Work/Life Balance of Specialities

[zionyout]

Hi All,

I am about to start a fast-track vet med course in the UK. Although its early to be contemplating which specialty I'd like to embark on it, it is something I plan to do.

Just for my own personal interest, which specialties have the most favourable work/life balance and which are notoriously bad for not? At this early stage I'm particularly interested in Neurology and ECC but I feel its important to factor in the free time you will have outside of your career.

I'm new to SDN but there seems to be a hell of a lot of despondent and disillusioned vets, for a variety of reasons, on this site. I fully understand that if you don't have a life outside of your career you will most likely end up resenting it. Therefore I feel I should definitely take into account specialties which will allow me to decompress effectively and therefore enable me to be a better, happier vet in the long run.

Thanks in advance for your replies and also for the previous threads. They have been extremely helpful!

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[CalliopeDVM]

I remember being told that there are very few dermatology emergencies, which might mean more regular hours, but I think nutrition is probably the specialty with the fewest emergencies. Pathology, dermatology, theriogenology, and dentistry probably all into that category too. No one can say any specialty offers work-life balance without knowing what your life is like, but there certainly are specialties that tend to offer fewer emergencies - and that means fewer on-call situations, fewer overtime situations, and fewer life-or-death situations. Neurology and ECC aren't in that group, LOL.

 

[zionyout]

Haha I thought not - any ideas about opt? Work-Life balance meaning working normalish hours 50-60 hours a week. I'm thinking of moving to the states after to apply as I have a US passport. I may decide to do internships and residencies in the UK however only some are AVMA accredited - I'm not sure if you can practice if you are not accredited. In the UK there are no real board exams for specialist and anyone can call themselves a specialist however that wouldn't be the best of ideas for obvious reasons!

 

[Minnerbelle]

Eye emergencies are true emergencies. So many though not all ophthalmologists associated with referral hospitals are on call.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Haha I thought not - any ideas about opt? Work-Life balance meaning working normalish hours 50-60 hours a week. I'm thinking of moving to the states after to apply as I have a US passport. I may decide to do internships and residencies in the UK however only some are AVMA accredited - I'm not sure if you can practice if you are not accredited. In the UK there are no real board exams for specialist and anyone can call themselves a specialist however that wouldn't be the best of ideas for obvious reasons!

Wut?

ECVP (pathology), ECVS (surgery), ECVO (optho), ESVN (neuro), ECVIM (internal med) all have board exams and residency or postgraduate training requirements, to name a few.

 

[zionyout]

I'm talking about in the UK the route to specialisation is poorly mapped out and the paths to becoming a specialist is not well defined. The RVC published a paper about this a few years ago.

To be a RVC-recognised specialist:`

RCVS Specialist status is not easily achieved.

To be included on the List of RCVS Specialists, an individual must have achieved a postgraduate qualification at least at Diploma level, and must additionally satisfy the RCVS that they make an active contribution to their specialty, have national and international acclaim and publish widely in their field.

An RCVS Specialist must also be available for referral by other veterinary colleagues.

Specialist status is time-bound, and the individual must reapply for recognition every five years (or earlier in certain cases) to maintain their name on the List.

However, you can loosely term yourself a specialist and be viewed/hired as a specialist without going through this rigorous process but just being extremely competent and proven in a particular field i.e years of experience, published a few papers and completed Diplomas.

ECVP, ECVS, ECVO is for the European-accredidation. Although UK is in Europe it has its own accreditation and unique career paths.

 

[LetItSnow]

At this early stage I'm particularly interested in Neurology and ECC but I feel its important to factor in the free time you will have outside of your career.

I know people commented about specialties involving emergencies being tough on life, but.... there's two sides to most coins. The neurologist at my vet school? Mon-Fri no emergencies. Any emergency was handled by the ECC and Surgery services. He did plenty of surgery ... but it was scheduled. Anything emergency went through the Surgery service. So he had a very well-controlled, stable schedule (if that's what you're looking for).

ER/ECC can be sucky shifts (overnights, weekends, etc.), but at 3-4 days/week it also can be a fair bit less work time than many other vets. My full-time commitment, with well-above-average starting pay, is 3 shifts/week. [Note, I have no idea what ER/ECC work is like in the UK.] I tend to work more than that because I want the extra cash and want to see more cases to ramp up more quickly, but nobody is making me do it.

Personally, I think work/life balance is largely something you have to create. Some jobs definitely lend themselves more to it than others, but a lot of it is just on you to manage based upon what sorts of activities and lifestyle are important to you.

Last comment ... going the vet school -> internship -> residency route .... not very conducive to "work/life balance" for the time you're doing that path, which is at least 8 years.

 

[zionyout]

I know people commented about specialties involving emergencies being tough on life, but.... there's two sides to most coins. The neurologist at my vet school? Mon-Fri no emergencies. Any emergency was handled by the ECC and Surgery services. He did plenty of surgery ... but it was scheduled. Anything emergency went through the Surgery service. So he had a very well-controlled, stable schedule (if that's what you're looking for).

ER/ECC can be sucky shifts (overnights, weekends, etc.), but at 3-4 days/week it also can be a fair bit less work time than many other vets. My full-time commitment, with well-above-average starting pay, is 3 shifts/week. [Note, I have no idea what ER/ECC work is like in the UK.] I tend to work more than that because I want the extra cash and want to see more cases to ramp up more quickly, but nobody is making me do it.

Personally, I think work/life balance is largely something you have to create. Some jobs definitely lend themselves more to it than others, but a lot of it is just on you to manage based upon what sorts of activities and lifestyle are important to you.

Last comment ... going the vet school -> internship -> residency route .... not very conducive to "work/life balance" for the time you're doing that path, which is at least 8 years.

Thanks for the reply!

I never knew that ECC shifts usually range between 3-4 days a week! i totally agree with you that you determine your work life balance but due to my lack of knowledge I wasn't sure if those specialities made that near to impossible.

I've taken a relatively scenic route into vet med. I've taken many 'gap years' in between my BSc and MSc and I'm now 25 and just about to commence fast track vet med in my home city. For the foreseeable future I don't mind putting my all into it as I've had more than my fair share of fun. Just once I'm in my early thirties I would hope to think I can do other things outside of work and have some sort of balance esp in a specialist field. If so, I think I'll be truly happy.

I won't have much student debt whatsoever and luckily in the UK you only pay once you start earning over approx $30,000 dollars and then it's a small percentage of your income over that amount every month. I really don't notice it leave my pay check at the moment at all. Unfortunately, I feel that is what a load of vets are most disheartened about here. If I can work hard and still have a relatively normal life outside which isn't too disrupted I would predict I'll be happy in this profession! We'll see I guess...

 

[CalliopeDVM]

ER/ECC can be sucky shifts (overnights, weekends, etc.), but at 3-4 days/week it also can be a fair bit less work time than many other vets. My full-time commitment, with well-above-average starting pay, is 3 shifts/week. [Note, I have no idea what ER/ECC work is like in the UK.] I tend to work more than that because I want the extra cash and want to see more cases to ramp up more quickly, but nobody is making me do it.

You're right that a lot depends on WHERE you work, not just on what your specialty is - academia vs private day practice vs emergency clinic etc., as well as how well-stocked those places are with talented (even if not Boarded) vets. Some emergency work veterinarians will never work late, because there are enough vets on different shifts to pass on cases to (daytime GPs work more overtime than they do). On the other hand, some will have no choice to work late frequenly because they're the only vet with skill X or Y at that facility. Etc.

 

[jmo1012]

Thanks for the reply!

I never knew that ECC shifts usually range between 3-4 days a week! i totally agree with you that you determine your work life balance but due to my lack of knowledge I wasn't sure if those specialities made that near to impossible.

I've taken a relatively scenic route into vet med. I've taken many 'gap years' in between my BSc and MSc and I'm now 25 and just about to commence fast track vet med in my home city. For the foreseeable future I don't mind putting my all into it as I've had more than my fair share of fun. Just once I'm in my early thirties I would hope to think I can do other things outside of work and have some sort of balance esp in a specialist field. If so, I think I'll be truly happy.

I won't have much student debt whatsoever and luckily in the UK you only pay once you start earning over approx $30,000 dollars and then it's a small percentage of your income over that amount every month. I really don't notice it leave my pay check at the moment at all. Unfortunately, I feel that is what a load of vets are most disheartened about here. If I can work hard and still have a relatively normal life outside which isn't too disrupted I would predict I'll be happy in this profession! We'll see I guess...

If you are talking about a residency trained ECC specialist, the general impression i've received from most boarded folks is that the work/life balance is terrible, the days are very long, and the shifts are usually at least 5-6 days per week. the folks at my hospital only seem to work 4 days a week, and sometimes leave by 6 or 7, but they are not the norm based on the dozen or so specialists i've talked to.

 

[JaynaAli]

There's two sides to most coins. The neurologist at my vet school? Mon-Fri no emergencies. Any emergency was handled by the ECC and Surgery services. He did plenty of surgery ... but it was scheduled. Anything emergency went through the Surgery service. So he had a very well-controlled, stable schedule (if that's what you're looking for).

I agree with LIS on this one...it is very variable. Unlike the neurologist he was talking about, the neurologist at my clinic easily works 70-80 hours each week (in 4 days) AND she's on call for all emergency MRIs and surgeries. Just a couple weeks ago she did consults all day, then around 9pm a down dachshund came in. As we were closing that dog's hemilaminectomy, a second deep pain negative dachshund came in and he had to have an MRI and hemilaminectomy that night too. We finished up just after 5am, both went home to shower and came back by 6:30am for another day of consults...almost 38 straight hours spent working. I think it would suck to work that much after becoming boarded, but she likes to be busy and makes a killing in production each month (at the expense of most of a social life).

 

[zionyout]

I agree with LIS on this one...it is very variable. Unlike the neurologist he was talking about, the neurologist at my clinic easily works 70-80 hours each week (in 4 days) AND she's on call for all emergency MRIs and surgeries. Just a couple weeks ago she did consults all day, then around 9pm a down dachshund came in. As we were closing that dog's hemilaminectomy, a second deep pain negative dachshund came in and he had to have an MRI and hemilaminectomy that night too. We finished up just after 5am, both went home to shower and came back by 6:30am for another day of consults...almost 38 straight hours spent working. I think it would suck to work that much after becoming boarded, but she likes to be busy and makes a killing in production each month (at the expense of most of a social life).

Surely that's not safe to work that long.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Surely that's not safe to work that long.

It's not.

 

[Staffie]

If you're looking for good work/life balance, you're probably better off staying in the UK where you're guaranteed at least 25 days paid annual leave per year. I don't think it's really possible to get anywhere close to that in the US, at least not early on in your career.

 

[dyachei]

If you're looking for good work/life balance, you're probably better off staying in the UK where you're guaranteed at least 25 days paid annual leave per year. I don't think it's really possible to get anywhere close to that in the US, at least not early on in your career.

corporate practices offer 5 weeks per year.

 

[Minnerbelle]

corporate practices offer 5 weeks per year.

Depends on which corporate practice I guess. Though either way, if you're on production and you always meet production... then any time you take off is essentially nonpaid. Particularly if the corporate practice has a negative accrual system.

 

[dyachei]

Depends on which corporate practice I guess. Though either way, if you're on production and you always meet production... then any time you take off is essentially nonpaid. Particularly if the corporate practice has a negative accrual system.

agreed. but they were protected days off.

 

[Minnerbelle]

If you're actually granted those days off. I know someone at banfield who had a really hard time getting requested days off. I dunno how common that is though. She may have been unlucky.

 

[LetItSnow]

I guess the point I was trying to make (that I made poorly) is that 'work/life' balance can look like different things to different people. For some people, it's limited their total work hours to some specific number (40-50), freeing them up for more 'outside of work' stuff. For some people, it's working only weekdays, even if it's 12 hrs/day, because they have a high premium on weekend time. For others, it's a job that would allow them to take more time off in the summer because they are avid hikers, boaters, whatever. For others, it's about having flexibility to be their own boss, even if it means working a billion hours/week.

So when one person asks about specialties that allow for work/life balance ... we can all give vague answers, but in the end it depends on what things any given person places a premium on. I don't mind working nights (for now, anyway - dunno how long I'll feel that way), so for me the benefit of having a 3-4 day work week makes this an awesome job - I have lots of time off and make significantly above average starting pay. What's not to like? But for someone else, they'd look at how many nights I work, the fact that we have several hospitals I work at, and they'd say "no way!" Maybe next week I'll be saying that. Hard to say.

From what I hear, <all> residencies are super time-consuming. So if residency/specialty is a goal, you probably have to take the long view of "what's the ultimate pay-out for the 3-yr sacrifice?".....

 

[dyachei]

If you're actually granted those days off. I know someone at banfield who had a really hard time getting requested days off. I dunno how common that is though. She may have been unlucky.

usually if you requested time off in a row and in advance, they couldn't deny it. If you only request a 4 day weekend, they would make you work around it and wouldn't use any PTO days

 

[Minnerbelle]

I guess the point I was trying to make (that I made poorly) is that 'work/life' balance can look like different things to different people. For some people, it's limited their total work hours to some specific number (40-50), freeing them up for more 'outside of work' stuff. For some people, it's working only weekdays, even if it's 12 hrs/day, because they have a high premium on weekend time. For others, it's a job that would allow them to take more time off in the summer because they are avid hikers, boaters, whatever. For others, it's about having flexibility to be their own boss, even if it means working a billion hours/week.

So when one person asks about specialties that allow for work/life balance ... we can all give vague answers, but in the end it depends on what things any given person places a premium on. I don't mind working nights (for now, anyway - dunno how long I'll feel that way), so for me the benefit of having a 3-4 day work week makes this an awesome job - I have lots of time off and make significantly above average starting pay. What's not to like? But for someone else, they'd look at how many nights I work, the fact that we have several hospitals I work at, and they'd say "no way!" Maybe next week I'll be saying that. Hard to say.

From what I hear, <all> residencies are super time-consuming. So if residency/specialty is a goal, you probably have to take the long view of "what's the ultimate pay-out for the 3-yr sacrifice?".....

I dunno man, radiology is pretty sweet no matter how you look at it. The pay, the hours, even the residents don't seem all that stressed.

Derm and dentistry too.

 

[LetItSnow]

I dunno man, radiology is pretty sweet no matter how you look at it. The pay, the hours, even the residents don't seem all that stressed.

Derm and dentistry too.

Hehehe. True, I suppose. But there's still the "studying for boards" aspect of it that takes up all that time outside the hospital. Dunno. I think I'd rather just kill myself than go through that.

But with teleradiology... sitting at home in front of my computer playing games on one computer and reading on another... not a bad gig.

 

[racccjlm]

I'll chime in on the ophtho side --- your work/life balance is dictated by how much you want to work. I know quite a few ophthalmologists that work 3 days a week, 8-5 kind of hours with no on-call. That being said, others work 11-12 hour days 5 days a week, and choose to be on call for emergencies on weekends. Work life balance in this specialty can certainly be achieved - as long as you set boundaries.

I echo the previous sentiment about an internship + residency not being conducive to work-life balance during those years. They have a european college - ECVO.

 

[rdc]

For the most part, if you plan on doing an internship/residency, you need to delete the concept of work-life balance from your vocabulary. You will have Work-Work balance.


Here is my perspective:
Im a dentistry and oral surgery resident at an academic institution... I'm the only resident so it will be different if there are other residents to share the load...

I am 100% on call for all maxillofacial trauma in the hospital. My work day is typically 10-12 hours (sometimes shorter, sometimes longer), and on top of clinics, I have all the other non-clinical stuff I need to do. I have a heavy burden of inpatients (we do a lot of maxillofacial surgery in our program), and therefore I'm frequently in the hospital on the weekends. The only residents in the hospital that have work-life balance are the dermatology residents: zero on-call, and they have a reasonable work day. Everybody else works really hard (not that the derm residents don't work hard).

As for work-life balance once I'm done, I suspect I'll work 5 days a week in a multi-speciality hospital, and I will definitely be on-call. If there is another oral surgeon around I might be able to call-share, but there are so few boarded dentists, I suspect I'll be taking call on my own. If all i wanted to do was root canals and extractions, i'm sure I could work 3 days a week in my own practice. I think its all about how you structure your practice.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I think its all about how you structure your practice.

I think this was LIS's point, no matter what the specialty. I even know neurologists of all people who are 9-5, no on call. The neurologist I know at the teaching hospital probably works longer hours than any house officer, it's pretty damn amazing what a marathon runner the guy is. Like he lives there.

 

[shortnsweet]

Haha I thought not - any ideas about opt? Work-Life balance meaning working normalish hours 50-60 hours a week. I'm thinking of moving to the states after to apply as I have a US passport. I may decide to do internships and residencies in the UK however only some are AVMA accredited - I'm not sure if you can practice if you are not accredited. In the UK there are no real board exams for specialist and anyone can call themselves a specialist however that wouldn't be the best of ideas for obvious reasons!

Well that's false.

 

[shortnsweet]

You also want to remember that if you stay in the UK, the probability of you getting an internship straight out of vet school is extremely low and you will probably have to work in mixed animal practice for a few years. Trying to specialize quickly tends to be frowned upon in my experience over there. Almost all of my UK classmates are working in mixed animal general practice. Furthermore, internships tend to be longer (18mos vs 12) and there are fewer residency positions. I considered going back to the UK for ECVIM residency, as that and ACVIM are becoming interchangeable diplomates, but decided against it as I wanted to stay in the states. The internist I worked with last year was double boarded ECVIM and ACVIM.

I know pathology and neuro residencies are both AVMA accredited at Glasgow, and radiology at RVC, as I have friends in all of those programs.

You can still practice being boarded in Europe and working in the UK, some may just not recognize you.
The AVMA accred. status of the program simply means you can adopt the American College's respective dip and sit their exam.

 

[zionyout]

You also want to remember that if you stay in the UK, the probability of you getting an internship straight out of vet school is extremely low and you will probably have to work in mixed animal practice for a few years. Trying to specialize quickly tends to be frowned upon in my experience over there. Almost all of my UK classmates are working in mixed animal general practice. Furthermore, internships tend to be longer (18mos vs 12) and there are fewer residency positions. I considered going back to the UK for ECVIM residency, as that and ACVIM are becoming interchangeable diplomates, but decided against it as I wanted to stay in the states. The internist I worked with last year was double boarded ECVIM and ACVIM.

I know pathology and neuro residencies are both AVMA accredited at Glasgow, and radiology at RVC, as I have friends in all of those programs.

You can still practice being boarded in Europe and working in the UK, some may just not recognize you.
The AVMA accred. status of the program simply means you can adopt the American College's respective dip and sit their exam.

Is it possible to be hired as a specialist in the USA without AVMA accred?

 

[zionyout]

Also, would you happen to know the difference in pay between UK and USA specialists?

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Is it possible to be hired as a specialist in the USA without AVMA accred?

You can't be a "specialist" in Canada or the US without being Board certified - you can't call yourself a specialist or advertise yourself as having a specialty.

 

[zionyout]

You can't be a "specialist" in Canada or the US without being Board certified - you can't call yourself a specialist or advertise yourself as having a specialty.

Even if you have European Board Accred?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Is it possible to be hired as a specialist in the USA without AVMA accred?

You would need to do a residency, and most US residencies will not even consider applicants from a non-AVMA accredited university unless you have also passed ECFVG/PAVE. Some places may hire you as a specialist if you have European board certification but it's still more uphill.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Also, would you happen to know the difference in pay between UK and USA specialists?

This is too broad of a question. What specialties? In industry? Academia? Government? What countries or part of the country? Etc. Way too many variables at play.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Even if you have European Board Accred?

Yes, in order to call yourself a specialist, you must be a Diplomat of the specific specialty college. You could petition the individual specialty to see if they would accept the European credentials, but you still need to be Board certified here. I can't imagine why anyone would want to be a member of both European and American colleges, though, unless it was someone who spent significant amount of time in each location (summers in the US, winters in Spain?)

 

[shortnsweet]

Yes, in order to call yourself a specialist, you must be a Diplomat of the specific specialty college. You could petition the individual specialty to see if they would accept the European credentials, but you still need to be Board certified here. I can't imagine why anyone would want to be a member of both European and American colleges, though, unless it was someone who spent significant amount of time in each location (summers in the US, winters in Spain?)

I know ECVIM and ACVIM are trying to become interchangeable and allow you to practice in either place . Some academic institutions here do allow ECVIM dips to say they are specialists, and vice versa. I can't speak for the other colleges. At some of the international conferences, it seems that those boards also allow you to be recognized as a specialist (at AAEP/BEVA they don't seem to care if you are boarded in the US or Europe...And they recognize you as a specialist).

My internist from last year is double boarded because he grew up in the UK and then decided to move to the States.
My friend wants to be ACVS boarded, but she just married a Scot. Apparently ACVS boards allow you to practice in the UK as a specialist, but not vice versa, so she is trying for a residency here.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I know ECVIM and ACVIM are trying to become interchangeable and allow you to practice in either place . Some academic institutions here do allow ECVIM dips to say they are specialists, and vice versa. I can't speak for the other colleges. At some of the international conferences, it seems that those boards also allow you to be recognized as a specialist (at AAEP/BEVA they don't seem to care if you are boarded in the US or Europe...And they recognize you as a specialist).

My internist from last year is double boarded because he grew up in the UK and then decided to move to the States.
My friend wants to be ACVS boarded, but she just married a Scot. Apparently ACVS boards allow you to practice in the UK as a specialist, but not vice versa, so she is trying for a residency here.

I just know that the AVMA has said: "It is unethical for veterinarians to identify themselves as members of an AVMA-recognized specialty organization if such certification has not been awarded. "Only those who are board certified may claim that status. Only those veterinarians who have been certified by an AVMA-recognized specialty organization should refer to themselves as specialists.""

It's also a part of the provincial regulations here, and is probably a part of many states' regulations as well. I did a quick look at the Arizona laws, for instance (my Dad lives there) and they do state that a " “Specialist” means a veterinarian who is certified as a diplomate in a particular discipline by a national specialty board or college recognized by the American veterinary medical association after the completion of additional education and training, an internship or residency, passing required examinations and meeting any other criteria required by the various individual national specialty boards or colleges." Some states may not have that requirement?

 

[zionyout]

I just know that the AVMA has said: "It is unethical for veterinarians to identify themselves as members of an AVMA-recognized specialty organization if such certification has not been awarded. "Only those who are board certified may claim that status. Only those veterinarians who have been certified by an AVMA-recognized specialty organization should refer to themselves as specialists.""

It's also a part of the provincial regulations here, and is probably a part of many states' regulations as well. I did a quick look at the Arizona laws, for instance (my Dad lives there) and they do state that a " “Specialist” means a veterinarian who is certified as a diplomate in a particular discipline by a national specialty board or college recognized by the American veterinary medical association after the completion of additional education and training, an internship or residency, passing required examinations and meeting any other criteria required by the various individual national specialty boards or colleges." Some states may not have that requirement?

Thanks for all the info pal.

I am going to an AVMA-accred school plus I have a US passport. Just need to get into an internship or residency after my studies - although thats a long way away.

Regarding the salary - vets in the UK do not get paid as much as they do in the USA. However, I've found no data on UK specialist salaries so cannot compare across all boards.

 

[shortnsweet]

I just know that the AVMA has said: "It is unethical for veterinarians to identify themselves as members of an AVMA-recognized specialty organization if such certification has not been awarded. "Only those who are board certified may claim that status. Only those veterinarians who have been certified by an AVMA-recognized specialty organization should refer to themselves as specialists.""

It's also a part of the provincial regulations here, and is probably a part of many states' regulations as well. I did a quick look at the Arizona laws, for instance (my Dad lives there) and they do state that a " “Specialist” means a veterinarian who is certified as a diplomate in a particular discipline by a national specialty board or college recognized by the American veterinary medical association after the completion of additional education and training, an internship or residency, passing required examinations and meeting any other criteria required by the various individual national specialty boards or colleges." Some states may not have that requirement?

I think we are both trying to say the same thing. I am by no means saying an ECVIM vet should claim to be ACVIM boarded...they are, however, an internal medicine specialist in their own right. The AVMA just doesn't want them to say "I am a Diplomate of the ACVIM".

It's the same as me claiming to be a DVM. I am technically not allowed to claim that title, as my degree is BVMS.
I did, however, obtain my degree from an AVMA accredited school, so it is equivalent.

 

[shortnsweet]

Thanks for all the info pal.

I am going to an AVMA-accred school plus I have a US passport. Just need to get into an internship or residency after my studies - although thats a long way away.

Regarding the salary - vets in the UK do not get paid as much as they do in the USA. However, I've found no data on UK specialist salaries so cannot compare across all boards.

If you are boarded, salary should increase no matter which place. But salary also varies significantly by location, so it's hard to just look at numbers and say " well UK vets are paid less". They have much better benefits in the UK, as well as free healthcare, etc etc etc

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I think we are both trying to say the same thing. I am by no means saying an ECVIM vet should claim to be ACVIM boarded...they are, however, an internal medicine specialist in their own right. The AVMA just doesn't want them to say "I am a Diplomate of the ACVIM".

It's the same as me claiming to be a DVM. I am technically not allowed to claim that title, as my degree is BVMS.
I did, however, obtain my degree from an AVMA accredited school, so it is equivalent.

Actually, the AVMA doesn't even want them to say "I am a specialist in ________". The information and skill level is equivalent, but the point is about claiming the term "Specialist" You can be a veterinarian in the US without having a DVM degree, but you can't be a veterinary specialist without being boarded in an AVMA-accredited specialty college.

 

[shortnsweet]

Actually, the AVMA doesn't even want them to say "I am a specialist in ________". The information and skill level is equivalent, but the point is about claiming the term "Specialist" You can be a veterinarian in the US without having a DVM degree, but you can't be a veterinary specialist without being boarded in an AVMA-accredited specialty college.

Ok...then explain these job postings:

http://www.ecvim-ca.org/jobs/for-di...nal-medicine-the-university-of-california-usa

http://www.ecvim-ca.org/jobs/for-di...college-of-veterinary-medicine-raleigh-nc-usa

Those AVMA accredited schools are not going to tell these people they can't say "I'm a small animal internal medicine specialist", because that is exactly what they are.

 

[LetItSnow]

Ok...then explain these job postings:

http://www.ecvim-ca.org/jobs/for-di...nal-medicine-the-university-of-california-usa

http://www.ecvim-ca.org/jobs/for-di...college-of-veterinary-medicine-raleigh-nc-usa

Those AVMA accredited schools are not going to tell these people they can't say "I'm a small animal internal medicine specialist", because that is exactly what they are.

I'm not sure, but I think you guys are talking past each other. There's recognizing within the community somebody's advanced expertise, and then there is how you can legally describe them. UC-Davis is hiring someone to do small animal internal medicine (in your initial link), and they are clearly looking for someone with advanced-level training, and they also recognize ECVIM in addition to U.S. training ....

.... but in some/many states, they would not be able to call that person a "specialist" if they were (only) ECVIM boarded. (In California specifically, I don't know what the law is.)

Like a lot of things, there's the AVMA and there's the state. From the MN practice act where I'm at: "A veterinarian may claim to be a specialist only if the veterinarian is certified as a specialist in a discipline for which there is a specialty board approved by the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA). A veterinarian may not use the term "specialist" for an area of practice for which there is no AVMA-recognized certification."

So if they hired an ECVIM boarded specialist here, that person would not be able to describe themselves that way.

https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Pages/Specialist-Claims-State-Laws.aspx

Or maybe I just don't understand the debate.

[A]n ECVIM vet [is] an internal medicine specialist in their own right.

Well. They are and they aren't. They are in the sense that you and I understand they've gone through advanced training and are ECVIM boarded and are, in non-legal terms, a specialist. But in a legal sense in many states in the U.S. they cannot describe themselves as a specialist. So I guess it depends on how you're using the term.

Here in MN, our AVMA accredited school would be legally obliged to tell those people that they can't say "I'm a small animal internal medicine specialist", because to do otherwise would violate the Practice Act.

 

[shortnsweet]

I'm not sure, but I think you guys are talking past each other. There's recognizing within the community somebody's advanced expertise, and then there is how you can legally describe them. UC-Davis is hiring someone to do small animal internal medicine (in your initial link), and they are clearly looking for someone with advanced-level training, and they also recognize ECVIM in addition to U.S. training ....

.... but in some/many states, they would not be able to call that person a "specialist" if they were (only) ECVIM boarded. (In California specifically, I don't know what the law is.)

Like a lot of things, there's the AVMA and there's the state. From the MN practice act where I'm at: "A veterinarian may claim to be a specialist only if the veterinarian is certified as a specialist in a discipline for which there is a specialty board approved by the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA). A veterinarian may not use the term "specialist" for an area of practice for which there is no AVMA-recognized certification."

So if they hired an ECVIM boarded specialist here, that person would not be able to describe themselves that way.

https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Pages/Specialist-Claims-State-Laws.aspx

Or maybe I just don't understand the debate.



Well. They are and they aren't. They are in the sense that you and I understand they've gone through advanced training and are ECVIM boarded and are, in non-legal terms, a specialist. But in a legal sense in many states in the U.S. they cannot describe themselves as a specialist. So I guess it depends on how you're using the term.

Here in MN, our AVMA accredited school would be legally obliged to tell those people that they can't say "I'm a small animal internal medicine specialist", because to do otherwise would violate the Practice Act.

So dumb.

AVMA is so ridiculous sometimes.

Though I know when I was looking into doing my residency back in the UK, ECVIM boarding was working with ACVIM to become interchangeable, so maybe that will fix this whole "specialist" thing...

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

The obvious solution is that we should determine specialist status Hunger Games style.

 

[Caia]

The obvious solution is that we should determine specialist status Hunger Games style.

Only if you wear your gear and wield necropsy knives.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Only if you wear your gear and wield necropsy knives.

Come at me bro.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

But in a legal sense in many states in the U.S. they cannot describe themselves as a specialist. So I guess it depends on how you're using the term.

Here in MN, our AVMA accredited school would be legally obliged to tell those people that they can't say "I'm a small animal internal medicine specialist", because to do otherwise would violate the Practice Act.

Thank you; that was exactly the point I was trying to make.