Your chance to plan my life

[lifepwned]

Have done some soul searching and am now committed to the MD. I have spent the past two days reading through the forums and am getting ready to prep my apps, though I fear that if I apply this year, I will be too late for some of the better ones. Worst case scenario, I can volunteer or work in a lab for a year and apply next year. I am considering volunteering / working in a lab in Illinois for a year to get Illinois residency.
Stats:
-Duke undergrad (3.2 / 1450 SAT but no science courses)
-Transferred from one law school (3.5 - top 10%) to a top 10 law school (3.4 - top 1/3rd)
-Six months at a big new york law firm.

Post-bac:
Would like to apply to UCLA, UC Irvine (cali resident), Scripps, H extension, Columbia, Goucher, Bryn Mawr, U of Chicago.

Any idea of my chances at these programs and whether I should add additional programs?

Also, feel free to plan the entire way through things and I will consider following your chosen path. My style is mpetuous. My defense is impregnable, and I'm just ferocious.

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[doctorhoskinson]

Have done some soul searching and am now committed to the MD. I have spent the past two days reading through the forums and am getting ready to prep my apps, though I fear that if I apply this year, I will be too late for some of the better ones. Worst case scenario, I can volunteer or work in a lab for a year and apply next year. I am considering volunteering / working in a lab in Illinois for a year to get Illinois residency.
Stats:
-Duke undergrad (3.2 / 1450 SAT but no science courses)
-Transferred from one law school (3.5 - top 10%) to a top 10 law school (3.4 - top 1/3rd)
-Six months at a big new york law firm.

Post-bac:
Would like to apply to UCLA, UC Irvine (cali resident), Scripps, H extension, Columbia, Goucher, Bryn Mawr, U of Chicago.

Any idea of my chances at these programs and whether I should add additional programs?

Also, feel free to plan the entire way through things and I will consider following your chosen path. My style is mpetuous. My defense is impregnable, and I'm just ferocious.

You're a textbook candidate for Harvard's Program. While in the program, also consider attending an EMT-B program and working part time in a busy ER. Harvard's premed people have extensive resources so they can better advise you on the particular pathway, but in the event you still can't get in after Harvard's grace, then consider an SMP. Try either Georgetown's Program or University of Cincinnati. If you like the Boston area, then BC has a good 1-2 yearish program that can also help you.

The metric here is a matrix between clincal and hospital experience (1-2 years), GPA 3.5+, and MCAT 30+. With such stats you probably won't need an SMP, but if you do have to attend an SMP, then you will eventually get into medical school permitting good academic performance (and personality).

 

[NewmansOwn]

Have done some soul searching and am now committed to the MD. I have spent the past two days reading through the forums and am getting ready to prep my apps, though I fear that if I apply this year, I will be too late for some of the better ones. Worst case scenario, I can volunteer or work in a lab for a year and apply next year. I am considering volunteering / working in a lab in Illinois for a year to get Illinois residency.
Stats:
-Duke undergrad (3.2 / 1450 SAT but no science courses)
-Transferred from one law school (3.5 - top 10%) to a top 10 law school (3.4 - top 1/3rd)
-Six months at a big new york law firm.

Post-bac:
Would like to apply to UCLA, UC Irvine (cali resident), Scripps, H extension, Columbia, Goucher, Bryn Mawr, U of Chicago.

Any idea of my chances at these programs and whether I should add additional programs?

Also, feel free to plan the entire way through things and I will consider following your chosen path. My style is mpetuous. My defense is impregnable, and I'm just ferocious.

GPA is low, but with your other life experience the top places might give you an interview. Do as much volunteer and clinical work as you can from right now to October, when you should apply, and you might have a shot at some of those programs.

Also, CA in-state status is coveted by all, so you should be reluctant to give it up. The ideal situation for you would be to go to Scripps, I'm thinking, but your GPA might be an issue -- you really need some medically related extracurriculars. EMT training isn't a bad idea, but in your case, I might go for something even more creative. Try to get in on the ground level of a service organization and take a leadership role. Anyone can be an EMT, but not everyone has the initiative to start a mobile health clinic in their city, or organize a taxi service to get the infirm to their doctor's appointments. These things are clearly labor and time intensive, but doing something really remarkable might negate your mediocre GPA.

 

[lifepwned]

Why is Cali residence so coveted? I thought the Cali med schools were hardish to get into and that states like Ohio / Illinois are the best because they have a large number of medschools that reserve a huge % of spots for in-state?

It seems like the two posts so far advance two options:

1) enroll in Harvard Ext now; community service until Harvard starts in the Fall; get 3.5+ there; rock MCAT; and do some community service/med type stuff for the gap year.

2) do community/med stuff until fall, apply to the competitive post-bacs at that point; get 3.5+ ; rock MCAT; hope for linkages, etc?

Also, I took (and I think completed) an EMT-B course in 2003 or 2004, so I guess I could re-certify and do that?

 

[drizzt3117]

Scripps is your best bet, I think your stays make you a viable candidate, but as Newman said, you'll need some clinical experience.

You won't be eligible for the UC postbacs unless you are a URM.

HES would be a good backup if you don't get into one of the top formals.

GPA is low, but with your other life experience the top places might give you an interview. Do as much volunteer and clinical work as you can from right now to October, when you should apply, and you might have a shot at some of those programs.

Also, CA in-state status is coveted by all, so you should be reluctant to give it up. The ideal situation for you would be to go to Scripps, I'm thinking, but your GPA might be an issue -- you really need some medically related extracurriculars. EMT training isn't a bad idea, but in your case, I might go for something even more creative. Try to get in on the ground level of a service organization and take a leadership role. Anyone can be an EMT, but not everyone has the initiative to start a mobile health clinic in their city, or organize a taxi service to get the infirm to their doctor's appointments. These things are clearly labor and time intensive, but doing something really remarkable might negate your mediocre GPA.

 

[ChairmanMao]

I just read your plight and I'm going to throw my hat into the ring. Given the fact that you graduated from Duke and worked in NYC, I think the Columbia post-bac program would be a good fit for you. Once you get accepted to the program, you will be able to take all the required science courses over 2 years and they also offer plent of shadowing/volunteering experience so that you can be viable candidate for medical school. To apply to the Columbia University post bac program go to the site http://www.columbia.edu/cu/gs/postbac/admissions/apply.html

Read through the requirements and information page and fill out an online application, get your recommendations, GRE, LSAT and transcripts sent to them. You might want to hurry up and apply soon because the deadline for most of these post-bac programs starting in the fall 2009 is usually in May or June of this year.

_______________________________________________________________

After you take those classes, you're going to want to take the MCAT for the admissions to medical school. To take the MCAT, go to https://services.aamc.org/20/mcat/ to register and sign up for a testing date.

_______________________________________________________________

After you've taken the post-bac classes and the MCAT, you can go and fill out your AMCAS application. To fill out an AMCAS application, go to http://www.aamc.org/audienceamcas.htm

If you've already registered for the MCAT, then you should be able to log into AMCAS using the same username and password to fill out the application for medical school. The application should be pretty easy and straightforward.

 

[drizzt3117]

I wouldn't do the Columbia program. It has a high attrition rate and nowhere near the success of the top programs when you take into account all of the people who started the program. There are a number of people who did the program who wouldn't recommend it and some people who want to drop out mid program. You're going to have a much better experience at one of the top formals (BM, Scripps, Goucher) and I would HES as a backup option if you don't get into one of those.

If you did the Scripps program and did well in the program and on the MCAT, you would probably be competitive for UCs/USC, so CA residency would be a good thing to have if you'd like to stay in the state. You could also do one of the linkages that are available if you don't want to take the extra year to apply in the open pool.

Also at least at the Scripps program, the postbacs generally tend to average 3.7-4.0, I'd shoot for as close to a 4.0 as possible during your year there. That would make you very competitive for the top programs. Since you aren't graded on a curve, it's pretty achievable.

 

[DrMidlife]

Why is Cali residence so coveted? I thought the Cali med schools were hardish to get into and that states like Ohio / Illinois are the best because they have a large number of medschools that reserve a huge % of spots for in-state?

Who is coveting it? CA med schools ARE the hardest to get into. NY and PA are pretty wicked as well. OH is good, IL's okay. TX and FL have the most schools, cheapest tuition and most reasonable competition. I didn't pull this out of my butt, I pulled it out of the MSAR and from state population data. I started a thread with links and analysis last year, I think in preallo - it was a big fat huge "depends on what 'is' means" kind of throwdown that turned into Asian bashing and people arguing that Erie PA is an attractive town plus the usual "median vs. mean" and uselessness of the MSAR stuff. I should go find that thread.

Edit: here we go: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=451407
And here's the 2010-2011 MSAR as a spreadsheet: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=8031855&postcount=67

Another edit: here are the AAMC tables with undoubtedly more readable per-state data: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/start.htm

 

[NewmansOwn]

I had stated CA state residency was coveted. Folks are right when then say CA med schools are the hardest to get in to, but it's more manageable for in-state residents. Since the CA med schools are extremely awesome, I think it's wise to think twice before giving up in-state status.

As drizz stated, I definitely wouldn't give it up for Columbia. I might consider giving it up to go to BM or Goucher, but like I said first -- Scripps is unequivocally your best bet.

 

[DrMidlife]

OK, just humor me here, because I ran the numbers again, in fear that I was really on crack about "best/worst" states. And I'm not on crack about CA (whew), at least by one reasonable metric. Now, I know full well this does not paint a comprehensive picture, but below is how many subsidized (and/or public) MD seats there are per in-state applicant.

- I left out USUHS and UMoKC.
- As for subsidies, Temple, for example, at over $40k instate tuition, still counts as subsidized because OOS tuition is $49k. Somebody's ponying up $9k per instate student.
- I'm not getting into DE/ME/WICHE/WWAMI agreements - too hard.
- Data's from the '10-'11 MSAR and http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2008/2008slrmat5.htm

First, some quick top tens.

Most applicants per state:
CA 4937
TX 3422
NY 2924
FL 2087
IL 1888
MI 1594
OH 1548
PA 1516
NJ 1462
GA 1252

Most public and/or subsidized seats per instate app:
VT 1.14
WV 0.71
PR 0.59
AR 0.54
KY 0.52
AL 0.50
WI 0.50
SC 0.49
OH 0.49
IN 0.44
(California is 2nd to last, for states with pub/sub schools, with 0.14.)

And the full list:
.............pub-sub.. total..pub seats.. total seats
state..apps.. seats....seats...per app.....per app
AL......500.....250......250.....0.5000.....0.5000
AR......287.....154......154.....0.5366.....0.5366
AZ......692.....158......158.....0.2283.....0.2283
CA.....4937.....695.....1105.....0.1408.....0.2238
CO......634.....156......156.....0.2461.....0.2461
CT......461......85......185.....0.1844.....0.4013
DC.......69.......0......485.....0.0000.....7.0290
FL.....2087.....668......668.....0.3201.....0.3201
GA.....1252.....280......464.....0.2236.....0.3706
HI......195......62.......62.....0.3179.....0.3179
IA......376.....148......148.....0.3936.....0.3936
IL.....1888.....380.....1111.....0.2013.....0.5885
IN......706.....308......308.....0.4363.....0.4363
KS......471.....175......175.....0.3715.....0.3715
KY......518.....268......268.....0.5174.....0.5174
LA......720.....295......473.....0.4097.....0.6569
MA......940.....114......635.....0.1213.....0.6755
MD......977.....160......278.....0.1638.....0.2845
MI.....1594.....616......616.....0.3864.....0.3864
MN......870.....230......280.....0.2644.....0.3218
MO......549......95......393.....0.1730.....0.7158
MS......301.....110......110.....0.3654.....0.3654
NC.....1074.....236......456.....0.2197.....0.4246
ND......145......62.......62.....0.4276.....0.4276
NE......304.....124......250.....0.4079.....0.8224
NH......102.......0.......78.....0.0000.....0.7647
NJ.....1462.....360......360.....0.2462.....0.2462
NM......217......75.......75.....0.3456.....0.3456
NV......152......62.......62.....0.4079.....0.4079
NY.....2924.....603.....1778.....0.2062.....0.6081
OH.....1548.....760......954.....0.4910.....0.6163
OK......385.....166......166.....0.4312.....0.4312
OR......427.....115......115.....0.2693.....0.2693
PA.....1516.....532.....1197.....0.3509.....0.7896
PR......505.....298......298.....0.5901.....0.5901
RI.......92.......0.......94.....0.0000.....1.0217
SC......502.....248......248.....0.4940.....0.4940
SD......153......54.......54.....0.3529.....0.3529
TN......762.....210......415.....0.2756.....0.5446
TX.....3422....1417.....1417.....0.4141.....0.4141
UT......528.....102......102.....0.1932.....0.1932
VA.....1040.....452......452.....0.4346.....0.4346
VT.......97.....111......111.....1.1443.....1.1443
WA......835.....216......216.....0.2587.....0.2587
WI......754.....375......375.....0.4973.....0.4973
WV......263.....187......187.....0.7110.....0.7110

 

[lifepwned]

I think the overachievers with more normal stats (3.7+ ugpa) think it's better to go to California, get Cali residence, and get a leg up for the competitive MD programs. Because my app is non-trad (JD) and will hopefully be a splitter (3.2 ugpa; higher sgpa; 32+ mcat), I think it would be very risky to go to Cali. I think I will focus on getting IL or OH residence and moving from there.

 

[drizzt3117]

I think the overachievers with more normal stats (3.7+ ugpa) think it's better to go to California, get Cali residence, and get a leg up for the competitive MD programs. Because my app is non-trad (JD) and will hopefully be a splitter (3.2 ugpa; higher sgpa; 32+ mcat), I think it would be very risky to go to Cali. I think I will focus on getting IL or OH residence and moving from there.

For some reason, I thought your uGPA was 3.4... how many credits do you have in UG?

 

[lifepwned]

I had :

7 pass credits carry over from highschool
12 pass credits carry over from study abroad

1 pass credit at the university

and then 34 graded credits. Will my GPA be weighted by the 34 graded credits, or will they weight it against the 54 total credits?

Edit:

I just realized that post-bac GPA counts towards undergrad GPA.
I'm not sure how many credits the AMSC assigns the post-bac, 12 or 16.

post-bac GPA....ugpa if 12 cr....ugpa if 16cr.
4.0..................3.41...............3.46
3.7..................3.33...............3.36
3.5..................3.27...............3.29

 

[drizzt3117]

I had :

7 pass credits carry over from highschool
12 pass credits carry over from study abroad

1 pass credit at the university

and then 24 graded credits. Will my GPA be weighted by the 24 graded credits, or will they weight it against the 54 total credits?

Edit:

I just realized that post-bac GPA counts towards undergrad GPA.
I'm not sure how many credits the AMSC assigns the post-bac, 12 or 16.

post-bac GPA....ugpa if 12 cr....ugpa if 16cr.
4.0..................3.4667............3.52
3.7..................3.3667............3.4
3.5..................3.3.................3.32

I don't understand how you only had 54 credits in your entire degree?

A postbac at somewhere like Scripps is 32 semester credits for one year.

 

[DrMidlife]

I don't understand how you only had 54 credits in your entire degree?

A postbac at somewhere like Scripps is 32 semester credits for one year.

Who knows what they mean by "credit." I usually do back-of-napkin GPA improvement calcs by assuming the ugrad was 4 years and seeing what additional years can do to it.

So with a 3.2, one more year at a 4.0 can get you to 3.36, two more years at a 4.0 can get you to a 3.47.

Also, lifepwned, high school credits are often disallowed in med school admissions. So if you have math in there, for example, and you're counting on that math to cover a school's requirements, make sure to read the fine print.

 

[lifepwned]

What I'm saying is this:

Most med applicants have 4 years of graded credit. I had only 3 years of graded credit because I spent one year abroad and that year was pass fail. On top of that, I took reduced course loads during my 3 years because I had 7 APs transfer over and I took one college class pass fail. As a result, I have really only had 2.5-2.7 years of graded credit.

A post-bac will give me 1 year of graded credit. Accordingly, whenever we look at how a post-bac will affect my GPA, we weight it against the 2.5 year GPA.


(post bac GPA * 1 ) + ( undergrad GPA * 2.5) / 3.5

 

[DrMidlife]

(post bac GPA * 1 ) + ( undergrad GPA * 2.5) / 3.5

OK. So if you 4.0 your postbac, then you max out at 3.43. Right?

An additional year of postbac at a 4.0 would put you at a reasonably comfy 3.56. Tempting...

 

[drizzt3117]

I think if they did a solid year of postbac they'd be more around 3.5... but I could be reading the OP's situation slightly wrong.

 

[Allopathic13]

I am a little confused here...even with a semester of P/F grades....it seems like a bit of a leap to get a 3.5....i did my undergrad with 136 credits...and most persons should do at least 100 credits in their undergrad....but I may be misunderstanding the situation as well.

 

[drizzt3117]

I don't really get it either. Even if you did 7 APs and say passed out of freshman year, then did an entire year abroad at pass fail, you should still have two full years which should be at least ~48 units, not 34...

 

[dzhoshua]

Very simple explanation for all this confusion - "credits" is nowhere near a universal term!

Some universities loosely correlate them to hours/week. Others, such as mine, nominally assign 4 credits to a full course and 2 credits for a half course, but use course units (1 course = 1 course unit = 4 credits) for most purposes. Still others only use course units, and sometimes just call them credits.

So, lifepwned probably took 24 graded classes in college, which in a normal semester system is about 3 years worth of classes, and assuming 1 class = 4 credits, is 96 credits.