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Anyone have a good medical source on how this type of vaccine works? Physician level, but maybe not immunologist level? But probably will.
No. I would want it given to my elderly parents and other elderly/vulnerable people with comorbid conditions. But i would not want it given to my kid or other kids or healthy young folks until longer term safety is completely proven.
No. I would want it given to my elderly parents and other elderly/vulnerable people with comorbid conditions. But i would not want it given to my kid or other kids or healthy young folks until longer term safety is completely proven.
Anyone have a good medical source on how this type of vaccine works? Physician level, but maybe not immunologist level? But probably will.
I agree with the sentiment and I would add that front line essential workers should also be prioritized - not just for their protection but also to protect the high risk individuals that they have to come into contact with.Let's focus on giving it to the elderly and high risk patients first before vaccinating young people and children with virtually no risk. Initially doses will be limited and should go to those who need them.
I understand the sentiment as well.I agree with the sentiment and I would add that front line essential workers should also be prioritized - not just for their protection but also to protect the high risk individuals that they have to come into contact with.
Yeah - Notably, to get enrolled in the vaccine trial you had to sign an agreement that you wouldn't conceive a child during the trial.I understand the sentiment as well.
Since I’m certain most health care providers will happily take the mRNA vaccine, there will only be a small minority of who feel uneasy about receiving an mRNA vaccine (which as of now all the major vaccine candidates are except novavax). So having a large amount of providers voluntarily receive the vaccine will be more than enough to significantly reduce the spread of this plague. Health care workers desiring the mRNA tech should definitely be prioritized first, along with elderly and others at risk such as obese individuals.
It is also entirely appropriate for some providers to decline an mRNA vaccine. For example, a pregnant physician or a physician trying to conceive is justified in declining this vaccine, most definitely.
It is also entirely appropriate for some providers to decline an mRNA vaccine. For example, a pregnant physician or a physician trying to conceive is justified in declining this vaccine, most definitely.
Physician trying to conceive here! Been deciding between waiting another month or two so we both get the vaccine before trying again or saying no to the vaccine completely. Being a little bit older complicated this decision a lot.
Has there been anything to suggest the vaccine itself causes problems when trying to conceive? I know it won’t be studied in pregnancy for a while.
Yeah - Notably, to get enrolled in the vaccine trial you had to sign an agreement that you wouldn't conceive a child during the trial.
Physician trying to conceive here! Been deciding between waiting another month or two so we both get the vaccine before trying again or saying no to the vaccine completely. Being a little bit older complicated this decision a lot.
Has there been anything to suggest the vaccine itself causes problems when trying to conceive? I know it won’t be studied in pregnancy for a while.
What's the benefit to getting it this year if you've already had COVID? Maybe next year if there's a different strain, or if immunity doesn't last that long to this one.Maybe I'm a little late to the party...
But my understanding is that the vaccine (both Pfizer and Moderna) have shown to be safe in clinical trials. What is the hesitation? mRNA vaccines in particular have more side effects?
Also, I thought the vaccine was way more than 50% effective...
I already had COVID. I doubt I will be in line first to get it, because I do think other health care workers and high risk groups who have not had COVID should be prioritized over me, but I do see myself getting it at some point.
I'm also in a 2 year trial (Pfizer) and I got the impression that I was committing to use contraception during viably conceptual intercourse.That’s not true. At least not in the trial I’m in. They did ask about birth control, but there was no wording about me agreeing to not try to conceive while in the trial. They do regular check ins and also told me to tell them of any health updates such as changes in birth control, medications or pregnancy.
The trial I’m in runs for 2 years and I do have plans to try to conceive before the next 2 years is up.
The reason for hesitation is the same reason for excitement; mRNA vaccines and genomics are essentially brand new in America. There are like two mRNA vaccines I know of off the top of my head, Dengue vax and an Ebola one. The dengue vaccine was controversial in the Philippines because of safety concerns from the people there, but I don’t know what the full story was yet.Maybe I'm a little late to the party...
But my understanding is that the vaccine (both Pfizer and Moderna) have shown to be safe in clinical trials. What is the hesitation? mRNA vaccines in particular have more side effects?
Also, I thought the vaccine was way more than 50% effective...
I already had COVID. I doubt I will be in line first to get it, because I do think other health care workers and high risk groups who have not had COVID should be prioritized over me, but I do see myself getting it at some point.
Maybe I'm a little late to the party...
But my understanding is that the vaccine (both Pfizer and Moderna) have shown to be safe in clinical trials. What is the hesitation? mRNA vaccines in particular have more side effects?
Also, I thought the vaccine was way more than 50% effective...
I already had COVID. I doubt I will be in line first to get it, because I do think other health care workers and high risk groups who have not had COVID should be prioritized over me, but I do see myself getting it at some point.
I agree about kids. They aren't a big part of the trials (if at all, I don't know) plus they almost universally get a super mild case.It’s incredinaive to believe anything is truly safe with less than even a year of data or any long term analysis.
example:
“The study mines data from three previous clinical trials. In a post-hoc analysis...Children who were dengue-naive at the time of vaccination were more likely to suffer severe dengue than their dengue-positive peers. Among dengue-seronegative participants aged 2 to 16 years, the cumulative 5-year incidence of hospitalization for lab-confirmed dengue was 3.06% among vaccine recipients and 1.87% among controls, a hazard ratio (vaccine vs. control) of 1.75 (95% confidence interval [CI], 1.14 to 2.70).”
These three clinical trials took place in 2012, 2014, 2015. The re-analysis was done in 2018. That is SIX YEARS to determine ultimate safety profile of the vaccine.
Vaccine trial shows more hospitalizations for dengue-naive kids
www.cidrap.umn.edu
I reiterate my view that any covid vaccine developed must be limited to high risk/vulnerable/elderly patients and not given to healthy young people or children until long term efficacy and safety is fully proven
If this were a traditional vaccine I would easily agree. I’m fully vaccinated and on board with the whole vaccine schedule for myself and my family.I agree about kids. They aren't a big part of the trials (if at all, I don't know) plus they almost universally get a super mild case.
But young adults, no reason not to.
I would not.What about preggos? Would you give it to a loved one who is pregnant?
The issue is that the risk is still there of actually getting COVID if you don't get vaccinated.
Three arms, four ears, and unremitting diarrhea?Physician trying to conceive here! Been deciding between waiting another month or two so we both get the vaccine before trying again or saying no to the vaccine completely. Being a little bit older complicated this decision a lot.
Has there been anything to suggest the vaccine itself causes problems when trying to conceive? I know it won’t be studied in pregnancy for a while.
You care to elaborate on that last point?I would not.
if pregnant and you do not vaccinate:
-Risk of getting covid
-Pregnancy only lasts 9 months
if pregnant and vaccinate:
-Risk of vaccine adverse effects even past pregnancy too
-Risk of still getting covid anyway
-Risk of an even more severe covid infection if contracted
You care to elaborate on that last point?
Not talking about the UK's vaccine. This discussion is about the mRNA vaccines. mRNA vaccines don't use an adjuvant nor are they dead viruses. they are however wrapped in liposomes which is how they get into the human cell. There is a question as to if the liposomes can trigger an autoimmune reaction.I’ve said it before and will say it again, while I respect the cautious sentiment noted above, I will take the unknown side effects of what is functionally a dead virus vaccine over the unknown side effects of the actual virus any day of the week. There are definitely people who aren’t dead who suffer long term sequelae, and we may discover significant cardiomyopathy, autoimmune responses and pulmonary responses down the line as result of these infections today.
The only component not present in the actual virus that should be present in the vaccine is the adjuvants, and they. usually use ones that have been tested to death and get to the gras label.
I see little advantage to inevitably catching covid and having the same viral proteins produced in an uncontrolled fashion vs getting a vaccine that does the same without the Russian roulette (admittedly with many chambers) of the actual infection.
just to clarify, the AZ vaccine is not the same science as the common flu vaccine.No nothing to indicate that. There’s also the astra Zeneca trial which essentially uses the same science as the flu vaccine. It’ll likely get approved shortly as well.
Acog will likely make a statement once they’re all approved and from info I know from people on committees they’re divided on what their official stance will be but most of the worry is in regards to the unknown in the 1st trimester.
A potential hesitation is related to Emergency Use Authorizations based on interim analyses of industry sponsored studies on experimental vaccines pushed through at "Warp Speed." Short term side effect profiles look promising. No knowledge about long term, auto immune issues, etc.Maybe I'm a little late to the party...
But my understanding is that the vaccine (both Pfizer and Moderna) have shown to be safe in clinical trials. What is the hesitation? mRNA vaccines in particular have more side effects?
Also, I thought the vaccine was way more than 50% effective...
I already had COVID. I doubt I will be in line first to get it, because I do think other health care workers and high risk groups who have not had COVID should be prioritized over me, but I do see myself getting it at some point.
You care to elaborate on that last point?
That's fair, has this ever been noted in any other vaccine previously?As I had pointed in an example above already. This is an unknown but possible risk to be considered for a new vaccine of any kind.
Dengue vaccine example:
“The study mines data from three previous clinical trials. In a post-hoc analysis...Children who were dengue-naive at the time of vaccination were more likely to suffer severe dengue than their dengue-positive peers. Among dengue-seronegative participants aged 2 to 16 years, the cumulative 5-year incidence of hospitalization for lab-confirmed dengue was 3.06% among vaccine recipients and 1.87% among controls, a hazard ratio (vaccine vs. control) of 1.75 (95% confidence interval [CI], 1.14 to 2.70).”
And it might end up similar to flu vaccine and GB: yes the vaccine can cause it but it does so at a lower rate than an influenza infection does.At least in the short term there hasn't been any autoimmune reactions identified, but with more widescale administration and longer observation time (2-3 years), it makes me wonder if anything will come of it. If people start developing autoimmune disorders, it may be 5-10 years before they are linked to the vaccine if that is the cause.
Regardless, I think I'm high risk enough of both contracting it as well as having a prolonged course/rough outcome that getting the vaccine is more beneficial to me than skipping it.
just to clarify, the AZ vaccine is not the same science as the common flu vaccine.
Flu vaccine = grow influenza in an egg. then inactivate and use the inactivated virus as vaccine. there are other versions but this is most common.
AZ = clone spike protein into a castrated adenovirus. then use the adenovirus as the vaccine. btw, while this strategy has been around for decades there are no vaccines that actually do use this techniqe.
As I had pointed in an example above already. This is an unknown but possible risk to be considered for a new vaccine of any kind.
Dengue vaccine example:
“The study mines data from three previous clinical trials. In a post-hoc analysis...Children who were dengue-naive at the time of vaccination were more likely to suffer severe dengue than their dengue-positive peers. Among dengue-seronegative participants aged 2 to 16 years, the cumulative 5-year incidence of hospitalization for lab-confirmed dengue was 3.06% among vaccine recipients and 1.87% among controls, a hazard ratio (vaccine vs. control) of 1.75 (95% confidence interval [CI], 1.14 to 2.70).”
That’s not true. At least not in the trial I’m in. They did ask about birth control, but there was no wording about me agreeing to not try to conceive while in the trial. They do regular check ins and also told me to tell them of any health updates such as changes in birth control, medications or pregnancy.
The trial I’m in runs for 2 years and I do have plans to try to conceive before the next 2 years is up.
I'm also in a 2 year trial (Pfizer) and I got the impression that I was committing to use contraception during viably conceptual intercourse.
That said - I'm not a lawyer, and you probably have read the wording more carefully than I did. I may have misinterpreted what I was signing.
Thank you for the information, I didn’t know that.I'm in the Moderna trial, and we are 100% required to be using birth control and avoiding pregnancythroughout the duration of the study.Not sure if the same is true for male participants but it's absolutely true for female participants.
Edit: Actually just went to check the protocol. Might not be required for the full 2 years but contraception is definitely required for at least 3 months post injection, and pregnancy is listed as a "possible reason for withdrawal", though they will continue to follow patients who report pregnancy for safety outcome data
Totally OT, but there's such a great joke here that I wonder if the lawyers left it in the consent form on purpose.Edit: Actually just went to check the protocol. Might not be required for the full 2 years but contraception is definitely required for at least 3 months post injection, and pregnancy is listed as a "possible reason for withdrawal", though they will continue to follow patients who report pregnancy for safety outcome data
At least in the short term there hasn't been any autoimmune reactions identified, but with more widescale administration and longer observation time (2-3 years), it makes me wonder if anything will come of it. If people start developing autoimmune disorders, it may be 5-10 years before they are linked to the vaccine if that is the cause.
Regardless, I think I'm high risk enough of both contracting it as well as having a prolonged course/rough outcome that getting the vaccine is more beneficial to me than skipping it.
There were two cases of possible autoimmune pathology in the trials using the mRNA vaccines. One person developed MS, another person developed transverse myelitis. I think both were deemed not to be caused by the vaccine, although how anyone can tell is beyond me.
I danced a happy dance when I heard Purdue Pharma lost the oxycontin lawsuit, so I'm no fan of big pharma. But doesn't the fact that @thegenius knows about it suggest they haven't hid this data?Interesting. I must admit I haven't read the actual data. Perhaps I should instead of just blindly saying I need it. Then again, why should we doubt either of the drug companies since they've never hidden data before.
I danced a happy dance when I heard Purdue Pharma lost the oxycontin lawsuit, so I'm no fan of big pharma. But doesn't the fact that @thegenius knows about it suggest they haven't hid this data?
Have they released everything? Did Pfizer release everything about cox-2 inhibitors or did it take a while before it came to light? My point was we know what they have released, but who knows what they haven't released.
I'm in the Moderna trial, and we are 100% required to be using birth control and avoiding pregnancythroughout the duration of the study.Not sure if the same is true for male participants but it's absolutely true for female participants.
Edit: Actually just went to check the protocol. Might not be required for the full 2 years but contraception is definitely required for at least 3 months post injection, and pregnancy is listed as a "possible reason for withdrawal", though they will continue to follow patients who report pregnancy for safety outcome data