Yet another New Grad Compensation Question

[Aspire2019]

Hello All.
I have a question regarding compensation.
Assuming bread and butter dentistry, in a suburb of a mid-western county with population of about a million (county in which the practice is located has the population of about 500k) - what would be a reasonable expectation of average collection (assuming good collection practices) per doc per month for a practice that is FFS and PPO based.
As a new grad, I am being offered a position that has a minimum guarantee/25% collection whichever is higher.
Trying to makes sense of this structure and is 25% a norm or should I be negotiating on this %?

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[zToothinator]

Is this a private practice or corp? If it’s a corp contract (sounds like Heartland), then the % is non-negotiable. All of theirs docs have the same 25%. If it’s a private office, I think 30-35% is the norm.

 

[Aspire2019]

Is this a private practice or corp? If it’s a corp contract (sounds like Heartland), then the % is non-negotiable. All of theirs docs have the same 25%. If it’s a private office, I think 30-35% is the norm.


thanks for the response and insight. Yes it is a corp. Does the volume make up for the low % once you catch speed? Otherwise how do they compete for docs?

 

[zToothinator]

I'm still a D3 so I have no clue. From talking with Heartland, they argue, like you said, that the volume makes up for the lower %. They also mentioned bonuses and opportunities to buy in also increasing your take-home pay.

 

[P7898]

I'm still a D3 so I have no clue. From talking with Heartland, they argue, like you said, that the volume makes up for the lower %. They also mentioned bonuses and opportunities to buy in also increasing your take-home pay.

Yeah but it is still 25%. From what I have read, go to an office that has patient's (not one of their denovo) and even then it is hard to reach $150k there. You really need to buy in to exceed that. Like $800k as an associate is tough work but doable - but that with 25% is only $200k and on top of that you have to make sure their collection rates are high. So I would avoid that.

 

[AONLINE]

OP, try to find a job that would pay you a guarantee of at least $150k, not a draw like Heartland.

 

[Aspire2019]

OP, try to find a job that would pay you a guarantee of at least $150k, not a draw like Heartland.

Thanks for the insight. DSOs are the ones which have most openings and are willing to recruit quickly. Private practice jobs seem to be few and far between.
Also as a new grad I am looking for a guaranteed minimum and then a production/collection based percentage(to manage my risk while I catch speed). Although 25% seems a bit low.

 

[P7898]

Thanks for the insight. DSOs are the ones which have most openings and are willing to recruit quickly. Private practice jobs seem to be few and far between.
Also as a new grad I am looking for a guaranteed minimum and then a production/collection based percentage(to manage my risk while I catch speed). Although 25% seems a bit low.

There are good gigs for DSO's out there. But just don't bite on the first one that bashes their eye lashes at you. Look at multiple places and leverage offers.

 

[schmoob]

As a new grad you will have a tough time breaking the minimum. For example if it’s $600 a day, you have to break $2400 in production a day just to start making $25% of the difference.

Heartland also sends out a daily production worksheet of ALL doctor’s previous days production. The same names are always at the top producing like $100K every day which I never understood. They will also heavily push Invisalign marketing.

 

[Aspire2019]

As a new grad you will have a tough time breaking the minimum. For example if it’s $600 a day, you have to break $2400 in production a day just to start making $25% of the difference.

Heartland also sends out a daily production worksheet of ALL doctor’s previous days production. The same names are always at the top producing like $100K every day which I never understood. They will also heavily push Invisalign marketing.

What do you think of another DSOs offer of daily guarantee of 700 with 8 to 10% of total office profit. They do not have any restrictive covenant or minimum term. Although they do have 90 day notice period - which everyone has.

 

[Digitalangel]

What do you think of another DSOs offer of daily guarantee of 700 with 8 to 10% of total office profit. They do not have any restrictive covenant or minimum term. Although they do have 90 day notice period - which everyone has.

Sounds like Aspen, you will never ever get that 8-10%. I think I got it like once. The no restrictive convenant is nice cause you can gtfo easily. Also theres a "90 day notice" but its not really required, they will let you go beforehand anyways. I worked for both the big corps (Aspen and Heartland), they both suck but do give a foundation for speed and skills. If i redid it I would do 6mo corp and gtfo asap. work life balance sucks, pay sucks. Heartland did pay more though (although i was more experienced by then), and base salary was nice and you can take vacation easier and have more freedom imo

 

[Aspire2019]

Sounds like Aspen, you will never ever get that 8-10%. I think I got it like once. The no restrictive convenant is nice cause you can gtfo easily. Also theres a "90 day notice" but its not really required, they will let you go beforehand anyways. I worked for both the big corps (Aspen and Heartland), they both suck but do give a foundation for speed and skills. If i redid it I would do 6mo corp and gtfo asap. work life balance sucks, pay sucks. Heartland did pay more though (although i was more experienced by then), and base salary was nice and you can take vacation easier and have more freedom imo

Thanks for the inputs. So if at all, I should negotiate in a higher daily minimum.
One more Q - was there a good procedure mix or was it heavy on one procedure?

 

[Digitalangel]

Thanks for the inputs. So if at all, I should negotiate in a higher daily minimum.
One more Q - was there a good procedure mix or was it heavy on one procedure?

Aspen is a denture mill so you will get really good at full mouth extractions/partials/dentures. my owner doc limited the schedule where they couldnt have more than one filling appt in morning/aftternoon. some crowns/endo here and there (because i love endo, most docs refer it). its also area dependent but extractions and dentures are the focus. doesnt make sense to schedule 200$ filling when you can have a 4k ext/delivery appt. although i hated it there, i am thankful that im really good at extractions now though lol

 

[Digitalangel]

and yes, absolutely get the highest base you can because both those corps do everything they can to not let you bonus

 

[Aspire2019]

and yes, absolutely get the highest base you can because both those corps do everything they can to not let you bonus

Another thing with DSOs is that they do not want to share numbers. Although compensation includes a % of collection/production/profit they are reluctant to share avg numbers per doc in the office to understand the potential of that office.
One office had a overall collection % of only in high 60s. As far as I know it should be in high 90s. Am I wrong?
Anyone had a different experience?

 

[maruprime]

I love these discussions about salary, because then everyone can compare and make sure they are not getting screwed over. Yes, the common structure is a base daily/yearly salary or a percentage of collection (whichever is higher). 25-28% sounds normal in the midwest. I'd like to hear if you are successful at negotiating a higher base or percentage, as from personal experience, and that of my colleagues, that corporations don't negotiate at all.

 

[P7898]

I love these discussions about salary, because then everyone can compare and make sure they are not getting screwed over. Yes, the common structure is a base daily/yearly salary or a percentage of collection (whichever is higher). 25-28% sounds normal in the midwest. I'd like to hear if you are successful at negotiating a higher base or percentage, as from personal experience, and that of my colleagues, that corporations don't negotiate at all.

I would say a good fair offer is $150k base salary versus 30% of adjusted production. Idc where you are. For everyone looking at this forum this is what (In my opinion) a new dentist is worth (at the minimum). Then tack on benefits.

 

[Aspire2019]

Another question for experienced docs here.
The DSO I am looking at only offers claims made malpractice policy. I want occurance based but they do not offer it and I have to join their policy, if I accept the position.

Question is - When the time comes to leave his DSO, how bad would it bite to buy tail coverage. Can they demand anything because at that point I essentially have no negotiation position.

Any thoughts?

 

[P7898]

Another question for experienced docs here.
The DSO I am looking at only offers claims made malpractice policy. I want occurance based but they do not offer it and I have to join their policy, if I accept the position.

Question is - When the time comes to leave his DSO, how bad would it bite to buy tail coverage. Can they demand anything because at that point I essentially have no negotiation position.

Any thoughts?

I would get occurrence and claims made so you are covered. I personally have both but new grads you can get supplemental coverage for claims and occurrence from $2-$6 million for like $100 for the whole year. But I would get supplemental.

 

[P7898]

I'm still a D3 so I have no clue. From talking with Heartland, they argue, like you said, that the volume makes up for the lower %. They also mentioned bonuses and opportunities to buy in also increasing your take-home pay.

That is the scam though. They give you 25% and then if you buy into the stock they offer you get 10% revenue of hygiene now so you may be at 30% total because hygiene is only a fraction of the total practice production (I am using 50% to be generous). So now you are back to what you would of had at another office at 30% production.

 

[P7898]

^On top of that $250k more debt that you used to buy heartland stock.