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J-Rad

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So, it's been a little slow in the "other" cardiology forum, so I figured I'd come over for a visit :)

So I'm curious if any/many of you are seeing adult congenital heart disease patients. Enjoying it? Hate it with a passion? Anyone here thinking of doing an additional year in ACHD? Any interesting cases? I've got a couple as a newer attending peds cardiologist, but the number is more limited due to the patient population I work with (military, so most are spouses or adult dependent children).

No deep topic here, like I said, just curious.

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So, it's been a little slow in the "other" cardiology forum, so I figured I'd come over for a visit :)

So I'm curious if any/many of you are seeing adult congenital heart disease patients. Enjoying it? Hate it with a passion? Anyone here thinking of doing an additional year in ACHD? Any interesting cases? I've got a couple as a newer attending peds cardiologist, but the number is more limited due to the patient population I work with (military, so most are spouses or adult dependent children).

No deep topic here, like I said, just curious.

It would be hard for me to make that my entire career. There are so few evidence based treatments for congenital heart disease - most of the treatment is still surgical. I feel that in adult cardiology we have more direct impact on and ownership of our patients, and that's important to me. On the plus side, the anatomy is fascinating.

I thought about doing med-peds and then a cardiology fellowship focusing on congenital heart disease, but am glad I didn't. Many feel that peds and adult cardiology are so different that it's difficult to effectively straddle the two.

I could see doing ACHD if I were primarily interested in imaging, interventional, or perhaps EP (they always have crazy arrhythmias).

p diddy
 
Thank you for your thoughts. Just to stimulate discussion, I am going to respond to some points, though it is not meant to be argumentative since I understand it reflects where you've trained and the viewpoint from where you look i.e. you're not wrong, I just see things through a different lens a reader may be interested in.

It would be hard for me to make that my entire career. There are so few evidence based treatments for congenital heart disease - most of the treatment is still surgical. I feel that in adult cardiology we have more direct impact on and ownership of our patients, and that's important to me. On the plus side, the anatomy is fascinating.

I agree, I love the anatomy. It is one of the most esoteric fields in medicine and a great challenge. In some sense I would argue that there are plenty of evidence based treatments in congenital cardiology as a whole (spanning a lifetime of CHD) as evidenced by the fact that within the last few decades we've actually turned the numbers on their heads and there are more adults with congenital heart disease than children with CHD. We have kept alive a large portion of patients that were once were destined to die. That said, I agree that surgical treatments have been at the forefront of that being the case. I disagree about the direct impact and ownership part, though. When followed through their lives their (usually pediatric) cardiologists have had a great impact on their quality and quantity of lives. Surgical interventions are very intermittent and are a relatively small (by number, not impact) part of ongoing care of congenital heart patients. If anything, we are often accused (sometimes rightly so) of never letting them go, though the fact is, unfortunately, adult cardiologists usually have little to no interest in this population (when they get to adult years). While the surgeons are important, typically, the peds cardiologist/CTS teams are very collaborative and they (the surgeons) rely on us a great deal. The peds interventionalists do more than the surgeons, and they also collaborate closely with the generalists. I think the level of ownership and direct impact is actually quite high. Now, back to evidence base: I also agree that in ACHD there can be a frustrating lack of evidence, but, like I said, this is a newer population and a smaller number than coronary heart disease. It is truly frontier medicine in a sense.


I thought about doing med-peds and then a cardiology fellowship focusing on congenital heart disease, but am glad I didn't. Many feel that peds and adult cardiology are so different that it's difficult to effectively straddle the two.

I do agree that they (peds and adult cardiology) are very different outside of arrhythmias and cardiomyopathies. I do wish more adult cardiologists developed an interest in ACHD as it is possible that these patients can develop more "typical" adult heart disease (though, interstingly, I never saw much of it, even in our older patients in the cath lab when they got their coronaries shot). I'll add, though, that on top of a new set of plumbing problems to learn, the patients can often present a challenge as anxiety is common (makes sense, doesn't it?) and they can be "needy". They also require imaging expertise and their caths often take forever (a 4-6 hour case is pretty common. No turn and burn coronary cases in the peds cath lab).

I could see doing ACHD if I were primarily interested in imaging, interventional, or perhaps EP (they always have crazy arrhythmias).

Yes, these particular areas might be more interesting for the adult cardiologist.

p diddy

Thanks, again, for sharing your thoughts. Maybe others will chime in as well.
 
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So, it's been a little slow in the "other" cardiology forum, so I figured I'd come over for a visit :)

So I'm curious if any/many of you are seeing adult congenital heart disease patients. Enjoying it? Hate it with a passion? Anyone here thinking of doing an additional year in ACHD? Any interesting cases? I've got a couple as a newer attending peds cardiologist, but the number is more limited due to the patient population I work with (military, so most are spouses or adult dependent children).

No deep topic here, like I said, just curious.

Not many. I don't like it, mostly because I have to look up whatever it is that they have each and every time I see them :laugh:

-The Trifling Jester
 
So, it's been a little slow in the "other" cardiology forum, so I figured I'd come over for a visit :)

So I'm curious if any/many of you are seeing adult congenital heart disease patients. Enjoying it? Hate it with a passion? Anyone here thinking of doing an additional year in ACHD? Any interesting cases? I've got a couple as a newer attending peds cardiologist, but the number is more limited due to the patient population I work with (military, so most are spouses or adult dependent children).

No deep topic here, like I said, just curious.

There is considerable anxiety on part of both the patient and the adult cardiologist when they see each other. I like seeing ACHD patients, always something new to learn rather than checking cholesterol every 3-6 months. I chose ACHD clinic as my continuity clinic for my 3rd year, loved every day of it.
 
There is considerable anxiety on part of both the patient and the adult cardiologist when they see each other. I like seeing ACHD patients, always something new to learn rather than checking cholesterol every 3-6 months. I chose ACHD clinic as my continuity clinic for my 3rd year, loved every day of it.

Cool. You seem to be a somewhat rare bird. Definitely something to learn with every one. It can be a challenge when you are poring through 30+ years of charts, but sometimes feels like you're stepping through a time machine when you need to do so. It's also interesting when they had some archaic, nearly forgotten procedure (WTH moment for me: what is a Baffe procedure?!). I was amused once when doing a chart review on a 38 year old with free PI from her intitial Brock procedure for PS. She had a follow up cath as a toddler and the 3rd year fellow listed was our second eldest statesman who would have just retired this past academic year. I said "Hey, Larry, I've got an old patient of yours..."
 
Cool. You seem to be a somewhat rare bird. Definitely something to learn with every one. It can be a challenge when you are poring through 30+ years of charts, but sometimes feels like you're stepping through a time machine when you need to do so. It's also interesting when they had some archaic, nearly forgotten procedure (WTH moment for me: what is a Baffe procedure?!). I was amused once when doing a chart review on a 38 year old with free PI from her intitial Brock procedure for PS. She had a follow up cath as a toddler and the 3rd year fellow listed was our second eldest statesman who would have just retired this past academic year. I said "Hey, Larry, I've got an old patient of yours..."

One of the patients had BT shunt performed by Blalock himself. A couple of them were featured in local newspapers as some sort of wonder kids who got some new form of corrective surgeries during their times.
 
JRad,
Thanks for the post of a very relevant topic.
First, I agree w/the comment above...often the patient has some anxiety, and the adult cardiologist has some anxiety when meeting the first few times. Often the adult patients don't want to leave their pediatric cardiologist.
I have a bit of an issue with your saying that adult cardiologists are "not interested" in congenital patients. I think that is true of some, and particularly the interventional guys...honestly they got into this to fix CAD and they have a ton of stuff to learn in dealing with how to place coronary and peripheral stents (much, much more complicated to do in some cases than I ever realized before I started fellowship). There are adult interventional cases that also go 3 or 4 hrs, because of their complexity...though that is not the norm of course.

I think the problem is more one of lack of training and lack of exposure. At my program we didn't have an opportunity to attend congenital or pediatric cardiology clinics at all. The only exposure I got to congenital heart disease was a few lectures/grand rounds type things, and couldn't attend 100% of those due to clinical duties, though I made most of them. The only other exposure I got was reading occasional echocardiograms of patients with something like transposition of the great vessels.

The ACC is now pushing to try to have adult cardiologists take care of more congenital patients, but I don't think you'll get a lot of takers. They are trying to promote an extra year or two of superfellowship/subspecialty fellowship, but I don't think they'll get a lot of takers. Honestly, a lot of these fellows who will be coming out soon for 3 yrs of cards fellowship have 200 or 300k in loans or more. It's madness to think that a significant number of people are going to agree to another year or two of fellowship to get paid the same (or probably less...if doing a lot or most CHF and congenital hrt dz management). The only people doing these fellowships are going to be very very motivated academic types. In my new job (private practice type) they want me to see patients Q15 minutes. In that setting a patient with complex congenital hrt disease might become undesirable...I hate that our medical system has come to this, but it is what it is. Personally, I find congenital hrt disease very interesting. I just took echo boards and it was an important topic on there.
 
I also agree about the lack of evidence base for treating these patients.
I think the person above was not talking about evidence base for treating pediatric patients...you guys may have that and I assume you do have data about which surgical approaches are better, timing of doing surgery, etc.I think he/she was talking about lack of evidence and/or guidelines about what to do with these patients when they are adults. I looked it up recently and there are not many specific guidelines from ACC, etc. about exactly what to do with these patients. I had attendings ask me what I found regarding specific meds to use, etc. That really was not available...it's basically just treat the CHF (if it occurs) like any other CHF. Remember, in adult cardiology we have a gazillion studies and guidelines that we are used to following (significant vascular dz gets LDL lowered to <70, systolic CHF class III gets carvedilol, ACE-I and aldactone, LVEF of <35 after optimal medical therapy gets an ICD, etc.). I think a lot of us are just a bit unsure of ourselves when we get in a situation that is more free-form...it's a result of our training. These patients, especially if postop, are just all going to be a little different, right?
 
I think that the tide of ACHD patients is coming (if already not here). Believe it or not, the number of ACHD adults exceeds pediatric CHD patients. However, the number of ACHD cardiologists is a fraction of number of pediatric cardiologists. A lot of pediatric cardiologists are holding on to their patients either because they can't find any trained adult cardiologist to refer to or >60% patients just get lost to follow-up. Insurance is another major factor. As soon as they become adults >26, they fall off their parents insurance further exacerbating the issue. I think that when insurance becomes mandatory in 2014, there will be a huge deluge of these patients in the clinics. However, I agree that putting in an additional year of fellowship does not make sense at least from economic standpoint of view although I still like it.
 
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