept a voluntary extra 10% tax on your income x 20 years in exchange for a PharmD and a job that pays $175k-$225k/yr?”

If I’m a college grad making $50k/yr at some entry level bio tech job with a realistic income cap of maybe $75-$80k, that answer is a no-brainer.

Where are new grads getting 175k-225k? Lol

The new rates are 40ish to 50 per hour and ~32 hrs if they’re lucky, which is about 75-80k. Though in Cali it is higher but when you account for COL, it evens out.

Edit: just saw your comment above, that wouldn’t be new grad rate though and you’ve been doing it for a long time pre how bad it got (i’m guessing).

 

[randompharm]

How many new grads can get 175-225k?

0 lol. They’re lucky to get 80-90k.

 

[confettiflyer]

There's only so many of those unicorn type positions available. I'm sure many USC grads end up at CVS with insane debt.

Again, the debt total doesn’t matter in many cases. The question is whether an earnest pre-pharm hopeful making some nominal wage at any other job sees (let’s take @KCAB’s $60/hr RPh from the Biden 10k thread) the bargain as 4 years of school, 10% extra income tax x 20 years, to go to a $125k/yr salary. Net salary after 10% extra tax is more like $110k then. Sounds reasonable if you’re making $50k.

Obviously, there are a boatload of other ways to make $125k/yr+ without taking on debt and spending 4 years in opportunity cost purgatory, but let’s just assume people are picking jobs for their inherent “jobiness” and not looking at economic sensibility (ha…haha…hahahahah).

 

[steveysmith54]

I am rather surprised that the schools have not gotten together and demand that the BOP make the CPJE easier like how they got the BOP to get rid of 1,500 intern hours because “it was causing their students unnecessary stress due lack of intern sites”. Obviously the record number of pharmacy schools wasn’t a factor.

Good point. I thought it was ludicrous when they got rid of 600 hours of outside intern work requirement. The deans and professors can say all they want, but looking at these stats, west coast, Chapman, ca health, and Ketchum have no business being open, really doing a disservice to the profession by producing incompetent RPh.

 

[confettiflyer]

My gut says these sub-50% schools are going to spend like crazy on test prep and dedicate an inordinate amount of time teaching to the test…also useless.

 

[VA77]

My gut says these sub-50% schools are going to spend like crazy on test prep and dedicate an inordinate amount of time teaching to the test…also useless.

Yep. Goodman and Gilman has been replaced by RxPrep and HighYield

 

[mentos]

My gut says these sub-50% schools are going to spend like crazy on test prep and dedicate an inordinate amount of time teaching to the test…also useless.

Nah they don't care what happens to the students after they graduate. They have an endless amount of tuition coming in every year.

 

[steveysmith54]

Nah they don't care what happens to the students after they graduate. They have an endless amount of tuition coming in every year.

I would hope that the low scores would discourage students from attending some of these schools. Also, discourage pharmacists from agreeing to precept these underprepared students…But that’s wishful thinking.

Interestingly enough, despite UCSF being often mentioned as one of the top schools in the nation, they never produce high passing rates. I wonder why, if anyone has perspective on that, please share….

Again, I want to point out how awful Chapman did.

 

[sunnyandseventytwo]

Interestingly enough, despite UCSF being often mentioned as one of the top schools in the nation, they never produce high passing rates. I wonder why, if anyone has perspective on that, please share….

This is University of California wide, not specific to UCSF: Undergraduate degrees prepare you for grad school and graduate/professional school prepares you for post grad residency/fellowship/research.

My experience with UCSF: They produce some of the best pharmacy residents and some of the worst pharmacists. They are above teaching anything that would help you pass a test or provide real world experience.

Yeah, that's right...I didn't get into UCSF. But I did pass the California boards (on the first attempt).

 

[mentos]

I would hope that the low scores would discourage students from attending some of these schools. Also, discourage pharmacists from agreeing to precept these underprepared students…But that’s wishful thinking.

Interestingly enough, despite UCSF being often mentioned as one of the top schools in the nation, they never produce high passing rates. I wonder why, if anyone has perspective on that, please share….

Again, I want to point out how awful Chapman did.

Just shows that rankings mean nothing for pharmacy schools.

 

[confettiflyer]

Nah they don't care what happens to the students after they graduate. They have an endless amount of tuition coming in every year.

It’s just straight embarrassing.

 

[confettiflyer]

Interestingly enough, despite UCSF being often mentioned as one of the top schools in the nation, they never produce high passing rates. I wonder why, if anyone has perspective on that, please share….

UCSF and UCSD are my top two clinically performing groups of students. Like, typical cadence when I precepted onc and crit care was them taking full control halfway through the rotation and just needing a light touch to guide through the remainder.

I can’t really explain the pass rate for those two, I’m afraid. Recent conversion to a 3 year program/growing pains related to that? I have no idea.

 

[mentos]

It’s just straight embarrassing.

And yet thousands of students keep applying to these schools.

 

[grizzlesgrizzlies]

At that point, the tuition is irrelevant. The essential question becomes, “Would you accept a voluntary extra 10% tax on your income x 20 years in exchange for a PharmD and a job that pays $175k-$225k/yr?”

If I’m a college grad making $50k/yr at some entry level bio tech job with a realistic income cap of maybe $75-$80k, that answer is a no-brainer.

80k-120k is a more realistic pay band for new pharmDs with limited room for income growth. I've made essentially the same amount since 2010 in real dollars and noticeably less with inflation.

Someone with the entry level bio tech job can earn an MBA or another degree on the company's dime and can eventually reach that 175k-225k figure as well

 

[Rockinacoustic]

I still remember a fourth-year student from one of these newer schools who couldn't tell me what the symptoms of hypertension were. Needless to say, maybe 50% of their students would fail our APPEs and the school conveniently didn't renew our site contract...

 

[Rockinacoustic]

My gut says these sub-50% schools are going to spend like crazy on test prep and dedicate an inordinate amount of time teaching to the test…also useless.

I've had 4th years reference RxPrep on their presentations...

 

[moolman]

The real reason for the low passing rate is because cheating was stopped ever since the scandal a few years ago. You used to be able to get the test questions from a friend and the test would be the same for a few weeks. Now everyone takes it the same day, no more cheating.

 

[confettiflyer]

80k-120k is a more realistic pay band for new pharmDs with limited room for income growth. I've made essentially the same amount since 2010 in real dollars and noticeably less with inflation.

Someone with the entry level bio tech job can earn an MBA or another degree on the company's dime and can eventually reach that 175k-225k figure as well

Region and practice area?

$80k is less than what my seasoned techs make.

Is employer paid MBA for a lowly bioprocess tech still a thing?

 

[confettiflyer]

I've had 4th years reference RxPrep on their presentations...

That’s a marginal improvement over Wikipedia.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

Region and practice area?

$80k is less than what my seasoned techs make.

Is employer paid MBA for a lowly bioprocess tech still a thing?

You're the exception here. My initial salary was ~$84k (based on 30 hours/week though) and the highest paid tech that I know of was at ~$22/hr with most being ~$18 or under. From what I'm told, hospital techs do make significantly more.

 

[steveysmith54]

You're the exception here. My initial salary was ~$84k (based on 30 hours/week though) and the highest paid tech that I know of was at ~$22/hr with most being ~$18 or under. From what I'm told, hospital techs do make significantly more.

Yeah. How many hospitals are out there compared to the chains/indies? I know most chain and independent pharmacy techs are below $20, and huge tech shortage now…

 

[confettiflyer]

You're the exception here. My initial salary was ~$84k (based on 30 hours/week though) and the highest paid tech that I know of was at ~$22/hr with most being ~$18 or under. From what I'm told, hospital techs do make significantly more.

Region?

$17/hr is minimum wage here (municipal, the state is still $15/hr before anyone else goes keyboard warrior on me). $22/hr was my resident pay like, 10 years ago, for comparison.

The highest paid tech that I personally know of is like at $48/hr, not at my facility, though.

 

[randompharm]

Region and practice area?

$80k is less than what my seasoned techs make.

Is employer paid MBA for a lowly bioprocess tech still a thing?

That’s about spot on, i’d say even above 100 is a stretch for new grads (assuming they can get jobs). It’s the new typical salary if you look at some of the extensive salary spreadsheets (45-50/hr along with 28 to 32 hours and decreasing in some places). It equates to about 75-80k. If you account for different markets it would be the same due to COL. Some new grad was bragging about 55/hr in NY, which is realiatically like 40 anywhere else.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

Prospective Marshall B Ketchum student- this is how confident your school is after you graduate: Pharmacy Licensure Exam Requalification Program | Marshall B. Ketchum University

 

[confettiflyer]

That’s about spot on, i’d say even above 100 is a stretch for new grads (assuming they can get jobs). It’s the new typical salary if you look at some of the extensive salary spreadsheets (45-50/hr along with 28 to 32 hours and decreasing in some places). It equates to about 75-80k. If you account for different markets it would be the same due to COL. Some new grad was bragging about 55/hr in NY, which is realiatically like 40 anywhere else.

It's been a while, but I do recall doing a detailed (lol, not academic detailed) comparison between $40/hr in Pittsburg, PA vs. $80/hr in Silicon Valley. It ended up being equal, with housing being the big driver of that.

We discussed this in another thread recently. With housing and child care being the big drivers of COL here in CA, if you are one of the lucky ones that can minimize/eliminate the impact of both of those, you essentially are engaging in geo-arbitrage with the pharmacy salary market.

 

[VA77]

Prospective Marshall B Ketchum student- this is how confident your school is after you graduate: Pharmacy Licensure Exam Requalification Program | Marshall B. Ketchum University

Damn and they are charging graduates for something that they should have learned in the first place.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

Region?

$17/hr is minimum wage here (municipal, the state is still $15/hr before anyone else goes keyboard warrior on me). $22/hr was my resident pay like, 10 years ago, for comparison.

The highest paid tech that I personally know of is like at $48/hr, not at my facility, though.

Relatively inexpensive city in NYS but like others have said, that's more or less the going rate across most of the country.

 

[grumpyRph]

I still remember a fourth-year student from one of these newer schools who couldn't tell me what the symptoms of hypertension were. Needless to say, maybe 50% of their students would fail our APPEs and the school conveniently didn't renew our site contract...

symptoms of hypertension? are not that common and kinda non-descript.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

symptoms of hypertension? are not that common and kinda non-descript.

signs/symptoms, sequela... couldn't list classes of anti-hypertensives.

I precept in the hospital, but my litmus test is always "Would I trust this person to work at CVS dispensing medications for my loved one?"

 

[confettiflyer]

I don’t remember much about rotations these days, but I do remember two things I didn’t know anything about when asked on rotation, specifically.

1) I didn’t know how to dose Lovenox on my first rotation. Probably mentioned in therapeutics class, but my hospital here I worked at pretty much used dalteparin exclusively. Never saw it.

2) I couldn’t dose AMG at one of my residency interviews. I straight up said that I had never seen any dosed in practice, and I just could not come up with the EID dose on the spot.

Now, I can dose this stuff in my sleep and have really intricate discussions about pharmacokinetics, but it took time.

 

[grizzlesgrizzlies]

Region and practice area?

$80k is less than what my seasoned techs make.

Is employer paid MBA for a lowly bioprocess tech still a thing?

people seem to have short memories but before covid, a lot of retail rphs were having a tough time making the full 40 hours/week

Really, you have to admit a freshly minted PGY-1 in 2022-2023 would have a much different financial outcome than a PGY-1 in 2012-2013

Never did a PGY-1 myself, but my only regret was not doing an industry fellowship! 14 years into this career I'm definitely getting paid less adjusted for inflation while my classmates who are director levels in pharma are doubling or even tripling what I pull in.

 

[MatCauthon]

The job landscape for pharmacists has changed drastically since covid. It was the hunger games for a while for many. But not anymore.

Retail right now is really struggling to find people, not just techs. Signing bonuses are back at Walmart, especially in rural areas. Chains that were only giving 30hrs per week are now forcing rph to go to 40 because they so shortstaffed. I never heard of so many pharmacists quitting midshift as I had this past 1.5 years. The labor market is tight, and these crappy retail jobs just aren't worth it to alot of people anymore