William Beaumont

[Red Wings]

Hi everyone I've been lurking around this board for a little while and finally decided to post.

I was wondering about the radiation oncology program at William Beaumont hospital. For me the location is good but I hadn't even heard of William Beaumont before becoming interested in radiation oncology. Are they respected in the field? What are they known for? What is the training like? Are they pretty competitive? I know U of M is in the area but it sounds like they are highly competitive and while I am working on being the best applicant I can be I don't know if I'll be cream of the crop by rad onc standards.

I have read through the posts on this forum but didn't see a lot of details about their program so any insights would be welcome. Thanks.

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[Abnormal Saline]

Hi everyone I've been lurking around this board for a little while and finally decided to post.

I was wondering about the radiation oncology program at William Beaumont hospital. For me the location is good but I hadn't even heard of William Beaumont before becoming interested in radiation oncology. Are they respected in the field? What are they known for? What is the training like? Are they pretty competitive? I know U of M is in the area but it sounds like they are highly competitive and while I am working on being the best applicant I can be I don't know if I'll be cream of the crop by rad onc standards.

I have read through the posts on this forum but didn't see a lot of details about their program so any insights would be welcome. Thanks.

William Beaumont is highly respected in the field. Even as a well-respected program, I believe that it is still underrated. If it had a big institutional name, it would always be mentioned in the top 10. They are well-known for brachytherapy, but I will let the residents of Beaumont who are on this forum comment regarding their clinical training/experience. Beaumont is competitive as well. Their applicants may rank the program sliiiiightly lower than some other places because of location, but make no mistake that they interview plenty of top-notch candidates in Royal Oak.

Good luck in your journey.

 

[Gfunk6]

Beaumont is an excellent program and was one of my top choices when I was applying. It is unique in that it is an average hospital with some truly exceptional departments like Rad Onc, Cards and Retina. Beaumont have been pioneers in both Brachtherapy and IGRT. Also, their faculty are well represented in national meetings both in terms of expertise and # of publications. They are also able to integrate their residents well into their well-oiled clinical research engine.

Anecdotally, I've heard stories of Beaumont residents absolutely rocking oral boards (sometimes from the examiners themselves).

 

[Mandelin Rain]

For a community hospital, I believe that the radiation training available at Beaumont is very adequate. The staff is well published, however, the departmental focus on HDR brachytherapy is largely not adaptable to the field as a whole.

The main concern is this hospital's location between two NCI designated centers of cancer care excellence being the University of Michigan and Karmanos Cancer Center at Wayne State University. Typically, community centers such as Beaumont will not experience the breadth nor volume of cases that residents fortunate enough to train at a larger cancer center would encounter on a daily basis.

It is nice to hear that those currently in the program are satisfied with the training that they receive. In the end, that is a large part of what matters for your four years of residency.

 

[deleted4401]

Sounds like someone with no real understanding of Beaumont. It is the one of the largest inpatient hospitals (it was the largest, within the last few years) in the country (private or academic), and volume/numbers are not an issue, except perhaps with peds. It is an extremely busy and comprehensive cancer center, and I think in the metro-area, probably more recognized than Karmanos. Throughout the state, although some prefer going to UMichigan, for most in Metro Detroit, Beaumont is a considered top-notch facility. It's now associated with a brand new medical school in Oakland County.

If it was in Chicago or something, it would be considered one of the top programs in the country.

Disclosure: fine, I was a candy-striper there in the mid 1990s, but it really is a great place.

For a community hospital, I believe that the
radiation training available at Beaumont is very adequate. The staff is well published, however, the departmental focus on HDR brachytherapy is largely not adaptable to the field as a whole.

The main concern is this hospital's location between two NCI designated centers of cancer care excellence being the University of Michigan and Karmanos Cancer Center at Wayne State University. Typically, community centers such as Beaumont will not experience the breadth nor volume of cases that residents fortunate enough to train at a larger cancer center would encounter on a daily basis.

It is nice to hear that those currently in the program are satisfied with the training that they receive. In the end, that is a large part of what matters for your four years of residency.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

In no way did I mean for "adequate" to be taken in the pejorative. Please don't take it as such.

SRS and GammaKnife overlap a bit. IGRT is simply standard of care for several disease sites. While a few vocal centers do publish HDR results, the majority of patients treated on B-39 have been treated with the external beam option. This speaks to my point regarding adaptability of this technique for the masses; particularly Beaumont favorites multi-catheter APBI or limited fraction prostate HDR. My understanding is that Beaumont's planned proton facility fell through midway. That is a shame, as it would have offered a different approach novel in the area. The nearest center must be Indiana, correct?

Rankings by the National Cancer Institute should ideally move people more than those of this board. Additionally, I see that Beaumont is losing it's association with an established medical school, to start their own private one which struck me as odd. A cursory (Google) glance at tution relative to the University of Michigan may tell part of the story.

Again, this is not meant to be quarrelsome, rather a different viewpoint from a far removed (and admittedly ignorant) perspective. I'd encourage applicants to visit as many programs as possible to better understand what they are looking for in a residency. I would think that a good indicator IS resident satisifaction.

 

[Red Wings]

Do you know what happened to protons at Beaumont Wagy27 (or anyone else)? I don't want to sidetrack the thread into the merits of particle based therapy but was just curious if there was any chance the project would be restarted?

Thanks for all the information about the program everyone. It is good to hear that in rad onc circles it isn't beauwhat? or beauwhere?

 

[Mandelin Rain]

As you have admitted you are far removed...I would caution you on making assumptions without the facts.

1. Beaumont is starting a medical school with Oakland University with the first class enrolling this fall. It did not lose it's association with Wayne but chose to end it after it started the med school.

2. What do NCI rankings really tell you about the quality of the rad onc program? Do they tell you about the quality of the didactics, physics/biology, mentorship availability, etc? Experience with programs far outweighs esoteric NCI rankings based on things like the number of Phase I trials, and grant money.

3. When I talked about the focuses, I was implying GK for intracranial and SRS for extracranial (Lung, Spine, Prostate, etc.). not sure if you are aware but when I said IGRT was a focus I was talking about the development of the the CBCT and the physics department here which is on the forefront of new IGRT techniques. As for HDR, you are correct around 70% are treated with quad; however, I would argue more than a few vocal centers use HDR. In my experience HDR is used in academics and private practice, from small groups to huge multi-state groups. It goes beyond interstitial APBI to include balloon-based APBI, head and neck brachy, gyn brachy (far more convenient than LDR unless you like being isolated in a hospital bed for a few days), sarcoma, prostate, etc. Not sure whether you're a student, resident, fellow or attending and what your experience with Beaumont is but it seems you don't know much about our program.

There is no need to be defensive at a differing opinion.

1. In a time of a national overabundance of medical schools, the motivations behind anyone opening a brand new medical school should be questioned. Again, my cynical side feels that the tuition charged may have something to do with those motivations. I guess, this just makes me question the overall direction of the institution in terms of serving academia vs. bottom line.

2. I agree that NCI designation does not necessarily indicate much about the quality of a radiation oncology program, if one assumes that radiation oncology is learned in a bubble of leaded walls. It more speaks to the quality if the institution top to bottom. Clinical radiation oncology is not incredibly difficult to learn. To point,it was historically completed in one less year than it's current form. Clinical physicians in our field should seek excellence via the incorporation of comprehensive multidisciplinary practice. For those who aspire to be a Clinician Scientist, perhaps "esoteric" matters such as Phase I development and grant procurement DO in fact matter.

3. I think you have confused SRS with SBRT.

 

[seper]

Starting a new medschool is a smart move - numerous hospitals all over the country are scrambling to do the same.
Beaumont is a top-notch residency that also demands a lot of hard work. It was near the top of my rank list but I didn't match

 

[Mandelin Rain]

I appreciate that you are happy with your residency which is of paramount importance.

Again, I encourage the opening poster to explore all the options available to him or her, rather than be swayed by statements such as, "if program X was in city Y, it would be in the top Z," that I have come across with some regularity in my short time perusing this board.

I'll leave it at that.

 

[1RadOnc]

I would agree with the thought that NCI rankings are not the best indicator for any one given department within an institution as some centers may have top notch Surg Onc, Medonc, or Radonc but with lesser regarded collaborative departments in terms of reputation, strength of departmental faculty, or strength of training program. Beaumont is certainly one example of this as it is regarded by a large majority of radonc faculty, residents, and anyone in the know of radiation oncology (save the former poster Mandelin Rain) as one of the top notch radiation oncology programs in the country. Even simply on this forum the reputation of Beaumont’s radonc dept is reflected with contributions from trainees, faculty, and private practicioners across the country. On the flip side there are NCI designated institutions with less than highly esteemed radonc departments and training programs just as well.

 

[hot sauce]

I appreciate that you are happy with your residency which is of paramount importance.

Again, I encourage the opening poster to explore all the options available to him or her, rather than be swayed by statements such as, "if program X was in city Y, it would be in the top Z," that I have come across with some regularity in my short time perusing this board.

I'll leave it at that.

Hopefully everyone knows not to make their rank list based solely on rankings or opinions on SDN but getting feedback about a program can help people. There isn't a huge amount of information out there on some programs (that I am aware of) and if you are trying to decide where to do an away the advice on this board can be worth factoring into the equation.

It would be helpful to know where you are coming from. I understand people value their privacy on the internet but it does help to know if you are a med student, resident, or attending and if you have any direct interaction with Beaumont or their faculty. Not that your opinion is invalid either way but it just helps put it in context.

 

[Kevin Malone]

Not to sidetrack the conversation, but does anyone have any information regarding the other two programs in-state, namely Henry Ford and Wayne State/DMC? There are some old reviews from a few years back, but if I'm not mistaken, both have had some changes in leadership and staff. I would be curious to know what current residents or interviewees at those programs have to say.

For what its worth, I, too, have heard nothing but good things about the training at Beaumont...

 

[radiaterMike]

hot sauce has it right. Reputation is very subjective, and residents can be well-trained at any ACGME accredited program. There are residents from 'top' programs who squeak by and residents from 'mid/low' tier programs who excel. Of course how you gauge success is also subjective (i.e. board scores, in-service scores, publications, protocol development, seed grants ...). Patient care is probably the most important factor, and aside from gross ineptitude or personality disorder is hard to gauge. In choosing where to apply, interview and rank, applicants have to make choices on where they see themselves being happy and successful.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

The current situation at Beaumont is a good reason why I suggested that prospective residents seek an NCI designated cancer center. You are somewhat insulated from your private referring doctors leaving and the need for half your staff, including the most well published members, to flee for greener pastures.

 

[stankem]

The current situation at Beaumont is a good reason why I suggested that prospective residents seek an NCI designated cancer center. You are somewhat insulated from your private referring doctors leaving and the need for half your staff, including the most well published members, to flee for greener pastures.

que?

 

[Gfunk6]

Mass faculty migration is certainly not limited to non-NCI-designated cancer centers. In past years Rad Onc programs of all stripes have been decimated by faculty exodus.

 

[JackieG]

The current situation at Beaumont is a good reason why I suggested that prospective residents seek an NCI designated cancer center. You are somewhat insulated from your private referring doctors leaving and the need for half your staff, including the most well published members, to flee for greener pastures.

what happened?? did the department loose all of their faculty? please elaborate

 

[deleted4401]

It's a funny axe to grind ... I'm not sure why the haterade about Beaumont from MR. So many places lose faculty and referring physicians. I've never heard it being about NCI vs non-NCI.
-S

 

[JackieG]

It's a funny axe to grind ... I'm not sure why the haterade about Beaumont from MR. So many places lose faculty and referring physicians. I've never heard it being about NCI vs non-NCI.
-S

So what happened? Beaumont lost all of their faculty? Someone tell me what's going on

 

[Gfunk6]

Yeah seriously dude, if you are going to do a "drive by" of a program during application season the least you could do is substantiate your claim.

One of my colleagues is a Beaumont grad and the only thing he heard is that Dr. Brabbins was probably going to retire in a year or two, but this has been known for some time.

 

[ChasingtheCurve]

At least three senior faculty members leaving for 21st century oncology effective immediately and the chair resigning as soon as his on treats complete. R.I.P. Beaumont...

 

[Houston500]

The current situation at Beaumont is a good reason why I suggested that prospective residents seek an NCI designated cancer center. You are somewhat insulated from your private referring doctors leaving and the need for half your staff, including the most well published members, to flee for greener pastures.

Fox Chase and UC Davis also experienced mass exodus of faculty, including many of the senior staff, in the recent past. Sounds very familiar, but oh wait, they are NCI designated cancer centers. Your statement makes you sound very green.....

 

[deleted4401]

That they are leaving is one thing ... That they are leaving for 21st Century Oncology is completely another.
-S

 

[hot sauce]

That they are leaving is one thing ... That they are leaving for 21st Century Oncology is completely another.
-S

Could you please expound on that for those of us that are new to the field?

 

[Houston500]

That they are leaving is one thing ... That they are leaving for 21st Century Oncology is completely another.
-S

Sad but True.

When you allow corporate practice of medicine, you put the MDs at risk of getting screwed by the hospital who employs them and then in turn they defect to the lesser of the two Evils.....

 

[medgator]

Could you please expound on that for those of us that are new to the field?

I think he is making a comment regarding where they decided to join after leaving Beaumont. Beaumont is a powerhouse rad onc dept in a respected community hospital. They are now leaving for a private practice entity that is not in the same academic plane.

I don't think he would have said that if those faculty members were departing for U Penn, MDACC, MSK etc.

 

[Gfunk6]

I think he is making a comment regarding where they decided to join after leaving Beaumont. Beaumont is a powerhouse rad onc dept in a respected community hospital. They are now leaving for a private practice entity that is not in the same academic plane.

I don't think he would have said that if those faculty members were departing for U Penn, MDACC, MSK etc.

To add to medgator's post, 21st Century Oncology is a corporation which has built state-of-the-art Radiation Oncology facilities all around the country (highest concentration probably in Florida). Generally, new docs are salaried with productivity bonuses. After a vesting period, docs can "buy in" to their facility to get a share of the technical fees.

However, given the vast knowledge, experience, clinical expertise, and existing patient base that Beaumont Rad Oncs would bring I suspect they negotiated much more favorable terms.

Also, my colleague confirmed that at least four faculty are planning to leave though the precise circumstances were unclear.

 

[deleted4401]

Yeah, that's what I was sort of getting it ... 21st Century is, at best, looked at with a wary eye and at worst, somewhat despised. I don't know much about them, but they tried to compete with a few of our centers and didn't end up making it in those markets. I'm not sure about their quality, but one of our field's leaders is their director, Dr. Paul Wallner, and he is a stand-up guy.

Perhaps they are making a move to become an academically minded corporate practice by absorbing faculty from academic institutions. I don't disagree that a lot of community-based practices could benefit from world-class academic minds practicing there instead of the ivory tower.

-S

 

[radiaterMike]

In their (21st century oncology) defense they do put patients on protocols, some of which are exclusive to their practice, and they have single handedly done more to protect the field (i.e. lobby against urology owned rad. onc practices, lobby for appropriate CMS reimbursement, etc) than ASTRO.

They are not well-liked, since (like urorads) they try to push out competition by buying practices, buying certificates of need for LINACs, etc., and they have a reputation of being very high volume centers that push patients through like cattle (can't really speak to this though). They were once a publicly traded company (not sure if they still are).

Not sure what happened with Beaumont- kind of odd.

 

[seper]

Any info on where Dr. M. is heading?
Any academic dept. would benefit form having him immensely.
​

 

[Gfunk6]

Here is the official news article.

It confirms five Rad Oncs are leaving including Martinez, Vinci, Antonucci, Ghilezan and (? maybe) Kestin.

My deepest condolences to the residents; I sincerely hope that you are able to recruit quality faculty soon to replace those who have left.

 

[deleted4401]

On a side note, I presume if anyone wants a job in southeast Michigan, there appears to be a few job openings

The article makes it seem like something strange was going to happen. The doctors were expecting the hospital to okay a partnership with 21st Century, and when they decided against it, the doctors bounced. I'm sure it was more nuanced than that. Those guys seemed like reasonable guys...

-S

 

[beam on]

Are they that reasonable that they would leave world of academia and research and choose for profit private institution with not a good reputation for patient care.
And to top it all that administration at the hospital would allow them to walk away......

 

[JackieG]

so what do you think will happen to this years residency program and applicants??

 

[medgator]

The current situation at Beaumont is a good reason why I suggested that prospective residents seek an NCI designated cancer center. You are somewhat insulated from your private referring doctors leaving and the need for half your staff, including the most well published members, to flee for greener pastures.

On a side note, I presume if anyone wants a job in southeast Michigan, there appears to be a few job openings

The article makes it seem like something strange was going to happen. The doctors were expecting the hospital to okay a partnership with 21st Century, and when they decided against it, the doctors bounced. I'm sure it was more nuanced than that. Those guys seemed like reasonable guys...

-S

I wonder if it has to do with a loss of patient base/referrals as alluded to by Mandelin Rain's post above.

 

[Houston500]

I wonder if it has to do with a loss of patient base/referrals as alluded to by Mandelin Rain's post above.

Beaumont is a large tertiary hospital with a huge referral base. As the article indicated, Beaumont performed over 140K treatments/procedures last year, so I doubt they are bleeding out. The doctors are salaried employees, so it doesn't matter if each doctor has 7 or 40 patients on treatment. Let's just say I don't think they left because of fear.....

 

[thesauce]

Beaumont is a large tertiary hospital with a huge referral base. As the article indicated, Beaumont performed over 140K treatments/procedures last year, so I doubt they are bleeding out. The doctors are salaried employees, so it doesn't matter if each doctor has 7 or 40 patients on treatment. Let's just say I don't think they left because of fear.....

Maybe not to the attendings, but to the residents it certainly does. It may be difficult to support that size of residency program with the 8 staff remaining (according to the article 5 of 13 are leaving).

With 12 residents, and 3 on research at a given time, I suppose you can pair each resident up with one attending and have 1 at a satellite site (assuming the 13-member staff wasn't including physicians at these sites). I'm not sure if the volume would be sufficient with that setup.

It's really too bad for the residents (a great group of guys/girls). However, I doubt it would be difficult to recruit new faculty to the institution as it does have a solid reputation, established referral base, and great technology. It will be interesting to see where things go from here.

I wish everyone involved the best.

 

[subatomicdoc]

Here is the official news article.

It confirms five Rad Oncs are leaving including Martinez, Vinci, Antonucci, Ghilezan and (? maybe) Kestin.

My deepest condolences to the residents; I sincerely hope that you are able to recruit quality faculty soon to replace those who have left.

From what little I know, there should be good leadership remaining that can step into the breach. I also hope for the current and prospective residents already matched that other quality docs see this as an opportunity and fill the hole quickly.

If in fact the five are leaving for 21st Century, that may have a serious chilling effect for developing any other relationships with other hospitals with residency programs. Who wants to do business with an entity that may gut your cancer program?