WSU clinical year

[whateverforever]

For anyone who goes to WSU - what is the 4th year schedule like at the:
Is there a max hours limit for rotations? In the VTH or elsewhere?
Mandatory time between shifts?
How much on call is typically required?
Do you get breaks? How many per shift and how long are they?


I do work 16 hour shifts where I'm at now occasionally but I definitely need time for rest because if I am too chronically sleep deprived it really exacerbates a medical condition I have. Trying to get an idea of whether I need to put in for a reasonable accommodation from the get go. I've def got some imposter syndrome about asking for accommodations so I'm hoping to not have to go that route but on the other hand I would like to have it documented earlier rather than later, if it'll be necessary down the road.

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[SkiOtter]

@MixedAnimals77

 

[MixedAnimals77]

@MixedAnimals77

@CoffeeQuestionMark because they changed the 4th year schedule after I left so most of my knowledge is useless.

 

[SkiOtter]

@CoffeeQuestionMark because they changed the 4th year schedule after I left so most of my knowledge is useless.

Ope jk 😂

Don’t you love when they do that 😂😂😂

 

[RightMeow!]

No personal experience yet, but reading through the 4th year survival guide from C/O 2023 it seems very rotation dependent. Some of the services like radiology are listed as being 8am - 5pm with no weekends. The bigger rotations like internal/equine med are listed as being 7am - 7pm for 6 days a week with on-call shifts. Someone wrote that during soft tissue surgery they had 12+ hour days every single day.

I don't think there is a max hour limit or mandatory time off between shifts currently. I have heard stories of some poor souls getting off after a 7am - 7pm shift, being called-in at 9pm until like 4am, then having to be back at the VTH 7am - 7pm again the next day. I can't tell you how common that is though. For what it's worth, the current 4th years submitted a proposal for at least 10 hours between shifts. I don't know if they have made a decision on that yet.

Lunch seems to be 20-30min for the busy services and 1 hour for some of the other rotations. Breaks seem to be more rare, but some rotations like anesthesia have them.

 

[whateverforever]

@rightmeow oof. Thanks for the response. Any chance you'd be willing to send me that guide? If not, that's okay.

More questions that you probably don't know the answer to haha: Are these rotations with on call that you speak of required rotations or are they elective? Do you get to see the schedule before you sign up for them?

Also, do you happen to know, are state labor laws applicable to us as students? I'd assume not but can hope, I guess.

 

[RightMeow!]

Are these rotations with on call that you speak of required rotations or are they elective?

Required. My understanding is that most core rotations have on call hours. Soft tissue, ortho, and SA/LA ICU are probably going to call you in more frequently than others, though. There may be a few electives that do as well, but I'm not sure which ones.

Do you get to see the schedule before you sign up for them?

Before you submit your preferences, you'll have some meetings where clinicians will talk and answer questions about their rotations. You'll also hear stories from the class ahead of you and they might make a survival guide as well. You're definitely not signing up blindly. You can also change your schedule later on too, so it's not really set in stone if you get a rotation you don't want. Unless it's a core rotation, which everyone has to take.

do you happen to know, are state labor laws applicable to us as students?

No clue about state laws. There are SAVMA guidelines for 4th year rotations, but they're just suggestions. It sounds like some rotations are good about it and others just need warm bodies.

I'll PM you a copy of the survival guide. It doesn't have all the rotations filled out, but some of them have good info.

 

[MixedAnimals77]

State labor laws do no apply or else everyone in vet school across the country would've rioted by now. There's a push to try and follow SAVMA guidelines but they're exactly that-guidelines. It truly depends when you're taking the rotation and just how busy the rotation happens to be during that block. I was personally always gone from the hospital for at least 8-12 hours pretty consistently. The one time I stayed until 3am for a hemi I got to come in late the next day. That was by far the one time I stayed the longest (8am-3am). That being said I was offered breaks to go snack, use the restroom and ate lunch that day before the ER came in. That being said some of my classmates had worse luck than others. In regards to on-call it changed after my year especially on the big ER/anesethesia block. Before it was core rotation were required on-call ie soft tissue surgery, when you were on IM you were back up to ER. You're likely still on-call for STS and equine/barn rotations. I know we advocated back up ER on call students be pulled from less intensive rotations like elective radiology but coffee? can answer those things better. Overall I found 4th year less sleep depriving and stressful than the previous years, but n1 experience. I had a classmate that had narcolepsy and they made it through pretty well to my understanding. My recommendation is get the accomodations you need so you have them and use them if you need. Some rotations are great about your health mentally and physically accomodations or not while other rotations could care less and unfortunately depends on the service and specifically clinicians in charge. Some of my longer days were eq surgery but it was just me and my bff on the rotation so were were at the barn like 6-6 but it was doable for 2 weeks.

 

[whateverforever]

@MixedAnimals77 yeah I guess I'll start working on that request now. I will definitely not be working 8AM-3AM, grade be dammed. Sounds like WSU vet students need to unionize.

 

[CoffeeQuestionMark]

I can give you information from this current year, not speaking to external rotations.

Is there a max hours limit for rotations? In the VTH or elsewhere?
There is not a hard-set limit, no. Most departments recognize the SAVMA guidelines and generally do look out for your wellness. For example, if you have to stay really late one day, there is a good chance they will allow you to come late the next day.
Mandatory time between shifts?
Not currently in place.
How much on call is typically required? See below
Do you get breaks? How many per shift and how long are they?
There aren't set breaks. This doesn't mean you don't get breaks. YOU have to dictate your own breaks. If it is late afternoon and you haven't had lunch you have to let people know and get help so you can get something to eat. I always am planning ahead - if my first appointment is at 11am, I eat before the appointment because I know I'll be in diagnostics for a while. If you aren't actively seeing a patient you can generally just go do your own thing, and this can be for *hours*. I've never seen it be an issue with people having to leave in the middle for a doctor's appointment or something just as long as you communicate really well.

Day start: Starts at 7am for most hospital rotations with patient care. Earlier for rotations with intensive patient care (can be different on a day-to-day basis) which may include soft tissue surgery, equine surgery, and neurology. Certain hospital rotations (community practice, oncology, cardiology) you are less likely to have patient care but it is still possible. I have oncology on there but they very commonly have patients to care for, just they are usually not hospitalized so you don't even need to get there until closer to like 7:45. If you have no patient care (radiology, anesthesia) it starts at 8. ICU varies (you work a week of each day, swing, and overnights).

Day end: So variable!!! The latest I've stayed on a regular work day was around 8pm a single day on neuro. For ME, it has been rare I've left ever later than 7pm. Average is probably 6pm. There was someone from one of my rotations that had to stay until 12am one night to do a blood transfusion when everyone else was out by 6pm, so unfortunately it is very luck of the draw.

On-Call: You have the potential to be on-call for ICU any day of the week while on a small animal rotation in the hospital (excluding ICU, anesthesia, surgery). I don't know how many on-call shifts I've had in the year (I'm just going to guess 12) but I was never actually called in on one of these. Someone in my class was on-call 48 hours in a row over a holiday weekend (and I honestly don't understand how this could've happened because the shifts are only 8 hours) and had to be at the hospital for 36 of those 48 hours. You have 2-3 on-call shifts while you're on anesthesia. You have 1-2 on-call shifts on both SA SX rotations. You have 1-2 on-call shifts for neuro. I was only ever called in for anesthesia. I had a long surgery (from 5pm-11pm) and was allowed to come in late the next day (10am), and when I was called in the next shift at 5am I was allowed to leave early.

Weekend duty: Weekend duty is extremely common. Most times patient care runs 7-8am. You'll have to stay longer if you got an intensive transfer, or have a discharge over the weekend. I knew of one unfortunate internal medicine transfer team that got stuck there for 14 hours one Saturday doing blood transfusions. That was a freak weekend, it is not a normal occurrence. Weekend care can get divided up differently where you might have one weekend off for rotation and work the other, or split it up Saturday/Sunday instead. On barn rotations you can have primary care weekend duty (at the barn 8-5, whether or not doing treatments) or back-up (on-call) based on a lottery.

Overnights: You have one week of small animal overnights; these shifts currently run 9pm-8am. You have two weeks of large animal overnights. These are split with a swing shift (5pm-12am for one week, 12am-7am for one week) Unfortunately, this later shift does have to show up at 5pm for rounds and is only dismissed after rounds (around 6:30pm) if is quiet enough, and they remain on-call until their shift starts. So, there is a possibility to have to be in the barn from 5pm-7am.

Extra-special rotations: For ultimate work-life balance, enjoy the odd schedule of Clin Path (1 week elective), Necropsy (2 week core), Small Ruminants (2 week ag choice), and Anesthesia (3 week core). These are special rotations that have irregular hours. For example, in necropsy your day usually runs 1-5pm. In Small Ruminants 8am-12pm (depending on season). Anesthesia, runs 8am-5pm but you can go home if you do not have a case, or once you finish your case.

 

[whateverforever]

@CoffeeQuestionMark thanks for the info. Do you get breaks (winter/spring/thanksgiving) during the clinical year?

 

[CoffeeQuestionMark]

@CoffeeQuestionMark thanks for the info. Do you get breaks (winter/spring/thanksgiving) during the clinical year?

You have 9 vacation weeks. One is automatically given to either the week of Christmas or the week of New Year. The other 8 weeks are ranked along with the rest of your rotations. Because there are not many 1-week rotations, usually the vacations will be given in 2-week blocks.

 

[supershorty]

You have 9 vacation weeks. One is automatically given to either the week of Christmas or the week of New Year. The other 8 weeks are ranked along with the rest of your rotations. Because there are not many 1-week rotations, usually the vacations will be given in 2-week blocks.

Holy toledo. 9?!
Do you have separate blocks for externships/off-site rotations, or are they all bundled together in that 9?

 

[CoffeeQuestionMark]

Holy toledo. 9?!
Do you have separate blocks for externships/off-site rotations, or are they all bundled together in that 9?

There are a limited number of externships that you can receive credit for. I think you can get credit for 2 weeks of a place of your choosing and 2 weeks at a government institution of your choosing.
Lots of other elective off-site rotations - mostly large animal. Shelter medicine (core), ophtho, derm (new - was not available for our year), and dentistry I believe are the small-animal oriented ones that are off-site. But you only have 12 weeks of elective rotations, and 2 of those weeks you are forced into a PCA (no idea what it stands for, but essentially a random in-hospital rotation that needs more students to meet the minimum). So essentially 10 weeks of electives. I think some people do use their vacation time to do additional externships.

 

[MixedAnimals77]

@MixedAnimals77 yeah I guess I'll start working on that request now. I will definitely not be working 8AM-3AM, grade be dammed. Sounds like WSU vet students need to unionize.

Mine was an unfortunate hemi that came in at like 4pm into ER and I was the on call anesthesia person. It also wasn't like I was working straight from 8-3 the anesthesia rotation was pretty chill. Hemi's just take forever because they have to go to MRI followed directly by a lengthy surgery. It honestly wasn't that terrible; plus like a hemi is an acutal emergency. 4th year is not perfect but WSU's schedule has sounded better than some schools I've read about imo. As a student you are not by definition an employee or earning wages so unionizing does 0. I get staying late is not for anyone and everyone of course wants to get out on time and not stay late. Most rotations get that. IDK; it is what it is in my opinion and most rotations try not to keep you super late regularly. My friend actually got sent home early on her neuro rotation because she had been in on call and took someone else's call so they could do something and since she had taken so much on call they actually sent her home even though she hadn't really stayed all that later either time. I had the most freedom in 4th year compared to years 1-3 in my experience. It wasn't a big deal to me overall-however I'm also one of the few practitioners that lives in the middle of nowhere, my base salary is 1/2 of what my city friends bases are and I do on call; but I love it. It makes me happy. I was at work until 9pm on Friday doing an emergency, but I understand it's not for everyone. Just know each year classes advocate for change to try and make life better for the next class and it's always a continual work in progress. Hopefully Coffee? answered most of your questions so you can take the most appropriate action for your situation to take care of yourself because that's what's ultimately most important!

 

[whateverforever]

Yeah I'm old and jaded and have worked in a passion field for a long time and really not into the idea of just accepting things that suck because "that's why way it is" anymore. I'm tired. Sacrificing physical and mental health and forsaking caring for yourself doesn't help you learn better or do a better job. Training people to expect to be overworked is really lame. I'm not expecting a 40 hour week - just expecting something that isn't like, exploitive. Hopefully things will be manageable so that I don't have to advocate too much, but I will if I need to. This discussion has definitely turned into me wondering if I need to get accommodations to firing me up and wondering out what I need to do to organize folks when I start classes 🤣

As a student you are not by definition an employee or earning wages so unionizing does 0.

Gotta disagree here. Apprentices (plumbers, electricians etc) are often unionized and also paid so it most definitely can be done. Irish nursing students even organized for pay during the pandemic! In Michigan, some cosmetology actually filed a lawsuit for being used as free labor and won. (See: Cosmetology students win key ruling in dispute over labor ) Grad student unions exists at loads of schools.
If the free labor stands up for themselves, the school would surely take notice. Not arguing we need to organize for pay, but there's no reason not to try and make life manageable for ourselves. In my experience, my union which ironically also represents some WSU faculty and which I am very involved with has fought for benefits/less mandatory overtime/fair treatment far more often than they've fought for our wages. And if it's the 4th years that make the most difference I'm happy to organize alongside them!

Okay, anyway I appreciate your feedback and explanation of the circumstances. Sounds like it won't be all bad. And with 9 weeks of vacation, there's some time for rest. And with that I will end my rant... I should probably get back to work.

 

[dyachei]

Usually clinical years rely on students for staffing. It's exploitative in that way. There are many positions in vet med still where you do have to work until another vet comes in etc. So yes, most of the time, you're doing more than 40 hrs a week.

I can't speak for WSU specifically. I never had 80 hr weeks like you see in human med while i was on rotation at UTK

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

This discussion has definitely turned into me wondering if I need to get accommodations to firing me up and wondering out what I need to do to organize folks when I start classes 🤣

I would just be careful with this. Coming from a current house officer in academia, there is a marked difference between students who have personal boundaries and respectfully advocate for themselves to follow those and students who have a chip on their shoulder and very loudly proclaim it for all the hospital to hear.

I have students who I will ask to do something and will tell me they haven't eaten yet that shift and are able to do it but they need a snack first/ask if they can take a break first. I'm happy to see them taking care of themselves and even if it is inconvenient for me will make it work. Then we get emails where students have been complaining to the department chair and saying that I as a clinician should be scheduling them breaks on ER and following them around making sure they took them. Similarly, at shift end (students have a set end time) if we don't realize the time some students will break in and mention that although they are learning they need to get sleep since they work the next day so they need to head out. This is compared to other students who dramatically sigh and make snarky comments if they are still there 2 minutes after shift end. The end result is the same, but the former set of students comes across a lot better than the latter. You can advocate for yourself without being labeled as a problem student, it just depends on how you go about it.

I'm not implying you will be one of those students, but I would just be careful of your tone when having these discussions with the school and your clinicians while you are on clinics to not come across in a way you do not intend.

 

[whateverforever]

@TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo yeah I mean I don't really care about being labeled a problem, like I said, I am very active in my union and I've proudly carried that label before🤣 But in all honesty, I am who I am. I'm not a person to complain and not DO something about it. I'm proud of what I stand for, and I'm not gonna sit down and shut up but I do at least have the tact to be able to get things done.

I'm sure you mean well for your students and obviously you care about their learning and maybe I am interpreting this wrong but your comments sounds like your students schedule/workload/well being are more of an after thought. It's kind of an expectation of most people who are in charge of others to know what their subordinates schedules are. If people don't feel like they can or have time to eat/break, and are leaving late then maybe you should try figuring out how to schedule those breaks. I have managed people at my job, and it was my responsibility to make sure they had their breaks and likewise have been on the other side of that situation. I have also worked places where my breaks were totally up to me. But I can see how students concerned about grades/judgement, may be worried about taking breaks if they aren't directly authorized.

 

[JaynaAli]

The only people more overworked than students in a veterinary teaching hospital are interns and residents like @TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo.

I guarantee the interns and residents are putting in far more hours than the students on a daily basis. I’m not saying it’s right and I honestly think the whole institution needs an overhaul, but I guarantee that when that house officer lets a student go early because they’ve been there for a long time or whatever, they’re picking up the slack themselves.

 

[whateverforever]

@JaynaAli yeah, I've seen that in internships in private practice and I agree the ones I've seen have gotten a pretty raw deal. They should also be fighting for better conditions and fair compensation. Seems like they'd make good allies. No need to eat their young.

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

@TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo yeah I mean I don't really care about being labeled a problem, like I said, I am very active in my union and I've proudly carried that label before🤣 But in all honesty, I am who I am. I'm not a person to complain and not DO something about it. I'm proud of what I stand for, and I'm not gonna sit down and shut up but I do at least have the tact to be able to get things done.

I'm sure you mean well for your students and obviously you care about their learning and maybe I am interpreting this wrong but your comments sounds like your students schedule/workload/well being are more of an after thought. It's kind of an expectation of most people who are in charge of others to know what their subordinates schedules are. If people don't feel like they can or have time to eat/break, and are leaving late then maybe you should try figuring out how to schedule those breaks. I have managed people at my job, and it was my responsibility to make sure they had their breaks and likewise have been on the other side of that situation. I have also worked places where my breaks were totally up to me. But I can see how students concerned about grades/judgement, may be worried about taking breaks if they aren't directly authorized.

The tact is the point I was trying to make. Communication is a two way street and as soon as someone comes in with a chip on their shoulder, it’s really hard for productive conversations to occur. I was very recently on the student side of it so I agree. I think it is stupid for students to be spending their whole shift doing triages/treatments/discharges because that is not where the maximal learning happens and at that point they are cheap labour. My institution has ramped up on paid student employees running the triaging which is ideal because it allows both the clinical students and myself to focus on cases (because as Jayne mentioned, if a student isn’t doing it that means I’m doing it). I also will often just do paperwork/discharges for the students if I can tell they are busy, or if it looks like they have the opportunity to do a procedure or be more involved in something cool with another doctor.

In an ER setting, I respectfully disagree about me needing to individually be aware of every single students schedule. There are 3-6+ students taking cases between 3+ doctors, and our ER is a busy one. I have no idea what is happening on other cases medically, and no way of knowing what those students responsibilities are for those cases. That is where it is up to me to check in on them, but also their responsibly to let me know what their workload is looking like. Students get a pretty classic panic/deer in headlights look when they are getting overwhelmed and I think as a clinician it is my responsibility to recognize that, let them know it is okay to be overwhelmed, and then not stack additional work on top of that when they are at that point. I also think it is important to make it very clear to students that they can (respectfully) speak up for their needs, and then when they do to encourage that and accommodate it to train good habits into them that they will need going forward. Because as a graduated doctor (at least in the ER setting), no one is going to follow you around making sure you eat or break. It’s up to you to advocate for yourself, and that is something we should be trying to get students in the habit of doing during school. And yes, students can be afraid to do so due to grades or getting attitude; there were definitely house officers I was not comfortable speaking out to when I was a student. I think that culture is something that needs to change, and is frustrates me when I see it from clinicians. But in order to be able to change that, we also need 2-way respectful communication where students understand our limits and our attempts to help. No, I physically do not have the powers to map out a students schedule when they are working with 3+ doctors and our caseload changes by the minute. Do they want to change it so that a student is assigned one specific doctor their whole shift so that I can do that? There are pros and cons to that approach. Do you want a set pre-determined break each day where you vanish no matter what is going on? Sure, but then the trade off is you don’t get to complain about missing out on case decisions or procedures during that time if that is when a nurse happens to be free for sedation or when the patient decides to try and die. But these pros/cons discussions can’t happen when what you get from students is “I need to be out on time it’s your responsibility figure it out”.

I don’t want students to be at work late. I’m often at work additional hours late because I tell them to scram and I’ll finish their work, or because I took time I could have been doing paperwork/other cases to sit down and dive into case discussions when they wanted to. But it is the responsibility of everyone including the students to make that happen, not just me.

 

[SkiOtter]

yeah I mean I don't really care about being labeled a problem

Not gonna lie, this is a poor attitude to go into school/clinics with.

I'm sure you mean well for your students and obviously you care about their learning and maybe I am interpreting this wrong but your comments sounds like your students schedule/workload/well being are more of an after thought. It's kind of an expectation of most people who are in charge of others to know what their subordinates schedules are. If people don't feel like they can or have time to eat/break, and are leaving late then maybe you should try figuring out how to schedule those breaks

You’re allowed to advocate for yourself but it is NOT anyone else’s responsibility to schedule breaks for you when THEY don’t even get breaks. There is not the ability to schedule breaks in clinics, especially not ER where you don’t know when things are coming in to even schedule things. You take a break when you need to or get a chance. It is not a clinician or house officers responsibility to keep track of full ass adults and make sure they’re leaving on time. They need to do that for themselves. At my school we had three shifts of ER students. They overlapped. It is your own responsibility to be like “hey my shift is over I really need to leave” than a house officer knowing what time you came in and what time you’re scheduled until.

 

[finnickthedog]

Because as a graduated doctor (at least in the ER setting), no one is going to follow you around making sure you eat or break.

Even as a GP in a small practice, no one is making sure that I eat lunch or leave on time. I absolutely get to--but I'm the one keeping track of that.

 

[Trilt]

I'm sure you mean well for your students and obviously you care about their learning and maybe I am interpreting this wrong but your comments sounds like your students schedule/workload/well being are more of an after thought. It's kind of an expectation of most people who are in charge of others to know what their subordinates schedules are. If people don't feel like they can or have time to eat/break, and are leaving late then maybe you should try figuring out how to schedule those breaks. I have managed people at my job, and it was my responsibility to make sure they had their breaks and likewise have been on the other side of that situation. I have also worked places where my breaks were totally up to me. But I can see how students concerned about grades/judgement, may be worried about taking breaks if they aren't directly authorized.

I don't treat my technicians like a toddler who needs to be told when snack time is. They know their shifts. They know when they need to eat or need a break.

I'm going to facilitate that as much as possible, but it absolutely is not the highest priority on my brain because the runs full of hospitalized patients and grieving clients are already taking up vast amounts of mental reserves. That doesn't mean my techs are an after thought - I am literally one of the doctors who will most fiercely advocate, and who they know to grab to tell clients to calm tf down - but I absolutely assume they are capable of feeding and resting themselves on a reasonable schedule, lol.

 

[whateverforever]

Calling me a problem or being "concerned about my attitude" for wanting change and thinking about burnout/wellness is really a big part of the problem in my opinion and I'm not sure why what I do at my school matters to anyone without skin in this game. But I do understand that being assertive if you haven't really ever done that before feels disruptive and unprofessional and can be scary for some people and so I won't hold your opinions of me against you. I will keep telling everyone I meet that asserting yourself is a strength, not a weakness.

In the last year I've *personally* have helped at least a dozen people get raises, helped several people get missing pay or incentives that weren't on their paychecks, fought for and won safe staffing and appropriate documentation/follow up for workplace injuries, got my job to buy and train people on safety equipment, helped more than a few people navigate the FMLA process, helped fight for a change to our mandatory overtime policy and fought for a person to not have their probation extended. I've worked alongside a lot of other awesome people too who've taught me a lot. I worked for 3 years as an advocate for folks with developmental disabilities too. And like I said before I LOVE THIS ABOUT MYSELF. I'm proud af of who I am and what I stand for. I'm not for everyone, and that's okay! "Go find less."

If anyone on here wants to support me, has actual ideas for change etc I'm all ears. The "yeah things needs to change, everyone is treated poorly get used it, I suffered so you should suffer and planning to advocate is a bad attitude to have" is not something I will ever subscribe to and I'm gonna keep doing what I do.

Edit: I will also have y'all know. I literally DROPPED OUT OF VET SCHOOL because my school had almost no support. You know what they have now, 11 years later? LCSW's dedicated to the vet students with free appointments. Big thank you to all the vets who've advocated for the "NOMV" campaign, and the students who told the schools what they needed. Probably wouldn't have considered going back if I didn't see people ahead of me blazing the trail of change. <3

 

[battie]

had the most freedom in 4th year compared to years 1-3 in my experience.

Completely agree. I finished so many books and videogames during clinics. Kinda cheated cause I was COVID clinics for the whole year. But still, so much more freedom.

Just know each year classes advocate for change to try and make life better for the next class and it's always a continual work in progress.

#howlifeworks

Gotta disagree here. Apprentices (plumbers, electricians etc) are often unionized and also paid so it most definitely can be done. Irish nursing students even organized for pay during the pandemic! In Michigan, some cosmetology actually filed a lawsuit for being used as free labor and won. (See: Cosmetology students win key ruling in dispute over labor ) Grad student unions exists at loads of schools.

These are exceptions, not the rule. Particularly the nurse situation with it being not in the US and during a significant public health crisis.

I absolutely agree that the system for clinical year in health careers, particularly on the doctorate level, and then internship year, then residency, needs overhauled somewhat. I got nothing out of blending cans and cans of I/D for hours for my trainwreck patient on internal medicine. I *did* get a lot out of the rounds we had from 8-12 on Saturday morning talking about diabetes. I *did* get a lot out of staying late until 8pm for a client who's pet died in the ICU because I learned a lot about compassionate communication from that resident. Having a strict regular schedule would have forced me to miss out on that.

Not for nothing, I do agree the average intern gets more out of their first year of practice than the average doctor that goes straight into GP practice due to the number of cases they see. Whether or not that matters depends on what they do after their internship.

 

[whateverforever]

@Trilt yeah I get that. Things don't stop. I work in human medicine and I know what it's like to have patients with acute needs, I know things aren't predictable. Something that works super well where I'm at is discussing/collaborating schedules with my equals to cover for each other. It's pretty nice to be able to say to each other "hey I have my things taken care of, do you want to take your break? I have time to cover you right now." It feels somewhere between uncomfortable and scary to expect someone to monitor my patients, while I take my 1/2 hour unpaid break that's built into my schedule so it's nice to have a team that functions well together and a workplace culture of looking out for one another. This has absolutely not always been the case in my past workplaces and is definitely an exception rather than a rule. Looking to help spread this kinda culture!

 

[Trilt]

If anyone on here wants to support me, has actual ideas for change etc I'm all ears. The "yeah things needs to change, everyone is treated poorly get used it, I suffered so you should suffer and planning to advocate is a bad attitude to have" is not something I will ever subscribe to and I'm gonna keep doing what I do.

Except this isn't what the feedback from the people who attended WSU is at all - I literally just went back to read Coffee's post because of your statement, lol - so I'm confused about what you're needing support for.

It sounds like only occasionally there are crazy shifts and that it mostly happens just because of luck of the draw and emergencies. In addition, it sounds like clinicians were generally good about allowing people to come in late/adapting if those crazy things happened. What are your expectations for clinical year?

 

[Trilt]

Just anecdote - I worked back to back 12 hour shifts as a doctor a few months ago. Why? Because the doctor who was supposed to take over for the night was sick as hell (I made her turn around and go home), I felt fine to do it, and I had time off afterwards to sleep a bunch. We could have found other coverage, but I knew the patients and with an energy drink and some chalupas it was easy to just keep going.

Life happens every once in a while. Learning situations don't only happen 9-5pm. I think there are absolutely exploitative clinical years and scheduling in some places, but simply being at the hospital for over 40 hours on some rotations is not innately evil to me.

 

[whateverforever]

@Trilt

A: I am very appreciative of the student feedback and that is obviously not who I am referring to. They aren't the ones telling me how to live my life or suggesting I may be a problem. I said above that I hoped to not need to advocate too much and that the accommodation will be plenty but I would if I had to. Was not gonna share this but I have an auto-immune condition that literally makes me faint if I don't get to sit down and take 5 minutes when I need to and it flares up when I spend too many days in a row without enough sleep or if I get too hot. Technically, I don't have to tell people what's wrong with me, but when I don't, I get treated like I'm not a team player for not overworking myself. It's part of the reason I'm leaving my work in natural resources (I work in two fields simultaneously) I am not sorry for needing what I need, and I am not sorry for asking for it and the types of attitudes from some of the people on here are the reason I've been afraid to ask for accommodations in the past. Which isn't how it should be. Which is why I've learned to fight for things I think need to change.

B: I'm sure you coworker was appreciate and I'm glad you were able to let them take care of themselves. I actually said earlier in this convo that I wasn't expecting a 40 hour week, just something that isn't exploitive. I do think an 8AM - 3AM shift is exploitive. I worked two 16 hours shifts this week. I have been working about 52 hours a week for the last five years. I worked full time in grad school. Seems like some people are inferring that I'm someone who is afraid of working hard or making sacrifices and I assure you that is not the case. My contract gives me a mandatory 8 hours in between shifts, and has a set amount of break time per hours worked. I think it's absolutely reasonable to expect something similar as a student.

 

[finnickthedog]

I do think an 8AM - 3AM shift is exploitive.

I don't think it's that simple. An 8am-3am shift can be exploitative, but I wouldn't say it always is.

I worked a shift like that a grand total of once as a student--also as the on call anesthesia student. I was only on call twice in 3 week period... I otherwise got to leave on time every single day during that rotation. I got plenty of breaks during that day. I had pets at home to care for so I asked at the start of the rotation if I could leave during lunch time to care for them on days when I was on call just in case I got stuck--wasn't a problem. And after all was said and done, I was told to stay home the next day because of how long my shift lasted. My learning was also clearly valued while I was there. I hate being on call--but I did not for one second feel exploited by that situation.

And I certainly have my criticisms of my clinical rotations... but the 19 hour shift I pulled on anesthesia isn't one of them.

 

[whateverforever]

@finnickthedog that seems reasonable to me. I guess I was thinking like an 8AM-3AM then back the next day at your regularly scheduled time.

Which on that note, some WSU folks up above said SAVMA guidelines which spell these things out aren't policy at WSU so why shouldn't I help advocate to make them policy instead of just being at the mercy of an instructor who may or may not choose to follow those? I'm sure the guidelines were written ad a reflection of student experiences.

 

[battie]

Seems like some of y'all think to seem I'm gonna go to class the first day and start yelling about how it's too much work.

This perception is coming from this statement:

yeah I mean I don't really care about being labeled a problem

No one is saying that we shouldn't advocate for ourselves and other students. Not one person has said or agrees with the following:

"yeah things needs to change, everyone is treated poorly get used it, I suffered so you should suffer and planning to advocate is a bad attitude to have"

If anything, I would say all of us have said multiple times throughout our time on SDN have advocated for the opposite in a lot of ways.

What everyone here is say is:

The tact is the point I was trying to make. Communication is a two way street and as soon as someone comes in with a chip on their shoulder, it’s really hard for productive conversations to occur.

The way I would have worded what Fern stated is, "communication has to be open so while certain aspects of clinical year have to change (i.e. the 3 hours my rotation mates and I sat around for 3 hours while the clinicians graded us on the last Friday and we did nothing), students have to be flexible in regards to their learning and the operations of the rotation."

why shouldn't I help advocate to make them policy instead of just being at the mercy of an instructor who may or may not choose to follow those? I'm sure the guidelines were written ad a reflection of student experiences.

No one is saying this *shouldn't* happen. Every year at my school since the class of 2019 has had some changes initiated within the clinical year setting. We absolutely did not follow the SAVMA guidelines to the letter, but each year got a little bit better. I do think the SAVMA guidelies should be universally adopted by the universities. Not for nothing, I think there are better ways to assign students to rotations to even out the work-load compared to what my class experienced.

The communication and expectations have to realistic on the parts of the students, however. I think the push-back you're perceiving is that we don't think that the attitude/communication style you're displaying here would lead to productive conversations with administration and curricula committees (i.e. being perceived as a problem will likely cause a disruption in that communication).

 

[whateverforever]

@battie I asked you to leave me alone on this forum a couple of months back. Please respect my boundaries.


And for the rest of y'all that have nothing at all to do with WSU, I came here for the much appreciated *student* advice, not a bunch of doctors who think they know better than I do what is best for me. This is no longer a productive conversation and mostly just feels like an attack on my personality (see "toddlers," "attitude," "problem," "we don't think") and I respectfully ask you all to scroll on by if you have nothing helpful to add and just want to police my existence on your beloved group-thinking slice of internet.

 

[MixedAnimals77]

@finnickthedog that seems reasonable to me. I guess I was thinking like an 8AM-3AM then back the next day at your regularly scheduled time.

Which on that note, some WSU folks up above said SAVMA guidelines which spell these things out aren't policy at WSU so why shouldn't I help advocate to make them policy instead of just being at the mercy of an instructor who may or may not choose to follow those? I'm sure the guidelines were written ad a reflection of student experiences.

Except I got to come in late the next day as I said previously... I'm just saying goodluck making it policy. Literally every year each class works towards helping improve student life to better fit the SAVMA gudielines. SAVMA guidelines have been a thing for YEARS and IDK one single school that follows it to a T or where it is policy. Overall WSU is like any school you might attend and moves at the pace of bureacuracy. Change will happen slowly and I encourage you to help with that change but in a tactful way to get it done because years 1-3 there will be plenty to "change" before you even think about year 4 and who knows what year 4 will look like by the time you get there. Also just because it's "policy" doesn't mean that some clinicians who have been there for ages don't care about "policy". These are the few that exist no matter where you go and you may or may not have a bad encounter with them. I just encourage you to go in with an open mind before jumping to things like unionization and changing SAVMA guidelines to policy because I think you'll end up frustrated at the snail's pace of change. Get the accomodation not because anyone is entitiled to know why and hopefully you won't need to use it, but people can't help accomodate if they don't know you need accomodations.

 

[whateverforever]

@MixedAnimals77 Yeah looking back you did say that. Sorry a bunch of people threw intimidating sounding schedules in there and tbh I wasn't keeping track because the conversation got a bit derailed. And yeah that makes sense for sure. Like I said a few times now, I hope accommodations are all I need but if I find I need to push harder, I'm not afraid to do that. I'm gonna see what it's like when I get there and definitely get feedback from more people who are familiar with the current WSU program.

Lol, par for the course. I've worked for the government for 11 years, so let me tell you I KNOW about the bureaucracy snails pace! More motivation to start now.

 

[battie]

@battie I asked you to leave me alone on this forum a couple of months back. Please respect my boundaries

I don't remember this at all and don't keep a running list of people who I disagree with or whom disagree with me. On a public forum, I respond no different than I would in real life. While I won't actively seek you out, I will also not avoid responding to you either. These forums help hundreds of students per year and we often refer to previous thread when students have questions. Therefore I will continue to respond to any thread I feel I can contribute to.

Not for nothing, you also "liked" my initial comment in this thread, which you had no issue with. Interacting with people only when they agree with you or when they say something you jive with leads to creation of echo chambers that no one benefits from.

And for the rest of y'all that have nothing at all to do with WSU, I came here for the much appreciated *student* advice, not a bunch of doctors who think they know better than I do what is best for me

I was a student less than two years ago, and I had to repeat a year of vet school, so even spent more time than most in vet school and had the great experience of interacting with academic administration from a student support perspective from then on out. As has been referenced, not much (if anything) has changed. Most of us have graduated in the last five years and pur experience isn't that far off.

None of us have told you or inferred that we know what's best for you. We have presented our perspective of how veterinary education is based on experience.

have nothing helpful to add and just want to police my existence on your beloved group-thinking slice of internet.

We're not policing you nor do all of us agree on all topics. We are adding what we feel is valuable advice in how to interact in the veterinary education space from a variety of perspectives and based on personal experience. If we didn't care, we wouldn't waste our time. You're welcome to take that advice or not.

 

[whateverforever]

@battie yeah sorry I liked a bunch of comments in order to maybe possible let people know I appreciated the feedback of those who weren't treating me like I need to change who I am to fit some specific boomer version of "professionalism." No luck. Instead of answering my questions/concerns people are hung up on me being okay with speaking out and are here treating me like a child. I provide evidence that this has worked for me in my life. Still told I'm wrong. I asked about reasonable accommodations ffs, I continue to tell people this is what I need and get a comment like "I don't treat my technicians like toddlers who need snack time." How am I supposed to redirect the conversation when instead of trying to engage in a productive conversation you just quote lines from a comment and tear it apart? That is not helpful. It is not caring.

What this is REALLY going to show people looking for advice or to care of their wellness is that a strong personality shouldn't exist in a professional space, but they should be passive peons for fear of upsetting others instead of being functioning adults who know what they need. And that some people want to talk about how change needs to be made but as soon as someone suggests that something could be done people jump ship.

And it's not about what you specifically are saying or whether I like your opinion or not. it's about the condescending way you use "we" and "us" in your statements as if a few regular members way of thinking are facts and never subject to dissenting opinions. And any "other" opinions are not open to discussion. Several people have been supportive of me asking for what I need and some are just trying to mansplain life to me.

Although these forums have been helpful to me in several ways, since there isn't a way to block people on here it's probably time to delete the app from my phone. You can go find someone else to "care" about. I'll lean into my real life community where people support me and I support them.