1st Gun Experience

[pgg]

hunting small game

I also have to ask, under what circumstances do you see yourself hunting small game? Do you have a place to hunt? Do you have any hunting experience? I assume not if you're asking what gun to buy.

If you drop the hunting requirement, your question gets a lot easier to answer.

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[JoBreeze]

Two thoughts -
1) For a first gun / new shooter, I'm not so sure a rifle is the best self defense choice, in part because you can't carry it, if you ever choose to go there.
2) 22lr is not adequate for self defense. It's a plinking / practice / small game round.


Find a range with rentals, get some instruction if you're a beginner, try out different handguns, pick one, you like buy ammo, and practice.

Thanks for the response.

I guess I'm most willing to compromise on the home defense aspect. I just figured go with a semiauto over bolt action so that it can at least play that role/look the part in a relatively unlikely circumstance. Not worried too much about the price tag.

Does that make sense?

I also have to ask, under what circumstances do you see yourself hunting small game? Do you have a place to hunt? Do you have any hunting experience? I assume not if you're asking what gun to buy.

I've got a buddy who has quite a few acres out west and another guy recently married into the family with a farm down south, so I've been out with both of them one time, and was hoping to make it more routine. Love the self-sufficiency aspect etc. Ultimately I'll end up getting some advice from both of them, but I wanted to ask around as much as possible. I know nothing about choosing ammunition as well.

You are looking for a weapon that will be effective on a 150-200 pound human while at the same time being effective on a 1-4 pound animal without damaging it too much to eat.

Touche.

You are going to have to select the most critical application for yourself then compromise on the others.

As mentioned a few lines up, I'm most willing to compromise on home defense, covering the bare necessities there while fulfilling the other functions.

Three of my family members were executed with a single shot, bolt-action 22 rifle.

Dear god, I'm sorry. I can't help but want to hear what the hell happened there.

You can go bigger, to an ideal home defense caliber, but you will have to compromise on the cost and you will do too much damage on the small game.

If I were going to select a single gun for all of this, it would be a AR style .223 centerfire. You can select loads that will do minimal damage to small game (Light, full metal jacket and avoid the "varmint" loads). You can select loads that are more appropriate for human sized targets (understanding that this is such a low-power caliber that it is banned for deer hunting in multiple jurisdictions). You can buy "cheap" plinking ammo for it (understanding that this is still 3-5 times the cost of 22LR).

You can do the caliber conversion thing, but pay close attention to the total cost and the reliability. I don't like running cheap 22 loads through a weapon that I am going to rely on for self defense either. Personally I would just buy a second, cosmetically and functionally similar, weapon in 22LR.

All that being said, you could do a lot worse than a AR style semi-auto 22LR for your first gun. The best one on the market right now is the Smith and Wesson M&P 15-22 IMHO. It is the closest functional replica of a full size AR. If you learn on it, that training will be directly transferrable to a full-size AR. Arguably a bolt action would be marginally safer though.

I don't think a handgun is the best first gun, and fulfilling the three criteria with a handgun is even trickier.

- pod

Thanks for the advice.

Sounds like I just need two different weapons. I guess this is where the rabbit hole begins.

 

[periopdoc]

If you are willing to give up the defensive aspect, then a great starter gun is a 22 LR bolt action. I like the CZ line and would recommend a CZ 455.. Dependable, accurate, and a great first weapon to learn how to shoot and how to safely handle guns. I would prefer it if it had iron sights though.

Another option if you absolutely have to have a semi-auto is the Ruger 10-22. Probably the most popular (non bolt action) 22 rifle in America. Lots of options for customizing down the road. Not quite as accurate as the CZ, nor quite as intrinsically safe to learn on.

Of course, if you see a real AR in your future, you could do worse than to start by learning on the Smith and Wesson M&P 15-22. Not as accurate or safe as the CZ, but still a good gun to learn on.

Parents and grandmother killed during home invasion in a rural area. I have talked about it before on SDN.

- pod

 

[Ronin786]

Wired did a feature about the AR15 if anyone's interested.
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/02/ar-15/all/

Pretty long, but interesting.

 

[CjOz]

Hey guys,

I'm in the market to find a good home-defense pistol but I have never owned nor fired a pistol in my life. I do have a 12ga Benelli shotgun which I am experienced with but its so big and heavy. I'd prefer a firearm that is light and easy to manuver. I'm looking for a good reliable pistol that an amateur could handle with relative ease. Thanks for any responses

 

[loveoforganic2]

Hey guys,

I'm in the market to find a good home-defense pistol but I have never owned nor fired a pistol in my life. I do have a 12ga Benelli shotgun which I am experienced with but its so big and heavy. I'd prefer a firearm that is light and easy to manuver. I'm looking for a good reliable pistol that an amateur could handle with relative ease. Thanks for any responses

The list of good pistols is looooong. If you have a place near you where you can rent pistols or a couple buddies with a big armament, just trying various ones out and seeing what feels best is the way to go. Then, based on what you like, look into the reliability of the gun and whatnot online.

By "good for an amateur," I assume you mean relatively low recoil and easy to get a sight picture. Any full size 9mm or .38 should fit the bill for both of those

 

[periopdoc]

Hey guys,

I'm in the market to find a good home-defense pistol but I have never owned nor fired a pistol in my life. I do have a 12ga Benelli shotgun which I am experienced with but its so big and heavy. I'd prefer a firearm that is light and easy to manuver. I'm looking for a good reliable pistol that an amateur could handle with relative ease. Thanks for any responses

For a first gun, avoid ultralight handguns until you get the basics down pat. If you start with a ultralight, your attempts to mitigate the recoil will produce bad habits that will be hard to break later.

For a 1st handgun, I highly recommend a revolver. Dead nuts reliable. Safe. Easy to learn on. Personally I am a big fan of Smith and Wesson products for new manufacture revolvers. My personal favorite is a S&W model 66-3 which is pre-lock and only carries 6 rounds.

The Model 627 is a large frame revolver that gives you 8 shots of 357 mag or 38 special in a large framed revolver with good heft.




An even better option is the mid-frame 686 plus with a three inch barrel. Only seven rounds, but a more versatile size. It is still heavy enough to learn on, but small enough to be adopted for more routine carry. Still not as concealable as a small semi-auto, but workable.



If you must go semi-auto, I would recommend a striker fired weapon like a Glock or S&W M&P in 9mm. As long as you choose an appropriate load, there is no need to go bigger. At this time, I would recommend the Glock over the M&P. I shoot several different striker fired handguns and I still choose my Glocks for carry. 9mm for city work and 10mm for woods carry (although I still choose a revolver ahead of either one). The Glock is a great first semi-auto which will hold its value over time should you become interested in something else. If you want to go to the trouble of installing a action kit on the M&P then it starts to rival the Glock. Still I prefer the latter.

There is also the consideration, depending on the jurisdiction that you live in, that having a gun for home protection that is similar to what law enforcement carries may be more favorable in the eyes of a jury than a more "aggressive" appearing gun like a 44 mag etc. The Glock 9mm fills this bill nicely.

Certainly many departments are going to the 40, but that is primarily because they need to be able to shoot through barriers like car doors, windshields etc. The 40 is marginally superior in this role, although the additional recoil and muzzle blast outweighs this marginal benefit in my mind, especially for the new shooter.

- pod

 

[periopdoc]

Depending on which room of my house I am in, I have a few handgun caliber options at hand for home defense.

- pod

 

[deleted480308]

Hey guys,

I'm in the market to find a good home-defense pistol but I have never owned nor fired a pistol in my life. I do have a 12ga Benelli shotgun which I am experienced with but its so big and heavy. I'd prefer a firearm that is light and easy to manuver. I'm looking for a good reliable pistol that an amateur could handle with relative ease. Thanks for any responses

I carry a glock26 (their small 9mm) and love it. I also have family who carry the "airweight" revolvers because they purse carry and want a lighter gun. My firmest suggestion is go take a pistol safety class and go to a range that rents multiple guns and shoot different ones ( most ranges have a daily fee that will let you shoot all of them)

 

[pgg]

NRA's having one of their $300 lifetime membership drives now. Regularly $1000.

They're not perfect by any means, and Wayne LaPierre says some dumbly inopportune stuff from time to time, but they are THE most effective national lobbying group for us. Time for me to renew anyway, so I just went ahead and got it done forever.


In other news, our latest tax stamp came back last week. I'm not sure when we sent in the paperwork. June or July 2012. 7 or 8 months to cash a check and run an instant background check. Hooray for the ATF.

My brother / co-trustee picked it up from the dealer since I am otherwise indisposed at the moment. He's going to have a lot of extra space in his safe when I move back to a free state. I'm lucky he doesn't charge rent for all my California contraband.

SureFire 5.56 Mini. Old model, not the SOCOM. Presently have an FA556-212, FA338SS, AAC Tirant 9S, and two SBRs still awaiting the ATF. I think that'll do it for the NFA stuff until they repeal the Hughes Amendment. (Thinking positive.)

 

[periopdoc]

Will be curious to hear a range report.

- pod

 

[e30ftw]

my first gun experience was 8 years old shooting my uncle's S&W .40 in their backyard. soon after that we found my grandpa's guns and started shooting all kinds of stuff over there.

currently only have a bb gun and a mosin nagant m44. not the best home defense weapon, will probably pick up a 12 gauge in the near future, but i have more than 500 rounds for the mosin and it shoots ~6 inches at 100 yards with iron sights. the steel core stuff i have generates about 3500 joules of energy ( compared with ~500 for a 9mm round) so basically any chest/abd/pelvis shot is going effectively stop someone.. and of course keep going through walls/windows/cars/etc.

key to owning any firearm is spending lots of time cleaning and shooting it. Handguns/shotguns can both make good self defense weapons. personally i have always just enjoyed shooting rifles so that's what I own.

 

[beavis]

For all who own guns (especially pod, who keeps them throughout the house),

How do you keep them locked up, but accessible at the same time? Do you have children?

Thanks,

Beav

 

[pgg]

For all who own guns (especially pod, who keeps them throughout the house),

How do you keep them locked up, but accessible at the same time? Do you have children?

If I'm not carrying one, it's a safe. With electronic or biometric locks, it only takes a couple seconds to get in. I do have kids. Youngest is now 11. They've been taught from a young age that guns are dangerous tools, while supervising them shooting so they're familiar and safe. I don't worry about them doing something stupidly curious, but the guns are still locked up. At some point in the near future we'll probably give our oldest (15) access to one of the safes.

 

[BADMD]

Worth watching when you have 45 minutes. It is on the security of many commercially available small Gun safes. It is a lecture that was presented at DEFCON 19.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5Yr6ATdaDQ8

Langauge is not safe for work, but quite entertaining.

 

[pie944]

SBR specific length? +/- Suppressor? Worth it? I can't say I have a specific indication for this purchase or that it will occur anytime soon, but just something I've been reading about with interest.

 

[pgg]

SBR specific length? +/- Suppressor? Worth it? I can't say I have a specific indication for this purchase or that it will occur anytime soon, but just something I've been reading about with interest.

Suppressors are great. They can be sort of expensive, especially the ones for bigger rifles, and they're a hassle to get because of the paperwork and ATF wait. But everyone who gets one loves it and they start to multiply.

Suppressors don't make most centerfire rifles hearing safe. 5.56/.223 especially is loud and you should still wear hearing protection. Any supersonic bullet is going to make a crack no matter how quiet the gun itself is, so if you buy a rifle suppressor don't have Hollywood expectations going in. They're not really quiet, certainly not silent. Semi-auto rifles like ARs also have some ejection port noise that suppressors don't reduce. Despite that, a suppressor reduces recoil and greatly reduces the amount of noise. They're just more pleasant to shoot for you and the people around you. Even though they might not make a rifle OSHA hearing safe, there's a world of difference in both comfort and risk by taking it from 160+ dB to 135-140 db.

And if you ever shoot it without hearing protection, for example indoors in a self-defense situation, it's the difference between instant severe permanent hearing damage and a bit of a ring for a short time.

Pistol suppressors tend to perform better (there being a lot of subsonic ammo options) but the down side there is that they have a much greater effect on the balance of the gun and may obscure the sights, making it harder to shoot well.

Rimfire suppressors are the best of all worlds, cheapest and most effective. Anyone who has a 22 rifle and lives in a state that allows suppressors should get one. There's just no downside.

As for SBRs, they're nice because they're a bit lighter, but what I like best is that you don't end up with a silly long front-heavy >20-25" barrel after you put a suppressor on it. You do compromise some with lower velocity (and thus maybe terminal ballistics) the shorter you go with the barrel, and below 10" many suppressor warranties are voided. For 5.56/.223 I think about 11" give or take is a good length. One potential issue with SBRs is that you need the ATF's permission before you take one across state lines - this is sort of an odd requirement, because they can't say no, but you have to wait for them to say yes, and that may take a few weeks. (Suppressors are the only NFA-regulated items exempt from this rule.)

 

[W222]

On this theme, anyone know when this damn ammo shortage will end? I can't find anything.

 

[pgg]

On this theme, anyone know when this damn ammo shortage will end? I can't find anything.

Consider reloading. Components are scarce, but they're available, and prices aren't up all that much.

I'd guess it'll be months yet before this panic starts to abate, and a year before prices come down. They may never get back to 2012 levels. After the first Obamascare in 2009, it was maybe 2010 before prices dipped, but demand remained high enough that prices never returned to pre-2008 levels. This time "they" say it's worse, but manufacturers of everything gun-related have massively increased production capacity over the last four years.

Not being able to shoot at all in 2009 is what prompted me to learn to reload.

I think availability will be just fine later this year.

 

[periopdoc]

For all who own guns (especially pod, who keeps them throughout the house),

How do you keep them locked up, but accessible at the same time? Do you have children?

As the least anonymous member of this forum, I generally avoid specifics about my home security. However, I will offer this.

My how the times have changed. When I was growing up, it was nothing to see the family shotgun leaning next to the front door and have an unlocked, glass-front cabinet full of guns in the living room, usually with a few holstered revolvers on belts hanging in there. Now we are obsessed with keeping our guns "secure yet accessible."

Thankfully, I live in a jurisdiction without any of the silly gun storage requirements you might see in NY, Wash D.C., or CA. Generally speaking, my "active" guns are concealed, not secured. My other guns live in my 5000 lb TL-30x6 safe. Until my youngest is a little older, I don't have to worry about children playing with my guns. I do make a concession to protecting little visitors. My semi-autos all have empty chambers and my revolvers either have heavy springs or are physically on me when they are not in my safe. Mostly though, they are just inaccessible to little ones, which is all that I am concerned about.

When my daughter is older, I will likely spring for a few of the cheap GunVault style boxes for around the house.

I have a "vault" in my truck for when I feel the need to disarm and secure. Currently in Montana I can open carry into a bank, bar etc, but I cannot concealed carry there. The law to fix that failed by a narrow margin this year, I am sure we will take another stab at it next year. I don't open carry for numerous reasons, so I might make use of the "vault" when I am in that situation.

Consider reloading. Components are scarce, but they're available, and prices aren't up all that much.

Scarce? They aren't scarce. They are nonexistent. Just tell me where I can buy 223 or 9mm bullets right now, or a pound of Titegroup or Varget and some small pistol primers without paying 2.5 to 3 times what they went for two months ago. When anybody gets them in stock, they are sold out within minutes. At current prices, it is more expensive to reload than it was to buy premium ammo last December.

I have a lot of friends asking me about getting into reloading and I tell them all the same thing. Don't do it right now. Wait until mid-summer at the earliest.

- pod

 

[pgg]

Scarce? They aren't scarce. They are nonexistent. Just tell me where I can buy 223 or 9mm bullets right now, or a pound of Titegroup or Varget and some small pistol primers without paying 2.5 to 3 times what they went for two months ago. When anybody gets them in stock, they are sold out within minutes. At current prices, it is more expensive to reload than it was to buy premium ammo last December.

I'm not buying much at all these days, as I have a pretty good supply of most calibers I shoot and am not even around to shoot, but I keep an eye on a few online stores and various in-stock threads on other forums, to be able to round out my stock in a few areas.

Wideners had Wolf 5.56 primers for around $20/1000 about two weeks ago.

Cabela's lists CCI sm pistol primers in stock right now, granted $38/1000.

Hornady 55 gr FMJ .224 $125/1000 in stock.

I bought a case of 5000 .224 75 gr match bullets from Wideners for $625 shipped 6 days ago. Gone now, but they were in stock for at least a week. Not SMKs, but I was low on heavy .224 bullets and t was far too good a deal to pass up.

Powder Valley had 1# and 8# Varget in stock within the last two weeks, but I still have about 20# of it so I didn't order any. They are waaaaay behind on shipping, but if they list it in stock they have it.

Natchez has a lot of Alliant powder in stock right now.


Scarce, but not non-existent. And it helps to be willing to jump on alternate products. (I've never shot the 75 gr bulk HPBTs I ordered, but they get good reviews and the price was fantastic, so I ordered a case). Maybe a rough time to start reloading since finding all the needed equipment would be a scavenger hunt too.


And maybe a little easier for me to be philosophical about it all, since I literally have months to watch the online retailers and pick and choose deals to round out my stock for when I get home.

I also use cron scheduling on a cygwin install on my computer to check online store pages of interest with wget every 30 minutes or couple of hours and email me if 'out of stock' becomes 'in stock' ... works best with sites like Powder Valley that don't do email notifications because no one else gets an auto in-stock notification and I have more time to order.

 

[periopdoc]

When you have to resort exotic mechanisms like cron/cygwin/wget to find components, I would argue that things are less than scarce.

Sure, for guys like you and me who think nothing of buying 5000 bullets, 10-20 pounds of powder, or 10,000 primers at a whack, and know our loads well enough that we can search the breadth of the web for the right components in stock, or what we can substitute, there is stock available. Scarce, but available.

For the guy who is just starting out and wants to buy 100 each of three or four different weights/types of bullets in one caliber, one pound of a few different types of powder, and a couple hundred primers so that he can learn how to reload, he is out of luck. He can't find product locally. He isn't about to pay the hazmat and shipping fee to the one place that has primers and another hazmat and shipping fee to the place that has powder.

Not to mention how hard it is to find presses in stock right now. I had to wait almost three months for my new rifle press (Forster).

For those guys, it just doesn't make sense to get into it right now. Wait a few months until the craziness wears off.

Oh and CCI small pistol primers, truly non-existent. Cabelas does not actually have them in stock, even though they say they do. If you notice, those are in store only and the shelves are actually bare at their stores.

I am a little torqued at Cabelas right now because I ordered 10,000 when they popped up last week. They said they had them in stock and could fulfill the order. About 12 hours later they cancelled my order saying they had oversold (no problem so far, I understand how crazy it is). However, they would not make an exception to their no back-order policy or otherwise let me be first in line for the next batch even though it was their screw up.

Ah well. I listened to this guys advice

Well all I know is if you think that Obama is going to win a second term, you should run out and buy a bunch of mid-range AR's, cases of 223/5.56 ammo, and 30+ round magazines (to make improvements in your collection of course).

Whether or not Obama actually intends on restricting gun rights, the price of these things on the secondary market is going to skyrocket as demand escalates and availability plummets in the few months following the election.

and expanded it to my reloading components. I am pretty set and can wait for good deals on stuff to show up. I have been supplying friends at cost with the extras I bought although I am starting to run thin on extra stuff like cases of .223.

The one component I didn't get nearly enough of was small pistol primers though. I am down to about 4000. Oh well, guess I will just shoot the bigger stuff and rifles for a while.

- pod

 

[pgg]

When you have to resort exotic mechanisms like cron/cygwin/wget to find components, I would argue that things are less than scarce.

Yeah, OK point well taken.

I had to wait almost three months for my new rifle press (Forster).

Ooooh, nice, I want one of those too. Think I need a progressive press first though, probably a Dillon 650. I shoot a lot but probably not enough to justify a 1050.

The one component I didn't get nearly enough of was small pistol primers though

Many people substitute small rifle primers for small pistol. I've read a few accounts of people deciding to only buy small rifle to simplify their supplies. The main caveat seems to be that some SRPs like those intended for semi-autos are hard enough that pistol strikes might not always set them off. You might try that if you run out of SPPs.

 

[periopdoc]

Right there with you. When I couldn't find SPP last fall, I stocked up on SRP just in case. At last count I have... enough SRP to keep me going for a while.

I also have a little too much LRP as I bought a couple of cases of Remington 9.5 thinking they were Remington 9's and didn't realize it until I got home. It was a great deal though. It was on clearance and I got 2 cases for under 200 dollars total. I will happily deal with a few mis-fires for that price

I am just about ready for a progressive as well. I am getting tired of four cycles per round on my Lee turret. I am in the same boat. 650 vs 1050 vs Hornady LnL. I don't load enugh to justify the 1050 even though I somehow or another ended up reloading for 4 different guys. Originally I meant for them to come over and use my equipment and supplies to load their own and somehow it morphed into me doing all the work... and I don't even like reloading that much.

I wish the Dillon could be adapted to use the RCBS primer strips. Those look like the bomb for handling primers, but I don't think the RCBS progressive is all that great.

I will let you know what I go with and how I like it.

- pod

 

[pgg]

Right there with you. When I couldn't find SPP last fall, I stocked up on SRP just in case. At last count I have... enough SRP to keep me going for a while.

Bullets are my light area. I've given some thought to casting, because it looks like fun. I like making stuff, even if I can buy it for less money and less hassle. Some of the swaging die sets for making jacketed bullets out of brass are interesting. I'm just not so sure I want to get into smelting lead in my back yard. Seems like there are a few ways that could go wrong. I don't want to find myself posting on SDN about my unfortunate schmelting accident.

I am just about ready for a progressive as well. I am getting tired of four cycles per round on my Lee turret. I am in the same boat. 650 vs 1050 vs Hornady LnL. I don't load enugh to justify the 1050 even though I somehow or another ended up reloading for 4 different guys. Originally I meant for them to come over and use my equipment and supplies to load their own and somehow it morphed into me doing all the work... and I don't even like reloading that much.

I wish the Dillon could be adapted to use the RCBS primer strips. Those look like the bomb for handling primers, but I don't think the RCBS progressive is all that great.

I will let you know what I go with and how I like it.

I'm torn between the 650 or LNL, vs a 1050. The 1050 certainly outshines both, and it should considering how much Dillon wants for it. I don't think I'd mind the longer caliber change time. I mostly believe in the 'buy once' theory. I say 'mostly' because in retrospect I sure have blown a bit of money on stuff I don't need or can't take full advantage of. (My 338LM Sako + S&B PMII + can-pending-ATF epitomizes this, but the awesome factor goes a long long way.)

It seems the 650 is really intended to be a pistol press that can do rifle; the kind of built-in slop that makes it a smooth pistol press doesn't necessarily bode so well for consistent rifle loading. I can't keep loading .223 on my turret press and get the kind of volume I need to practice for service rifle competition, which I'm just getting into. But I don't want to buy a 650 and 3 months later find myself loading .223 on the turret again.

Also on the maybe list, a Giraud trimmer. But then I think about how a Dillon trimmer can go on the press and I'd never have to handle the brass at all. Decisions decisions.

 

[BADMD]

I am just about ready for a progressive as well. I am getting tired of four cycles per round on my Lee turret. I am in the same boat. 650 vs 1050 vs Hornady LnL.

I went the with LnL this summer for my birthday.

Things I like:
-The power measurer is as accurate as my Lyman #55 although you need to switch inserts for large versus small drops.
-Easier cartridge changes than Dillon
-Everything red is cheaper than blue

The thing I don't:
The primer system can be a PITA. Both systems are functionally the same; the primer slider is cammed back and forth by a wire with the shell plate. I can't speak to the 650, but on LnL, the primer cam wire is held in place by a spring loaded post on the bottom and a ploymer plate on the top. The wire is supposed to break away if there is too much pressure. However, if you don't stop pulling the handle as soon as it breaks away, the cam wire gets trapped and breaks or bends (worse) the polymer plate. I've had to replace the polymer piece 3 times ($11.99 from Midway, out of stock, expected 5/5/13).

Now that I understand exactly how it breaks, I don't think I'll break another one, but I'd like to have a spare, just in case. I haven't yet moved to the powder through expander system, although I bought the parts. That will allow me to separate seating and crimping for straight walled cartridges.

You guys made me inventory my primers. Not great, but ok there. My biggest problem is that I'm going to run out of bullets first. I have less than 400 of mixed .451 caliber and about 1200 in various .224.

 

[pgg]

You guys made me inventory my primers. Not great, but ok there.

I started using Wolf primers about a year ago and I've been really happily surprised with the quality. Their loaded ammo is get-what-you-pay-for cheap, but the primers are literally HALF the price of other brands, and they still go bang every time. Haven't noticed any accuracy issues with them in pistol rounds. Or maybe I'm not a good enough shot to notice the difference. Haven't shot enough of the SRPs to make a judgment yet, but so far so good.

I still use CCI BR2 for my precision 308s, and before I took off for my vacation had just started using Federal LRM primers (210M) for 338. I might be wasting money there, but I'll keep using them, since I have more 210M than realistic barrel life in that gun. The BR2s were often going for $40-50/1000 pre-panic2, while Wolf could be had for under $20/1000.

I'm really thinking about just buying Wolf or Tula primers for most other purposes from now on.

 

[pie944]

Lyman Reloading Handbook a good stating point?

 

[BADMD]

Lyman Reloading Handbook a good stating point?

I'm sure everyone has an opinion.

I'd start with the "ABCs of Reloading."

There is some good information in Lyman and Hornady's books, but the real value is in the load data. More and more, this is data is becoming out of data and less useful. Accurate Powders and Hodgdon publish extensive amounts of load data online. Alliant publishes some too, however their data is less useful.

The best education I got was making dummy loads and then testing them in a case gauge, then barrel, then function testing, before making up a few test cartridges. The books say a lot, but nothing replaces doing it in a cautious, careful and methodical fashion. It would help if you know someone who reloads, so you can sit with them and watch/help. And read stuff online. There is lots of good stuff in the forums.

 

[pgg]

Lyman Reloading Handbook a good stating point?

It's one of the better books out there. Covers all the basics and has a lot of load data.

 

[periopdoc]

ABCs

-pod

 

[deleted480308]

I'm sure everyone has an opinion.

I'd start with the "ABCs of Reloading."

There is some good information in Lyman and Hornady's books, but the real value is in the load data. More and more, this is data is becoming out of data and less useful. Accurate Powders and Hodgdon publish extensive amounts of load data online. Alliant publishes some too, however their data is less useful.

The best education I got was making dummy loads and then testing them in a case gauge, then barrel, then function testing, before making up a few test cartridges. The books say a lot, but nothing replaces doing it in a cautious, careful and methodical fashion. It would help if you know someone who reloads, so you can sit with them and watch/help. And read stuff online. There is lots of good stuff in the forums.

Definitely observe/work with an experienced reloader first

 

[periopdoc]

I learned on my own. It helps to be a little obsessive-compulsive and my lab experience probably helps.

At first, I thought it would be nice to have an experienced reloader to look over my loads for things like proper crimp and pressure signs. Then I thought, where did they learn? Who from? What if they have process errors and pass them on to me?

Have patience. Read lots. Keep a good notebook. Take your time. Think through the process and the problems you may encounter.

-pod

 

[WashMe]

I learned on my own. It helps to be a little obsessive-compulsive and my lab experience probably helps.

At first, I thought it would be nice to have an experienced reloader to look over my loads for things like proper crimp and pressure signs. Then I thought, where did they learn? Who from? What if they have process errors and pass them on to me?

Have patience. Read lots. Keep a good notebook. Take your time. Think through the process and the problems you may encounter.

-pod

pod, I'm trying to pull a metaphor for learning anesthesiology out of this post, but it just sounds dangerous for the patient no matter how I spin it lol. There are surely countless "process errors" propagated in anesthesia training, but unlike reloading I can't just cowboy my way to competence

 

[periopdoc]

The two are extremely analogous, and what makes you good at anesthesia will serve you in good stead when starting reloading. Conceptual understanding of what you are doing, ability to stay focused on critical issues during monotonous tasks, ability to multitask accurately and precisely etc.

The safety rules are well outlined in the books which come from real experts in reloading and reloading safety. Read them, understand them, and more importantly think about and understand why they exist.

If you do learn from an "attending reloader", be cautious at taking their word at face value and do your own research.

- pod

 

[pgg]

I too learned on my own. Read a couple books and spend a couple weeks on reloading forums before making a single round. Resist the urge to just jump in and make ammo. Resist the urge to buy a progressive press from the start ... you can make ammo a lot faster with one, sure, but you can also make a lot of bad ammo fast with one and the extra moving parts and simultaneous operations would have been overwhelming to me as a beginner. My advice is to learn on a single stage, and if you start with a turret press, use it as a single stage at first.

I started off with a supposedly all-inclusive reloading kit (this one) and wanted to jump right in.

I read the entire Lyman #49 manual a couple times and ABCs before loading a single round.

As I read, it became clear that the "Deluxe Expert Kit" was missing some absolutely vital tools ... such as a micrometer, without which it is impossible to safely set up seating dies. Likewise, without a case gage or micrometer, you can't set up the case trimmer, and you wouldn't even know if it was needed for a case in the first place. Cheap electronic scales like that one are notorious for drifting within a session, and there are no weights included to verify its accuracy. There were other non-obvious issues that became apparent from reading ahead of time.

As for trusting another reloader to teach you ... like pod I have mixed feelings. It's helpful to have someone to start you off right, but who to trust? I won't shoot rounds reloaded by another person. I don't even buy "factory" reloads made by small manufacturers at gun shows. My neighbor who's reloaded all his life put up a fence along his back yard that was hilariously crooked because he couldn't be bothered to tie off some string as a guide, I'm supposed to trust that kind of half-assery to teach me how to make ammunition? He was kind enough to give me an assortment of his .223 reloads to try out, but I pulled the bullets and fertilized some plants with the powder.

Your own diligence, patience, and compulsive attention to detail are what will allow you to safely load good ammo. Trust no one, read and think. Confirm every new load from multiple sources. Start low and work up. Buy a chronograph and use it. Label everything and keep records. Don't hesitate to post questions on reloading forums, or ask for a sanity check for component combinations when you load your first rounds.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I have used streamlight 69222 tlr-3 weapon mounted tactical light and Streamlight 14032 sidewinder military tactical flashlight both worked like charm. Weapon tactical flashlight just awesome.

Love the stream light! One of the advantages of earning really good money is being able to buy stuff like the stream lights!

 

[BLADEMDA]

Amazon product

High quality and effective. Recommend.

 

[BLADEMDA]

For the non gun owners out there I recommend a Smith and Wesson Revolver or Ruger Revolver (.357 loaded with .38 hollow point rounds) vs a nice, reliable semi-auto pistol made by Glock, HK, Springflied or Smith and Wesson.

For those that rarely shoot much go with the revolver as that requires less practice and will go BANG every time you pull the trigger.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Once the SCOTUS goes "liberal" next year I figure the revolver may be the only gun I can carry outside my home.

 

[BLADEMDA]

 

[BLADEMDA]

 

[BLADEMDA]

 

[bashwell]

Once the SCOTUS goes "liberal" next year I figure the revolver may be the only gun I can carry outside my home.

You mean because they'll likely ban semi-autos?

 

[BLADEMDA]

You mean because they'll likely ban semi-autos?

They will ban "assault rifles" which basically means any gun which looks aggressive. In addition, they will likely uphold state laws which ban magazines which hold more than 8-10 rounds of ammo. FYI, all my semi auto pistols hold more than 8 rounds except for my 1911.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NY_SAFE_Act

 

[ZzzPlz]

Amazon product

High quality and effective. Recommend.

+1 on Streamlights. Important to see what you're shooting at.

 

[HalO'Thane]

For a first gun, avoid ultralight handguns until you get the basics down pat. If you start with a ultralight, your attempts to mitigate the recoil will produce bad habits that will be hard to break later.

For a 1st handgun, I highly recommend a revolver. Dead nuts reliable. Safe. Easy to learn on. Personally I am a big fan of Smith and Wesson products for new manufacture revolvers. My personal favorite is a S&W model 66-3 which is pre-lock and only carries 6 rounds.

The Model 627 is a large frame revolver that gives you 8 shots of 357 mag or 38 special in a large framed revolver with good heft.




An even better option is the mid-frame 686 plus with a three inch barrel. Only seven rounds, but a more versatile size. It is still heavy enough to learn on, but small enough to be adopted for more routine carry. Still not as concealable as a small semi-auto, but workable.



If you must go semi-auto, I would recommend a striker fired weapon like a Glock or S&W M&P in 9mm. As long as you choose an appropriate load, there is no need to go bigger. At this time, I would recommend the Glock over the M&P. I shoot several different striker fired handguns and I still choose my Glocks for carry. 9mm for city work and 10mm for woods carry (although I still choose a revolver ahead of either one). The Glock is a great first semi-auto which will hold its value over time should you become interested in something else. If you want to go to the trouble of installing a action kit on the M&P then it starts to rival the Glock. Still I prefer the latter.

There is also the consideration, depending on the jurisdiction that you live in, that having a gun for home protection that is similar to what law enforcement carries may be more favorable in the eyes of a jury than a more "aggressive" appearing gun like a 44 mag etc. The Glock 9mm fills this bill nicely.

Certainly many departments are going to the 40, but that is primarily because they need to be able to shoot through barriers like car doors, windshields etc. The 40 is marginally superior in this role, although the additional recoil and muzzle blast outweighs this marginal benefit in my mind, especially for the new shooter.

- pod

I love my Smith and Wesson 357 Magnum (8 bullet capacity). Mine actually has a tactical rail on it that I have used to attach a streamlight so I feel like I have the best of both worlds.

 

[Wiscoblue]

I have a xdm 9mm that I really like. Holds 19 rounds in the clip and one in the barrel. Two loaded clips and I'm good. I also have a short binelli 12g which holds 5 shells and sits loaded in my closet.